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TSA, security technology, and opting out

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Victoria Hughes

TSA, security technology, and opting out

From Bruce Schneier

link to great blog post, comprehensive with lots of links, useful for all who travel by air-

Schneier on Security

first few paragraphs-

"TSA Backscatter X-ray Backlash

Things are happening so fast that I don't know if I should bother. But here are some links and observations.

The head of the Allied Pilots Association is telling its members to avoid both the full body scanners and the patdowns.

This first-hand report, from a man who refused to fly rather than subject himself to a full-body scan or an enhanced patdown, has been making the rounds. (The TSA is now investigating him.) It reminds me of Penn Jillette's story from 2002.

A woman has a horrific story of opting-out of the full body scanners. More stories: this one about the TSA patting down a screaming toddler. And here's Dave Barry's encounter (also this NPR interview)......

Yesterday, the TSA administrator John Pistole was grilled by the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee on full-body scanners. Rep. Ron Paul introduced a bill to ban them. (His floor speech is here.) I'm one of the plaintiffs in a lawsuit to ban them.

Book for kids: My First Cavity Search. Cover seen at at TSA checkpoint.

Michael Chertoff, former Department of Homeland Security secretary, has been touting the full-body scanners, while at the same time maintaining a financial interest in the company that makes them."

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

Supposedly it is easier to manage groups in the grip of fear than groups of marijuana smokers.

In fact I think the latter is an oxymoron. In order to get normal human beings to accept being treated like animals we have to introduce excessive amounts of fear and an icon for that fear. This practice works because we are a mindless herd animal even if no one likes the description.

After recently objecting to a body search in Toronto and being as sarcastic as legally possible some passengers suggested that I was frightening them by objecting to the intrusion. That was interesting; the fear quotient was high enough that members of “The Group” were willing to attack each other in the absence of a clearly identifiable enemy. My threatening action was simply to question the security guard as to whether stripping naked in the line up would make him feel better, very loudly!. I then asked the crowd if they would feel safer after seeing me publicly naked.

That did not amuse anyone, and sensing my over eagerness to strip my aging carcass in public was deemed very offensive while a probe up my nether regions was perfectly acceptable?

My brother, who had to endure my theatrics, later suggested that if Alcohol was not recommended for anyone required to think or operate machinery, then we should have found ways to prohibit the incitement of fear as even more threatening to public safety. Yet we still protest that being in a state of fear excuses all our inconsiderate actions. Personally no one should ever make decisions of any significance if their minds are obscured by phantom fears. Traveling is not as much fun as it used to be.

We live in a new society where it is normal to dehumanize everybody. We talk about human rights all the time but in fact those few rights are about all that we have left to distinguish us from inanimate things. We now have fewer rights than at any time in the history of mankind. Perhaps that is why we try so hard to guarantee the few that remain to us in Legal Proceedings.

All men are assumed to be guilty and attempting to prove otherwise makes us appear even guiltier. This is exactly as life under a totalitarian regime has been described.

On another note Bulgakov’s “Heart of a Dog” has been set to music and opens in London. Interesting that after all the talk of fiction, that our society is reconsidering Stalin’s Regime with some nostalgia. Believe me in the depth of the darkest days of Hitler and Stalin, no one strip searched babies and Nuns or cranky old men.

In some respects this excess of caution is an experiment to determine if humanity has any remaining vestiges of personal dignity. It appears that we have none by accepting willingly being treated like objects and being happy complying with authorities, we deserve no better.

If we do not object then we deserve what we get. Now I understand how the Jews walked into the death camps without protest. That always struck me as out of character. Now our entire society is incapable of protest. The psychology of human degradation is very intriguing.

Once upon a time people stripped naked and chained themselves to railings in Trafalgar square protesting Nuclear weapons deployment in Britain. Public nakedness has been a widely accepted form of public protest.

Nothing will change until a bus load of retirees strips naked for a junket to Las Vegas.

I will lead the charge of the bare-assed geezers. Is it still acceptable if I keep my cane? I’d feel naked without it.

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky

Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology)

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.

Winnipeg, Manitoba

CANADA R2J 3R2

(204) 2548321 Phone/Fax

[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Victoria Hughes
Sent: November 20, 2010 4:20 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group; [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] TSA, security technology, and opting out

From Bruce Schneier

link to great blog post, comprehensive with lots of links, useful for all who travel by air-

Schneier on Security

first few paragraphs-

"TSA Backscatter X-ray Backlash

Things are happening so fast that I don't know if I should bother. But here are some links and observations.

The head of the Allied Pilots Association is telling its members to avoid both the full body scanners and the patdowns.

Book for kids: My First Cavity Search. Cover seen at at TSA checkpoint.

Michael Chertoff, former Department of Homeland Security secretary, has been touting the full-body scanners, while at the same time maintaining a financial interest in the company that makes them."

Victoria Hughes

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

On Nov 20, 2010, at 5:39 PM, Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky wrote:

If we do not object then we deserve what we get.

Yup.

Used to be a bumper sticker "Silence is Consent".

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

This works especially well for politics. I think we deserve Sarah Palin as president. Nation of idiots, and all that...

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Nov 20, 2010, at 5:39 PM, Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky wrote:

If we do not object then we deserve what we get.

Yup.
Used to be a bumper sticker "Silence is Consent".

Victoria Hughes

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

I had just come to the same conclusion.

If that's what they want, okay, but I am out of here.

On Nov 20, 2010, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

This works especially well for politics. I think we deserve Sarah Palin as president. Nation of idiots, and all that...

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Nov 20, 2010, at 5:39 PM, Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky wrote:

If we do not object then we deserve what we get.

Yup.
Used to be a bumper sticker "Silence is Consent".

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

Tory Hughes

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Tory Hughes facebook

------------------------------------

Steve Smith

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

In reply to this post by Vladimyr Burachynsky

Vlad -

Once again, you are *my hero* and that is saying a bit!

After recently objecting to a body search in Toronto and being as sarcastic as legally possible some passengers suggested that I was frightening them by objecting to the intrusion. That was interesting; the fear quotient was high enough that members of “The Group” were willing to attack each other in the absence of a clearly identifiable enemy. My threatening action was simply to question the security guard as to whether stripping naked in the line up would make him feel better, very loudly!. I then asked the crowd if they would feel safer after seeing me publicly naked.

That did not amuse anyone, and sensing my over eagerness to strip my aging carcass in public was deemed very offensive while a probe up my nether regions was perfectly acceptable?

I've suggested many times, that from now on, I should enter TSA security wearing absolutely nothing but a Speedo... It would be an act of what I call *white whale watching* for the other sad passengers who had to witness this. Maybe we could start a fad, a performance art practice, street theater of sorts if you will!

The other thought I've had is each time I come to the airport, to bring a large bag filled with the leftover spices and other foodstuffs in my kitchen which are no longer interesting, viable or useful... and the same for those of you with overflowing medicine cabinets... just take them out of the bag one by one... "this? this 2 oz of crusty peanut butter from a 16 oz jar... I can't take *that* on? Ok, so here, just put it in the bin then! " "And this near empty bottle of virgin olive oil with a crust of hardened oil on the outside, faded label, I can't take that on either? OK! here right into the bin!" "Now, what else do we have here... oh! The scary tabasco... yes... definitely *right* into the bin!" 15 mins later, your cupboard is empty, their bin is full!

For the really adventurous, I think we have a new plan for disposing of unwanted cans of paint, near empty bottles of motor oil, etc.! "Oh my! you mean I can't take this on the plane?". Having just trimmed hundreds of square inches of corrugated steel off my roof as I layed it down, I have fascinating scraps that *all* look much more deadly than a box-cutter. "What? I was taking this to my grand-daughter as a toy... how do you mean I can't take this on the plane? Ok... YOU take it then! Maybe you should be wearing gloves, you know.. sharp edges and all!"

I highly recommend the following from an early cover of "Steampunk Magazine"... I'm *still* rolling in hilarity over this!

My brother, who had to endure my theatrics, later suggested that if Alcohol was not recommended for anyone required to think or operate machinery, then we should have found ways to prohibit the incitement of fear as even more threatening to public safety. Yet we still protest that being in a state of fear excuses all our inconsiderate actions. Personally no one should ever make decisions of any significance if their minds are obscured by phantom fears. Traveling is not as much fun as it used to be.

