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Strong Typing vs. Strong Testing

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Friam mailing list

Strong Typing vs. Strong Testing

http://mindview.net/WebLog/log-0025

Owen Densmore 451 Camino Don Miguel Santa Fe, NM 87505
Work: 505-983-6305 Cell: 505-570-0168 Home: 505-988-3787
[hidden email] http://complexityworkshop.com http://backspaces.net

Friam mailing list

Strong Typing vs. Strong Testing

Sorry, gotta rant some here about that article.

1. The two (strong typing and strong testing) are
not mutually exclusive.
2. Java is not its syntax, nor is Python.
3. Eckel used to be big on Java Interfaces as a way
of avoiding brittle base classes. I don't understand
why he ignores them here.
4. I have never heard (especially from Eckel) anyone
seriously advocate strong typing as a guarantee of
correctness. Typing and testing are about protocols.
'Follow this protocol and you are guaranteed such and so
benefits'. The programmer makes tradeoffs in deciding
whether following a given protocol is worth the benefits
(and any downside risks). Compilers advertise such
guarantees, but we don't usually expect program correctness
to be one of them. Writing a huge number of unit tests
doesn't necessarily give you correctness either, unless
you can guarantee coverage (and maybe not then).
5. Compilers of course do many things besides
check syntax; One indirect thing is to let
you concentrate on the tests that matter, rather
than duplicating (albeit 'fast' in human terms)
what the compiler can do.

and so Forth. Feel better now.

Carl

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf
Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 7:06 PM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] Strong Typing vs. Strong Testing

http://mindview.net/WebLog/log-0025

Owen Densmore 451 Camino Don Miguel Santa Fe, NM 87505
Work: 505-983-6305 Cell: 505-570-0168 Home: 505-988-3787
[hidden email] http://complexityworkshop.com http://backspaces.net

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe
Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, etc.:
http://www.redfish.com/friam

Friam mailing list

Strong Typing vs. Strong Testing

Agreed on all. But..I think there is a ghost of an idea that most of
us are pursuing now adays about Java being too verbose, generally
perceived due to strong typing or possibly lack of true interpretation.

Indeed, while making my recent tutorials of NetLogo (interpreted,
non-typed) vs RePast, the results were dramatic: Java was 3-4 times as
verbose!! So Python and Logo systems are gaining in popularity, as is
RealBasic and others.

So here's the deal: How can Sun and/or others provide a comfortable
middle ground? Basically a way for a lightly-typed Java-like system
(BeanShell, for example) for quick prototyping using "real Java"
classes and objects?

There are also very simple steps that can be taken to "de-verbose" Java
such as a "forall" enumeration .. which I think is coming out in 1.5,
and a few array/vector built-ins that let you do the equivalent of
"map" and "reduce" (map: do the same thing with all members of a list,
reduce: place a binary operator like + between all list members to add
them all up), and possibly a "cond" operator letting the select/case
operations be dynamic rather than static.

Owen

On Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 12:17 AM, Carl Tollander wrote:

> Sorry, gotta rant some here about that article.
>
> 1. The two (strong typing and strong testing) are
> not mutually exclusive.
> 2. Java is not its syntax, nor is Python.
> 3. Eckel used to be big on Java Interfaces as a way
> of avoiding brittle base classes. I don't understand
> why he ignores them here.
> 4. I have never heard (especially from Eckel) anyone
> seriously advocate strong typing as a guarantee of
> correctness. Typing and testing are about protocols.
> 'Follow this protocol and you are guaranteed such and so
> benefits'. The programmer makes tradeoffs in deciding
> whether following a given protocol is worth the benefits
> (and any downside risks). Compilers advertise such
> guarantees, but we don't usually expect program correctness
> to be one of them. Writing a huge number of unit tests
> doesn't necessarily give you correctness either, unless
> you can guarantee coverage (and maybe not then).
> 5. Compilers of course do many things besides
> check syntax; One indirect thing is to let
> you concentrate on the tests that matter, rather
> than duplicating (albeit 'fast' in human terms)
> what the compiler can do.
>
> and so Forth. Feel better now.
>
> Carl
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf
> Of Owen Densmore
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 7:06 PM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: [FRIAM] Strong Typing vs. Strong Testing
>
>
> http://mindview.net/WebLog/log-0025
>
> Owen Densmore 451 Camino Don Miguel Santa Fe, NM 87505
> Work: 505-983-6305 Cell: 505-570-0168 Home: 505-988-3787
> [hidden email] http://complexityworkshop.com http://backspaces.net
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe
> Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, etc.:
> http://www.redfish.com/friam
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe
> Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, etc.:
> http://www.redfish.com/friam
>

