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Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

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Owen Densmore

Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

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I love it. The Elites are getting hammered. Snobocracy is now so visible that it can be attacked for what it really is.

http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/

This was also referred to by this:

http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/

I love a good rant! Liberal Elites lost the election. Oh, wait, maybe we *are* LEs?

-- Owen

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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

cody dooderson

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

Sorry, but I found the first article very disturbing. It seems like an opinion piece that might have come out during the rise of the Nazi party. It blames the 'parasitic educated' class, praises the virtues of the military service, and argues in favor racial segregation.

My very shallow reading on the rise of the Nazi party led me to believe that they had a very similar platform.

Cody Smith

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

I love it. The Elites are getting hammered. Snobocracy is now so visible that it can be attacked for what it really is.

http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/

This was also referred to by this:
http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/

I love a good rant! Liberal Elites lost the election. Oh, wait, maybe we *are* LEs?

-- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

gepr

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

On 12/01/2016 10:11 AM, cody dooderson wrote:
> Sorry, but I found the first article very disturbing. It seems like an opinion piece that might have come out during the rise of the Nazi party. It blames the 'parasitic educated' class, praises the virtues of the military service, and argues in favor racial segregation.
> My very shallow reading on the rise of the Nazi party led me to believe that they had a very similar platform.

+1

On a slight tangent: I'm still confused about why so many feel compelled to prefix "elite" with "liberal". If this were really about anti-elitism, we'd see just as much silly spewage toward buffoons like Trump (who just knows better -- trust him -- he's the only one who can make america great again). Despite my confusion, I'm inclined to believe it's because only really lazy people yap incoherently about "elitism." The rest of us work our butts off to specialize ... elite machinists, elite cowboys, elite bow hunters, elite beer drinkers ... I am an elite. But I'm not a liberal. So, the bias(es) inherent in articles like this are blatantly obvious.

> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> I love it. The Elites are getting hammered. Snobocracy is now so visible that it can be attacked for what it really is.
>
> http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/ <http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/>
>
> This was also referred to by this:
> http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/ <http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/>
>
> I love a good rant! Liberal Elites lost the election. Oh, wait, maybe we *are* LEs?

--
␦glen?

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

The Clinton state voters aren’t parasitic, they contribute more to the economy and are more productive than the Trump state voters. See my other post on this for the numbers.

This article I found fairly interesting -- various scholars debate the nature of the Democrat vs. Republican “moral sense”. It seems to me the “fast thinking” is consistent with a heavy reliance on moral guidelines, and that deliberative thinking involves having less reliance on `collective memory’. Instead, the use of reason and situational ethics.

Haidt argues the dimensions of morality include fairness/reciprocity, harm/care, ingroup/loyalty, authority/respect and purity/sanctity and the broad set of features that Republican voters tend to favor.

The others after fairness are mechanisms for maintaining small group integrity and strong control systems. Neoliberals really focus on fairness and the rest of the items are deemed redundant (but bleeding heart liberals also bring in the `care’ dimension). To liberals, the others are not essential (and potentially disruptive) to a large, growing economy.

Trump’s team did expertly exploit and continue to exploit the latter moral dimensions. The white nationalist stuff, appealing to evangelicals, deporting immigrants, the tweet about flag burning, bringing billionaires into the administration, and so on.

I like the idea of using the environment as a unifying moral principle for folks on the left. That makes a lot of sense.

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 10:27 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: [FRIAM] Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

I love it. The Elites are getting hammered. Snobocracy is now so visible that it can be attacked for what it really is.

http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/

This was also referred to by this:

http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/

I love a good rant! Liberal Elites lost the election. Oh, wait, maybe we *are* LEs?

-- Owen

Gillian Densmore

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

In reply to this post by gepr

My German friends who's countery to this day is still recovering from Hitler. Those people at least outright said America has got to pull together somehow. The best way to undermine the fear Giano, Drumpf, Fox news, and CNN propogate is to counter it with upbeat things, and the truth.

The sooner we make it cool to go to dances and (frankly) not give a crap about the skin tone of your dance parntner (for example) the faster you can take power from these frankly Xenophobes.

