Friam

Re: Trump as a victim

Classic

List

Threaded

31 messages Options

gepr

Re: Trump as a victim

A collection of people, who shall remain nameless, recently tried to shame me for objecting to their waste of empathy for poor lil ol Trump, in light of his infection. One argument went something like "His father was horrible." One primary argument went something like "empathy begets empathy". Empathy is not zero-sum. Etc.

I started my objection to all this Trump-as-a-victim talk by listing several aspects of his CHARMED LIFE, like the fact that he's lucky enough to have lived to a ripe old age (when so many of us die young), he was born wealthy (when so many of us live our entire lives dirt poor), his stupid TV show was wildly successful (when so many of us are serial failures), his weaponized litigousness has benefited him throughout his life (when so many of us can't even afford a lawyer). Etc.

All that *privilege* has been bestowed upon him. And it seems, to me, he's squandered it all. He reminds me of those pitiful pictures of Saddam Hussein in court and then prison and then dead. Oh boo-hoo, poor little dictator being mistreated. Such sentiments are not merely weird to me. If game theory and the success of simplistic tit-for-tat has taught us anything, it is that the algorithmic *depth* required to beat straightforward (poetic) "justice" is academically interesting, but pragmatically degenerate.

So, no. I will not waste any of my finite lifetime feeling sorry for poor lil ol Trump, our Privilege Squanderer in Chief. If that magically limits my ability to empathize in some other context, so be it. If it implies that when I die pathetically, under some bridge, eating partial hamburgers from the Wendy's dumpster, my colleagues *rightly* avoid wasting their finite lifetimes feeling sorry for me, then I'm ready for that day. Like it or not, tu quoque is a fallacy.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Trump as a victim

Empathy requires attention and time, and anyone else is a better use of it. Quoting from Utopia, "What you have you done today to earn your place in this big crowded world of ours?"

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 5:54 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

A collection of people, who shall remain nameless, recently tried to shame me for objecting to their waste of empathy for poor lil ol Trump, in light of his infection. One argument went something like "His father was horrible." One primary argument went something like "empathy begets empathy". Empathy is not zero-sum. Etc.

I started my objection to all this Trump-as-a-victim talk by listing several aspects of his CHARMED LIFE, like the fact that he's lucky enough to have lived to a ripe old age (when so many of us die young), he was born wealthy (when so many of us live our entire lives dirt poor), his stupid TV show was wildly successful (when so many of us are serial failures), his weaponized litigousness has benefited him throughout his life (when so many of us can't even afford a lawyer). Etc.

All that *privilege* has been bestowed upon him. And it seems, to me, he's squandered it all. He reminds me of those pitiful pictures of Saddam Hussein in court and then prison and then dead. Oh boo-hoo, poor little dictator being mistreated. Such sentiments are not merely weird to me. If game theory and the success of simplistic tit-for-tat has taught us anything, it is that the algorithmic *depth* required to beat straightforward (poetic) "justice" is academically interesting, but pragmatically degenerate.

So, no. I will not waste any of my finite lifetime feeling sorry for poor lil ol Trump, our Privilege Squanderer in Chief. If that magically limits my ability to empathize in some other context, so be it. If it implies that when I die pathetically, under some bridge, eating partial hamburgers from the Wendy's dumpster, my colleagues *rightly* avoid wasting their finite lifetimes feeling sorry for me, then I'm ready for that day. Like it or not, tu quoque is a fallacy.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: Trump as a victim

In reply to this post by gepr

Glen,

I don't think of empathy as something that you gin up; it either happens to you, or it doesn't. And then you decide what you want to do with your empathy. As a child, perhaps,, did you ever read any of Ernest Thompson Seton's (no relative) Lives of the Hunted? The wolf, terror of the Corrumpaw (?), wily killer of sheep, evader of traps, lies before you in a cage, wounded and helpless. You feel empathy. And so you kill it. Anybody who tells you that you should feel empathy lacks empathy for your lack of empathy. I WILL feel empathy for Trump when he's tried. I dread those trials. In fact, even watching him twist and lie and twist and lie, watching him contort, makes me queasy inside, like watching a man tortured. But empathy, like rage, is just another emotion, and needs, like all emotions, to be tempered with reason.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 6:54 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

I started my objection to all this Trump-as-a-victim talk by listing several aspects of his CHARMED LIFE, like the fact that he's lucky enough to have lived to a ripe old age (when so many of us die young), he was born wealthy (when so many of us live our entire lives dirt poor), his stupid TV show was wildly successful (when so many of us are serial failures), his weaponized litigousness has benefited him throughout his life (when so many of us can't even afford a lawyer). Etc.