Owen Densmore 451 Camino Don Miguel Santa Fe, NM 87505
Work: 505-983-6305 Cell: 505-570-0168 Home: 505-988-3787
[hidden email] http://complexityworkshop.com http://backspaces.net

Friam mailing list

Strong Typing vs. Strong Testing

Hmmm. Ok, but still,

1. Thinking about protocols and testing, is there not a tradeoff in
keystrokes for the tests (done by the compiler)
that you don't have to write? Yeah, Java is still verbose,
but seen in that light maybe not quite as verbose at the end
of the day. There's time to get a program running, time to defensible
results, and time to maintainable delivery. Depends on what the project
goal is. My own bias would probably give the latter two more weight most of
the time.

As to readability, a concise program is not necessarily a
more human readable one, (and vice-versa).

2. Thinking about the language not being its syntax; the compiler (among
many other things) is turning whatever I write
into bytecodes and the compiler + runtime is factoring out
a lot of the calling overhead, so there's nothing particularly
inefficient about writing my own map or sum methods. Thus
MyMapper.apply(functionobject, collection) would do much of what we want.
One could also envision an Applier interface
that functionobject would implement, so one could say
myfunctionobject.apply(collection). This could lead to a more
applicative style of programming, which you might or might
not want.

It's a good question as to whether its better to have the language spec
enforce that kind of syntactic sugar; on one hand it makes programs more
readable since everybody will do it the same way, on the other hand, it's a
slippery slope where people keep adding things for syntactic convenience
without necessarily adding any additional semantic expressiveness and the
language gets very idiomatic. I dunno what the right answer is.

3. Some of the verbosity makes the program easier to interpret by machines.
For example, a refactoring module in an IDE might have more trouble with a
Python program, since there are fewer syntactic cues.

Carl

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf
Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:08 AM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Strong Typing vs. Strong Testing

Agreed on all. But..I think there is a ghost of an idea that most of
us are pursuing now adays about Java being too verbose, generally
perceived due to strong typing or possibly lack of true interpretation.

Indeed, while making my recent tutorials of NetLogo (interpreted,
non-typed) vs RePast, the results were dramatic: Java was 3-4 times as
verbose!! So Python and Logo systems are gaining in popularity, as is
RealBasic and others.

So here's the deal: How can Sun and/or others provide a comfortable
middle ground? Basically a way for a lightly-typed Java-like system
(BeanShell, for example) for quick prototyping using "real Java"
classes and objects?

There are also very simple steps that can be taken to "de-verbose" Java
such as a "forall" enumeration .. which I think is coming out in 1.5,
and a few array/vector built-ins that let you do the equivalent of
"map" and "reduce" (map: do the same thing with all members of a list,
reduce: place a binary operator like + between all list members to add
them all up), and possibly a "cond" operator letting the select/case
operations be dynamic rather than static.

Owen

On Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 12:17 AM, Carl Tollander wrote:

Friam mailing list

Strong Typing vs. Strong Testing

My $.03 (the extra penny from having worked with interpreted OO languages -
Python, Smalltalk - as well as with rigidly typed ones - C++ & Java): one
(someone else, of course :-) can write buggy, hard to read code in either
type of language, and one can write reliable, easy to read code in either.

But I must say that I side with Carl on this one. I find that the rigid
contracts that strong typing ensures between classes helps me write better
code, and I don't find it to be overly burdensome. In fact, interfaces,
especially if you write them first, can serve as a semi-executable form
of program specifications. Personally, I feel I can write in Java about as
fast as I can in Python or Smalltalk.

