SFI to Trump: The dangers of simplicity in a complex world

[Gillian Densmore]

this is all a really long way of saying Volte Morte is a giant ass.

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:23 PM, Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

When I received an unexpected and overly-generous research grant to see how Complex Adaptive Systems science might have something to contribute to the search for coexistence in a world of endless war, I felt like Goldilocks and the Three Bears as a I searched for a home for this windfall.  I am not a "scientist" (I'm a social scientist), and I don't write code, so SFI rapidly scooted me out the door;  the Advanced Concepts Group at Sandia invited me in, but after attending a few sessions with them I decided they were just blah, blah, and I wanted the REAL complexity science!  So I took my grant to CNLS at Los Alamos, where I was greeted with open arms (I was deemed a "domain expert" in terrorism because I had mediated in N. Ireland and the Middle East) and given an office, a computer, post-docs from all over the world, and a title as Guest Scientist and Affiliate--enabling me to present my team's research at conferences in the credential-crazed world of academia.  

After four years, I left to reinvigorate our small social-profit organization (we don't like the term "non-profit") and find new partners with whom we could apply the principles and concepts of CAS to peacebuilding. It's been an amazing journey ever since, and FRIAM has been an important part of that journey.  Count me among the grateful--even though I leave for awhile when Complexity science is put on the back burner, supplanted by esoteric dialogue that I'm too unschooled to understand.

I just finished teaching a graduate course in Complexity Thinking for Integrative Peacebuilding, and my students were adult learners who work for Trudeau in the Canadian government--many deployed around the world in conflict zones.  I've never looked back after getting the boot from SFI.  Fuck 'em!  And thank you, FRIAM.

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:39 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

 

Steve Smith wrote:

 

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like,

 

I will talk about tornado formation, a n y   t I m e, Steve. 

 

Seriously, I wonder if the fact that we have stopped talking about complexity might have something to do with the state of play of that field.  I reached a point where I began to feel that complexity-talk went on in some alternative universe that, without the initiation and the golden key, I was never going to enter. You will remember, Steve, that  I worked for a couple of years, trying to make a translation between that universe and mine, and was never able to manage it.  When the working vocabulary of a science is inaccessible to a diligent, moderately intelligent, practitioner of neighboring sciences, does that not limit the development of that science?

 

By the way, when I first came out here I tried to make contact with SFI.  At the time, I wrote up the result in a satirical account, which, to be honest, reeks of sour grapes.  Still, in the present context you might find it funny.  See attached.

 

Omitted from this account was one life-changing exchange with Dr. X.  At some point, during Phase II of The Ritual Reception and Rejection, I asked him, “Given that The Institute is such a charismatic place, and given that you have no room, where do all the people go when you reject them?  There must be a lot of them around Santa Fe.” 

 

I am everlastingly grateful for his response.  He thought a very long minute and then scribbled on a Posty and handed it to me.  It said, “Call Steve Guerin.  FRIAM.” 

 

The rest is history. 

 

Nick

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 12:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] SFI to Trump: The dangers of simplicity in a complex world

 

I appreciate FriAM, even though I don't attend Friday Congregation very often, or even WedTech Congregation either!   The *active* voices here are familiar and even though I may have a lot of different perspectives and opinions, I truly value what I hear here, and more than anything I look forward to one of our *many* lurkers chiming in.  

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like, but I like knowing that there are many with strong Complexity backgrounds engaged in the more sociopolitical discussions that seem to dominate.

Since I feel a bit like Glen in his statement "Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there"...  I'm enough used to being an outsider or an interloper that I generally can slip into alien situations and keep a low enough profile to not raise alarm or cause disruption.

This forum, being asynchronous and as Gary points out, "easy to delete" feels like a safe place FOR me to speak up above a hushed whisper... so I value it as well.  

SFx was intended to be a more open and welcoming environment to share the wealth from... I think we did a moderately good job much of the time, but still missed the mark in at least developing a sustainable funding model.

- Steve

 

On 2/6/17 11:49 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway - FRIAM, both the list and the actual gathering at the "mothership" of Santa Fe - has always felt welcoming. It's the only list I've stayed with since its inception. I don't know if there are any SFI lurkers here, but there do seem to be a lot of people who "used to" have some association with it rather than those who are actively involved with it. I've no idea how much is due to a bit of snobbery vs. just simply the fact that the list is open to such a wide range of stuff that isn't interesting to folks interested purely in complexity. I find it easy enough just to delete messages when I get too overwhelmed, confident that they are archived so I can eventually look them over.

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:34 PM, glen ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

FWIW, I felt fairly unwelcome soon after I left to work in our Agua Fria office (1997 maybe), perhaps since I was merely a research technician rather than any sort of academic.  Then it got even worse when they expanded down the hill by staffing a receptionist.  I always managed to sneak past without being grilled to badly ... but the concept was clear: do you belong here?  Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there. 8^)


On 02/05/2017 03:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> That makes sense but I just sat there quietly and listened.  No
> self-aggrandizing questions. And then I left.

--
☣ glen

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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--

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Steve Smith]

Nick -

I DO remember he tornado/vortex/swirlie discussions of yore, and in fact, those were characteristic of the discussions I appreciated there being here, just as I appreciated the "book club" you spearheaded on a Complexity topic even earlier (what book was that?).  I also appreciated your "noodling" concept back in the day (not complexity as such, excepting for the idea of emergent knowledge).   I think your contribution to this list, with your own specific background and as an unabashed "innocent' on many topics is very valuable.  I realize my encouraging Doug in his juvenile responses (e.g. Swirlies) did undermine your attempt to be serious about tornadoes, but it DID lead you to meeting his Parrots I think?   I have a fresh batch of Ravens at my place who  you are welcome to come engage with their vocalizations (no wife now to limit my open invitations, just a vicious dog who I can sequester with minor warning).

I agree that the deeper methods of Complexity Science ARE difficult and subtle, but in many ways more intuitive and accessible (IMO) than those of Relativistic and Quantum Physics.   The *ideas* (as I think Glen suggests) *are* pretty available...  I would suggest that your own field might be harder for educated laypersons from "adjacent fields" to grasp, with even more reserved terminology?  The fact that Complexity Science spans (virtually?) all sciences ( and engineering and technology ) means it *must* be accessible laterally.  There is little to no value to stovepiping it.   I know some folks have made quite a living off of making Complexity Science arcane... but far from all.  I think SFI does a very good job in general.

I don't know what it can be done in this forum, but perhaps.  I think that what complexityexplorer.org (thanks to SFI) is trying to do is exactly what you are seeking?   I sat in on the first round (online ) but it was "remedial" enough for me to not hold my interest, though I *do* much need the thoroughness involved.   I had hoped there would form a "study group" here to follow the classes and have lots of peer support.  I don't remember their being much engagement in this forum?