All that *privilege* has been bestowed upon him. And it seems, to me, he's squandered it all. He reminds me of those pitiful pictures of Saddam Hussein in court and then prison and then dead. Oh boo-hoo, poor little dictator being mistreated. Such sentiments are not merely weird to me. If game theory and the success of simplistic tit-for-tat has taught us anything, it is that the algorithmic *depth* required to beat straightforward (poetic) "justice" is academically interesting, but pragmatically degenerate.

So, no. I will not waste any of my finite lifetime feeling sorry for poor lil ol Trump, our Privilege Squanderer in Chief. If that magically limits my ability to empathize in some other context, so be it. If it implies that when I die pathetically, under some bridge, eating partial hamburgers from the Wendy's dumpster, my colleagues *rightly* avoid wasting their finite lifetimes feeling sorry for me, then I'm ready for that day. Like it or not, tu quoque is a fallacy.

↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

Re: Trump as a victim

In reply to this post by gepr

glen/marcus -

My mantra in this context is: "we all got to be the way we are somehow".

I can claim with seriousness that I *do* spend some of my empathy cycles, trying to grok WTF leads to a Donald Trump, and more to the point what leads to a Donald Trump at the head of our Executive Branch stumbling through his days of Fox&Friends and Twitter without having triggered *even more* disasters than it feels he has managed to exacerbate if not downright generate. My *empathy* kicks in when I try to sort out the various "but by the grace of god there go I" reflections each time I try to imagine what psychological gymnastics he must have gone through at each stage or inflection point in his life.

A study of his own children is probably a little easier than the study of him, since they are busy forming at his knee (under his thumb?) right now... His formation under the wing (and boot?) of Fred Sr. (and Roy Cohn and Roger Stone and ???) is a little obscured by time and a surely sqewed/muted record. Barron is somewhat obscured from us, but when I do catch a glimpse of him or hear a happy-story about him from one of the puff journalists, I cringe a little whilst also wanting to imagine that he can magically rise up and flip the whole precedent on it's head. "Pull a Mowgli" or somesuch. From the similarly thin glimpses I get of Melania, I don't get much sense that she is "helping" the situation much, though she is surely buffering better than Donald's mother was able to do. She (and others) seem to like to observe that he is a "little Donald" which sounds rather tragic on the face of it. I can't say I waste a *lot* of my energy on all of this, but they do make an interesting pseudo-public study in dysfunctional family dynamics... filling perhaps the same niche of morbid fascination as the royal family provides for the Anglophile/Commonwealth? I hear that Prince Harry has lost another title over having endorsed Biden-Harris. I suspect Meghan (at least) is muttering "good riddance" to that title.

I'm no fan of reality TV in most if not all of it's forms (I think I managed to get a kick out of one Ice Road Truckers and one Russian Guy Builds Log Cabin in Siberia episode/podcast but wasn't compelled to return) but I will admit to being stimulated via morbid fascination with the news-stream as Trump flops around in public like the villain in a melodrama trying to hold the stage for the entire last act as he dies dramatically. Trump seems to have nothing in his portfolio but a string of ghastly public failures where *he* slips out from under the crumbling building just in time to go on to slap a fat T on another one and start dismantling it from the foundation up like a hungry termite.

Reminds me a bit too much of that psychological thriller "Pacific Heights" with Michael Keaton as a psychopathic Donald-type:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Heights_(film)

- Steve

On 10/7/20 6:53 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Trump as a victim

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Once one practices modulating a class of these feelings it changes how or even if one experiences them. Having empathy can just be another form of being reactive which is not a good way for adults to be IMO. It is equally reactive to be enraged every time Trump or Trumpers are on TV. They dehumanized themselves.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 9:07 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

Glen,

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 6:54 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

Re: Trump as a victim

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick -

I agree that empathy is a bit spontaneous and emergent for me. But I *can* cultivate or subdue it somewhat. This is one of the roles of my *morbid fascination*, which is to *allow* me to cultivate empathy were my first impulse is revulsion or vengeance.