And yes! We are not *inciting* fear, we are helping to release the fear that the bastards (of all genders) have chosen to instill in us at any price. Why? I'm not sure, though my conspiratorial alternate personality believes it is to *control* us... other personalities suspect it is just because "they can"... odd, trivial power trips with no real goal in mind... a good reason to hire the undereducated, the bored, the chronically frightened, the disenfranchised. They naturally gravitate to the very same abuses they have suffered themselves in their everyday lives... "We do *that* which we have had done to us!" The cycle of abuse...

We live in a new society where it is normal to dehumanize everybody.

This is not new, we do it over and over again... but I get your point, it is new relative to relatively recent history (in this country).

We talk about human rights all the time but in fact those few rights are about all that we have left to distinguish us from inanimate things. We now have fewer rights than at any time in the history of mankind. Perhaps that is why we try so hard to guarantee the few that remain to us in Legal Proceedings.

All men are assumed to be guilty and attempting to prove otherwise makes us appear even guiltier. This is exactly as life under a totalitarian regime has been described.

too true, too true.

In some respects this excess of caution is an experiment to determine if humanity has any remaining vestiges of personal dignity. It appears that we have none by accepting willingly being treated like objects and being happy complying with authorities, we deserve no better.

Our invocation of a "resuscitate and rescue at all costs" medical system is hugely questionable re: Personal Dignity. I know this may be threatening to some of our constituents here, perhaps sometimes, eventually myself included... but we've put avoiding death so high on our list that we will accept any indignity to avoid it. I suspect the TSA phenomenon is obliquely related...

If we do not object then we deserve what we get. Now I understand how the Jews walked into the death camps without protest. That always struck me as out of character. Now our entire society is incapable of protest. The psychology of human degradation is very intriguing.

Once upon a time people stripped naked and chained themselves to railings in Trafalgar square protesting Nuclear weapons deployment in Britain. Public nakedness has been a widely accepted form of public protest.

And in my case downright *scary*, something tells me from your tone, yours would be equally terrifying to the unsuspecting masses standing in line! Perhaps we should coordinate some travel.. you take the far left lane, I'll take the far right and we'll start drifting toward the center, wreaking havoc!

Nothing will change until a bus load of retirees strips naked for a junket to Las Vegas.

I will lead the charge of the bare-assed geezers. Is it still acceptable if I keep my cane? I’d feel naked without it.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Victoria Hughes
Sent: November 20, 2010 4:20 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group; [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] TSA, security technology, and opting out

From Bruce Schneier

link to great blog post, comprehensive with lots of links, useful for all who travel by air-

Schneier on Security

first few paragraphs-

"TSA Backscatter X-ray Backlash

Things are happening so fast that I don't know if I should bother. But here are some links and observations.

The head of the Allied Pilots Association is telling its members to avoid both the full body scanners and the patdowns.

This first-hand report, from a man who refused to fly rather than subject himself to a full-body scan or an enhanced patdown, has been making the rounds. (The TSA is now investigating him.) It reminds me of Penn Jillette's story from 2002.

A woman has a horrific story of opting-out of the full body scanners. More stories: this one about the TSA patting down a screaming toddler. And here's Dave Barry's encounter (also this NPR interview)......

Yesterday, the TSA administrator John Pistole was grilled by the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee on full-body scanners. Rep. Ron Paul introduced a bill to ban them. (His floor speech is here.) I'm one of the plaintiffs in a lawsuit to ban them.

Book for kids: My First Cavity Search. Cover seen at at TSA checkpoint.

Michael Chertoff, former Department of Homeland Security secretary, has been touting the full-body scanners, while at the same time maintaining a financial interest in the company that makes them."
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Steve Smith

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

In reply to this post by Vladimyr Burachynsky

Vlad -

Once again, you are *my hero* and that is saying a bit!

After recently objecting to a body search in Toronto and being as sarcastic as legally possible some passengers suggested that I was frightening them by objecting to the intrusion. That was interesting; the fear quotient was high enough that members of “The Group” were willing to attack each other in the absence of a clearly identifiable enemy. My threatening action was simply to question the security guard as to whether stripping naked in the line up would make him feel better, very loudly!. I then asked the crowd if they would feel safer after seeing me publicly naked.

That did not amuse anyone, and sensing my over eagerness to strip my aging carcass in public was deemed very offensive while a probe up my nether regions was perfectly acceptable?

My brother, who had to endure my theatrics, later suggested that if Alcohol was not recommended for anyone required to think or operate machinery, then we should have found ways to prohibit the incitement of fear as even more threatening to public safety. Yet we still protest that being in a state of fear excuses all our inconsiderate actions. Personally no one should ever make decisions of any significance if their minds are obscured by phantom fears. Traveling is not as much fun as it used to be.

We live in a new society where it is normal to dehumanize everybody.

This is not new, we do it over and over again... but I get your point, it is new relative to relatively recent history (in this country).

We talk about human rights all the time but in fact those few rights are about all that we have left to distinguish us from inanimate things. We now have fewer rights than at any time in the history of mankind. Perhaps that is why we try so hard to guarantee the few that remain to us in Legal Proceedings.

All men are assumed to be guilty and attempting to prove otherwise makes us appear even guiltier. This is exactly as life under a totalitarian regime has been described.

too true, too true.

In some respects this excess of caution is an experiment to determine if humanity has any remaining vestiges of personal dignity. It appears that we have none by accepting willingly being treated like objects and being happy complying with authorities, we deserve no better.

If we do not object then we deserve what we get. Now I understand how the Jews walked into the death camps without protest. That always struck me as out of character. Now our entire society is incapable of protest. The psychology of human degradation is very intriguing.

Once upon a time people stripped naked and chained themselves to railings in Trafalgar square protesting Nuclear weapons deployment in Britain. Public nakedness has been a widely accepted form of public protest.

Nothing will change until a bus load of retirees strips naked for a junket to Las Vegas.

I will lead the charge of the bare-assed geezers. Is it still acceptable if I keep my cane? I’d feel naked without it.

I was stripped of my proud new (to me) didgeridoo when I flew back from New Zealand even before 9/11. Imagine they believed it could be used as a fearsome weapon for hijackery! And they hadn't even heard me play it yet! Who is this crazy Yowie trying to board an international flight with a 6' long hollowed out root with strange pointillist paintery all over it?

Carry on!
- Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Victoria Hughes
Sent: November 20, 2010 4:20 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group; [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] TSA, security technology, and opting out

From Bruce Schneier

link to great blog post, comprehensive with lots of links, useful for all who travel by air-

Schneier on Security

first few paragraphs-

"TSA Backscatter X-ray Backlash

Things are happening so fast that I don't know if I should bother. But here are some links and observations.

The head of the Allied Pilots Association is telling its members to avoid both the full body scanners and the patdowns.

This first-hand report, from a man who refused to fly rather than subject himself to a full-body scan or an enhanced patdown, has been making the rounds. (The TSA is now investigating him.) It reminds me of Penn Jillette's story from 2002.

A woman has a horrific story of opting-out of the full body scanners. More stories: this one about the TSA patting down a screaming toddler. And here's Dave Barry's encounter (also this NPR interview)......

Yesterday, the TSA administrator John Pistole was grilled by the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee on full-body scanners. Rep. Ron Paul introduced a bill to ban them. (His floor speech is here.) I'm one of the plaintiffs in a lawsuit to ban them.

Book for kids: My First Cavity Search. Cover seen at at TSA checkpoint.

Michael Chertoff, former Department of Homeland Security secretary, has been touting the full-body scanners, while at the same time maintaining a financial interest in the company that makes them."
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

I'll take pictures. I'll start a blog. I'll alert the media. I'll pay you! Please, when can we start?

I've suggested many times, that from now on, I should enter T!SA security wearing absolutely nothing but a Speedo...

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Vlad -

Once again, you are *my hero* and that is saying a bit!

After recently objecting to a body search in Toronto and being as sarcastic as legally possible some passengers suggested that I was frightening them by objecting to the intrusion. That was interesting; the fear quotient was high enough that members of “The Group” were willing to attack each other in the absence of a clearly identifiable enemy. My threatening action was simply to question the security guard as to whether stripping naked in the line up would make him feel better, very loudly!. I then asked the crowd if they would feel safer after seeing me publicly naked.