I will agree with Glen's observation that a "complexity perspective" is ever-present here, which is part of what makes it all worthwhile.   I withdraw any implication that we need more use of arcane complexity science terminology, or that what we *do* have here isn't appreciated.

- Steve

On 2/6/17 1:39 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Dear all,

 

Steve Smith wrote:

 

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like,

 

I will talk about tornado formation, a n y   t I m e, Steve. 

 

Seriously, I wonder if the fact that we have stopped talking about complexity might have something to do with the state of play of that field.  I reached a point where I began to feel that complexity-talk went on in some alternative universe that, without the initiation and the golden key, I was never going to enter. You will remember, Steve, that  I worked for a couple of years, trying to make a translation between that universe and mine, and was never able to manage it.  When the working vocabulary of a science is inaccessible to a diligent, moderately intelligent, practitioner of neighboring sciences, does that not limit the development of that science?

 

By the way, when I first came out here I tried to make contact with SFI.  At the time, I wrote up the result in a satirical account, which, to be honest, reeks of sour grapes.  Still, in the present context you might find it funny.  See attached.

 

Omitted from this account was one life-changing exchange with Dr. X.  At some point, during Phase II of The Ritual Reception and Rejection, I asked him, “Given that The Institute is such a charismatic place, and given that you have no room, where do all the people go when you reject them?  There must be a lot of them around Santa Fe.” 

 

I am everlastingly grateful for his response.  He thought a very long minute and then scribbled on a Posty and handed it to me.  It said, “Call Steve Guerin.  FRIAM.” 

 

The rest is history. 

 

Nick

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 12:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] SFI to Trump: The dangers of simplicity in a complex world

 

I appreciate FriAM, even though I don't attend Friday Congregation very often, or even WedTech Congregation either!   The *active* voices here are familiar and even though I may have a lot of different perspectives and opinions, I truly value what I hear here, and more than anything I look forward to one of our *many* lurkers chiming in.  

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like, but I like knowing that there are many with strong Complexity backgrounds engaged in the more sociopolitical discussions that seem to dominate.

Since I feel a bit like Glen in his statement "Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there"...  I'm enough used to being an outsider or an interloper that I generally can slip into alien situations and keep a low enough profile to not raise alarm or cause disruption.

This forum, being asynchronous and as Gary points out, "easy to delete" feels like a safe place FOR me to speak up above a hushed whisper... so I value it as well.  

SFx was intended to be a more open and welcoming environment to share the wealth from... I think we did a moderately good job much of the time, but still missed the mark in at least developing a sustainable funding model.

- Steve

 

On 2/6/17 11:49 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway - FRIAM, both the list and the actual gathering at the "mothership" of Santa Fe - has always felt welcoming. It's the only list I've stayed with since its inception. I don't know if there are any SFI lurkers here, but there do seem to be a lot of people who "used to" have some association with it rather than those who are actively involved with it. I've no idea how much is due to a bit of snobbery vs. just simply the fact that the list is open to such a wide range of stuff that isn't interesting to folks interested purely in complexity. I find it easy enough just to delete messages when I get too overwhelmed, confident that they are archived so I can eventually look them over.

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:34 PM, glen ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

FWIW, I felt fairly unwelcome soon after I left to work in our Agua Fria office (1997 maybe), perhaps since I was merely a research technician rather than any sort of academic.  Then it got even worse when they expanded down the hill by staffing a receptionist.  I always managed to sneak past without being grilled to badly ... but the concept was clear: do you belong here?  Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there. 8^)


On 02/05/2017 03:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> That makes sense but I just sat there quietly and listened.  No
> self-aggrandizing questions. And then I left.

--
☣ glen

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

 

============================================================

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Steve Smith]

Nick -

Vortices aside, I just checked the Syllabi of the Complexity Explorer and find that there are MANY courses that might be of interest to you.  Do you find the language in them out of reach?  Would having a small study group online help with that?    Are there any particular topics there ( https://www.complexityexplorer.org/explore/syllabi) of interest?

- Steve

On 2/6/17 3:51 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:

Nick -

I DO remember he tornado/vortex/swirlie discussions of yore, and in fact, those were characteristic of the discussions I appreciated there being here, just as I appreciated the "book club" you spearheaded on a Complexity topic even earlier (what book was that?).  I also appreciated your "noodling" concept back in the day (not complexity as such, excepting for the idea of emergent knowledge).   I think your contribution to this list, with your own specific background and as an unabashed "innocent' on many topics is very valuable.  I realize my encouraging Doug in his juvenile responses (e.g. Swirlies) did undermine your attempt to be serious about tornadoes, but it DID lead you to meeting his Parrots I think?   I have a fresh batch of Ravens at my place who  you are welcome to come engage with their vocalizations (no wife now to limit my open invitations, just a vicious dog who I can sequester with minor warning).

I agree that the deeper methods of Complexity Science ARE difficult and subtle, but in many ways more intuitive and accessible (IMO) than those of Relativistic and Quantum Physics.   The *ideas* (as I think Glen suggests) *are* pretty available...  I would suggest that your own field might be harder for educated laypersons from "adjacent fields" to grasp, with even more reserved terminology?  The fact that Complexity Science spans (virtually?) all sciences ( and engineering and technology ) means it *must* be accessible laterally.  There is little to no value to stovepiping it.   I know some folks have made quite a living off of making Complexity Science arcane... but far from all.  I think SFI does a very good job in general.

I don't know what it can be done in this forum, but perhaps.  I think that what complexityexplorer.org (thanks to SFI) is trying to do is exactly what you are seeking?   I sat in on the first round (online ) but it was "remedial" enough for me to not hold my interest, though I *do* much need the thoroughness involved.   I had hoped there would form a "study group" here to follow the classes and have lots of peer support.  I don't remember their being much engagement in this forum?

I will agree with Glen's observation that a "complexity perspective" is ever-present here, which is part of what makes it all worthwhile.   I withdraw any implication that we need more use of arcane complexity science terminology, or that what we *do* have here isn't appreciated.

- Steve

On 2/6/17 1:39 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Dear all,

 

Steve Smith wrote:

 

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like,

 

I will talk about tornado formation, a n y   t I m e, Steve. 

 

Seriously, I wonder if the fact that we have stopped talking about complexity might have something to do with the state of play of that field.  I reached a point where I began to feel that complexity-talk went on in some alternative universe that, without the initiation and the golden key, I was never going to enter. You will remember, Steve, that  I worked for a couple of years, trying to make a translation between that universe and mine, and was never able to manage it.  When the working vocabulary of a science is inaccessible to a diligent, moderately intelligent, practitioner of neighboring sciences, does that not limit the development of that science?

 

By the way, when I first came out here I tried to make contact with SFI.  At the time, I wrote up the result in a satirical account, which, to be honest, reeks of sour grapes.  Still, in the present context you might find it funny.  See attached.