They see someone in fancy regalia with a turbine chanting in a at least to me super cool sounding language and SOME react with fear. I being a Zen Buhdist that had the grew up on Skunworks with people that were clay colored rolled their R's and told great jokes They made kick ass programers., and skunks at least in my experience. Some of these people in wearing stuff that look like it's from Starwars have a ritual 3? or is it 4? times a day to go chant to their prohets, and praise their warriors. I see Cody and Marcos not as itallian or Latina but as friends. We're gamers. Play Pokemon Go, and perplex wedtech with out interest in it.

Back when I was a intern skunk at sun their was a kick ass guy named Baffar (however that was spelled) . He also did some contract work with Standfords Skunk Systems

Baffar and his SO rocked, Baffar, was a hire from Dad. He kicked ass. I didn't care at all that he had tan, rolled his R's and lisp to his eyes and H's. Come to think of it I didn't ask much about his coulture. As far as I was concerned he was a friend and work colllegue.

-Stop pointing fingers (unduly) I admit to doing this as well. For one thing WHO. CARES. Where (some) of America's Xenophia came from.

The important thing to do now is figure out frankly fun ways to stop it.. Their is no honor it. It is not helping ANYONE.

-American's have got to admit they are doing a realy REALY bad job of Comradery. Their are some exceptions. This list might be one.

-We need to stop saying and get out of this bullshit of oh my god it's the Dems fault for the 99 issues. Oh it's the green, purple grey or orange party. I've said it before. It's worth repeating again: My fucked health care system realy, REALY doesn't give a shit what party were enough assholes to have a pile of shit health care system.

I'm sorry someone that's a dick. Is just someone that's a giant dick.

-Voting was low this presidential election for many reasons. I'll be blunt the system, and their for people rallied around two terrible picks: One person is a neurotic, sociopathic, xenophic asshole. The other was polotics as usual who's polotical ideals have failed so far. Another four years wouldn't change one fucking thing.

-I hate to say it their's a large part of the midwest and south that see blacks as housemades and words I'd get my ass kicked for using. They didn't see Obama as a man attempting to resolve at least 12 years worth of assholery, and horribly horrible failed plans, with no infrastructure, and a god awful education system

They saw hime as a____ and oh fuck how'd a ____ get to be president, what're my kids gona due! What if my sone falls for that sexy ____ in his class! we'll have bi-cultural kids!

-America's maslow is fucked. If you don't the maslow system: food housing basics MUST be consisantly meatable before ANYTHING else can get done. Zyg Zigler(sp) proposed when someones needs are not met, they snap. So this election was a knee jerk about a whole bunch of people who felt powerless to get there basics met.

-America's economy since 2005-2008 or so has been terrible every sane measure has shown it just does not work.

-As far as I can tell America is one of the few, if not only countery that does not actively promote comradery. Again their's exceptions. FRIAM is one. But those are the exceptions. If people can't reach out to a system for a set of saftey nets. Of course they'll snap and have blind rage at the system. It's just a question of how they'll snap, and when.

-Do we realy need very expensive studies to show that extending basic common sense and honor to your fellow humans is a good thing?

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 11:22 AM, ┣glen┫ <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 12/01/2016 10:11 AM, cody dooderson wrote:
> Sorry, but I found the first article very disturbing. It seems like an opinion piece that might have come out during the rise of the Nazi party. It blames the 'parasitic educated' class, praises the virtues of the military service, and argues in favor racial segregation.
> My very shallow reading on the rise of the Nazi party led me to believe that they had a very similar platform.

+1

On a slight tangent: I'm still confused about why so many feel compelled to prefix "elite" with "liberal". If this were really about anti-elitism, we'd see just as much silly spewage toward buffoons like Trump (who just knows better -- trust him -- he's the only one who can make america great again). Despite my confusion, I'm inclined to believe it's because only really lazy people yap incoherently about "elitism." The rest of us work our butts off to specialize ... elite machinists, elite cowboys, elite bow hunters, elite beer drinkers ... I am an elite. But I'm not a liberal. So, the bias(es) inherent in articles like this are blatantly obvious.

> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> I love it. The Elites are getting hammered. Snobocracy is now so visible that it can be attacked for what it really is.
>
> http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/ <http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/>
>
> This was also referred to by this:
> http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/ <http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/>
>
> I love a good rant! Liberal Elites lost the election. Oh, wait, maybe we *are* LEs?

--
␦glen?

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Eric Charles-2

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

In reply to this post by gepr

Glen,

The style matters. Oddly quite a bit. "Liberal elitism" is snobbish, aloof, and patronizing. Note, it is not the way in which they are "elite", but the "elitism" that rankles the most. Trump's financial-elite bull-in-a-china-shop schtick looks and feels very different, and there are many people who would much rather deal with it. Bill Clinton was a friggin' Rhodes scholar, but connected with everyday Americans, and wasn't, until he sought to get so aggressively dynastic, at risk of the "liberal elite" label. I've not heard it leveled at Carter either. On the other hand, Gore and Kerry reeked of it, and that was part of their problem.

As the article says towards the end:

" “High information” people ignore evidence if it conflicts with their preferred narrative all the time. And while it may be naïve for voters to believe the promises of Trump and the Brexit campaigners — it has also been profoundly naïve for the cosmopolitan classes to believe that years of forced internationalism and forced political correctness were never going to end with a large scale backlash."

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician

U.S. Marine Corps

[hidden email]

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 1:22 PM, ┣glen┫ <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 12/01/2016 10:11 AM, cody dooderson wrote:
> Sorry, but I found the first article very disturbing. It seems like an opinion piece that might have come out during the rise of the Nazi party. It blames the 'parasitic educated' class, praises the virtues of the military service, and argues in favor racial segregation.
> My very shallow reading on the rise of the Nazi party led me to believe that they had a very similar platform.

+1

On a slight tangent: I'm still confused about why so many feel compelled to prefix "elite" with "liberal". If this were really about anti-elitism, we'd see just as much silly spewage toward buffoons like Trump (who just knows better -- trust him -- he's the only one who can make america great again). Despite my confusion, I'm inclined to believe it's because only really lazy people yap incoherently about "elitism." The rest of us work our butts off to specialize ... elite machinists, elite cowboys, elite bow hunters, elite beer drinkers ... I am an elite. But I'm not a liberal. So, the bias(es) inherent in articles like this are blatantly obvious.

> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> I love it. The Elites are getting hammered. Snobocracy is now so visible that it can be attacked for what it really is.
>
> http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/ <http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/>
>
> This was also referred to by this:
> http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/ <http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/>
>
> I love a good rant! Liberal Elites lost the election. Oh, wait, maybe we *are* LEs?

--
␦glen?

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

gepr

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

In reply to this post by Gillian Densmore

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But we have to be careful with our demographics. I would bet that most of the people who voted for Trump _have_ their basic needs met! Granted, they may be worried about whether they _will_ have their basic needs met in the near or far future. But for now, their needs are met.

Of course, Maslow's also talks about climbing the pyramid towards self-actualization. Those with their basic needs met are more powerful and more capable of going to the next level. If those who voted for Trump see the huddled masses as an obstacle to their rise to the next level in the pyramid, they will do everything they can to stomp on the heads of said huddled masses in order to move up the hierarchy.

On 12/01/2016 10:58 AM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
> -America's maslow is fucked. If you don't the maslow system: food housing basics MUST be consisantly meatable before ANYTHING else can get done. Zyg Zigler(sp) proposed when someones needs are not met, they snap. So this election was a knee jerk about a whole bunch of people who felt powerless to get there basics met.

--
␦glen?

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

In reply to this post by Eric Charles-2

“High information” people ignore evidence if it conflicts with their preferred narrative all the time.

Sometimes evidence is wrong or misinterpreted – sometimes a theory is needed to put evidence into context. That’s not ignoring evidence, that’s seeking even more information and a better framework to understand it. Of course, I can just respond to an assertion with another..

And that there could be a backlash to internationalization doesn’t mean it is rational, just that someone seeking to advance an open economy should have been aware it was a political risk and prepared better to avoid it.