In case you didn't notice the subtle but major assumption in Eckel's weblog,
he seems to equate classes with interfaces when he writes of the burden of
strong typing. He undoubtedly knows the difference, having written books
about
Java, but doesn't seem to take the difference into account: without
interfaces
in a single inheritance language like Java, I would agree that making
classes
inherit from an existing class to make it type compatible with existing code
would be too inflexible. But interfaces coupled with delegation gives me all
the flexibility I need.

// Gary

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf
Of Carl Tollander
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 12:17 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Strong Typing vs. Strong Testing

Hmmm. Ok, but still,

1. Thinking about protocols and testing, is there not a tradeoff in
keystrokes for the tests (done by the compiler)
that you don't have to write? Yeah, Java is still verbose,
but seen in that light maybe not quite as verbose at the end
of the day. There's time to get a program running, time to defensible
results, and time to maintainable delivery. Depends on what the project
goal is. My own bias would probably give the latter two more weight most of
the time.

As to readability, a concise program is not necessarily a
more human readable one, (and vice-versa).

2. Thinking about the language not being its syntax; the compiler (among
many other things) is turning whatever I write
into bytecodes and the compiler + runtime is factoring out
a lot of the calling overhead, so there's nothing particularly
inefficient about writing my own map or sum methods. Thus
MyMapper.apply(functionobject, collection) would do much of what we want.
One could also envision an Applier interface
that functionobject would implement, so one could say
myfunctionobject.apply(collection). This could lead to a more
applicative style of programming, which you might or might
not want.

It's a good question as to whether its better to have the language spec
enforce that kind of syntactic sugar; on one hand it makes programs more
readable since everybody will do it the same way, on the other hand, it's a
slippery slope where people keep adding things for syntactic convenience
without necessarily adding any additional semantic expressiveness and the
language gets very idiomatic. I dunno what the right answer is.

3. Some of the verbosity makes the program easier to interpret by machines.
For example, a refactoring module in an IDE might have more trouble with a
Python program, since there are fewer syntactic cues.

Carl

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf
Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:08 AM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Strong Typing vs. Strong Testing

Agreed on all. But..I think there is a ghost of an idea that most of
us are pursuing now adays about Java being too verbose, generally
perceived due to strong typing or possibly lack of true interpretation.

Indeed, while making my recent tutorials of NetLogo (interpreted,
non-typed) vs RePast, the results were dramatic: Java was 3-4 times as
verbose!! So Python and Logo systems are gaining in popularity, as is
RealBasic and others.

So here's the deal: How can Sun and/or others provide a comfortable
middle ground? Basically a way for a lightly-typed Java-like system
(BeanShell, for example) for quick prototyping using "real Java"
classes and objects?

There are also very simple steps that can be taken to "de-verbose" Java
such as a "forall" enumeration .. which I think is coming out in 1.5,
and a few array/vector built-ins that let you do the equivalent of
"map" and "reduce" (map: do the same thing with all members of a list,
reduce: place a binary operator like + between all list members to add
them all up), and possibly a "cond" operator letting the select/case
operations be dynamic rather than static.

Owen

On Saturday, July 12, 2003, at 12:17 AM, Carl Tollander wrote:

Owen Densmore 451 Camino Don Miguel Santa Fe, NM 87505
Work: 505-983-6305 Cell: 505-570-0168 Home: 505-988-3787
[hidden email] http://complexityworkshop.com http://backspaces.net

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe
Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, etc.:
http://www.redfish.com/friam

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe
Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, etc.:
http://www.redfish.com/friam

Friam mailing list

Recognize This?

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------=_NextPart_000_0560_01C34C71.52300500
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Guess what this is:

http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly/JI.doc

If a couple of guesses are ventured, I'll tell what it is.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly 505 995-8715 or 505 =
670-9918 (mobile)
140 Calle Ojo Feliz =
[hidden email] or [hidden email]
Santa Fe, NM 87505 =
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly
------=_NextPart_000_0560_01C34C71.52300500
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1170" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Guess what this is:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly/JI.doc">http://www.andrew=
.cmu.edu/user/wimberly/JI.doc</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If a couple of guesses are ventured, I'll tell what it is.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frank</DIV>
<DIV>---<BR>Frank C.=20
Wimberly          &nbsp=
;            =
           =20
505 995-8715 or 505 670-9918 (mobile)<BR>140 Calle Ojo=20
Feliz           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;         =20
<A href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</A> =
or <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</A><B=
R>Santa=20
Fe, NM=20
87505           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;      =20
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly">http://www.andrew.cmu.ed=
u/user/wimberly</A></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Friam mailing list

Recognize This?