That did not amuse anyone, and sensing my over eagerness to strip my aging carcass in public was deemed very offensive while a probe up my nether regions was perfectly acceptable?

I've suggested many times, that from now on, I should enter TSA security wearing absolutely nothing but a Speedo... It would be an act of what I call *white whale watching* for the other sad passengers who had to witness this. Maybe we could start a fad, a performance art practice, street theater of sorts if you will!

The other thought I've had is each time I come to the airport, to bring a large bag filled with the leftover spices and other foodstuffs in my kitchen which are no longer interesting, viable or useful... and the same for those of you with overflowing medicine cabinets... just take them out of the bag one by one... "this? this 2 oz of crusty peanut butter from a 16 oz jar... I can't take *that* on? Ok, so here, just put it in the bin then! " "And this near empty bottle of virgin olive oil with a crust of hardened oil on the outside, faded label, I can't take that on either? OK! here right into the bin!" "Now, what else do we have here... oh! The scary tabasco... yes... definitely *right* into the bin!"   15 mins later, your cupboard is empty, their bin is full!

For the really adventurous, I think we have a new plan for disposing of unwanted cans of paint, near empty bottles of motor oil, etc.!   "Oh my! you mean I can't take this on the plane?". Having just trimmed hundreds of square inches of corrugated steel off my roof as I layed it down, I have fascinating scraps that *all* look much more deadly than a box-cutter. "What? I was taking this to my grand-daughter as a toy... how do you mean I can't take this on the plane? Ok... YOU take it then! Maybe you should be wearing gloves, you know.. sharp edges and all!"

I highly recommend the following from an early cover of "Steampunk Magazine"... I'm *still* rolling in hilarity over this!

My brother, who had to endure my theatrics, later suggested that if Alcohol was not recommended for anyone required to think or operate machinery, then we should have found ways to prohibit the incitement of fear as even more threatening to public safety. Yet we still protest that being in a state of fear excuses all our inconsiderate actions. Personally no one should ever make decisions of any significance if their minds are obscured by phantom fears. Traveling is not as much fun as it used to be.

And yes! We are not *inciting* fear, we are helping to release the fear that the bastards (of all genders) have chosen to instill in us at any price. Why? I'm not sure, though my conspiratorial alternate personality believes it is to *control* us... other personalities suspect it is just because "they can"...   odd, trivial power trips with no real goal in mind... a good reason to hire the undereducated, the bored, the chronically frightened, the disenfranchised. They naturally gravitate to the very same abuses they have suffered themselves in their everyday lives...   "We do *that* which we have had done to us!" The cycle of abuse...

We live in a new society where it is normal to dehumanize everybody.

This is not new, we do it over and over again... but I get your point, it is new relative to relatively recent history (in this country).

We talk about human rights all the time but in fact those few rights are about all that we have left to distinguish us from inanimate things. We now have fewer rights than at any time in the history of mankind. Perhaps that is why we try so hard to guarantee the few that remain to us in Legal Proceedings.

All men are assumed to be guilty and attempting to prove otherwise makes us appear even guiltier. This is exactly as life under a totalitarian regime has been described.

too true, too true.

In some respects this excess of caution is an experiment to determine if humanity has any remaining vestiges of personal dignity. It appears that we have none by accepting willingly being treated like objects and being happy complying with authorities, we deserve no better.

Our invocation of a "resuscitate and rescue at all costs" medical system is hugely questionable re: Personal Dignity. I know this may be threatening to some of our constituents here, perhaps sometimes, eventually myself included... but we've put avoiding death so high on our list that we will accept any indignity to avoid it. I suspect the TSA phenomenon is obliquely related...

If we do not object then we deserve what we get. Now I understand how the Jews walked into the death camps without protest. That always struck me as out of character. Now our entire society is incapable of protest. The psychology of human degradation is very intriguing.

Once upon a time people stripped naked and chained themselves to railings in Trafalgar square protesting Nuclear weapons deployment in Britain. Public nakedness has been a widely accepted form of public protest.

And in my case downright *scary*, something tells me from your tone, yours would be equally terrifying to the unsuspecting masses standing in line! Perhaps we should coordinate some travel.. you take the far left lane, I'll take the far right and we'll start drifting toward the center, wreaking havoc!

Nothing will change until a bus load of retirees strips naked for a junket to Las Vegas.

  I will lead the charge of the bare-assed geezers. Is it still acceptable if I keep my cane? I’d feel naked without it.

I was stripped of my proud new (to me) didgeridoo when I flew back from New Zealand even before 9/11. Imagine they believed it could be used as a fearsome weapon for hijackery! And they hadn't even heard me play it yet!

Carry on!
- Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Victoria Hughes
Sent: November 20, 2010 4:20 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group; [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] TSA, security technology, and opting out

From Bruce Schneier

link to great blog post, comprehensive with lots of links, useful for all who travel by air-

Schneier on Security

first few paragraphs-

"TSA Backscatter X-ray Backlash

Things are happening so fast that I don't know if I should bother. But here are some links and observations.

The head of the Allied Pilots Association is telling its members to avoid both the full body scanners and the patdowns.

This first-hand report, from a man who refused to fly rather than subject himself to a full-body scan or an enhanced patdown, has been making the rounds. (The TSA is now investigating him.) It reminds me of Penn Jillette's story from 2002.

A woman has a horrific story of opting-out of the full body scanners. More stories: this one about the TSA patting down a screaming toddler. And here's Dave Barry's encounter (also this NPR interview)......

Yesterday, the TSA administrator John Pistole was grilled by the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee on full-body scanners. Rep. Ron Paul introduced a bill to ban them. (His floor speech is here.) I'm one of the plaintiffs in a lawsuit to ban them.

Book for kids: My First Cavity Search. Cover seen at at TSA checkpoint.

Michael Chertoff, former Department of Homeland Security secretary, has been touting the full-body scanners, while at the same time maintaining a financial interest in the company that makes them."
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

Steve Smith

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

On 11/20/10 7:22 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

I'll take pictures. I'll start a blog. I'll alert the media. I'll pay you! Please, when can we start?

Absolutely... *YOU* are first in line... I'll hold the camera while you get properly attired! Vladimyr and I will take the extreme left and right lanes, you go right down the middle... it will be a *Pincer* formation! Nick? Are you in? I think with your help, we can make the front page of the NYT!

PS... I've got a fresh bottle of Boulliete with your name on it and a closed in, sealed, but not-yet-insulated Sunroom, slowing bringing itself up to heat as the awesome Cottonwood drops it's leaves... perfect venue for a binge of drinking and TSA/Nanos messing-with!

I've suggested many times, that from now on, I should enter T!SA security wearing absolutely nothing but a Speedo...
On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Vlad -

Once again, you are *my hero* and that is saying a bit!

After recently objecting to a body search in Toronto and being as sarcastic as legally possible some passengers suggested that I was frightening them by objecting to the intrusion. That was interesting; the fear quotient was high enough that members of “The Group” were willing to attack each other in the absence of a clearly identifiable enemy. My threatening action was simply to question the security guard as to whether stripping naked in the line up would make him feel better, very loudly!. I then asked the crowd if they would feel safer after seeing me publicly naked.

That did not amuse anyone, and sensing my over eagerness to strip my aging carcass in public was deemed very offensive while a probe up my nether regions was perfectly acceptable?

I've suggested many times, that from now on, I should enter TSA security wearing absolutely nothing but a Speedo... It would be an act of what I call *white whale watching* for the other sad passengers who had to witness this. Maybe we could start a fad, a performance art practice, street theater of sorts if you will!

The other thought I've had is each time I come to the airport, to bring a large bag filled with the leftover spices and other foodstuffs in my kitchen which are no longer interesting, viable or useful... and the same for those of you with overflowing medicine cabinets... just take them out of the bag one by one... "this? this 2 oz of crusty peanut butter from a 16 oz jar... I can't take *that* on? Ok, so here, just put it in the bin then! " "And this near empty bottle of virgin olive oil with a crust of hardened oil on the outside, faded label, I can't take that on either? OK! here right into the bin!" "Now, what else do we have here... oh! The scary tabasco... yes... definitely *right* into the bin!"   15 mins later, your cupboard is empty, their bin is full!