Marcus

Pamela McCorduck

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

In reply to this post by Eric Charles-2

I found the article just silly. Yes, the comparison between Thinking Fast and Thinking Slow is apt. Maybe we should call the Trumpists “trigger finger voters” and the Clinton voters, “think before you pull the trigger” voters.

Also apt, to this student (and survivor) of WW II are the parallels between what Trump has said, and what the rising Hitler said, and how their followers behaved as a consequence. I took particular issue with “the ripping of the social fabric by immigration”—especially since my family and I, and my husband and his family, were immigrants.

A visit to the Jerusalem show at the Metropolitan Museum of Art tells you how Jerusalem at its height (1100-1500) was one of the great cities of the world, because it was deeply and widely multicultural (yes, the three major religions, but dozens of sects in each of them). Shut down the immigrants and the merchants go away. Drive the merchants away and the place begins to decline.

Am I elite? You bet. I worked my ass off in college—I put myself through a first-rate university, worked in a low-paying clerical job for a few more years (because that was the only job path open to women, no matter how well educated they were), then went to an Ivy graduate school. I earned my elite status, and I was very lucky in the bargain.

I vote for school bonds that no children of mine will ever need, because I think it’s for the greater good. I pay extra taxes to support Medicare, and I do it willingly, though I would much rather see not a reform of Medicare, but a reform of the entire medical system.

But hey, we have a real-time experiment coming up. Let’s just see how much better the country is under a Trump executive and a Republican Congress.

On Dec 1, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

Glen,
The style matters. Oddly quite a bit. "Liberal elitism" is snobbish, aloof, and patronizing. Note, it is not the way in which they are "elite", but the "elitism" that rankles the most. Trump's financial-elite bull-in-a-china-shop schtick looks and feels very different, and there are many people who would much rather deal with it. Bill Clinton was a friggin' Rhodes scholar, but connected with everyday Americans, and wasn't, until he sought to get so aggressively dynastic, at risk of the "liberal elite" label. I've not heard it leveled at Carter either. On the other hand, Gore and Kerry reeked of it, and that was part of their problem.

As the article says towards the end:
" “High information” people ignore evidence if it conflicts with their preferred narrative all the time. And while it may be naïve for voters to believe the promises of Trump and the Brexit campaigners — it has also been profoundly naïve for the cosmopolitan classes to believe that years of forced internationalism and forced political correctness were never going to end with a large scale backlash."

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician
U.S. Marine Corps
[hidden email]

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 1:22 PM, ┣glen┫ <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 12/01/2016 10:11 AM, cody dooderson wrote:
> Sorry, but I found the first article very disturbing. It seems like an opinion piece that might have come out during the rise of the Nazi party. It blames the 'parasitic educated' class, praises the virtues of the military service, and argues in favor racial segregation.
> My very shallow reading on the rise of the Nazi party led me to believe that they had a very similar platform.

+1

On a slight tangent: I'm still confused about why so many feel compelled to prefix "elite" with "liberal". If this were really about anti-elitism, we'd see just as much silly spewage toward buffoons like Trump (who just knows better -- trust him -- he's the only one who can make america great again). Despite my confusion, I'm inclined to believe it's because only really lazy people yap incoherently about "elitism." The rest of us work our butts off to specialize ... elite machinists, elite cowboys, elite bow hunters, elite beer drinkers ... I am an elite. But I'm not a liberal. So, the bias(es) inherent in articles like this are blatantly obvious.

> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> I love it. The Elites are getting hammered. Snobocracy is now so visible that it can be attacked for what it really is.
>
> http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/ <http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/>
>
> This was also referred to by this:
> http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/ <http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/>
>
> I love a good rant! Liberal Elites lost the election. Oh, wait, maybe we *are* LEs?

--
␦glen?

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

In reply to this post by Eric Charles-2

To the Congregation,

Canada has recently thrown out a crony conservative party replaced by a supposedly more moderate liberal party.
But very recently we have become alarmed by their behavior, they presume to be speaking on the constituents behalf.
We ask where those ideas came from in stunned disbelief, only to here it is the overwhelming consensus.
Since when did consensus have so many interpretations?
This has been puzzling, and seems to forecast what Trump's legions are expected to do.
How on earth could a Canadian Liberal Party accidentally have the same behavior as
an American Right Wing Republican party. In both cases they are mistaking their own voices for that of the public's voice.

