Semipalatinsk and Los Alamos
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Semipalatinsk in Kazakhstan was a primary testing
area for the nuclear weapons of the Soviet Union. It is similar to the Trinity Site (now the White Sands Missile Range) near Los Alamos and Santa Fe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semipalatinsk_Test_Site Here the Americans set off their first atomic bomb, at Semipalatinsk, the Soviets set off their first nuclear bomb. They built a secret city 60 km away from the testing grounds (the former research center Semipalatinsk-21, now Kurchatov), similar to Los Alamos. Today, the people near Semipalatinsk still suffer from the effects of radiation, the incidence of cancer and cancer mortality has increased. Is this a problem in New Mexico as well? Is it a controversial topic in Santa Fe? -J. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Semipalatinsk and Los Alamos
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The principal nuclear bomb casualties in New Mexico, that I'm aware of, were Navajo Uranium miners and their families.
-- rec -- On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote: Semipalatinsk in Kazakhstan was a primary testing area for the nuclear weapons of the Soviet Union. It is similar to the Trinity Site (now the White Sands Missile Range) near Los Alamos and Santa Fe. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Semipalatinsk and Los Alamos
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Roger Critchlow wrote:
> The principal nuclear bomb casualties in New Mexico, that I'm aware of, were Navajo Uranium miners and their families. Also see _Inside_Box_1663_ by Eleanor Jette about the Manhattan Project and Los Alamos during WWII. Aside from her cat, the book suggests that there might have been other casualties of radiation-induced cancers and such. -- Ray Parks [hidden email] Consilient Heuristician Voice: 505-844-4024 ATA Department Mobile: 505-238-9359 http://www.sandia.gov/scada Fax: 505-844-9641 http://www.sandia.gov/idart Pager:505-951-6084 ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Semipalatinsk and Los Alamos
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In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2
And maybe a couple of the Manhattan Project scientists.
Jochen, only one weapon was ever detonated in New Mexico, in 1945. Many more were tested in Nevada in the 1950s and the fallout from those tests did cause cancers, notably leukemia, most visibly in Utah.
If you're interested in controversy, the website of the Los Alamos Study Group affords plenty of one-sided controversy - http://www.lasg.org/
This is a video compilation of all known nuclear weapon detonations from 1945 to 1998 - Mit freundlichem Gruß Scott Powell
On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote: The principal nuclear bomb casualties in New Mexico, that I'm aware of, were Navajo Uranium miners and their families. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Semipalatinsk and Los Alamos
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In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-4
At least by state, combined all cancer types, New Mexico has the lowest cancer incidence in US (2002-2006) . US cancer rate was 556,3/100000 and New Mexico rate was 480.5/100000 (2002-2006). Highest for the same period is Maine with 620.9 Naturally, rates change year after year, but if you see data, it seems to be a reduction in the incidence. Maybe there is no difference handling data statistically but talking about life and health one person of difference is important.
Alfredo
(... using the white hat)
2010/10/12 Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> Semipalatinsk in Kazakhstan was a primary testing area for the nuclear weapons of the Soviet Union. It is similar to the Trinity Site (now the White Sands Missile Range) near Los Alamos and Santa Fe. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Semipalatinsk and Los Alamos
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In reply to this post by Scott R. Powell
I was approximately
60 miles from Trinity Site in NM on that day in August 1945. So far, so good. Frank From:
[hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Scott
R. Powell And maybe a couple of the Manhattan Project scientists. Jochen, only one weapon was ever detonated in New Mexico, in
1945. Many more were tested in Nevada in the 1950s and the fallout from those
tests did cause cancers, notably leukemia, most visibly in Utah. If you're interested in controversy, the website of the Los
Alamos Study Group affords plenty of one-sided controversy - http://www.lasg.org/ This is a video compilation of all known nuclear weapon
detonations from 1945 to 1998 - Mit freundlichem Gruß Scott Powell On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote: The principal nuclear bomb casualties in New
Mexico, that I'm aware of, were Navajo Uranium miners and their families. -- rec -- On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:14 PM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote: Semipalatinsk in Kazakhstan was a primary testing area for
the nuclear weapons of the Soviet Union. It is similar to the Trinity Site (now
the White Sands Missile Range) near Los Alamos and Santa Fe.
