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Re: post you seem to have missed from FRIAM

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Nick Thompson

Re: post you seem to have missed from FRIAM

Thanks, Dave,

I didn't get your message until I came back from FRIAM, and so didn't pick up the book at the ST. Johns Library or Bookstore. So, it will be a day or so. But I will do as you say.

Your question about a behavioralist treatise is a good one (Actually nobody says behaviorAList) and I am have not thought about it since I quit teaching a dozen years ago. I will ponder on it, and perhaps ask others. In the meantime, may I recommend my best attempt to explain the roots of my particular form of behaviorism -- "holistic behaviorism", if you will-- which is rooted both in philosophical behaviorism and the psychological kind. The article was written for a volume on the New Realism, and I defer to the topic at many places in the essay. But the line of argument and the sources cited are in service of a form of "up-reductive" behaviorism. I have probably sent it to before, so probably need to think of something else, but perhaps this will keep you busy for a few days. I think the conversational format makes it easy to read.

Thanks again, Dave. Today's meeting was really great. Two conversations, one about the currently political situation, and one about qualia, dualism, and the question of whether academia has totally lost its credibility as a place of creative intellectual and technical development.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 8:21 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] post you seem to have missed from FRIAM

Nick,

After Service, you might pick up a copy of Clifford Gertz's The Interpretation of Culture and read
"Chapter 1 — Thick Description: Towards an Interpretive Theory of Culture;"
"Chapter 8 — Ideology as a Cultural System;" and
"Chapter 3 — The Growth of Culture and the Evolution of Mind."

When you find that he is easy to read and yourself intrigued, go ahead and read the rest of the book.

In your spare time: please send me an accessible source by which I might come to understand "behavior" and "behavioralism" as you speak of them. I confess to finding the whole notion untenable and that means I must not understand it sufficiently.

Thanks,

dave west

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019, at 4:02 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

> Thanks for these comments.
>
> Sorry, I used the word "school" in a very idiosyncratic way -- to mean
> a group of people who, while they don't agree, necessarily, are so
> thoroughly familiar with one another's positions that they can state
> them to the owner's satisfaction and represent them in the owner's
> absence.
>
> I am going to think about all of this. Now I have to get ready for
> the Weekly Service.
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A
> Smith
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 6:48 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] post you seem to have missed from FRIAM
>
> Nick -
>
> I'll second Glen's suggestion that you delineate as best you can,
> specific things you don't understand and iterate with one or more of us
> an those as best you can. As evidenced by my discussion with Glen on
> "means of production", it can be rather grueling for both sides, but
> since I have a lot of trust in Glen's good intentions and his
> commitment to not just throw up his hands and give up on the
> discussion, we are powering through it and I *think* getting somewhere.
> More on that on that thread soon.
>
> What I hear you saying is that our perspectives/experiences feel too
> foreign to you to to know where to start? While my response was
> rather wordy (as are all of my submissions), I think my perspective
> might be closer to yours than Dave's for sure and perhaps others.
>
> - Steve
>
> On 11/21/19 5:08 PM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:
> > The only way to fix this is to do what I'm trying to do with Steve in the "means of production" thread. He seemed to use "means of production" as if it's a meaningful concept. And because I can't make sense of the phrase, I've asked him why he finds it meaningful. Then when he explains himself, I *try* to say what I thought he said but in my own words.
> >
> > Checking your rendition of what you think a person might say against that person is the only way to get better. You have to always ask "Did I restate your position right?"
> >
> > I don't intend to harass you, here. And I'm probably wrong. But I don't recall you ever doing that on this mailing list. You seem to hold quite fast to your side of the discussion. I'm a hypocrite, of course, because I don't do it anywhere near as much as I should. It's a flaw in our (particularly we males) ways of interacting. We're more interested in talking than listening. You could try it, now, by repeating back to one of us what you *think* we're saying and hope that person takes the (often significant) time, effort, and good will to iterate.
> >
> > Of course, that type of iteration is *nothing* like what we tend to get in "school".
> >
> > On 11/21/19 10:05 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> >> Your reactions to my "puritan" probe completely surprised me, and I realize that I don't have a good grip on your perspectives. In a good "school", I should be able to anticipate, or even channel, the reactions of other members such that I could, if necessary, fill in if one of you were absent. But I can't. I would like to do better.
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe
> at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe
> at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Old New Realist PDF to DOCX to PDF.pdf (473K) Download Attachment

Prof David West

Re: post you seem to have missed from FRIAM

FRIAM conversations can be quite satisfying. I suspect the political one would have exercised my schadenfreude quite heavily as, even other, mainstream, observers are starting to agree with my long held position that the whole impeachment effort is a huge gift to mr trump. As long as I am tossing opinions around with wild abandon; academia retains some vestige of credibility for narrowly defined technical development, but anything "creative" has long fled the scene.