This does not appear to be a political issue any longer but rather a coincidence of narcissistic psychopathy. In some sense even the democrats
may have been entranced by their own voices. There have now been numerous insinuations that people are living in an information bubble
dispensing appealing nonsense and outright lies. This is not typical for either country and I suspect the British are doing the same.

All three countries are moving along parallel vectors. And the pundits have different and unique explanations for each country.
And they never happen to listen to eachother.
I suspect we are entering an era of failed or limping democracies for the want of reality checks.
Now the French seem to be cooking up something bitter. Are we all going mad after so much optimistic delusionary deceit.
British citizens are also demanding jail time for Tony Blair.

It is much more than one country's peculiar problem or so methinks.
From my point of view it did seem like it would not have made much difference whichever candidate had won
in any of our countries.
Perhaps these elites all share an aversion to reality. Such as stage performers who despise theatre critics.
vib

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ?glen?
Sent: December-01-16 1:28 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

Well, sure. But, speaking for myself, I see plenty of snobbish, aloof, and patronizing expression in the speech and action of people like Richard Spencer and Mencius Moldbug (Curtis Yarvin) -- and the intellectuals they tend to fawn over. Hell, Ayn Rand has a huge dose of it, too. To go even further, hang out amongst any elite group for awhile, and you'll notice how they treat "noobs". While most domains (e.g. martial arts or programming, say) have a nice dose of mentors and teachers, who treat novices earnestly, there's _always_ a large contingent of the elite in that domain that treat novices the same way you're describing.

So what? Being a novice in any domain is difficult. But you don't run around complaining about how snobbish the elite swimmers are. You swim! You improve. Then when you become competitive, you haze the novices just like you were hazed.

Conservatives who yap about "liberal elitism" are just expressing their _entitlement_. They want you to take them seriously even though they haven't put in any effort. They want a trophy just for showing up.

On 12/01/2016 11:12 AM, Eric Charles wrote:
> The style matters. Oddly quite a bit. "Liberal elitism" is snobbish, aloof, and patronizing. Note, it is not the way in which they are "elite", but the "elitism" that rankles the most. Trump's financial-elite bull-in-a-china-shop schtick looks and feels very different, and there are many people who would much rather deal with it. Bill Clinton was a friggin' Rhodes scholar, but connected with everyday Americans, and wasn't, until he sought to get so aggressively dynastic, at risk of the "liberal elite" label. I've not heard it leveled at Carter either. On the other hand, Gore and Kerry reeked of it, and that was part of their problem.
>
> As the article says towards the end:
> " “High information” people ignore evidence if it conflicts with their preferred narrative /all the time./ And while it may be naïve for voters to believe the promises of Trump and the Brexit campaigners — it has also been profoundly naïve for the cosmopolitan classes to believe that years of forced internationalism and forced political correctness were never going to end with a large scale backlash."

--
␦glen?

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

gepr

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

It still seems clear to me that the problem lies in the (overzealous) attribution [*] of systemic properties based on flimsy or nonexistent patterns in the collection of individuals. The (false) attribution of consensus is similar to that of a political mandate after winning an election. This is one reason the US electoral college isn't a bad idea (as far as ideas absent practicalities go). It's equally silly to hook the fate of a country, or the world, on a tiny symmetry break like winning the popular vote by 0.000001%

What we need are _multiple_, heterogeneous, ways of deriving the policies and actions of the whole from its parts. Such ways have to mimic biology (I think) in being polyphenic and robust, multiple phenotypes from the same genotype(s) and one phenotype from multiple genotypes, respectively. Regardless (unlike typical proportional representation systems), the ways should be based on data taken (via methodologically well-founded measures) from the world, not arbitrarily justificationist ideas farted out by our minds.

Such a science-based politics would better match the cognitive referent of "democracy" in most people, I think.