Your image of Trump on Trial *does* trigger memories of the way Saddam Hussein was pictured at HIS trials.

I fear this is not that likely to ever emerge, I don't think we have the moral courage as a country to face our own rotten parts... I could be wrong, and I want to hope we can face our own (deep) failures in some way similar to what Rwanda and/or South Africa and even Post WWII Germany was forced to (by circumstance?) after their darkest years. I don't know that we have sunk low enough yet TO be forced into that. And my instincts make it really hard for me to root for the kinds of disasters I think Dave and Marcus both flirt with (though I understand that kind of collapse may be the most efficient path to any kind of sweeping (and deep) recovery).

I was raised on the movie version of "Lobo" (shown in my classroom every year of elementary school?) rather than "the Terror of Corrumpaw" original. I think that version Lobo was a more empathetic character, because Disney? I didn't know until I looked it up that the movie *was* derived/inspired by Seton's version.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Lobo

- Steve

Glen,

I don't think of empathy as something that you gin up; it either happens to you, or it doesn't. And then you decide what you want to do with your empathy. As a child, perhaps,, did you ever read any of Ernest Thompson Seton's (no relative) Lives of the Hunted? The wolf, terror of the Corrumpaw (?), wily killer of sheep, evader of traps, lies before you in a cage, wounded and helpless. You feel empathy. And so you kill it. Anybody who tells you that you should feel empathy lacks empathy for your lack of empathy. I WILL feel empathy for Trump when he's tried. I dread those trials. In fact, even watching him twist and lie and twist and lie, watching him contort, makes me queasy inside, like watching a man tortured. But empathy, like rage, is just another emotion, and needs, like all emotions, to be tempered with reason.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 6:54 AM
To: FriAM [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

A collection of people, who shall remain nameless, recently tried to shame me for objecting to their waste of empathy for poor lil ol Trump, in light of his infection. One argument went something like "His father was horrible." One primary argument went something like "empathy begets empathy". Empathy is not zero-sum. Etc.

I started my objection to all this Trump-as-a-victim talk by listing several aspects of his CHARMED LIFE, like the fact that he's lucky enough to have lived to a ripe old age (when so many of us die young), he was born wealthy (when so many of us live our entire lives dirt poor), his stupid TV show was wildly successful (when so many of us are serial failures), his weaponized litigousness has benefited him throughout his life (when so many of us can't even afford a lawyer). Etc.

All that *privilege* has been bestowed upon him. And it seems, to me, he's squandered it all. He reminds me of those pitiful pictures of Saddam Hussein in court and then prison and then dead. Oh boo-hoo, poor little dictator being mistreated. Such sentiments are not merely weird to me. If game theory and the success of simplistic tit-for-tat has taught us anything, it is that the algorithmic *depth* required to beat straightforward (poetic) "justice" is academically interesting, but pragmatically degenerate.

So, no. I will not waste any of my finite lifetime feeling sorry for poor lil ol Trump, our Privilege Squanderer in Chief. If that magically limits my ability to empathize in some other context, so be it. If it implies that when I die pathetically, under some bridge, eating partial hamburgers from the Wendy's dumpster, my colleagues *rightly* avoid wasting their finite lifetimes feeling sorry for me, then I'm ready for that day. Like it or not, tu quoque is a fallacy.

--

↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Trump as a victim

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

I feel empathy and sympathy for the little baby Donald before the remote mother and the overweening father made their imprint on him.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 9:38 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Empathy requires attention and time, and anyone else is a better use of it. Quoting from Utopia, "What you have you done today to earn your place in this big crowded world of ours?"

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 5:54 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

A collection of people, who shall remain nameless, recently tried to shame me for objecting to their waste of empathy for poor lil ol Trump, in light of his infection. One argument went something like "His father was horrible." One primary argument went something like "empathy begets empathy". Empathy is not zero-sum. Etc.

I started my objection to all this Trump-as-a-victim talk by listing several aspects of his CHARMED LIFE, like the fact that he's lucky enough to have lived to a ripe old age (when so many of us die young), he was born wealthy (when so many of us live our entire lives dirt poor), his stupid TV show was wildly successful (when so many of us are serial failures), his weaponized litigousness has benefited him throughout his life (when so many of us can't even afford a lawyer). Etc.