For the really adventurous, I think we have a new plan for disposing of unwanted cans of paint, near empty bottles of motor oil, etc.!   "Oh my! you mean I can't take this on the plane?". Having just trimmed hundreds of square inches of corrugated steel off my roof as I layed it down, I have fascinating scraps that *all* look much more deadly than a box-cutter. "What? I was taking this to my grand-daughter as a toy... how do you mean I can't take this on the plane? Ok... YOU take it then! Maybe you should be wearing gloves, you know.. sharp edges and all!"

I highly recommend the following from an early cover of "Steampunk Magazine"... I'm *still* rolling in hilarity over this!

My brother, who had to endure my theatrics, later suggested that if Alcohol was not recommended for anyone required to think or operate machinery, then we should have found ways to prohibit the incitement of fear as even more threatening to public safety. Yet we still protest that being in a state of fear excuses all our inconsiderate actions. Personally no one should ever make decisions of any significance if their minds are obscured by phantom fears. Traveling is not as much fun as it used to be.

And yes! We are not *inciting* fear, we are helping to release the fear that the bastards (of all genders) have chosen to instill in us at any price. Why? I'm not sure, though my conspiratorial alternate personality believes it is to *control* us... other personalities suspect it is just because "they can"...   odd, trivial power trips with no real goal in mind... a good reason to hire the undereducated, the bored, the chronically frightened, the disenfranchised. They naturally gravitate to the very same abuses they have suffered themselves in their everyday lives...   "We do *that* which we have had done to us!" The cycle of abuse...

We live in a new society where it is normal to dehumanize everybody.

This is not new, we do it over and over again... but I get your point, it is new relative to relatively recent history (in this country).

We talk about human rights all the time but in fact those few rights are about all that we have left to distinguish us from inanimate things. We now have fewer rights than at any time in the history of mankind. Perhaps that is why we try so hard to guarantee the few that remain to us in Legal Proceedings.

All men are assumed to be guilty and attempting to prove otherwise makes us appear even guiltier. This is exactly as life under a totalitarian regime has been described.

too true, too true.

In some respects this excess of caution is an experiment to determine if humanity has any remaining vestiges of personal dignity. It appears that we have none by accepting willingly being treated like objects and being happy complying with authorities, we deserve no better.

Our invocation of a "resuscitate and rescue at all costs" medical system is hugely questionable re: Personal Dignity. I know this may be threatening to some of our constituents here, perhaps sometimes, eventually myself included... but we've put avoiding death so high on our list that we will accept any indignity to avoid it. I suspect the TSA phenomenon is obliquely related...

If we do not object then we deserve what we get. Now I understand how the Jews walked into the death camps without protest. That always struck me as out of character. Now our entire society is incapable of protest. The psychology of human degradation is very intriguing.

Once upon a time people stripped naked and chained themselves to railings in Trafalgar square protesting Nuclear weapons deployment in Britain. Public nakedness has been a widely accepted form of public protest.

And in my case downright *scary*, something tells me from your tone, yours would be equally terrifying to the unsuspecting masses standing in line! Perhaps we should coordinate some travel.. you take the far left lane, I'll take the far right and we'll start drifting toward the center, wreaking havoc!

Nothing will change until a bus load of retirees strips naked for a junket to Las Vegas.

  I will lead the charge of the bare-assed geezers. Is it still acceptable if I keep my cane? I’d feel naked without it.

I was stripped of my proud new (to me) didgeridoo when I flew back from New Zealand even before 9/11. Imagine they believed it could be used as a fearsome weapon for hijackery! And they hadn't even heard me play it yet!

Carry on!
- Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Victoria Hughes
Sent: November 20, 2010 4:20 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group; [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] TSA, security technology, and opting out

From Bruce Schneier

link to great blog post, comprehensive with lots of links, useful for all who travel by air-

Schneier on Security

first few paragraphs-

"TSA Backscatter X-ray Backlash

Things are happening so fast that I don't know if I should bother. But here are some links and observations.

The head of the Allied Pilots Association is telling its members to avoid both the full body scanners and the patdowns.

This first-hand report, from a man who refused to fly rather than subject himself to a full-body scan or an enhanced patdown, has been making the rounds. (The TSA is now investigating him.) It reminds me of Penn Jillette's story from 2002.

A woman has a horrific story of opting-out of the full body scanners. More stories: this one about the TSA patting down a screaming toddler. And here's Dave Barry's encounter (also this NPR interview)......

Yesterday, the TSA administrator John Pistole was grilled by the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee on full-body scanners. Rep. Ron Paul introduced a bill to ban them. (His floor speech is here.) I'm one of the plaintiffs in a lawsuit to ban them.

Book for kids: My First Cavity Search. Cover seen at at TSA checkpoint.

Michael Chertoff, former Department of Homeland Security secretary, has been touting the full-body scanners, while at the same time maintaining a financial interest in the company that makes them."
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

You tempt me strangely, oh Speedo-clad WW (White Whale).

I don't know about your planet, but on mine proposal silly season started last week. However, I've been a good corporate drone and spent all of this Saturday laying verbiage down which I'm *sure* the client will lap up.

I hope it's a big bottle, btw, 'cause I'm going one to help wash that image of Nick in a Speedo out of my mind.

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 11/20/10 7:22 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
I'll take pictures. I'll start a blog. I'll alert the media. I'll pay you! Please, when can we start?
Absolutely... *YOU* are first in line... I'll hold the camera while you get properly attired! Vladimyr and I will take the extreme left and right lanes, you go right down the middle... it will be a *Pincer* formation! Nick? Are you in? I think with your help, we can make the front page of the NYT!

PS... I've got a fresh bottle of Boulliete with your name on it and a closed in, sealed, but not-yet-insulated Sunroom, slowing bringing itself up to heat as the awesome Cottonwood drops it's leaves... perfect venue for a binge of drinking and TSA/Nanos messing-with!
I've suggested many times, that from now on, I should enter T!SA security wearing absolutely nothing but a Speedo...
On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Vlad -

Once again, you are *my hero* and that is saying a bit!

After recently objecting to a body search in Toronto and being as sarcastic as legally possible some passengers suggested that I was frightening them by objecting to the intrusion. That was interesting; the fear quotient was high enough that members of “The Group” were willing to attack each other in the absence of a clearly identifiable enemy. My threatening action was simply to question the security guard as to whether stripping naked in the line up would make him feel better, very loudly!. I then asked the crowd if they would feel safer after seeing me publicly naked.

That did not amuse anyone, and sensing my over eagerness to strip my aging carcass in public was deemed very offensive while a probe up my nether regions was perfectly acceptable?

I've suggested many times, that from now on, I should enter TSA security wearing absolutely nothing but a Speedo... It would be an act of what I call *white whale watching* for the other sad passengers who had to witness this. Maybe we could start a fad, a performance art practice, street theater of sorts if you will!

The other thought I've had is each time I come to the airport, to bring a large bag filled with the leftover spices and other foodstuffs in my kitchen which are no longer interesting, viable or useful... and the same for those of you with overflowing medicine cabinets... just take them out of the bag one by one... "this? this 2 oz of crusty peanut butter from a 16 oz jar... I can't take *that* on? Ok, so here, just put it in the bin then! " "And this near empty bottle of virgin olive oil with a crust of hardened oil on the outside, faded label, I can't take that on either? OK! here right into the bin!" "Now, what else do we have here... oh! The scary tabasco... yes... definitely *right* into the bin!"   15 mins later, your cupboard is empty, their bin is full!

For the really adventurous, I think we have a new plan for disposing of unwanted cans of paint, near empty bottles of motor oil, etc.!   "Oh my! you mean I can't take this on the plane?". Having just trimmed hundreds of square inches of corrugated steel off my roof as I layed it down, I have fascinating scraps that *all* look much more deadly than a box-cutter. "What? I was taking this to my grand-daughter as a toy... how do you mean I can't take this on the plane? Ok... YOU take it then! Maybe you should be wearing gloves, you know.. sharp edges and all!"