[*] B.C.Smith called this "premature registration" or "inscription error", a common and insidious fallacy typical to simulation efforts ... which is the only reason I know about it. 8^)

On 12/01/2016 08:56 PM, Vladimyr Burachynsky wrote:
> Since when did consensus have so many interpretations?
> [...]
> This does not appear to be a political issue any longer but rather a coincidence of narcissistic psychopathy.

--
␦glen?

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

"Regardless (unlike typical proportional representation systems), the ways should be based on data taken (via methodologically well-founded measures) from the world, not arbitrarily justificationist ideas farted out by our minds."

I reckon that states' rights are really about allowing for more and different kinds of the latter, e.g. more local warlords, organizations like the KKK, etc. -- none of which that have measurable benefits to the full set of people in their vicinity but are nonetheless trotted-out as essential freedoms or prerequisites to civil society.

Marcus
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gepr

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

I'd agree. Like with Gillian's recent comment about basic needs satisfaction, a common problem in all of this is the [in]accuracy of self-reporting. This video states it well enough:

Why Socrates hated Democracy
https://youtu.be/fLJBzhcSWTk

"I cause you trouble and go against your desires in order to help you." Wants are never identical with needs and what we say we want/need is probably never identical with what we actually want/need, respectively. And if we layer Vladimyr's [in]accuracy of what someone says about others' wants/needs, we get even further from reality.

We could try a parallax approach, though ... divide the whole into parts by multiple (different) methods (state, county, demographic, ...) and use something akin to Kullback-Leibler to constrain a set of "common models", perhaps in the context of a reference set of policies (environment, gun control, pot legalization, ...). Even if such an method for consensus were merely self-reported opinion, it might at least be a bit more robust, even though it's still phenomenological.

On 12/02/2016 11:26 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I reckon that states' rights are really about allowing for more and different kinds of the latter, e.g. more local warlords, organizations like the KKK, etc. -- none of which that have measurable benefits to the full set of people in their vicinity but are nonetheless trotted-out as essential freedoms or prerequisites to civil society.

--
☣ glen

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Roger Critchlow-2

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 2:56 PM, glen ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

We could try a parallax approach, though ... divide the whole into parts by multiple (different) methods (state, county, demographic, ...) and use something akin to Kullback-Leibler to constrain a set of "common models", perhaps in the context of a reference set of policies (environment, gun control, pot legalization, ...). Even if such an method for consensus were merely self-reported opinion, it might at least be a bit more robust, even though it's still phenomenological.

That reminds me, I wanted a database of local governments covering the whole world, the civic problems they face, the solutions they implement, how effective it all is, and what it costs. Then we bin them up by population and density, see who wins, give prizes, publicize, and repeat. Local politics as reality TV.

-- rec --

David Eric Smith

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

Roger, hi,

It isn’t a databse of local governments, but there is such an effort for local NGOs which grow out of thoroughly-understood problems, and which have non-nonsense urgent motives to solve the problems. Paul Hawken has a book summarizing part of this, and I believe there is a database that he maintains (or did a few years ago when I read the book)

http://www.blessedunrest.com/

All best,

Eric

> On Dec 2, 2016, at 3:45 PM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2016 at 2:56 PM, glen ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> We could try a parallax approach, though ... divide the whole into parts by multiple (different) methods (state, county, demographic, ...) and use something akin to Kullback-Leibler to constrain a set of "common models", perhaps in the context of a reference set of policies (environment, gun control, pot legalization, ...). Even if such an method for consensus were merely self-reported opinion, it might at least be a bit more robust, even though it's still phenomenological.
>
> That reminds me, I wanted a database of local governments covering the whole world, the civic problems they face, the solutions they implement, how effective it all is, and what it costs. Then we bin them up by population and density, see who wins, give prizes, publicize, and repeat. Local politics as reality TV.
>
> -- rec --
>
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David Eric Smith

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

In reply to this post by Pamela McCorduck

This seems right to me, Pamela,

It also seems appropriate to learn the history of Weimar better, and I don’t know very much about it.