All that *privilege* has been bestowed upon him. And it seems, to me, he's squandered it all. He reminds me of those pitiful pictures of Saddam Hussein in court and then prison and then dead. Oh boo-hoo, poor little dictator being mistreated. Such sentiments are not merely weird to me. If game theory and the success of simplistic tit-for-tat has taught us anything, it is that the algorithmic *depth* required to beat straightforward (poetic) "justice" is academically interesting, but pragmatically degenerate.

So, no. I will not waste any of my finite lifetime feeling sorry for poor lil ol Trump, our Privilege Squanderer in Chief. If that magically limits my ability to empathize in some other context, so be it. If it implies that when I die pathetically, under some bridge, eating partial hamburgers from the Wendy's dumpster, my colleagues *rightly* avoid wasting their finite lifetimes feeling sorry for me, then I'm ready for that day. Like it or not, tu quoque is a fallacy.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

Re: Trump as a victim

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Marcus Daniels wrote:

Once one practices modulating a class of these feelings it changes how or even if one experiences them. Having empathy can just be another form of being reactive which is not a good way for adults to be IMO. It is equally reactive to be enraged every time Trump or Trumpers are on TV. They dehumanized themselves.

I believe that suppressing one's pity/sympathy/empathy/compassion entirely is the "reactive" mode... I suspect our friend Donald started down that path at a very young age and has only the barest echoes or ghosts of those feelings remaining. I knew too many "western men" as a child who seemed to have done the same with their relationship to nature and animals... being brutal with predators/varmints leading to a certain brutality to prey (game animals) to their own working stock (cattle, sheep, rabbits, horses, dogs) and then ultimately their families (wives, children) and could-have-been friends. They were not devoid of this, but there was something about the lifestyle and circumstance (and social context) that seemed to strongly encourage, if not require, that suppression of empathy.

As a teen I was faced with a looming conscription to go to Vietnam and "kill some gooks" (sorry for the patently non-PC framing, but it captures at least half of the image of the time) as well as being faced with letting that happen and returning to the other half of the country shouting "baby killer" in my face. I *knew* that these were not my only two choices, but it forced (opportuned?) me to consider what I had to lose if I let my own country (and most of it's citizens) inject me (like a pinball) into that pinball game of "no good choices". What I had to lose was my empathy, as underformed and possibly even maladapted as it was at 14 or 16 or 18 years old.

I am not willing to treat empathy as nothing more than an "emotional reaction", though I acknowledge that it is informed (sorry Nick, I can't help using that idiom) by a deep emotional experience. Perhaps Empathy is to Pity as Justice is to Revenge... most of the Right might think this is splitting hairs, and perhaps they have swayed the Left into the same perspective? Everyone's loss.

- Steve

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 9:07 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

Glen,

I don't think of empathy as something that you gin up; it either happens to you, or it doesn't. And then you decide what you want to do with your empathy. As a child, perhaps,, did you ever read any of Ernest Thompson Seton's (no relative) Lives of the Hunted? The wolf, terror of the Corrumpaw (?), wily killer of sheep, evader of traps, lies before you in a cage, wounded and helpless. You feel empathy. And so you kill it. Anybody who tells you that you should feel empathy lacks empathy for your lack of empathy. I WILL feel empathy for Trump when he's tried. I dread those trials. In fact, even watching him twist and lie and twist and lie, watching him contort, makes me queasy inside, like watching a man tortured. But empathy, like rage, is just another emotion, and needs, like all emotions, to be tempered with reason.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 6:54 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

A collection of people, who shall remain nameless, recently tried to shame me for objecting to their waste of empathy for poor lil ol Trump, in light of his infection. One argument went something like "His father was horrible." One primary argument went something like "empathy begets empathy". Empathy is not zero-sum. Etc.

I started my objection to all this Trump-as-a-victim talk by listing several aspects of his CHARMED LIFE, like the fact that he's lucky enough to have lived to a ripe old age (when so many of us die young), he was born wealthy (when so many of us live our entire lives dirt poor), his stupid TV show was wildly successful (when so many of us are serial failures), his weaponized litigousness has benefited him throughout his life (when so many of us can't even afford a lawyer). Etc.

All that *privilege* has been bestowed upon him. And it seems, to me, he's squandered it all. He reminds me of those pitiful pictures of Saddam Hussein in court and then prison and then dead. Oh boo-hoo, poor little dictator being mistreated. Such sentiments are not merely weird to me. If game theory and the success of simplistic tit-for-tat has taught us anything, it is that the algorithmic *depth* required to beat straightforward (poetic) "justice" is academically interesting, but pragmatically degenerate.