I highly recommend the following from an early cover of "Steampunk Magazine"... I'm *still* rolling in hilarity over this!

My brother, who had to endure my theatrics, later suggested that if Alcohol was not recommended for anyone required to think or operate machinery, then we should have found ways to prohibit the incitement of fear as even more threatening to public safety. Yet we still protest that being in a state of fear excuses all our inconsiderate actions. Personally no one should ever make decisions of any significance if their minds are obscured by phantom fears. Traveling is not as much fun as it used to be.

And yes! We are not *inciting* fear, we are helping to release the fear that the bastards (of all genders) have chosen to instill in us at any price. Why? I'm not sure, though my conspiratorial alternate personality believes it is to *control* us... other personalities suspect it is just because "they can"...   odd, trivial power trips with no real goal in mind... a good reason to hire the undereducated, the bored, the chronically frightened, the disenfranchised. They naturally gravitate to the very same abuses they have suffered themselves in their everyday lives...   "We do *that* which we have had done to us!" The cycle of abuse...

We live in a new society where it is normal to dehumanize everybody.

This is not new, we do it over and over again... but I get your point, it is new relative to relatively recent history (in this country).

We talk about human rights all the time but in fact those few rights are about all that we have left to distinguish us from inanimate things. We now have fewer rights than at any time in the history of mankind. Perhaps that is why we try so hard to guarantee the few that remain to us in Legal Proceedings.

All men are assumed to be guilty and attempting to prove otherwise makes us appear even guiltier. This is exactly as life under a totalitarian regime has been described.

too true, too true.

In some respects this excess of caution is an experiment to determine if humanity has any remaining vestiges of personal dignity. It appears that we have none by accepting willingly being treated like objects and being happy complying with authorities, we deserve no better.

Our invocation of a "resuscitate and rescue at all costs" medical system is hugely questionable re: Personal Dignity. I know this may be threatening to some of our constituents here, perhaps sometimes, eventually myself included... but we've put avoiding death so high on our list that we will accept any indignity to avoid it. I suspect the TSA phenomenon is obliquely related...

If we do not object then we deserve what we get. Now I understand how the Jews walked into the death camps without protest. That always struck me as out of character. Now our entire society is incapable of protest. The psychology of human degradation is very intriguing.

Once upon a time people stripped naked and chained themselves to railings in Trafalgar square protesting Nuclear weapons deployment in Britain. Public nakedness has been a widely accepted form of public protest.

And in my case downright *scary*, something tells me from your tone, yours would be equally terrifying to the unsuspecting masses standing in line! Perhaps we should coordinate some travel.. you take the far left lane, I'll take the far right and we'll start drifting toward the center, wreaking havoc!

Nothing will change until a bus load of retirees strips naked for a junket to Las Vegas.

  I will lead the charge of the bare-assed geezers. Is it still acceptable if I keep my cane? I’d feel naked without it.

I was stripped of my proud new (to me) didgeridoo when I flew back from New Zealand even before 9/11. Imagine they believed it could be used as a fearsome weapon for hijackery! And they hadn't even heard me play it yet!

Carry on!
- Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Victoria Hughes
Sent: November 20, 2010 4:20 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group; [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] TSA, security technology, and opting out

From Bruce Schneier

link to great blog post, comprehensive with lots of links, useful for all who travel by air-

Schneier on Security

first few paragraphs-

"TSA Backscatter X-ray Backlash

Things are happening so fast that I don't know if I should bother. But here are some links and observations.

The head of the Allied Pilots Association is telling its members to avoid both the full body scanners and the patdowns.

This first-hand report, from a man who refused to fly rather than subject himself to a full-body scan or an enhanced patdown, has been making the rounds. (The TSA is now investigating him.) It reminds me of Penn Jillette's story from 2002.

A woman has a horrific story of opting-out of the full body scanners. More stories: this one about the TSA patting down a screaming toddler. And here's Dave Barry's encounter (also this NPR interview)......

Yesterday, the TSA administrator John Pistole was grilled by the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee on full-body scanners. Rep. Ron Paul introduced a bill to ban them. (His floor speech is here.) I'm one of the plaintiffs in a lawsuit to ban them.

Book for kids: My First Cavity Search. Cover seen at at TSA checkpoint.

Michael Chertoff, former Department of Homeland Security secretary, has been touting the full-body scanners, while at the same time maintaining a financial interest in the company that makes them."
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - CellY

Nick Thompson

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Nah, Steve. I am going to rain on this parade. Sorry.

For years we all had our inseams measured without accusing tailors of homophilia. There is nothing inherently undignified in the search except that perception makes it so. All of this “keep your mitts off my junk” (“JUNK!” WHERE THE HELL DID THAT COME FROM?) is a juvenile distraction from two EXTREMELY important issues.

(1) Are the back scatter scanners safe?

(2) Is security based on high cost machinery (rather than intelligence) effective.

It does give me pause that Michael Chertoff was, I understand, a serious investor in the company that makes the machines. No I don’t have any proof.

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:55 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] TSA, security technology, and opting out

On 11/20/10 7:22 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

I'll take pictures. I'll start a blog. I'll alert the media. I'll pay you! Please, when can we start?

I've suggested many times, that from now on, I should enter T!SA security wearing absolutely nothing but a Speedo...

On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 7:09 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Vlad -

Once again, you are *my hero* and that is saying a bit!

After recently objecting to a body search in Toronto and being as sarcastic as legally possible some passengers suggested that I was frightening them by objecting to the intrusion. That was interesting; the fear quotient was high enough that members of “The Group” were willing to attack each other in the absence of a clearly identifiable enemy. My threatening action was simply to question the security guard as to whether stripping naked in the line up would make him feel better, very loudly!. I then asked the crowd if they would feel safer after seeing me publicly naked.
That did not amuse anyone, and sensing my over eagerness to strip my aging carcass in public was deemed very offensive while a probe up my nether regions was perfectly acceptable?

My brother, who had to endure my theatrics, later suggested that if Alcohol was not recommended for anyone required to think or operate machinery, then we should have found ways to prohibit the incitement of fear as even more threatening to public safety. Yet we still protest that being in a state of fear excuses all our inconsiderate actions. Personally no one should ever make decisions of any significance if their minds are obscured by phantom fears. Traveling is not as much fun as it used to be.

We live in a new society where it is normal to dehumanize everybody.

This is not new, we do it over and over again... but I get your point, it is new relative to relatively recent history (in this country).

We talk about human rights all the time but in fact those few rights are about all that we have left to distinguish us from inanimate things. We now have fewer rights than at any time in the history of mankind. Perhaps that is why we try so hard to guarantee the few that remain to us in Legal Proceedings.

All men are assumed to be guilty and attempting to prove otherwise makes us appear even guiltier. This is exactly as life under a totalitarian regime has been described.

too true, too true.

If we do not object then we deserve what we get. Now I understand how the Jews walked into the death camps without protest. That always struck me as out of character. Now our entire society is incapable of protest. The psychology of human degradation is very intriguing.

Once upon a time people stripped naked and chained themselves to railings in Trafalgar square protesting Nuclear weapons deployment in Britain. Public nakedness has been a widely accepted form of public protest.

Nothing will change until a bus load of retirees strips naked for a junket to Las Vegas.

I will lead the charge of the bare-assed geezers. Is it still acceptable if I keep my cane? I’d feel naked without it.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Victoria Hughes
Sent: November 20, 2010 4:20 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group; [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] TSA, security technology, and opting out

From Bruce Schneier

link to great blog post, comprehensive with lots of links, useful for all who travel by air-

Schneier on Security

first few paragraphs-

"TSA Backscatter X-ray Backlash

Things are happening so fast that I don't know if I should bother. But here are some links and observations.

The head of the Allied Pilots Association is telling its members to avoid both the full body scanners and the patdowns.

Book for kids: My First Cavity Search. Cover seen at at TSA checkpoint.

Michael Chertoff, former Department of Homeland Security secretary, has been touting the full-body scanners, while at the same time maintaining a financial interest in the company that makes them."

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Steve Smith

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

Nick -

Nah, Steve. I am going to rain on this parade. Sorry.

I wondered what that splashing/drizzling was all about! Thanks a lot!

For years we all had our inseams measured without accusing tailors of homophilia. There is nothing inherently undignified in the search except that perception makes it so.