 

Omitted from this account was one life-changing exchange with Dr. X.  At some point, during Phase II of The Ritual Reception and Rejection, I asked him, “Given that The Institute is such a charismatic place, and given that you have no room, where do all the people go when you reject them?  There must be a lot of them around Santa Fe.” 

 

I am everlastingly grateful for his response.  He thought a very long minute and then scribbled on a Posty and handed it to me.  It said, “Call Steve Guerin.  FRIAM.” 

 

The rest is history. 

 

Nick

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 12:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] SFI to Trump: The dangers of simplicity in a complex world

 

I appreciate FriAM, even though I don't attend Friday Congregation very often, or even WedTech Congregation either!   The *active* voices here are familiar and even though I may have a lot of different perspectives and opinions, I truly value what I hear here, and more than anything I look forward to one of our *many* lurkers chiming in.  

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like, but I like knowing that there are many with strong Complexity backgrounds engaged in the more sociopolitical discussions that seem to dominate.

Since I feel a bit like Glen in his statement "Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there"...  I'm enough used to being an outsider or an interloper that I generally can slip into alien situations and keep a low enough profile to not raise alarm or cause disruption.

This forum, being asynchronous and as Gary points out, "easy to delete" feels like a safe place FOR me to speak up above a hushed whisper... so I value it as well.  

SFx was intended to be a more open and welcoming environment to share the wealth from... I think we did a moderately good job much of the time, but still missed the mark in at least developing a sustainable funding model.

- Steve

 

On 2/6/17 11:49 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway - FRIAM, both the list and the actual gathering at the "mothership" of Santa Fe - has always felt welcoming. It's the only list I've stayed with since its inception. I don't know if there are any SFI lurkers here, but there do seem to be a lot of people who "used to" have some association with it rather than those who are actively involved with it. I've no idea how much is due to a bit of snobbery vs. just simply the fact that the list is open to such a wide range of stuff that isn't interesting to folks interested purely in complexity. I find it easy enough just to delete messages when I get too overwhelmed, confident that they are archived so I can eventually look them over.

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:34 PM, glen ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

FWIW, I felt fairly unwelcome soon after I left to work in our Agua Fria office (1997 maybe), perhaps since I was merely a research technician rather than any sort of academic.  Then it got even worse when they expanded down the hill by staffing a receptionist.  I always managed to sneak past without being grilled to badly ... but the concept was clear: do you belong here?  Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there. 8^)


On 02/05/2017 03:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> That makes sense but I just sat there quietly and listened.  No
> self-aggrandizing questions. And then I left.

--
☣ glen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

 

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Steve Smith]

Merle -

I seem to remember that Norm Johnson was one of your collaborators at CNLS?

Do you have some specific publications that might "summarize" your work/thinking in the application of CAS to social science and the peace-building process in particular? 

I think this is the area I am most interested in the application of CAS...  there is plenty of work in the harder sciences and economics I think, but it feels as if the biggest leverage or payoff might be in the understanding of sociopolitical systems.

- Steve

On 2/6/17 2:23 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:

When I received an unexpected and overly-generous research grant to see how Complex Adaptive Systems science might have something to contribute to the search for coexistence in a world of endless war, I felt like Goldilocks and the Three Bears as a I searched for a home for this windfall.  I am not a "scientist" (I'm a social scientist), and I don't write code, so SFI rapidly scooted me out the door;  the Advanced Concepts Group at Sandia invited me in, but after attending a few sessions with them I decided they were just blah, blah, and I wanted the REAL complexity science!  So I took my grant to CNLS at Los Alamos, where I was greeted with open arms (I was deemed a "domain expert" in terrorism because I had mediated in N. Ireland and the Middle East) and given an office, a computer, post-docs from all over the world, and a title as Guest Scientist and Affiliate--enabling me to present my team's research at conferences in the credential-crazed world of academia.  

After four years, I left to reinvigorate our small social-profit organization (we don't like the term "non-profit") and find new partners with whom we could apply the principles and concepts of CAS to peacebuilding. It's been an amazing journey ever since, and FRIAM has been an important part of that journey.  Count me among the grateful--even though I leave for awhile when Complexity science is put on the back burner, supplanted by esoteric dialogue that I'm too unschooled to understand.

I just finished teaching a graduate course in Complexity Thinking for Integrative Peacebuilding, and my students were adult learners who work for Trudeau in the Canadian government--many deployed around the world in conflict zones.  I've never looked back after getting the boot from SFI.  Fuck 'em!  And thank you, FRIAM.

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:39 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear all,

 

Steve Smith wrote:

 

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like,

 

I will talk about tornado formation, a n y   t I m e, Steve. 

 

Seriously, I wonder if the fact that we have stopped talking about complexity might have something to do with the state of play of that field.  I reached a point where I began to feel that complexity-talk went on in some alternative universe that, without the initiation and the golden key, I was never going to enter. You will remember, Steve, that  I worked for a couple of years, trying to make a translation between that universe and mine, and was never able to manage it.  When the working vocabulary of a science is inaccessible to a diligent, moderately intelligent, practitioner of neighboring sciences, does that not limit the development of that science?

 

By the way, when I first came out here I tried to make contact with SFI.  At the time, I wrote up the result in a satirical account, which, to be honest, reeks of sour grapes.  Still, in the present context you might find it funny.  See attached.

 

Omitted from this account was one life-changing exchange with Dr. X.  At some point, during Phase II of The Ritual Reception and Rejection, I asked him, “Given that The Institute is such a charismatic place, and given that you have no room, where do all the people go when you reject them?  There must be a lot of them around Santa Fe.” 

 

I am everlastingly grateful for his response.  He thought a very long minute and then scribbled on a Posty and handed it to me.  It said, “Call Steve Guerin.  FRIAM.” 

 

The rest is history. 

 

Nick

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 12:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] SFI to Trump: The dangers of simplicity in a complex world

 

I appreciate FriAM, even though I don't attend Friday Congregation very often, or even WedTech Congregation either!   The *active* voices here are familiar and even though I may have a lot of different perspectives and opinions, I truly value what I hear here, and more than anything I look forward to one of our *many* lurkers chiming in.  

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like, but I like knowing that there are many with strong Complexity backgrounds engaged in the more sociopolitical discussions that seem to dominate.

Since I feel a bit like Glen in his statement "Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there"...  I'm enough used to being an outsider or an interloper that I generally can slip into alien situations and keep a low enough profile to not raise alarm or cause disruption.

This forum, being asynchronous and as Gary points out, "easy to delete" feels like a safe place FOR me to speak up above a hushed whisper... so I value it as well.  

SFx was intended to be a more open and welcoming environment to share the wealth from... I think we did a moderately good job much of the time, but still missed the mark in at least developing a sustainable funding model.