So, no. I will not waste any of my finite lifetime feeling sorry for poor lil ol Trump, our Privilege Squanderer in Chief. If that magically limits my ability to empathize in some other context, so be it. If it implies that when I die pathetically, under some bridge, eating partial hamburgers from the Wendy's dumpster, my colleagues *rightly* avoid wasting their finite lifetimes feeling sorry for me, then I'm ready for that day. Like it or not, tu quoque is a fallacy.

--

↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

jon zingale

Re: Trump as a victim

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

"Trump seems to have nothing in his portfolio but a string of ghastly public
failures where *he* slips out from under the crumbling building just in time
to go on to slap a fat T on another one and start dismantling it from the
foundation up like a hungry termite."

Animals are an approximate solution to the simultaneous problems of
a given environment, and for us humans, the social component of that
environment weighs in heavily. It is clear that our politics selects
for an ever more distilled charisma in whatever form solves those
simultaneous problems. I am not sure how we can begin to imagine that
constraining the office of the president further, along the lines of
charisma-centric contests, will give rise to a more compassionate,
contemplative, and competent solution to the kinds of problems the
office actually poses. We exactly select individuals unfit for the
position we expect them to serve and ultimately we will suffer and they
will suffer if we do not take responsibility, learn from this apparent
flaw, and modify the process of selection accordingly. We run the risk
of only treating symptoms. The president, as with any office, operates
in a social context and it is clear that he has been enabled along his
entire catastrophic trajectory. Enabled by his citizen supporters, his
party, the "opposition", everyone. If any fool and I mean a classic
fool, were to find themselves propped up in his position and enabled to
carry out this tragic drama, I would feel the same way. I dislike it
when I see exploitations of this kind at even smaller levels. When
friends of mine with Down's syndrome are exploited by the neighborhood
bully, it makes me angry and I feel empathy. Surprisingly, not just
for my friend, but also for the bully. I don't know why, though
probably something most similar to how Nick put it above. Empathy is
something I feel and justify feeling later.

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Trump as a victim

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Frank writes:

Steve writes:

< I believe that suppressing one's pity/sympathy/empathy/compassion entirely is the "reactive" mode... I suspect our friend Donald started down that path at a very young age and has only the barest echoes or ghosts of those feelings remaining. I knew too many "western men" as a child who seemed to have done the same with their relationship to nature and animals... being brutal with predators/varmints leading to a certain brutality to prey (game animals) to their own working stock (cattle, sheep, rabbits, horses, dogs) and then ultimately their families (wives, children) and could-have-been friends. They were not devoid of this, but there was something about the lifestyle and circumstance (and social context) that seemed to strongly encourage, if not require, that suppression of empathy. >

I grew up on a farm and was not taught to think much of anything about animals. We had a cow that had a grown calf that was in the neighboring field (fenced off) that was being bred. The mother saw it and became agitated. She took a run at a good wire fence and managed to punch a hole in it. It was an amazing display of strength. I suppose I might think of a young Trumper as a sort of raccoon. Superficially looks ok, but don’t try to feed it. It will rip your hand off. At some point, for our own sanity, we will have confront how we have treated animals (and how we may likely treat AIs) or at least why we treat some differently than others. I’d say if there is some kind of communication that can occur (verbal or non-verbal) that entity has higher status than those than cannot engage in communication. As baby Donald would mostly just poop and cry, he wouldn’t necessarily get very high on that priority list.

Marcus

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Trump as a victim

You see either a pooper and crier or someone adorable

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KpmCLdxcqNqCLfn2A

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 10:59 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank writes:



Steve writes:

< I believe that suppressing one's pity/sympathy/empathy/compassion entirely is the "reactive" mode... I suspect our friend Donald started down that path at a very young age and has only the barest echoes or ghosts of those feelings remaining. I knew too many "western men" as a child who seemed to have done the same with their relationship to nature and animals... being brutal with predators/varmints leading to a certain brutality to prey (game animals) to their own working stock (cattle, sheep, rabbits, horses, dogs) and then ultimately their families (wives, children) and could-have-been friends. They were not devoid of this, but there was something about the lifestyle and circumstance (and social context) that seemed to strongly encourage, if not require, that suppression of empathy. >