Reading you paper and will send questions soon.

davew

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019, at 9:24 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Thanks, Dave,

I didn't get your message until I came back from FRIAM, and so didn't pick up the book at the ST. Johns Library or Bookstore. So, it will be a day or so. But I will do as you say.

Your question about a behavioralist treatise is a good one (Actually nobody says behaviorAList) and I am have not thought about it since I quit teaching a dozen years ago. I will ponder on it, and perhaps ask others. In the meantime, may I recommend my best attempt to explain the roots of my particular form of behaviorism -- "holistic behaviorism", if you will-- which is rooted both in philosophical behaviorism and the psychological kind.   The article was written for a volume on the New Realism, and I defer to the topic at many places in the essay. But the line of argument and the sources cited are in service of a form of "up-reductive" behaviorism.   I have probably sent it to before, so probably need to think of something else, but perhaps this will keep you busy for a few days.   I think the conversational format makes it easy to read.

Thanks again, Dave. Today's meeting was really great. Two conversations, one about the currently political situation, and one about qualia, dualism, and the question of whether academia has totally lost its credibility as a place of creative intellectual and technical development.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 8:21 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] post you seem to have missed from FRIAM

Nick,

After Service, you might pick up a copy of Clifford Gertz's The Interpretation of Culture and read
     "Chapter 1 — Thick Description: Towards an Interpretive Theory of Culture;"
       "Chapter 8 — Ideology as a Cultural System;" and
       "Chapter 3 — The Growth of Culture and the Evolution of Mind."

When you find that he is easy to read and yourself intrigued, go ahead and read the rest of the book.

In your spare time: please send me an accessible source by which I might come to understand "behavior" and "behavioralism" as you speak of them. I confess to finding the whole notion untenable and that means I must not understand it sufficiently.

Thanks,

dave west

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019, at 4:02 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> Thanks for these comments.
>
> Sorry, I used the word "school" in a very idiosyncratic way -- to mean
> a group of people who, while they don't agree, necessarily, are so
> thoroughly familiar with one another's positions that they can state
> them to the owner's satisfaction and represent them in the owner's
> absence.
>
> I am going to think about all of this. Now I have to get ready for
> the Weekly Service.
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A
> Smith
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 6:48 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] post you seem to have missed from FRIAM
>
> Nick -
>
> I'll second Glen's suggestion that you delineate as best you can,
> specific things you don't understand and iterate with one or more of us
> an those as best you can.   As evidenced by my discussion with Glen on
> "means of production", it can be rather grueling for both sides, but
> since I have a lot of trust in Glen's good intentions and his
> commitment to not just throw up his hands and give up on the
> discussion, we are powering through it and I *think* getting somewhere.
> More on that on that thread soon.
>
> What I hear you saying is that our perspectives/experiences feel too
> foreign to you to to know where to start?   While my response was
> rather wordy (as are all of my submissions), I think my perspective
> might be closer to yours than Dave's for sure and perhaps others.
>
> - Steve
>
> On 11/21/19 5:08 PM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:
> > The only way to fix this is to do what I'm trying to do with Steve in the "means of production" thread. He seemed to use "means of production" as if it's a meaningful concept. And because I can't make sense of the phrase, I've asked him why he finds it meaningful. Then when he explains himself, I *try* to say what I thought he said but in my own words.
> >
> > Checking your rendition of what you think a person might say against that person is the only way to get better. You have to always ask "Did I restate your position right?"
> >
> > I don't intend to harass you, here. And I'm probably wrong. But I don't recall you ever doing that on this mailing list. You seem to hold quite fast to your side of the discussion. I'm a hypocrite, of course, because I don't do it anywhere near as much as I should. It's a flaw in our (particularly we males) ways of interacting. We're more interested in talking than listening. You could try it, now, by repeating back to one of us what you *think* we're saying and hope that person takes the (often significant) time, effort, and good will to iterate.
> >
> > Of course, that type of iteration is *nothing* like what we tend to get in "school".
> >
> > On 11/21/19 10:05 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> >> Your reactions to my "puritan" probe completely surprised me, and I realize that I don't have a good grip on your perspectives. In a good "school", I should be able to anticipate, or even channel, the reactions of other members such that I could, if necessary, fill in if one of you were absent.   But I can't. I would like to do better.
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe
> at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe
> at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Attachments:
Old New Realist PDF to DOCX to PDF.pdf