- Steve

 

On 2/6/17 11:49 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway - FRIAM, both the list and the actual gathering at the "mothership" of Santa Fe - has always felt welcoming. It's the only list I've stayed with since its inception. I don't know if there are any SFI lurkers here, but there do seem to be a lot of people who "used to" have some association with it rather than those who are actively involved with it. I've no idea how much is due to a bit of snobbery vs. just simply the fact that the list is open to such a wide range of stuff that isn't interesting to folks interested purely in complexity. I find it easy enough just to delete messages when I get too overwhelmed, confident that they are archived so I can eventually look them over.

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:34 PM, glen ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

FWIW, I felt fairly unwelcome soon after I left to work in our Agua Fria office (1997 maybe), perhaps since I was merely a research technician rather than any sort of academic.  Then it got even worse when they expanded down the hill by staffing a receptionist.  I always managed to sneak past without being grilled to badly ... but the concept was clear: do you belong here?  Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there. 8^)


On 02/05/2017 03:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> That makes sense but I just sat there quietly and listened.  No
> self-aggrandizing questions. And then I left.

--
☣ glen

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--

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Merle writes:

 

< So I took my grant to CNLS at Los Alamos, where I was greeted with open arms (I was deemed a "domain expert" in terrorism because I had mediated in N. Ireland and the Middle East) and given an office, a computer, post-docs from all over the world, and a title as Guest Scientist and Affiliate--enabling me to present my team's research at conferences in the credential-crazed world of academia.  >

 

Perhaps it is not widely known, but there is also an organization in Los Alamos called the New Mexico Consortium.   This is a lower overhead non-profit that has negotiated a degree of peace with the lab and it is common for LANL scientists to direct staff at the NMC, or for LANL scientists to spend some of their time at the NMC.   Many NMC folks get limited badging for the lab and can attend relevant events.  However, to do that kind of work in an applied sense would surely involve security clearances, so NMC might not be right anyway in that case.  The NMC isn’t that big, but probably a similar staff size to SFI. 

 

Marcus

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[Owen Densmore]

Complexity Explorer is the best thing SFI has produced, other than perhaps there video library of talks. For me, anyway.

   -- Owen

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick -

Vortices aside, I just checked the Syllabi of the Complexity Explorer and find that there are MANY courses that might be of interest to you.  Do you find the language in them out of reach?  Would having a small study group online help with that?    Are there any particular topics there ( https://www.complexityexplorer.org/explore/syllabi) of interest?

- Steve

On 2/6/17 3:51 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:

Nick -

I DO remember he tornado/vortex/swirlie discussions of yore, and in fact, those were characteristic of the discussions I appreciated there being here, just as I appreciated the "book club" you spearheaded on a Complexity topic even earlier (what book was that?).  I also appreciated your "noodling" concept back in the day (not complexity as such, excepting for the idea of emergent knowledge).   I think your contribution to this list, with your own specific background and as an unabashed "innocent' on many topics is very valuable.  I realize my encouraging Doug in his juvenile responses (e.g. Swirlies) did undermine your attempt to be serious about tornadoes, but it DID lead you to meeting his Parrots I think?   I have a fresh batch of Ravens at my place who  you are welcome to come engage with their vocalizations (no wife now to limit my open invitations, just a vicious dog who I can sequester with minor warning).

I agree that the deeper methods of Complexity Science ARE difficult and subtle, but in many ways more intuitive and accessible (IMO) than those of Relativistic and Quantum Physics.   The *ideas* (as I think Glen suggests) *are* pretty available...  I would suggest that your own field might be harder for educated laypersons from "adjacent fields" to grasp, with even more reserved terminology?  The fact that Complexity Science spans (virtually?) all sciences ( and engineering and technology ) means it *must* be accessible laterally.  There is little to no value to stovepiping it.   I know some folks have made quite a living off of making Complexity Science arcane... but far from all.  I think SFI does a very good job in general.

I don't know what it can be done in this forum, but perhaps.  I think that what complexityexplorer.org (thanks to SFI) is trying to do is exactly what you are seeking?   I sat in on the first round (online ) but it was "remedial" enough for me to not hold my interest, though I *do* much need the thoroughness involved.   I had hoped there would form a "study group" here to follow the classes and have lots of peer support.  I don't remember their being much engagement in this forum?

I will agree with Glen's observation that a "complexity perspective" is ever-present here, which is part of what makes it all worthwhile.   I withdraw any implication that we need more use of arcane complexity science terminology, or that what we *do* have here isn't appreciated.

- Steve

On 2/6/17 1:39 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Dear all,

 

Steve Smith wrote:

 

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like,

 

I will talk about tornado formation, a n y   t I m e, Steve. 

 

Seriously, I wonder if the fact that we have stopped talking about complexity might have something to do with the state of play of that field.  I reached a point where I began to feel that complexity-talk went on in some alternative universe that, without the initiation and the golden key, I was never going to enter. You will remember, Steve, that  I worked for a couple of years, trying to make a translation between that universe and mine, and was never able to manage it.  When the working vocabulary of a science is inaccessible to a diligent, moderately intelligent, practitioner of neighboring sciences, does that not limit the development of that science?

 

By the way, when I first came out here I tried to make contact with SFI.  At the time, I wrote up the result in a satirical account, which, to be honest, reeks of sour grapes.  Still, in the present context you might find it funny.  See attached.

 

Omitted from this account was one life-changing exchange with Dr. X.  At some point, during Phase II of The Ritual Reception and Rejection, I asked him, “Given that The Institute is such a charismatic place, and given that you have no room, where do all the people go when you reject them?  There must be a lot of them around Santa Fe.” 

 

I am everlastingly grateful for his response.  He thought a very long minute and then scribbled on a Posty and handed it to me.  It said, “Call Steve Guerin.  FRIAM.” 

 

The rest is history. 

 

Nick

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 12:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] SFI to Trump: The dangers of simplicity in a complex world

 

I appreciate FriAM, even though I don't attend Friday Congregation very often, or even WedTech Congregation either!   The *active* voices here are familiar and even though I may have a lot of different perspectives and opinions, I truly value what I hear here, and more than anything I look forward to one of our *many* lurkers chiming in.  

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like, but I like knowing that there are many with strong Complexity backgrounds engaged in the more sociopolitical discussions that seem to dominate.

Since I feel a bit like Glen in his statement "Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there"...  I'm enough used to being an outsider or an interloper that I generally can slip into alien situations and keep a low enough profile to not raise alarm or cause disruption.

This forum, being asynchronous and as Gary points out, "easy to delete" feels like a safe place FOR me to speak up above a hushed whisper... so I value it as well.  

SFx was intended to be a more open and welcoming environment to share the wealth from... I think we did a moderately good job much of the time, but still missed the mark in at least developing a sustainable funding model.