I grew up on a farm and was not taught to think much of anything about animals. We had a cow that had a grown calf that was in the neighboring field (fenced off) that was being bred. The mother saw it and became agitated. She took a run at a good wire fence and managed to punch a hole in it. It was an amazing display of strength. I suppose I might think of a young Trumper as a sort of raccoon. Superficially looks ok, but don’t try to feed it. It will rip your hand off. At some point, for our own sanity, we will have confront how we have treated animals (and how we may likely treat AIs) or at least why we treat some differently than others. I’d say if there is some kind of communication that can occur (verbal or non-verbal) that entity has higher status than those than cannot engage in communication. As baby Donald would mostly just poop and cry, he wouldn’t necessarily get very high on that priority list.

Marcus

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Trump as a victim

Try again:

You either see a pooper and crier or someone adorable or both.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JaXtpLd9H2gjjj3x5

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 11:07 AM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

You see either a pooper and crier or someone adorable

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KpmCLdxcqNqCLfn2A

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 10:59 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank writes:



Steve writes:

< I believe that suppressing one's pity/sympathy/empathy/compassion entirely is the "reactive" mode... I suspect our friend Donald started down that path at a very young age and has only the barest echoes or ghosts of those feelings remaining. I knew too many "western men" as a child who seemed to have done the same with their relationship to nature and animals... being brutal with predators/varmints leading to a certain brutality to prey (game animals) to their own working stock (cattle, sheep, rabbits, horses, dogs) and then ultimately their families (wives, children) and could-have-been friends. They were not devoid of this, but there was something about the lifestyle and circumstance (and social context) that seemed to strongly encourage, if not require, that suppression of empathy. >

I grew up on a farm and was not taught to think much of anything about animals. We had a cow that had a grown calf that was in the neighboring field (fenced off) that was being bred. The mother saw it and became agitated. She took a run at a good wire fence and managed to punch a hole in it. It was an amazing display of strength. I suppose I might think of a young Trumper as a sort of raccoon. Superficially looks ok, but don’t try to feed it. It will rip your hand off. At some point, for our own sanity, we will have confront how we have treated animals (and how we may likely treat AIs) or at least why we treat some differently than others. I’d say if there is some kind of communication that can occur (verbal or non-verbal) that entity has higher status than those than cannot engage in communication. As baby Donald would mostly just poop and cry, he wouldn’t necessarily get very high on that priority list.

Marcus

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Trump as a victim

It seemed a rookie mistake for a logician!

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 10:16 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

Try again:

You either see a pooper and crier or someone adorable or both.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JaXtpLd9H2gjjj3x5

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 11:07 AM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

You see either a pooper and crier or someone adorable

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KpmCLdxcqNqCLfn2A

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 10:59 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank writes:



Steve writes:

< I believe that suppressing one's pity/sympathy/empathy/compassion entirely is the "reactive" mode... I suspect our friend Donald started down that path at a very young age and has only the barest echoes or ghosts of those feelings remaining. I knew too many "western men" as a child who seemed to have done the same with their relationship to nature and animals... being brutal with predators/varmints leading to a certain brutality to prey (game animals) to their own working stock (cattle, sheep, rabbits, horses, dogs) and then ultimately their families (wives, children) and could-have-been friends. They were not devoid of this, but there was something about the lifestyle and circumstance (and social context) that seemed to strongly encourage, if not require, that suppression of empathy. >

I grew up on a farm and was not taught to think much of anything about animals. We had a cow that had a grown calf that was in the neighboring field (fenced off) that was being bred. The mother saw it and became agitated. She took a run at a good wire fence and managed to punch a hole in it. It was an amazing display of strength. I suppose I might think of a young Trumper as a sort of raccoon. Superficially looks ok, but don’t try to feed it. It will rip your hand off. At some point, for our own sanity, we will have confront how we have treated animals (and how we may likely treat AIs) or at least why we treat some differently than others. I’d say if there is some kind of communication that can occur (verbal or non-verbal) that entity has higher status than those than cannot engage in communication. As baby Donald would mostly just poop and cry, he wouldn’t necessarily get very high on that priority list.

Marcus

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Trump as a victim

Guilty

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 11:19 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

It seemed a rookie mistake for a logician!