A key point seems to be that the Germans didn’t suddenly wake up in the 1930s and decide to adopt a totalitarian state and exterminate millions of people, driving millions more into exile, and decimating their society. That particular insanity grew out of a more severe depression than the American one of the same decade, and the German depression, if I understand, was driven by a combination of economic and political incompetence and corruption which instigated several years of disastrous hyperinflation, as well as political and social turmoil, with some of the early specific moves made around 1919. (Of course, given the situation at the time, I expect some of those choices in turn seemed inexorably driven by outcomes of the first World War, but that is even further into the depth of my ignorance.) Keeping the scope of this paragraph with Weimar, there were two decades of bad-to-worse, and I imagine a great many people could not see why there were not choices for them, except to participate in the descent because they didn’t see ways to escape from it or to change it.

These things have history and they have lock-in effects that we wrongly term “inertia". Behavior, institutions, and law interlock; they change jointly, and it can be hard to fix one part when it is held in place by the others that are broken.

If we elect people who would be at home in the governments of the Philippines or Zimbabwe, and we accept the undermining of law and institutions for the sake of the same extractive aims at work in any number of places, I don’t see why people think they will somehow be magically protected from having the same outcome; such a belief seems to me intellectually out-to-lunch.

Eric

> On Dec 1, 2016, at 5:14 PM, Pamela McCorduck <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I found the article just silly. Yes, the comparison between Thinking Fast and Thinking Slow is apt. Maybe we should call the Trumpists “trigger finger voters” and the Clinton voters, “think before you pull the trigger” voters.
>
> Also apt, to this student (and survivor) of WW II are the parallels between what Trump has said, and what the rising Hitler said, and how their followers behaved as a consequence. I took particular issue with “the ripping of the social fabric by immigration”—especially since my family and I, and my husband and his family, were immigrants.
>
> A visit to the Jerusalem show at the Metropolitan Museum of Art tells you how Jerusalem at its height (1100-1500) was one of the great cities of the world, because it was deeply and widely multicultural (yes, the three major religions, but dozens of sects in each of them). Shut down the immigrants and the merchants go away. Drive the merchants away and the place begins to decline.
>
> Am I elite? You bet. I worked my ass off in college—I put myself through a first-rate university, worked in a low-paying clerical job for a few more years (because that was the only job path open to women, no matter how well educated they were), then went to an Ivy graduate school. I earned my elite status, and I was very lucky in the bargain.
>
> I vote for school bonds that no children of mine will ever need, because I think it’s for the greater good. I pay extra taxes to support Medicare, and I do it willingly, though I would much rather see not a reform of Medicare, but a reform of the entire medical system.
>
> But hey, we have a real-time experiment coming up. Let’s just see how much better the country is under a Trump executive and a Republican Congress.
>
>
>
>
>> On Dec 1, 2016, at 12:12 PM, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Glen,
>> The style matters. Oddly quite a bit. "Liberal elitism" is snobbish, aloof, and patronizing. Note, it is not the way in which they are "elite", but the "elitism" that rankles the most. Trump's financial-elite bull-in-a-china-shop schtick looks and feels very different, and there are many people who would much rather deal with it. Bill Clinton was a friggin' Rhodes scholar, but connected with everyday Americans, and wasn't, until he sought to get so aggressively dynastic, at risk of the "liberal elite" label. I've not heard it leveled at Carter either. On the other hand, Gore and Kerry reeked of it, and that was part of their problem.
>>
>> As the article says towards the end:
>> " “High information” people ignore evidence if it conflicts with their preferred narrative all the time. And while it may be naïve for voters to believe the promises of Trump and the Brexit campaigners — it has also been profoundly naïve for the cosmopolitan classes to believe that years of forced internationalism and forced political correctness were never going to end with a large scale backlash."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----------
>> Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
>> Supervisory Survey Statistician
>> U.S. Marine Corps
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 1:22 PM, ┣glen┫ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 12/01/2016 10:11 AM, cody dooderson wrote:
>> > Sorry, but I found the first article very disturbing. It seems like an opinion piece that might have come out during the rise of the Nazi party. It blames the 'parasitic educated' class, praises the virtues of the military service, and argues in favor racial segregation.
>> > My very shallow reading on the rise of the Nazi party led me to believe that they had a very similar platform.
>>
>> +1
>>
>> On a slight tangent: I'm still confused about why so many feel compelled to prefix "elite" with "liberal". If this were really about anti-elitism, we'd see just as much silly spewage toward buffoons like Trump (who just knows better -- trust him -- he's the only one who can make america great again). Despite my confusion, I'm inclined to believe it's because only really lazy people yap incoherently about "elitism." The rest of us work our butts off to specialize ... elite machinists, elite cowboys, elite bow hunters, elite beer drinkers ... I am an elite. But I'm not a liberal. So, the bias(es) inherent in articles like this are blatantly obvious.
>>
>>
>> > On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I love it. The Elites are getting hammered. Snobocracy is now so visible that it can be attacked for what it really is.
>> >
>> > http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/ <http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/>
>> >
>> > This was also referred to by this:
>> > http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/ <http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/>
>> >
>> > I love a good rant! Liberal Elites lost the election. Oh, wait, maybe we *are* LEs?
>>
>>
>> --
>> ␦glen?
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>
>> ============================================================
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>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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>
> ============================================================
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/03/opinion/sunday/why-blue-states-are-the-real-tea-party.html?&moduleDetail=section-news-0&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=Blogs