So, my barber who keeps dropping his comb into my lap *isn't* making a pass at me? Shoots, I'll be needing to find another barber I guess! And you might not be surprised, but I've never had a tailor handle my junk while measuring my inseams... but then, that salesgirl at the store where I buy my jeans is welcome to measure my inseams... but every time I ask, she declines the opportunity.

All of this “keep your mitts off my junk” (“JUNK!” WHERE THE HELL DID THAT COME FROM?) is a juvenile distraction from two EXTREMELY important issues.

(1)    Are the back scatter scanners safe?

(2)    Is security based on high cost machinery (rather than intelligence) effective.

It does give me pause that Michael Chertoff was, I understand, a serious investor in the company that makes the machines.   No I don’t have any proof.

I don't suppose I disagree that these are potentially important issues. But I don't agree that submitting to escalating levels of invasive and highly questionable measures based on induced hysteria is a "good and necessary thing".

I'm still of the strong belief that one of the errant memes amok in our culture is the meme of fascism. The meme that insists that the good of the whole is entirely dependent on and subservient to the whim of the bureaucracy in place (and expanding). It is my firmly held opinion that the majority of the response to 9/11 has been an opportunistic one, feeding those who would feed this particular meme. Fascism positively loves fear!

I'm also completely in tune with the theme.... "just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are *not* out to get you". Yes, the great and wonderful America the Beautiful has ENEMIES and they "Hate our Freedoms" (What?) and they *will* hijack our planes and fly them into our tallest buildings if given the chance...

But I contend that there is also a rot within the souls of our own people who "Hate our Freedoms" in an entirely different way. They hate our freedom from fear, from administrative picayune control of everything. Just go dump your wallet out on the table and look through *that junk* and tell me that you are not being harried by a dozen or more trivial systems which require you to step and fetch... driver's license (aka Universal ID), Insurance card(s), credit cards, Social Security Card, Loyalty Shopping Cards... the rest I'm not sure I wanna know! Then go check the file cabinet, and the glove box of your car... or your stack of unopened (my case) or recently opened (more likely) mail. The quantity and complexity of the systems designed around keeping YOU in line is amazing. Dial up a right wing talk radio station and listen to the rhetoric in the *advertising* on identity theft (guard), it is positively disgusting!

Yes, someone hates our freedoms, but I don't think it is the 12 year old boys and girls spread across a great deal of the world strapping bombs onto their chests to blow up our tanks (those not busy stepping on our errant landmines)... *they* have something seriously sad going on in *their* (short and likely miserable) lives as do our young men and women stuck in the "stop-loss" war that is consuming their prime years, but the threat is as much from within (all forms of paranoid hysteria and the fascist systems and behaviour it can fuel) as from without.

Ooops, I think I got off on a rant there! <grin>

- Steve

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

Steve,

I agree with everything you say about fascism. Yours not a rant. Just an exact description of what is happening.

But I am NOT clear why nudity is the bottom line. (};-]) We are absolutely passive until we find ourselves in the “showers” and are asked to take our clothes off? So, let’s imagine a scenario in which They say, “Ok. You’re correct! No Junkyard dogs at the TSA checkpoints. However, in compensation, we are going to have to start reading your mail, like the Israelis do.” (I don’t know if the Iraeli’s do, but that is what they are going to say.). Look, something is seriously amiss when Olberman and Beck agree on something.

Hey, TSA no problem. Time to worry about Obamacare’s recommendation of universal colonoscopies. (By the way, how do you copy a colonos, anyway?)

Nick

PS: As a test of my position, I went to www.aclu.org to see if they were on board with this hysteria. Ooops! They are! LOT of interesting stuff, there, none of which supports my position.

PPS: Did you hear or read the report that one can be exempt from BOTH procedures on religious grounds by claiming to be a muslim woman?

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:00 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] TSA, security technology, and opting out

Nick -

Nah, Steve. I am going to rain on this parade. Sorry.

I wondered what that splashing/drizzling was all about! Thanks a lot!

For years we all had our inseams measured without accusing tailors of homophilia. There is nothing inherently undignified in the search except that perception makes it so.

All of this “keep your mitts off my junk” (“JUNK!” WHERE THE HELL DID THAT COME FROM?) is a juvenile distraction from two EXTREMELY important issues.

Are the back scatter scanners safe?

Is security based on high cost machinery (rather than intelligence) effective.

It does give me pause that Michael Chertoff was, I understand, a serious investor in the company that makes the machines. No I don’t have any proof.

Steve Smith

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

Nick -

You are spot on again... too bad we'll be drinking your share of the bourbon tonight!

I agree with everything you say about fascism. Yours not a rant. Just an exact description of what is happening.

the very best kind of rant, the undeniable ones!

But I am NOT clear why nudity is the bottom line. (};-]) We are absolutely passive until we find ourselves in the “showers” and are asked to take our clothes off?

Actually I don't care so much about the presumed invasion of my body space.... though the suckers get taken in everytime by the big salami I tape into my trousers... you should *see* the looks on their faces!

So, let’s imagine a scenario in which They say, “Ok. You’re correct! No Junkyard dogs at the TSA checkpoints. However, in compensation, we are going to have to start reading your mail, like the Israelis do.” (I don’t know if the Iraeli’s do, but that is what they are going to say.). Look, something is seriously amiss when Olberman and Beck agree on something.

Hey, TSA no problem. Time to worry about Obamacare’s recommendation of universal colonoscopies. (By the way, how do you copy a colonos, anyway?)

Shit... (just to be colorful) you've got me there!

PS: As a test of my position, I went to www.aclu.org to see if they were on board with this hysteria. Ooops! They are! LOT of interesting stuff, there, none of which supports my position.

You are a gem.

PPS: Did you hear or read the report that one can be exempt from BOTH procedures on religious grounds by claiming to be a muslim woman?

Heck, I've always been a Muslim woman... or at least I really enjoy playing one on the internet! Drives the NSA boys NUTS!

- Steve

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:00 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] TSA, security technology, and opting out

Nick -

Nah, Steve. I am going to rain on this parade. Sorry.

I wondered what that splashing/drizzling was all about! Thanks a lot!

For years we all had our inseams measured without accusing tailors of homophilia. There is nothing inherently undignified in the search except that perception makes it so.

So, my barber who keeps dropping his comb into my lap *isn't* making a pass at me? Shoots, I'll be needing to find another barber I guess! And you might not be surprised, but I've never had a tailor handle my junk while measuring my inseams... but then, that salesgirl at the store where I buy my jeans is welcome to measure my inseams... but every time I ask, she declines the opportunity.

All of this “keep your mitts off my junk” (“JUNK!” WHERE THE HELL DID THAT COME FROM?) is a juvenile distraction from two EXTREMELY important issues.

Are the back scatter scanners safe?

Is security based on high cost machinery (rather than intelligence) effective.

It does give me pause that Michael Chertoff was, I understand, a serious investor in the company that makes the machines. No I don’t have any proof.

I don't suppose I disagree that these are potentially important issues. But I don't agree that submitting to escalating levels of invasive and highly questionable measures based on induced hysteria is a "good and necessary thing".

I'm still of the strong belief that one of the errant memes amok in our culture is the meme of fascism. The meme that insists that the good of the whole is entirely dependent on and subservient to the whim of the bureaucracy in place (and expanding). It is my firmly held opinion that the majority of the response to 9/11 has been an opportunistic one, feeding those who would feed this particular meme. Fascism positively loves fear!

I'm also completely in tune with the theme.... "just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are *not* out to get you". Yes, the great and wonderful America the Beautiful has ENEMIES and they "Hate our Freedoms" (What?) and they *will* hijack our planes and fly them into our tallest buildings if given the chance...

But I contend that there is also a rot within the souls of our own people who "Hate our Freedoms" in an entirely different way. They hate our freedom from fear, from administrative picayune control of everything. Just go dump your wallet out on the table and look through *that junk* and tell me that you are not being harried by a dozen or more trivial systems which require you to step and fetch... driver's license (aka Universal ID), Insurance card(s), credit cards, Social Security Card, Loyalty Shopping Cards... the rest I'm not sure I wanna know! Then go check the file cabinet, and the glove box of your car... or your stack of unopened (my case) or recently opened (more likely) mail. The quantity and complexity of the systems designed around keeping YOU in line is amazing. Dial up a right wing talk radio station and listen to the rhetoric in the *advertising* on identity theft (guard), it is positively disgusting!