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This is the valle grande in the jemez.

Rdj

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 1:40 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] Recognize This?

Guess what this is:

http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly/JI.doc

If a couple of guesses are ventured, I'll tell what it is.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly 505 995-8715 or 505
670-9918 (mobile)
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
[hidden email] or [hidden email]
Santa Fe, NM 87505
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly

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<html>

<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">

<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 10 (filtered)">

<style>

</style>

</head>

<body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This is the valle grande in the =
jemez.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Rdj</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
[hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of
</span></b>Frank Wimberly<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, July 17, =
2003 1:40
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [hidden email]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [FRIAM] =
Recognize This?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Guess what this is:</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><a
href=3D"http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly/JI.doc">http://www.andrew=
.cmu.edu/user/wimberly/JI.doc</a></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>If a couple of guesses are ventured, I'll =
tell what it
is.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Frank</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>---<br>
Frank C.
Wimberly          &nbsp=
;            =
           
505 995-8715 or 505 670-9918 (mobile)<br>
140 Calle Ojo
Feliz           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;         
<a href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a> =
or <a
href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</a><b=
r>
Santa Fe, NM =
87505           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;      
<a =
href=3D"http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly">http://www.andrew.cmu.ed=
u/user/wimberly</a></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

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Re: Recognize This?

In reply to this post by Friam mailing list

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Carl,

Excellent! One of the factors we want to account for in our wildfire =
work is topography. I downloaded a raster dataset of elevations for the =
Jemez mountain area. I then wrote a Java program to parse the file =
(which involved specifying little endian byte order). I then drew the =
data by associating elevations from black (low) to white (high) along a =
blue-green axis. The whitish area in the center left is Redondo Peak. =
The darker area east of that is Valle Grande. You can see the whole =
caldera very clearly. The little "x" marks are so that I could confirm =
that my mapping from lat,lon pairs to elevations is correct. I found =
the coordinates of 3 peaks on USGS topographic maps and drew the marks =
for those coordiantes on the elevation image.

I wish I had noticed that the word Elevations was there. I would have =
removed it. I was hoping for guesses involving fractals etc.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly 505 995-8715 or 505 =
670-9918 (mobile)
140 Calle Ojo Feliz =
[hidden email] or [hidden email]
Santa Fe, NM 87505 =
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1170" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV>Carl,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Excellent!  One of the factors we want to account for in our =
wildfire=20
work is topography.  I downloaded a raster dataset of elevations =
for the=20
Jemez mountain area.  I then wrote a Java program to parse the file =
(which=20
involved specifying little endian byte order).  I then drew the =
data by=20
associating elevations from black (low) to white (high) along a =
blue-green=20
axis.  The whitish area in the center left is Redondo Peak.  =
The=20
darker area east of that is Valle Grande.  You can see the whole =
caldera=20
very clearly.  The little "x" marks are so that I could confirm =
that my=20
mapping from lat,lon pairs to elevations is correct.  I found the=20
coordinates of 3 peaks on USGS topographic maps and drew the =
marks for=20
those coordiantes on the elevation image.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I wish I had noticed that the word Elevations was there.  I =
would have=20
removed it.  I was hoping for guesses involving fractals etc.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frank</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>---<BR>Frank C.=20
Wimberly          &nbsp=
;            =
           =20
505 995-8715 or 505 670-9918 (mobile)<BR>140 Calle Ojo=20
Feliz           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;         =20
<A href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</A> =
or <A=20
href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</A><B=
R>Santa=20
Fe, NM=20
87505           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;      =20
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly">http://www.andrew.cmu.ed=
u/user/wimberly</A></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Retina?

But given the window title, Robert and I (sitting together) are guessing its
the Jemez Valle Caldera....