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-4
Jochen -
Thanks for a very interesting (and I am sure, controversial) topic other than "what should I read over the winter?" or "why do I need a bleeping PhD?" (being one of the bigger contributors to both). > Today, the people near Semipalatinsk still suffer > from the effects of radiation, the incidence of cancer and cancer > mortality has increased. > Is this a problem in New Mexico as well? There is epidemiological evidence that would support the argument that higher incidents of cancer have occurred in the state, and localized around Los Alamos and it's watershed (not the Trinity test so much as 60 years of R&D with highly toxic stuff including U and Pu and Be and ...) Anecdotal evidence also supports it (who living or working in Los Alamos doesn't know several people who came up with one type of cancer or another, often a rare form and often earlier than seems reasonable?). The big fire of 2000 didn't help all this either, opening up issues of increased erosion/runoff, etc. How this compares to Rocky Flats, Hanford, Oak Ridge, etc. is a totally different question. And how it compares to Love Canal, etc. is also a totally different question. How it compares to living in any major metropolitan area in the US (or world) is another matter. How it compares to eating a typical modern diet (including hormone/pesticide/herbicide)-laden food, living in a home built without an understanding of Radon or Asbestos or ..., or how it compares to just the modern stress of a blameful, hateful, isolating, competitive society is another question. I presume that Semipalatinsk (and the myriad test sites throughout the former soviet Union, like our own Nevada Test site and dozens more, especially from the Plowshare era) suffers from many of the same things I suggest above, though differently, not discovering runaway consumerism until much more recently... For a "real good time" open http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/tests/WRJ_nuclear_tests.kml in Google Earth and take a virtual tour of *thousands* of tests around the world, mostly in the 50's and 60's. I'm far from being an apologist for nuclear waste generation or irresponsible high-tech activities, but I'm also prone to want it *all* out on the table. Homo Sapiens, despite our incredible range of creativity (because of it?) seems to be a very self-destructive creature who not only shits (toxic/radiologically) where it eats but does it gleefuly with big fat stories about how good one behaviour or another is for the planet/humanity/economy/etc. If anthropogenic global climate change is as bad as it looks like it might be, the effects of nuclear tests are a blip. Our agribusinessed global food supply, past, present and future may be many times worse for us than the all too well known (but not?) nuclear waste/test threats. > Is it a controversial topic in Santa Fe? < ;^) > No, nobody seems to discuss it at all. It is generally a non-issue </ ;^) > Actually it got kind of tired and I think Bush II, the Iraq War, Global Climate Change, GMO, etc. eclipsed it as a topic. - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Semipalatinsk and Los Alamos
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In reply to this post by Alfredo Covaleda Vélez
For Santa Fe/LANL local concerns and issues, see Concerned Citizens for Nuclear Safety (CCNS), http://www.nuclearactive.org/ , a good NGO that has been around for some time.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: Alfredo Covaleda Vélez <[hidden email]> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> Sent: Tue, Oct 12, 2010 3:47 pm Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Semipalatinsk and Los Alamos At least by state, combined all cancer types, New Mexico has the lowest cancer incidence in US (2002-2006) . US cancer rate was 556,3/100000 and New Mexico rate was 480.5/100000 (2002-2006). Highest for the same period is Maine with 620.9 Naturally, rates change year after year, but if you see data, it seems to be a reduction in the incidence. Maybe there is no difference handling data statistically but talking about life and health one person of difference is important.
Alfredo
(... using the white hat)
2010/10/12 Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]>
Semipalatinsk in Kazakhstan was a primary testing area for the nuclear weapons of the Soviet Union. It is similar to the Trinity Site (now the White Sands Missile Range) near Los Alamos and Santa Fe. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Semipalatinsk and Los Alamos
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In reply to this post by Scott R. Powell
I didn't know that. It looks like the
inhabitants of Las Vegas and Nevada should be much more affected by radiation than those of Los Alamos and New Mexico. Probably the drug wars in Juarez are a more severe threat today. Nevada, this is where the famous Area 51 is located, right? I guess the secret bomb and flight testings in Nevada were partly responsible for the myth of Area 51? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51 I wonder why no secret city in the Sovjetunion became a myth, although they are named similarily: Semipalatinsk-21, Krasnoyarsk-26, or Sverdlovsk-44 http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/secret-cities.htm -J. ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott R. Powell To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Semipalatinsk and Los Alamos [..] only one weapon was ever detonated in New Mexico, in 1945. Many more were tested in Nevada in the 1950s and the fallout from those tests did cause cancers, notably leukemia, most visibly in Utah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Test_Site ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Semipalatinsk and Los Alamos
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The flight tests were mainly at Edwards Air Force Base in California's Mojave Desert, home of Chuck Yeager and "The Right Stuff." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwards_Air_Force_Base
I imagine Soviet authorities frowned on any decadent capitalist attempts at portraying their secret cities and dealings with alien invaders cinematically. Scott Sent from my iPad On Oct 12, 2010, at 11:11 PM, "Jochen Fromm" <[hidden email]> wrote: > I didn't know that. It looks like the inhabitants of Las Vegas and Nevada should be much more affected by radiation than those of Los Alamos and New Mexico. Probably > the drug wars in Juarez are a more severe > threat today. > > Nevada, this is where the famous Area 51 > is located, right? I guess the secret bomb and flight testings in Nevada were partly responsible for the myth of Area 51? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51 > > I wonder why no secret city in the > Sovjetunion became a myth, although > they are named similarily: Semipalatinsk-21, Krasnoyarsk-26, or Sverdlovsk-44 > http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/secret-cities.htm > > -J. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott R. Powell To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 11:41 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Semipalatinsk and Los Alamos > > [..] only one weapon was ever detonated in New Mexico, > in 1945. Many more were tested in Nevada in the 1950s and the fallout from those tests did cause cancers, notably leukemia, most visibly in Utah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Test_Site > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Semipalatinsk and Los Alamos
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In reply to this post by Scott R. Powell
We should also take into account the many Sandia scientists and technicians that were part of the Pacific tests. I don't know what has been documented about them but when I first moved to NM in the late 70's. I met a number of them. They all seemed to believe that many of their coworkers had died from cancer or had cancer but were reluctant to seek any publicity as they saw their activities as a patriotic act that was important and did not fault the government for not giving them adequate protection from the blasts.
Ed On Oct 12, 2010, at 3:41 PM, Scott R. Powell wrote: And maybe a couple of the Manhattan Project scientists. __________ Ed Angel Chair, Board of Directors, Santa Fe Complex Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico 1017 Sierra Pinon ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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