Yes, someone hates our freedoms, but I don't think it is the 12 year old boys and girls spread across a great deal of the world strapping bombs onto their chests to blow up our tanks (those not busy stepping on our errant landmines)... *they* have something seriously sad going on in *their* (short and likely miserable) lives as do our young men and women stuck in the "stop-loss" war that is consuming their prime years, but the threat is as much from within (all forms of paranoid hysteria and the fascist systems and behaviour it can fuel) as from without.

Ooops, I think I got off on a rant there! <grin>

- Steve
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Douglas Roberts-2

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

What a *clever* idea. I can just see the headlines: "Salami-equipped terrorist thwarted at the Albuquerque International Airport." I suppose the only remaining question is: should we use Italian hard salami, or something less threatening...

On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick -

You are spot on again... too bad we'll be drinking your share of the bourbon tonight!

I agree with everything you say about fascism. Yours not a rant. Just an exact description of what is happening.

the very best kind of rant, the undeniable ones!

But I am NOT clear why nudity is the bottom line. (};-]) We are absolutely passive until we find ourselves in the “showers” and are asked to take our clothes off?

Actually I don't care so much about the presumed invasion of my body space.... though the suckers get taken in everytime by the big salami I tape into my trousers... you should *see* the looks on their faces!

So, let’s imagine a scenario in which They say, “Ok. You’re correct! No Junkyard dogs at the TSA checkpoints. However, in compensation, we are going to have to start reading your mail, like the Israelis do.” (I don’t know if the Iraeli’s do, but that is what they are going to say.). Look, something is seriously amiss when Olberman and Beck agree on something.

Hey, TSA no problem. Time to worry about Obamacare’s recommendation of universal colonoscopies. (By the way, how do you copy a colonos, anyway?)

Shit... (just to be colorful) you've got me there!

PS: As a test of my position, I went to www.aclu.org to see if they were on board with this hysteria. Ooops! They are! LOT of interesting stuff, there, none of which supports my position.

You are a gem.

PPS: Did you hear or read the report that one can be exempt from BOTH procedures on religious grounds by claiming to be a muslim woman?

Heck, I've always been a Muslim woman... or at least I really enjoy playing one on the internet! Drives the NSA boys NUTS!

- Steve
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:00 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] TSA, security technology, and opting out

Nick -

Nah, Steve. I am going to rain on this parade. Sorry.

I wondered what that splashing/drizzling was all about! Thanks a lot!

For years we all had our inseams measured without accusing tailors of homophilia. There is nothing inherently undignified in the search except that perception makes it so.

So, my barber who keeps dropping his comb into my lap *isn't* making a pass at me? Shoots, I'll be needing to find another barber I guess! And you might not be surprised, but I've never had a tailor handle my junk while measuring my inseams... but then, that salesgirl at the store where I buy my jeans is welcome to measure my inseams... but every time I ask, she declines the opportunity.

All of this “keep your mitts off my junk” (“JUNK!” WHERE THE HELL DID THAT COME FROM?) is a juvenile distraction from two EXTREMELY important issues.

Are the back scatter scanners safe?

Is security based on high cost machinery (rather than intelligence) effective.

It does give me pause that Michael Chertoff was, I understand, a serious investor in the company that makes the machines. No I don’t have any proof.

I don't suppose I disagree that these are potentially important issues. But I don't agree that submitting to escalating levels of invasive and highly questionable measures based on induced hysteria is a "good and necessary thing".

I'm still of the strong belief that one of the errant memes amok in our culture is the meme of fascism. The meme that insists that the good of the whole is entirely dependent on and subservient to the whim of the bureaucracy in place (and expanding). It is my firmly held opinion that the majority of the response to 9/11 has been an opportunistic one, feeding those who would feed this particular meme. Fascism positively loves fear!

I'm also completely in tune with the theme.... "just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are *not* out to get you". Yes, the great and wonderful America the Beautiful has ENEMIES and they "Hate our Freedoms" (What?) and they *will* hijack our planes and fly them into our tallest buildings if given the chance...

But I contend that there is also a rot within the souls of our own people who "Hate our Freedoms" in an entirely different way. They hate our freedom from fear, from administrative picayune control of everything. Just go dump your wallet out on the table and look through *that junk* and tell me that you are not being harried by a dozen or more trivial systems which require you to step and fetch... driver's license (aka Universal ID), Insurance card(s), credit cards, Social Security Card, Loyalty Shopping Cards... the rest I'm not sure I wanna know! Then go check the file cabinet, and the glove box of your car... or your stack of unopened (my case) or recently opened (more likely) mail. The quantity and complexity of the systems designed around keeping YOU in line is amazing. Dial up a right wing talk radio station and listen to the rhetoric in the *advertising* on identity theft (guard), it is positively disgusting!

Yes, someone hates our freedoms, but I don't think it is the 12 year old boys and girls spread across a great deal of the world strapping bombs onto their chests to blow up our tanks (those not busy stepping on our errant landmines)... *they* have something seriously sad going on in *their* (short and likely miserable) lives as do our young men and women stuck in the "stop-loss" war that is consuming their prime years, but the threat is as much from within (all forms of paranoid hysteria and the fascist systems and behaviour it can fuel) as from without.

Ooops, I think I got off on a rant there! <grin>

- Steve
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Parks, Raymond

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Do you realize that you are exempt just by being Amish? I meet Amish folks on the train every trip.

From: Nicholas Thompson [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:24 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] TSA, security technology, and opting out

Steve,

I agree with everything you say about fascism. Yours not a rant. Just an exact description of what is happening.

Hey, TSA no problem. Time to worry about Obamacare’s recommendation of universal colonoscopies. (By the way, how do you copy a colonos, anyway?)

Nick

PS: As a test of my position, I went to www.aclu.org to see if they were on board with this hysteria. Ooops! They are! LOT of interesting stuff, there, none of which supports my position.

PPS: Did you hear or read the report that one can be exempt from BOTH procedures on religious grounds by claiming to be a muslim woman?

Nick -

Nah, Steve. I am going to rain on this parade. Sorry.

I wondered what that splashing/drizzling was all about! Thanks a lot!

For years we all had our inseams measured without accusing tailors of homophilia. There is nothing inherently undignified in the search except that perception makes it so.

All of this “keep your mitts off my junk” (“JUNK!” WHERE THE HELL DID THAT COME FROM?) is a juvenile distraction from two EXTREMELY important issues.

Are the back scatter scanners safe?

Is security based on high cost machinery (rather than intelligence) effective.

It does give me pause that Michael Chertoff was, I understand, a serious investor in the company that makes the machines. No I don’t have any proof.

glen ep ropella

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

In reply to this post by Vladimyr Burachynsky

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky wrote circa 10-11-20 04:39 PM:
> If we do not object then we deserve what we get. Now I understand how the
> Jews walked into the death camps without protest. That always struck me as
> out of character. Now our entire society is incapable of protest. The
> psychology of human degradation is very intriguing.

More fodder:

My TSA Encounter
http://noblasters.com/post/1650102322/my-tsa-encounter

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://tempusdictum.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

Thanks Glen very informative,
Canada is also struggling with these issues and our logic is also being
tested. But the writer is truly a remarkable individual the man must have
been a lawyer.

However, I am not sure how we can find solutions to the situation. Your
American Constitutional Rights are not Identical To ours. But they do
substantially overlap. Now Our constitution was only recently repatriated
and redefined and we watched as communities struggled to put in print what
they wanted to see. Some experts warned that the rights being entrenched
actually nibbled away or contradicted other rights within the same
documents.