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 10:16 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

Try again:

You either see a pooper and crier or someone adorable or both.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/JaXtpLd9H2gjjj3x5

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 11:07 AM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

You see either a pooper and crier or someone adorable

https://photos.app.goo.gl/KpmCLdxcqNqCLfn2A

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 10:59 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank writes:



Steve writes:

< I believe that suppressing one's pity/sympathy/empathy/compassion entirely is the "reactive" mode... I suspect our friend Donald started down that path at a very young age and has only the barest echoes or ghosts of those feelings remaining. I knew too many "western men" as a child who seemed to have done the same with their relationship to nature and animals... being brutal with predators/varmints leading to a certain brutality to prey (game animals) to their own working stock (cattle, sheep, rabbits, horses, dogs) and then ultimately their families (wives, children) and could-have-been friends. They were not devoid of this, but there was something about the lifestyle and circumstance (and social context) that seemed to strongly encourage, if not require, that suppression of empathy. >

I grew up on a farm and was not taught to think much of anything about animals. We had a cow that had a grown calf that was in the neighboring field (fenced off) that was being bred. The mother saw it and became agitated. She took a run at a good wire fence and managed to punch a hole in it. It was an amazing display of strength. I suppose I might think of a young Trumper as a sort of raccoon. Superficially looks ok, but don’t try to feed it. It will rip your hand off. At some point, for our own sanity, we will have confront how we have treated animals (and how we may likely treat AIs) or at least why we treat some differently than others. I’d say if there is some kind of communication that can occur (verbal or non-verbal) that entity has higher status than those than cannot engage in communication. As baby Donald would mostly just poop and cry, he wouldn’t necessarily get very high on that priority list.

Marcus

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

David Eric Smith

Re: Trump as a victim

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

On Oct 7, 2020, at 12:58 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

I’d say if there is some kind of communication that can occur (verbal or non-verbal) that entity has higher status than those than cannot engage in communication.

There ia a fun example of this from ethnography, which I used to open a talk at the ABQ museum of natural history many years ago, to introduce the diorama that the NM Highlands Media Arts kids had created for Origin of Life.

I will get all the diacritics wrong below, but indulge me. The motif was self/other distinctions, and how they have come from human habit also to put unwarranted priors of separation into science.

This is from the Ju/`hoansi of S. Africa and Namibia. Their name for themselves is also the generic term for humans. They have another word, /!xon, for wild and dangerous things. Interesting thing is, what makes something a kind of /!xon is that you can’t understand its language. Thus there are both 4-legged and 2-legged /!xon, with the Bantu herders and farmers who flooded into the region 800 years ago, as well as the Afrikaners, being the 2-legged kind. In that set, the Ju/`hoansi rank the 4-legged /!xon a little higher than the 2-legged kind, saying of the 4-leggers “we can at least understand their language a little”.

I believe that and other such stories come from here:

https://www.amazon.com/Dobe-Hoansi-STUDIES-CULTURAL-ANTHROPOLOGY/dp/1111828776

I have a particular empathy with that story.

Eric

thompnickson2

Re: Trump as a victim

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

“shaped”, steve. It was shaped. You know what “shaped” means. Nobody knows what “informed” means, in that usage.

And if you ever use “incredibly” to mean “very” or “incredible” to mean good, I will come after you with pitchforks. Somebody said on a podcast that the NYTimes had some incredible reporters. In an age in which credibility is the central issue of our time, we do not want to fudge its meaning.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 10:34 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

Marcus Daniels wrote:

Once one practices modulating a class of these feelings it changes how or even if one experiences them. Having empathy can just be another form of being reactive which is not a good way for adults to be IMO. It is equally reactive to be enraged every time Trump or Trumpers are on TV. They dehumanized themselves.

- Steve

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 9:07 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

Glen,

I don't think of empathy as something that you gin up; it either happens to you, or it doesn't. And then you decide what you want to do with your empathy. As a child, perhaps,, did you ever read any of Ernest Thompson Seton's (no relative) Lives of the Hunted? The wolf, terror of the Corrumpaw (?), wily killer of sheep, evader of traps, lies before you in a cage, wounded and helpless. You feel empathy. And so you kill it. Anybody who tells you that you should feel empathy lacks empathy for your lack of empathy. I WILL feel empathy for Trump when he's tried. I dread those trials. In fact, even watching him twist and lie and twist and lie, watching him contort, makes me queasy inside, like watching a man tortured. But empathy, like rage, is just another emotion, and needs, like all emotions, to be tempered with reason.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 6:54 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

A collection of people, who shall remain nameless, recently tried to shame me for objecting to their waste of empathy for poor lil ol Trump, in light of his infection. One argument went something like "His father was horrible." One primary argument went something like "empathy begets empathy". Empathy is not zero-sum. Etc.