- Steve

 

On 2/6/17 11:49 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway - FRIAM, both the list and the actual gathering at the "mothership" of Santa Fe - has always felt welcoming. It's the only list I've stayed with since its inception. I don't know if there are any SFI lurkers here, but there do seem to be a lot of people who "used to" have some association with it rather than those who are actively involved with it. I've no idea how much is due to a bit of snobbery vs. just simply the fact that the list is open to such a wide range of stuff that isn't interesting to folks interested purely in complexity. I find it easy enough just to delete messages when I get too overwhelmed, confident that they are archived so I can eventually look them over.

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:34 PM, glen ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

FWIW, I felt fairly unwelcome soon after I left to work in our Agua Fria office (1997 maybe), perhaps since I was merely a research technician rather than any sort of academic.  Then it got even worse when they expanded down the hill by staffing a receptionist.  I always managed to sneak past without being grilled to badly ... but the concept was clear: do you belong here?  Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there. 8^)


On 02/05/2017 03:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> That makes sense but I just sat there quietly and listened.  No
> self-aggrandizing questions. And then I left.

--
☣ glen

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[Nick Thompson]

Owen, Steve,

 

I am embarrassed to say, this is the first I have heard of it.

 

It may be too late for this old bird.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 8:25 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Complexity Science for (us) Dummies

 

Complexity Explorer is the best thing SFI has produced, other than perhaps there video library of talks. For me, anyway.

 

   -- Owen

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick -

Vortices aside, I just checked the Syllabi of the Complexity Explorer and find that there are MANY courses that might be of interest to you.  Do you find the language in them out of reach?  Would having a small study group online help with that?    Are there any particular topics there ( https://www.complexityexplorer.org/explore/syllabi) of interest?

- Steve

On 2/6/17 3:51 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:

Nick -

I DO remember he tornado/vortex/swirlie discussions of yore, and in fact, those were characteristic of the discussions I appreciated there being here, just as I appreciated the "book club" you spearheaded on a Complexity topic even earlier (what book was that?).  I also appreciated your "noodling" concept back in the day (not complexity as such, excepting for the idea of emergent knowledge).   I think your contribution to this list, with your own specific background and as an unabashed "innocent' on many topics is very valuable.  I realize my encouraging Doug in his juvenile responses (e.g. Swirlies) did undermine your attempt to be serious about tornadoes, but it DID lead you to meeting his Parrots I think?   I have a fresh batch of Ravens at my place who  you are welcome to come engage with their vocalizations (no wife now to limit my open invitations, just a vicious dog who I can sequester with minor warning).

I agree that the deeper methods of Complexity Science ARE difficult and subtle, but in many ways more intuitive and accessible (IMO) than those of Relativistic and Quantum Physics.   The *ideas* (as I think Glen suggests) *are* pretty available...  I would suggest that your own field might be harder for educated laypersons from "adjacent fields" to grasp, with even more reserved terminology?  The fact that Complexity Science spans (virtually?) all sciences ( and engineering and technology ) means it *must* be accessible laterally.  There is little to no value to stovepiping it.   I know some folks have made quite a living off of making Complexity Science arcane... but far from all.  I think SFI does a very good job in general.

I don't know what it can be done in this forum, but perhaps.  I think that what complexityexplorer.org (thanks to SFI) is trying to do is exactly what you are seeking?   I sat in on the first round (online ) but it was "remedial" enough for me to not hold my interest, though I *do* much need the thoroughness involved.   I had hoped there would form a "study group" here to follow the classes and have lots of peer support.  I don't remember their being much engagement in this forum?

I will agree with Glen's observation that a "complexity perspective" is ever-present here, which is part of what makes it all worthwhile.   I withdraw any implication that we need more use of arcane complexity science terminology, or that what we *do* have here isn't appreciated.

- Steve

 

 

 

 

 

On 2/6/17 1:39 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Dear all,

 

Steve Smith wrote:

 

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like,

 

I will talk about tornado formation, a n y   t I m e, Steve. 

 

Seriously, I wonder if the fact that we have stopped talking about complexity might have something to do with the state of play of that field.  I reached a point where I began to feel that complexity-talk went on in some alternative universe that, without the initiation and the golden key, I was never going to enter. You will remember, Steve, that  I worked for a couple of years, trying to make a translation between that universe and mine, and was never able to manage it.  When the working vocabulary of a science is inaccessible to a diligent, moderately intelligent, practitioner of neighboring sciences, does that not limit the development of that science?

 

By the way, when I first came out here I tried to make contact with SFI.  At the time, I wrote up the result in a satirical account, which, to be honest, reeks of sour grapes.  Still, in the present context you might find it funny.  See attached.

 

Omitted from this account was one life-changing exchange with Dr. X.  At some point, during Phase II of The Ritual Reception and Rejection, I asked him, “Given that The Institute is such a charismatic place, and given that you have no room, where do all the people go when you reject them?  There must be a lot of them around Santa Fe.” 

 

I am everlastingly grateful for his response.  He thought a very long minute and then scribbled on a Posty and handed it to me.  It said, “Call Steve Guerin.  FRIAM.” 

 

The rest is history. 

 

Nick

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 12:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] SFI to Trump: The dangers of simplicity in a complex world

 

I appreciate FriAM, even though I don't attend Friday Congregation very often, or even WedTech Congregation either!   The *active* voices here are familiar and even though I may have a lot of different perspectives and opinions, I truly value what I hear here, and more than anything I look forward to one of our *many* lurkers chiming in.  

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like, but I like knowing that there are many with strong Complexity backgrounds engaged in the more sociopolitical discussions that seem to dominate.

Since I feel a bit like Glen in his statement "Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there"...  I'm enough used to being an outsider or an interloper that I generally can slip into alien situations and keep a low enough profile to not raise alarm or cause disruption.

This forum, being asynchronous and as Gary points out, "easy to delete" feels like a safe place FOR me to speak up above a hushed whisper... so I value it as well.  

SFx was intended to be a more open and welcoming environment to share the wealth from... I think we did a moderately good job much of the time, but still missed the mark in at least developing a sustainable funding model.

- Steve

 

On 2/6/17 11:49 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway - FRIAM, both the list and the actual gathering at the "mothership" of Santa Fe - has always felt welcoming. It's the only list I've stayed with since its inception. I don't know if there are any SFI lurkers here, but there do seem to be a lot of people who "used to" have some association with it rather than those who are actively involved with it. I've no idea how much is due to a bit of snobbery vs. just simply the fact that the list is open to such a wide range of stuff that isn't interesting to folks interested purely in complexity. I find it easy enough just to delete messages when I get too overwhelmed, confident that they are archived so I can eventually look them over.

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:34 PM, glen ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

FWIW, I felt fairly unwelcome soon after I left to work in our Agua Fria office (1997 maybe), perhaps since I was merely a research technician rather than any sort of academic.  Then it got even worse when they expanded down the hill by staffing a receptionist.  I always managed to sneak past without being grilled to badly ... but the concept was clear: do you belong here?  Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there. 8^)


On 02/05/2017 03:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> That makes sense but I just sat there quietly and listened.  No
> self-aggrandizing questions. And then I left.