Now it looks clearly like you guys just hit the wall the TSA was instructed
to carry out specific duties that conflicted with established documented
rights. The TSA was supposed to reduce fear among travelers. Well that
conflict over which takes precedence was superbly enacted by your writer
Matt. I compliment him. Now studying the game as was played it was clear
that TSA dictates did not superceed your constitutional Rights and I
compliment the Officers for finding a solution which though awkward was at
least preserving the entrenched rights of the citizen. Zizek discussed the
behavior of Yugoslavs especially police who imagined that their orders
permitted them to exceed legitimate powers. That belief was so attractive it
help recruit a large number of psychopaths to service. Pretty soon so many
nuts were giving themselves extra power that the slaughter of innocents went
unopposed. Zizek makes perhaps the best explanation of how normal people
become transformed by the group into monsters. Conformity, which curiously
also explains the passive attitude of millions during the Nazi regime. One
disease two faces.

Britain does not apparently have an entrenched bill of rights expressly to
avoid just such a situation. They argue that some flexibility of rights is
required to avoid constant testing and possible fracture. Our constitution
has many extraordinary rights reflecting modern social structures and
attempted to be very specific. To its detriment it is perhaps more fragile
than the American constitution. Your example clearly demonstrates what lies
in store for all nations that attempted entrenched bills of rights
subsequent to the American system. Now attempts to alter bills of rights
during unusual circumstances are not often successful. As you may recall
Canada went through its own terrorist crisis years ago when Radicals
kidnapped a Quebec provincial government official. Our Prime Minister
declared the infamous WAR MEASURES ACT, it was meant to give authorities
special powers to deal with a national threat or insurrection. It almost
tore us apart as a Nation. Police in distant regions used the new powers to
justify mass arrests of persons completely outside the scope of the problem.
I myself was held at Gun Point in Toronto for a few minutes as a teenager.
Hundreds of kilometers away from the problem. Police abuse of power cases
filled the courts for years but generally the police were allowed to slide.
Things returned to normal in short order and most of us forgot. The new
constitution was supposed to solve such minor problems. But we fought hard
over the new constitution and I believe it was enacted ultimately without
approval of the parties involved. It is not finished. Now we are very
unlikely ever to see a nation reneg on entrenched rights so the issue comes
down to how to obtain a balance. Generally the Brits seem to have an easier
time than either of us. But even their citizens are expecting something more
along the American model.

I listen to TEA Party proponents discuss your constitution and it sounds a
lot like they want to do away with the terms while still preserving the
empty carcass. Fine it is a populist movement and the apparatus of democracy
will prevent them from ever carrying it out short of an armed insurrection.
Canada is also protected by an enormous unelected democratic apparatus to
prevent such populist movements from burning down our houses.

But thankfully people like Mat document the conflicts methodically and they
can now be studied.

Both my experience and Mat's have some similarities though I admit I was not
as professional and feebly excuse my sarcasm with the fact that I was also
in extreme pain at the time. Nevertheless The officials temporarily averted
a profoundly imminent disaster. It seems part of this situation has to do
with the way the public has been driven to extremes of fear ahead of time.
The use of fear in politics may be expedient but like Black Magic it comes
back to bite you in the ass. Your public is being unreasonably and
dangerously polarized as I fear is ours as well. Fear was used to justify
the Canadian War Measures act and also your TSA. We should demonstrate
perhaps using some of the concepts of Complexity that any civilian
population bearing high levels of Fear will ultimately engender disastrous
consequences which appear to require even more fear in order to control. It
did not work the first time and why anyone believes more will solve the
problem is beyond me. The psychological trap is believing that fear provides
an authority with control never worked for the Soviets nor Hitler or
Hussein. We know fear is self defeating yet we insist on using it to save
time or effort. If complexity theory could demonstrate that fear when
elevated in Agents results in extraordinarily bad decisions perhaps people
will avoid using it. It is only a hopeful guess. Fear is a lot like alcohol
it promises something and delivers the unexpected when used in excess.

Honestly I do not wish any more guns to be pointed at my head nor at anyone
elses'. But I will demonstrate my disapproval more politely next time.

Thanks Glen. I hope more people are reading your link. It was forecast that
the terrorists only had to make the Americans fearful and they would cause
more damage to themselves than Al Quaeda could ever imagine. No real weapon
was ever required to get Americans to hurt eachother.

Unlike alcohol fear has another peculiar attribute , it seems to
purposefully demand the elimination of reason and critics as a preliminary
step toward rapid expansion. Fear appears to be well cognizant of it's
enemies such as comedians and old geezers with big mouths.

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky
Ph.D.(Civil Eng.), M.Sc.(Mech.Eng.), M.Sc.(Biology)

120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd.
Winnipeg, Manitoba
CANADA R2J 3R2
(204) 2548321 Phone/Fax
[hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of glen e. p. ropella
Sent: November 23, 2010 2:12 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] TSA, security technology, and opting out

Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky wrote circa 10-11-20 04:39 PM:
> If we do not object then we deserve what we get. Now I understand how the
> Jews walked into the death camps without protest. That always struck me as
> out of character. Now our entire society is incapable of protest. The
> psychology of human degradation is very intriguing.

More fodder:

My TSA Encounter
http://noblasters.com/post/1650102322/my-tsa-encounter

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://tempusdictum.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Owen Densmore

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

Administrator

As Tory pointed out, Schneier is great (http://www.schneier.com/). One his recent posts included this:

A short history of airport security: We screen for guns and bombs, so the terrorists use box cutters. We confiscate box cutters and corkscrews, so they put explosives in their sneakers. We screen footwear, so they try to use liquids. We confiscate liquids, so they put PETN bombs in their underwear. We roll out full-body scanners, even though they wouldn’t have caught the Underwear Bomber, so they put a bomb in a printer cartridge. We ban printer cartridges over 16 ounces — the level of magical thinking here is amazing — and they’re going to do something else.
This is a stupid game, and we should stop playing it.

I gotta say, after looking into this stuff, looking at the naked bodies and the "enhanced patdowns" (which Schneier calls a terrorist tactic to get us through the back-scatter device), I'm hoping we return to sanity.

Sez Bruce: Exactly two things have made airplane travel safer since 9/11: reinforcing the cockpit door, and convincing passengers they need to fight back. Everything else has been a waste of money. Add screening of checked bags and airport workers and we’re done. Take all the rest of the money and spend it on investigation and intelligence.

Good way to decrease the deficit!

-- Owen

glen ep ropella

Re: TSA, security technology, and opting out

Owen Densmore wrote circa 10-11-24 10:01 AM:
> Sez Bruce: Exactly two things have made airplane travel safer since
> 9/11: reinforcing the cockpit door, and convincing passengers they
> need to fight back. Everything else has been a waste of money.

I'll pick _that_ nit! ;-) Anything that provides a foil for coming to
terms with how modern technology invades our privacy is _not_ a waste of
money. I often come down on the side of "Screw it. Our privacy is gone
anyway; so why worry about it." (Otherwise, why would I have a Facebook
page?) But there are many who don't feel that way ... and some days I
don't feel that way either.

More importantly, I think the backscatter machines and pat downs present
us with an opportunity to examine how we feel about the risk taking and
benefit/cost spectra. If you pretend they're spaces and cross them, you
can think about the 2D space:

b/c high
^
II | I
|
risk averse <--------> risk prone
|
III | IV
v
c/b high

People in the I quadrant are action oriented and either don't perceive,
don't care, or ignore the costs ... or they're rational and the benefits
actually do outweigh the costs. I'd place Bush II in that category
because he didn't seem to place much weight on the costs of his admin's
actions. I also place sky divers, bungee jumpers, and entrepreneurs,
including morons like myself who try to bootstrap companies, in that
quadrant. ;-)

People in quadrant II are probably inherently good natured and
stereotypically liberal in their thoughts, but conservative in their
actions. Someone like Einstein or Spinoza probably fits that bill. You
can come up with your own examples of where you or others might fit.

The point is that the backscatter machines and pat-down methods (as well
as profiling and whatnot) can all provide context for where one _wants_
to be in that 2D space versus where one _is_ in that 2D space. They are
a concrete situation we can use to orient ourselves ethically. And I
always appreciate tools like that to help me think. Without the actual
implementation bearing down on you, it's easy to chalk it off as
"philosophical" or, at best, a thought experiment. I.e. people who
aren't forced to think, usually don't.

So, it's definitely not a waste of money. Consider it practical
philosophy ... bringing the abstract, obscure, musings of those weirdos
at the EFF and ACLU down to the people, in terms they can understand.

--
glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://tempusdictum.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org