Why Blue States Are the Real ‘Tea Party’

www.nytimes.com

Progressive urban areas pay more taxes and have less voting power than rural ones.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 10:27:23 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

I love it. The Elites are getting hammered. Snobocracy is now so visible that it can be attacked for what it really is.

http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/

This was also referred to by this:

http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/

I love a good rant! Liberal Elites lost the election. Oh, wait, maybe we *are* LEs?

-- Owen

Roger Critchlow-2

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

https://medium.com/@Richard_Florida/the-most-disruptive-transformation-in-history-80a50ef89b4d#.7grm8x0r1

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/03/opinion/sunday/why-blue-states-are-the-real-tea-party.html?&moduleDetail=section-news-0&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=Blogs

Why Blue States Are the Real ‘Tea Party’

www.nytimes.com

Progressive urban areas pay more taxes and have less voting power than rural ones.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 10:27:23 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

I love it. The Elites are getting hammered. Snobocracy is now so visible that it can be attacked for what it really is.

http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/

This was also referred to by this:

http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/

I love a good rant! Liberal Elites lost the election. Oh, wait, maybe we *are* LEs?

-- Owen

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

"We need a strategy and a system where these two Americas can live peaceably beside one another, and where each can undertake the investments and shape the safety nets and other policy measures they need."

I don't have a problem with subsidizing rural America, but the reason to do it shouldn't be because states like Wyoming voters have a 3/1 impact in the electoral college. It should be because there is a reason to keep people out in the middle of nowhere -- like how New Mexico benefits from a huge influx of defense-related spending.

Rural America will have less of a safety net without the federal government taxing the cities. Either we can help folks that are prepared to disengage from less productive communities -- and ensure adequate resources are provided to those that stay for performing their essential functions -- or we can just let the free market run its course. Unfortunately what we got was third option where individuals in underperforming parts of the economy seized power so that they can just take what they want the from the commons. (Or so they were told.)

Marcus

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 12:47:10 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

https://medium.com/@Richard_Florida/the-most-disruptive-transformation-in-history-80a50ef89b4d#.7grm8x0r1

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/03/opinion/sunday/why-blue-states-are-the-real-tea-party.html?&moduleDetail=section-news-0&action=click&contentCollection=Opinion&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&version=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=Blogs

Why Blue States Are the Real ‘Tea Party’

www.nytimes.com

Progressive urban areas pay more taxes and have less voting power than rural ones.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2016 10:27:23 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Stop Calling People "Low Information Voters" | Quillette

I love it. The Elites are getting hammered. Snobocracy is now so visible that it can be attacked for what it really is.

http://quillette.com/2016/11/30/stop-calling-people-low-information-voters/

This was also referred to by this:

http://quillette.com/2016/11/14/cut-out-the-literally-hitler-hysteria/

I love a good rant! Liberal Elites lost the election. Oh, wait, maybe we *are* LEs?

-- Owen

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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