--
☣ glen

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

 

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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[Steve Smith]

Take a gander, you old gander <grin>... there may be something in there worthy of a little study.  It is rich with material... but maybe overwhelmingly so!

On 2/6/17 8:43 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Owen, Steve,

 

I am embarrassed to say, this is the first I have heard of it.

 

It may be too late for this old bird.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 8:25 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Complexity Science for (us) Dummies

 

Complexity Explorer is the best thing SFI has produced, other than perhaps there video library of talks. For me, anyway.

 

   -- Owen

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick -

Vortices aside, I just checked the Syllabi of the Complexity Explorer and find that there are MANY courses that might be of interest to you.  Do you find the language in them out of reach?  Would having a small study group online help with that?    Are there any particular topics there ( https://www.complexityexplorer.org/explore/syllabi) of interest?

- Steve

On 2/6/17 3:51 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:

Nick -

I DO remember he tornado/vortex/swirlie discussions of yore, and in fact, those were characteristic of the discussions I appreciated there being here, just as I appreciated the "book club" you spearheaded on a Complexity topic even earlier (what book was that?).  I also appreciated your "noodling" concept back in the day (not complexity as such, excepting for the idea of emergent knowledge).   I think your contribution to this list, with your own specific background and as an unabashed "innocent' on many topics is very valuable.  I realize my encouraging Doug in his juvenile responses (e.g. Swirlies) did undermine your attempt to be serious about tornadoes, but it DID lead you to meeting his Parrots I think?   I have a fresh batch of Ravens at my place who  you are welcome to come engage with their vocalizations (no wife now to limit my open invitations, just a vicious dog who I can sequester with minor warning).

I agree that the deeper methods of Complexity Science ARE difficult and subtle, but in many ways more intuitive and accessible (IMO) than those of Relativistic and Quantum Physics.   The *ideas* (as I think Glen suggests) *are* pretty available...  I would suggest that your own field might be harder for educated laypersons from "adjacent fields" to grasp, with even more reserved terminology?  The fact that Complexity Science spans (virtually?) all sciences ( and engineering and technology ) means it *must* be accessible laterally.  There is little to no value to stovepiping it.   I know some folks have made quite a living off of making Complexity Science arcane... but far from all.  I think SFI does a very good job in general.

I don't know what it can be done in this forum, but perhaps.  I think that what complexityexplorer.org (thanks to SFI) is trying to do is exactly what you are seeking?   I sat in on the first round (online ) but it was "remedial" enough for me to not hold my interest, though I *do* much need the thoroughness involved.   I had hoped there would form a "study group" here to follow the classes and have lots of peer support.  I don't remember their being much engagement in this forum?

I will agree with Glen's observation that a "complexity perspective" is ever-present here, which is part of what makes it all worthwhile.   I withdraw any implication that we need more use of arcane complexity science terminology, or that what we *do* have here isn't appreciated.

- Steve

 

 

 

 

 

On 2/6/17 1:39 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Dear all,

 

Steve Smith wrote:

 

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like,

 

I will talk about tornado formation, a n y   t I m e, Steve. 

 

Seriously, I wonder if the fact that we have stopped talking about complexity might have something to do with the state of play of that field.  I reached a point where I began to feel that complexity-talk went on in some alternative universe that, without the initiation and the golden key, I was never going to enter. You will remember, Steve, that  I worked for a couple of years, trying to make a translation between that universe and mine, and was never able to manage it.  When the working vocabulary of a science is inaccessible to a diligent, moderately intelligent, practitioner of neighboring sciences, does that not limit the development of that science?

 

By the way, when I first came out here I tried to make contact with SFI.  At the time, I wrote up the result in a satirical account, which, to be honest, reeks of sour grapes.  Still, in the present context you might find it funny.  See attached.

 

Omitted from this account was one life-changing exchange with Dr. X.  At some point, during Phase II of The Ritual Reception and Rejection, I asked him, “Given that The Institute is such a charismatic place, and given that you have no room, where do all the people go when you reject them?  There must be a lot of them around Santa Fe.” 

 

I am everlastingly grateful for his response.  He thought a very long minute and then scribbled on a Posty and handed it to me.  It said, “Call Steve Guerin.  FRIAM.” 

 

The rest is history. 

 

Nick

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 12:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] SFI to Trump: The dangers of simplicity in a complex world

 

I appreciate FriAM, even though I don't attend Friday Congregation very often, or even WedTech Congregation either!   The *active* voices here are familiar and even though I may have a lot of different perspectives and opinions, I truly value what I hear here, and more than anything I look forward to one of our *many* lurkers chiming in.  

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like, but I like knowing that there are many with strong Complexity backgrounds engaged in the more sociopolitical discussions that seem to dominate.

Since I feel a bit like Glen in his statement "Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there"...  I'm enough used to being an outsider or an interloper that I generally can slip into alien situations and keep a low enough profile to not raise alarm or cause disruption.

This forum, being asynchronous and as Gary points out, "easy to delete" feels like a safe place FOR me to speak up above a hushed whisper... so I value it as well.  

SFx was intended to be a more open and welcoming environment to share the wealth from... I think we did a moderately good job much of the time, but still missed the mark in at least developing a sustainable funding model.

- Steve

 

On 2/6/17 11:49 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway - FRIAM, both the list and the actual gathering at the "mothership" of Santa Fe - has always felt welcoming. It's the only list I've stayed with since its inception. I don't know if there are any SFI lurkers here, but there do seem to be a lot of people who "used to" have some association with it rather than those who are actively involved with it. I've no idea how much is due to a bit of snobbery vs. just simply the fact that the list is open to such a wide range of stuff that isn't interesting to folks interested purely in complexity. I find it easy enough just to delete messages when I get too overwhelmed, confident that they are archived so I can eventually look them over.

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:34 PM, glen ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

FWIW, I felt fairly unwelcome soon after I left to work in our Agua Fria office (1997 maybe), perhaps since I was merely a research technician rather than any sort of academic.  Then it got even worse when they expanded down the hill by staffing a receptionist.  I always managed to sneak past without being grilled to badly ... but the concept was clear: do you belong here?  Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there. 8^)


On 02/05/2017 03:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> That makes sense but I just sat there quietly and listened.  No
> self-aggrandizing questions. And then I left.

--
☣ glen

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[Owen Densmore]

As with most MOOCs and other on-line video courses, the trick is to choose the right one.

Case in point. Guerin discovered a great linear algebra set of videos that focus on visualization rather than core math .. not avoiding the math but visualization first.

  Essence of linear algebra

  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZHQObOWTQDPD3MizzM2xVFitgF8hE_ab

For the more techie end of things, we found a great set for es6, the new version of javascript that basically reinvents javascript .. its almost a new language with backwards compatibility for "legacy".