____________________________________________________
http://www.redfish.com [hidden email]
624 Agua Fria Street office: (505)995-0206
Santa Fe, NM 87501 mobile: (505)577-5828

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of
Frank Wimberly
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:40 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] Recognize This?

Guess what this is:

http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly/JI.doc

If a couple of guesses are ventured, I'll tell what it is.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly 505 995-8715 or 505
670-9918 (mobile)
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
[hidden email] or [hidden email]
Santa Fe, NM 87505
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1141" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D772312421-17072003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Retina?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D772312421-17072003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D772312421-17072003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>But=20
given the window title, Robert and I (sitting together) are guessing its =
the=20
Jemez Valle Caldera....</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT =
size=3D2>____________________________________________________<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.redfish.com/"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.redfish.com</A>   =20
[hidden email]<BR>624 Agua Fria =
Street     =20
office: (505)995-0206<BR>Santa Fe, NM=20
87501        mobile: (505)577-5828=20
</FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
[hidden email]=20
[mailto:[hidden email]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Frank=20
Wimberly<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:40 PM<BR><B>To:</B> =

[hidden email]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [FRIAM] Recognize=20
This?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Guess what this is:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly/JI.doc">http://www.andrew=
.cmu.edu/user/wimberly/JI.doc</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If a couple of guesses are ventured, I'll tell what it is.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frank</DIV>
<DIV>---<BR>Frank C.=20
=
Wimberly          &nbsp=
;            =
           =20
505 995-8715 or 505 670-9918 (mobile)<BR>140 Calle Ojo=20
=
Feliz           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;         =20
<A href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</A> =
or <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</A><B=
R>Santa=20
Fe, NM=20
=
87505           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;      =20
<A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly">http://www.andrew.cmu.ed=
u/user/wimberly</A></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Friam mailing list

Recognize This?

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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The more I look at this the more it looks like a six-toed footprint.
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of
Stephen Guerin
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 3:27 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Recognize This?

Retina?

But given the window title, Robert and I (sitting together) are guessing
its the Jemez Valle Caldera....

____________________________________________________
http://www.redfish.com [hidden email]
624 Agua Fria Street office: (505)995-0206
Santa Fe, NM 87501 mobile: (505)577-5828

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf
Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:40 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] Recognize This?

Guess what this is:

http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly/JI.doc

If a couple of guesses are ventured, I'll tell what it is.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly 505 995-8715 or 505
670-9918 (mobile)
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
[hidden email] or [hidden email]
Santa Fe, NM 87505
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2715.400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D429355006-18072003><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The=20
more I look at this the more it looks like a six-toed=20
footprint.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
[hidden email]=20
[mailto:[hidden email]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Stephen=20
Guerin<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, July 17, 2003 3:27 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[hidden email]<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [FRIAM] Recognize=20
This?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D772312421-17072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Retina?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D772312421-17072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D772312421-17072003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>But=20
given the window title, Robert and I (sitting together) are guessing =
its the=20
Jemez Valle Caldera....</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT =
size=3D2>____________________________________________________<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.redfish.com/"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.redfish.com</A>   =20
[hidden email]<BR>624 Agua Fria=20
Street      office: (505)995-0206<BR>Santa =
Fe, NM=20
87501        mobile: (505)577-5828=20
</FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
[hidden email]=20
[mailto:[hidden email]]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Frank=20
Wimberly<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, July 17, 2003 2:40 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
[hidden email]<BR><B>Subject:</B> [FRIAM] Recognize=20
This?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Guess what this is:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly/JI.doc">http://www.andrew=
.cmu.edu/user/wimberly/JI.doc</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If a couple of guesses are ventured, I'll tell what it =
is.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frank</DIV>
<DIV>---<BR>Frank C.=20
=
Wimberly          &nbsp=
;            =
           =20
505 995-8715 or 505 670-9918 (mobile)<BR>140 Calle Ojo=20
=
Feliz           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;         =20
<A =
href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</A> or =
<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</A><B=
R>Santa=20
Fe, NM=20
=
87505           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;      =20
<A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly">http://www.andrew.cmu.ed=
u/user/wimberly</A></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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