It's an art to find the right material. I found one of the Complexity Explorers that actually did a great job, both of explaining differential equations, but also what they are good for.  All pretty much just with algebra.

Nick can easily do these if so inclined.

   -- Owen

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 8:47 PM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Take a gander, you old gander <grin>... there may be something in there worthy of a little study.  It is rich with material... but maybe overwhelmingly so!

On 2/6/17 8:43 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Owen, Steve,

 

I am embarrassed to say, this is the first I have heard of it.

 

It may be too late for this old bird.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 8:25 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Complexity Science for (us) Dummies

 

Complexity Explorer is the best thing SFI has produced, other than perhaps there video library of talks. For me, anyway.

 

   -- Owen

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick -

Vortices aside, I just checked the Syllabi of the Complexity Explorer and find that there are MANY courses that might be of interest to you.  Do you find the language in them out of reach?  Would having a small study group online help with that?    Are there any particular topics there ( https://www.complexityexplorer.org/explore/syllabi) of interest?

- Steve

On 2/6/17 3:51 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:

Nick -

I DO remember he tornado/vortex/swirlie discussions of yore, and in fact, those were characteristic of the discussions I appreciated there being here, just as I appreciated the "book club" you spearheaded on a Complexity topic even earlier (what book was that?).  I also appreciated your "noodling" concept back in the day (not complexity as such, excepting for the idea of emergent knowledge).   I think your contribution to this list, with your own specific background and as an unabashed "innocent' on many topics is very valuable.  I realize my encouraging Doug in his juvenile responses (e.g. Swirlies) did undermine your attempt to be serious about tornadoes, but it DID lead you to meeting his Parrots I think?   I have a fresh batch of Ravens at my place who  you are welcome to come engage with their vocalizations (no wife now to limit my open invitations, just a vicious dog who I can sequester with minor warning).

I agree that the deeper methods of Complexity Science ARE difficult and subtle, but in many ways more intuitive and accessible (IMO) than those of Relativistic and Quantum Physics.   The *ideas* (as I think Glen suggests) *are* pretty available...  I would suggest that your own field might be harder for educated laypersons from "adjacent fields" to grasp, with even more reserved terminology?  The fact that Complexity Science spans (virtually?) all sciences ( and engineering and technology ) means it *must* be accessible laterally.  There is little to no value to stovepiping it.   I know some folks have made quite a living off of making Complexity Science arcane... but far from all.  I think SFI does a very good job in general.

I don't know what it can be done in this forum, but perhaps.  I think that what complexityexplorer.org (thanks to SFI) is trying to do is exactly what you are seeking?   I sat in on the first round (online ) but it was "remedial" enough for me to not hold my interest, though I *do* much need the thoroughness involved.   I had hoped there would form a "study group" here to follow the classes and have lots of peer support.  I don't remember their being much engagement in this forum?

I will agree with Glen's observation that a "complexity perspective" is ever-present here, which is part of what makes it all worthwhile.   I withdraw any implication that we need more use of arcane complexity science terminology, or that what we *do* have here isn't appreciated.

- Steve

 

 

 

 

 

On 2/6/17 1:39 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Dear all,

 

Steve Smith wrote:

 

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like,

 

I will talk about tornado formation, a n y   t I m e, Steve. 

 

Seriously, I wonder if the fact that we have stopped talking about complexity might have something to do with the state of play of that field.  I reached a point where I began to feel that complexity-talk went on in some alternative universe that, without the initiation and the golden key, I was never going to enter. You will remember, Steve, that  I worked for a couple of years, trying to make a translation between that universe and mine, and was never able to manage it.  When the working vocabulary of a science is inaccessible to a diligent, moderately intelligent, practitioner of neighboring sciences, does that not limit the development of that science?

 

By the way, when I first came out here I tried to make contact with SFI.  At the time, I wrote up the result in a satirical account, which, to be honest, reeks of sour grapes.  Still, in the present context you might find it funny.  See attached.

 

Omitted from this account was one life-changing exchange with Dr. X.  At some point, during Phase II of The Ritual Reception and Rejection, I asked him, “Given that The Institute is such a charismatic place, and given that you have no room, where do all the people go when you reject them?  There must be a lot of them around Santa Fe.” 

 

I am everlastingly grateful for his response.  He thought a very long minute and then scribbled on a Posty and handed it to me.  It said, “Call Steve Guerin.  FRIAM.” 

 

The rest is history. 

 

Nick

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 12:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] SFI to Trump: The dangers of simplicity in a complex world

 

I appreciate FriAM, even though I don't attend Friday Congregation very often, or even WedTech Congregation either!   The *active* voices here are familiar and even though I may have a lot of different perspectives and opinions, I truly value what I hear here, and more than anything I look forward to one of our *many* lurkers chiming in.  

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like, but I like knowing that there are many with strong Complexity backgrounds engaged in the more sociopolitical discussions that seem to dominate.

Since I feel a bit like Glen in his statement "Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there"...  I'm enough used to being an outsider or an interloper that I generally can slip into alien situations and keep a low enough profile to not raise alarm or cause disruption.

This forum, being asynchronous and as Gary points out, "easy to delete" feels like a safe place FOR me to speak up above a hushed whisper... so I value it as well.  

SFx was intended to be a more open and welcoming environment to share the wealth from... I think we did a moderately good job much of the time, but still missed the mark in at least developing a sustainable funding model.

- Steve

 

On 2/6/17 11:49 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway - FRIAM, both the list and the actual gathering at the "mothership" of Santa Fe - has always felt welcoming. It's the only list I've stayed with since its inception. I don't know if there are any SFI lurkers here, but there do seem to be a lot of people who "used to" have some association with it rather than those who are actively involved with it. I've no idea how much is due to a bit of snobbery vs. just simply the fact that the list is open to such a wide range of stuff that isn't interesting to folks interested purely in complexity. I find it easy enough just to delete messages when I get too overwhelmed, confident that they are archived so I can eventually look them over.

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:34 PM, glen ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

FWIW, I felt fairly unwelcome soon after I left to work in our Agua Fria office (1997 maybe), perhaps since I was merely a research technician rather than any sort of academic.  Then it got even worse when they expanded down the hill by staffing a receptionist.  I always managed to sneak past without being grilled to badly ... but the concept was clear: do you belong here?  Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there. 8^)


On 02/05/2017 03:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> That makes sense but I just sat there quietly and listened.  No
> self-aggrandizing questions. And then I left.

--
☣ glen

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Nick Thompson]

He can????!

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 8:56 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Complexity Science for (us) Dummies

 

As with most MOOCs and other on-line video courses, the trick is to choose the right one.

 

Case in point. Guerin discovered a great linear algebra set of videos that focus on visualization rather than core math .. not avoiding the math but visualization first.

  Essence of linear algebra

  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZHQObOWTQDPD3MizzM2xVFitgF8hE_ab

 

For the more techie end of things, we found a great set for es6, the new version of javascript that basically reinvents javascript .. its almost a new language with backwards compatibility for "legacy".

 

It's an art to find the right material. I found one of the Complexity Explorers that actually did a great job, both of explaining differential equations, but also what they are good for.  All pretty much just with algebra.

 

Nick can easily do these if so inclined.

 

   -- Owen

 

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 8:47 PM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Take a gander, you old gander <grin>... there may be something in there worthy of a little study.  It is rich with material... but maybe overwhelmingly so!

 

On 2/6/17 8:43 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Owen, Steve,

 

I am embarrassed to say, this is the first I have heard of it.

 

It may be too late for this old bird.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 8:25 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Complexity Science for (us) Dummies

 

Complexity Explorer is the best thing SFI has produced, other than perhaps there video library of talks. For me, anyway.

 

   -- Owen

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick -

Vortices aside, I just checked the Syllabi of the Complexity Explorer and find that there are MANY courses that might be of interest to you.  Do you find the language in them out of reach?  Would having a small study group online help with that?    Are there any particular topics there ( https://www.complexityexplorer.org/explore/syllabi) of interest?

- Steve

On 2/6/17 3:51 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:

Nick -

I DO remember he tornado/vortex/swirlie discussions of yore, and in fact, those were characteristic of the discussions I appreciated there being here, just as I appreciated the "book club" you spearheaded on a Complexity topic even earlier (what book was that?).  I also appreciated your "noodling" concept back in the day (not complexity as such, excepting for the idea of emergent knowledge).   I think your contribution to this list, with your own specific background and as an unabashed "innocent' on many topics is very valuable.  I realize my encouraging Doug in his juvenile responses (e.g. Swirlies) did undermine your attempt to be serious about tornadoes, but it DID lead you to meeting his Parrots I think?   I have a fresh batch of Ravens at my place who  you are welcome to come engage with their vocalizations (no wife now to limit my open invitations, just a vicious dog who I can sequester with minor warning).

I agree that the deeper methods of Complexity Science ARE difficult and subtle, but in many ways more intuitive and accessible (IMO) than those of Relativistic and Quantum Physics.   The *ideas* (as I think Glen suggests) *are* pretty available...  I would suggest that your own field might be harder for educated laypersons from "adjacent fields" to grasp, with even more reserved terminology?  The fact that Complexity Science spans (virtually?) all sciences ( and engineering and technology ) means it *must* be accessible laterally.  There is little to no value to stovepiping it.   I know some folks have made quite a living off of making Complexity Science arcane... but far from all.  I think SFI does a very good job in general.

I don't know what it can be done in this forum, but perhaps.  I think that what complexityexplorer.org (thanks to SFI) is trying to do is exactly what you are seeking?   I sat in on the first round (online ) but it was "remedial" enough for me to not hold my interest, though I *do* much need the thoroughness involved.   I had hoped there would form a "study group" here to follow the classes and have lots of peer support.  I don't remember their being much engagement in this forum?

I will agree with Glen's observation that a "complexity perspective" is ever-present here, which is part of what makes it all worthwhile.   I withdraw any implication that we need more use of arcane complexity science terminology, or that what we *do* have here isn't appreciated.

- Steve

 

 

 

 

 

On 2/6/17 1:39 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Dear all,

 

Steve Smith wrote:

 

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like,

 

I will talk about tornado formation, a n y   t I m e, Steve. 

 

Seriously, I wonder if the fact that we have stopped talking about complexity might have something to do with the state of play of that field.  I reached a point where I began to feel that complexity-talk went on in some alternative universe that, without the initiation and the golden key, I was never going to enter. You will remember, Steve, that  I worked for a couple of years, trying to make a translation between that universe and mine, and was never able to manage it.  When the working vocabulary of a science is inaccessible to a diligent, moderately intelligent, practitioner of neighboring sciences, does that not limit the development of that science?

 

By the way, when I first came out here I tried to make contact with SFI.  At the time, I wrote up the result in a satirical account, which, to be honest, reeks of sour grapes.  Still, in the present context you might find it funny.  See attached.

 

Omitted from this account was one life-changing exchange with Dr. X.  At some point, during Phase II of The Ritual Reception and Rejection, I asked him, “Given that The Institute is such a charismatic place, and given that you have no room, where do all the people go when you reject them?  There must be a lot of them around Santa Fe.” 

 

I am everlastingly grateful for his response.  He thought a very long minute and then scribbled on a Posty and handed it to me.  It said, “Call Steve Guerin.  FRIAM.” 

 

The rest is history. 

 

Nick

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2017 12:00 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] SFI to Trump: The dangers of simplicity in a complex world

 

I appreciate FriAM, even though I don't attend Friday Congregation very often, or even WedTech Congregation either!   The *active* voices here are familiar and even though I may have a lot of different perspectives and opinions, I truly value what I hear here, and more than anything I look forward to one of our *many* lurkers chiming in.  

I feel we *don't* discuss as many Complexity topics as I would like, but I like knowing that there are many with strong Complexity backgrounds engaged in the more sociopolitical discussions that seem to dominate.

Since I feel a bit like Glen in his statement "Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there"...  I'm enough used to being an outsider or an interloper that I generally can slip into alien situations and keep a low enough profile to not raise alarm or cause disruption.

This forum, being asynchronous and as Gary points out, "easy to delete" feels like a safe place FOR me to speak up above a hushed whisper... so I value it as well.  

SFx was intended to be a more open and welcoming environment to share the wealth from... I think we did a moderately good job much of the time, but still missed the mark in at least developing a sustainable funding model.

- Steve

 

On 2/6/17 11:49 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway - FRIAM, both the list and the actual gathering at the "mothership" of Santa Fe - has always felt welcoming. It's the only list I've stayed with since its inception. I don't know if there are any SFI lurkers here, but there do seem to be a lot of people who "used to" have some association with it rather than those who are actively involved with it. I've no idea how much is due to a bit of snobbery vs. just simply the fact that the list is open to such a wide range of stuff that isn't interesting to folks interested purely in complexity. I find it easy enough just to delete messages when I get too overwhelmed, confident that they are archived so I can eventually look them over.

 

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:34 PM, glen ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

FWIW, I felt fairly unwelcome soon after I left to work in our Agua Fria office (1997 maybe), perhaps since I was merely a research technician rather than any sort of academic.  Then it got even worse when they expanded down the hill by staffing a receptionist.  I always managed to sneak past without being grilled to badly ... but the concept was clear: do you belong here?  Since I don't belong anywhere, I obviously didn't belong there. 8^)


On 02/05/2017 03:40 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> That makes sense but I just sat there quietly and listened.  No
> self-aggrandizing questions. And then I left.

--
☣ glen

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============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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