I started my objection to all this Trump-as-a-victim talk by listing several aspects of his CHARMED LIFE, like the fact that he's lucky enough to have lived to a ripe old age (when so many of us die young), he was born wealthy (when so many of us live our entire lives dirt poor), his stupid TV show was wildly successful (when so many of us are serial failures), his weaponized litigousness has benefited him throughout his life (when so many of us can't even afford a lawyer). Etc.

All that *privilege* has been bestowed upon him. And it seems, to me, he's squandered it all. He reminds me of those pitiful pictures of Saddam Hussein in court and then prison and then dead. Oh boo-hoo, poor little dictator being mistreated. Such sentiments are not merely weird to me. If game theory and the success of simplistic tit-for-tat has taught us anything, it is that the algorithmic *depth* required to beat straightforward (poetic) "justice" is academically interesting, but pragmatically degenerate.

So, no. I will not waste any of my finite lifetime feeling sorry for poor lil ol Trump, our Privilege Squanderer in Chief. If that magically limits my ability to empathize in some other context, so be it. If it implies that when I die pathetically, under some bridge, eating partial hamburgers from the Wendy's dumpster, my colleagues *rightly* avoid wasting their finite lifetimes feeling sorry for me, then I'm ready for that day. Like it or not, tu quoque is a fallacy.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

jon zingale

Re: Trump as a victim

In reply to this post by jon zingale

Perhaps, to further flip this on its head, consider Trump's role on "The
Apprentice". Here we find a man conditioned to play the role of a top
executive on television. Believing that this means he is capable of
competently navigating the top executive role for our nation is like
selecting your doctor based on how well they play the role of a doctor on
television. Arguably, we see this in the inability of a real doctor, Sean
Conley, to play a politically savvy doctor on the evening news. On the other
hand, Conley himself may not be a competent doctor as he appears to fail to
grasp the spirit of the Hippocratic Oath. His medical advice appears to
follow from the whims of his patient. Further, the overtly political display
may fail to "First, do no harm" when it comes to setting a precedence for
the American people at large.

Meanwhile, Trump continues to act out of his "scope of practice", by
continuing to give medical advice to the nation. As the Washingon Post puts
it, "Trump's not a doctor. He's only playing one on TV"[☤].

[☤]
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/23/trumps-not-doctor-hes-only-playing-one-tv/

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Jochen Fromm-5

Re: Trump as a victim

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

I started to feel sorry for Donald when I saw him gasping for air on the balcony of the White House. We are all just humans, and he really seems to be a Covid19 victim. As Barack Obama said let us hope that the President and all those affected by the Coronavirus are getting the care they need and feel better soon.

But shortly after the old Donald was back, and to me it looks like he has not learned much. No signs of remorse for his behavior, no pity for Covid19 victims and no apology for the people he has infected in the last days. Instead we can see rage tweeting in uppercase (is his Caps Lock Key broken now?) in increasing intensity and frequency.

How do you see it?

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>

Date: 10/7/20 18:29 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

I feel empathy and sympathy for the little baby Donald before the remote mother and the overweening father made their imprint on him.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 9:38 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Empathy requires attention and time, and anyone else is a better use of it. Quoting from Utopia, "What you have you done today to earn your place in this big crowded world of ours?"

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 5:54 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

A collection of people, who shall remain nameless, recently tried to shame me for objecting to their waste of empathy for poor lil ol Trump, in light of his infection. One argument went something like "His father was horrible." One primary argument went something like "empathy begets empathy". Empathy is not zero-sum. Etc.

I started my objection to all this Trump-as-a-victim talk by listing several aspects of his CHARMED LIFE, like the fact that he's lucky enough to have lived to a ripe old age (when so many of us die young), he was born wealthy (when so many of us live our entire lives dirt poor), his stupid TV show was wildly successful (when so many of us are serial failures), his weaponized litigousness has benefited him throughout his life (when so many of us can't even afford a lawyer). Etc.

All that *privilege* has been bestowed upon him. And it seems, to me, he's squandered it all. He reminds me of those pitiful pictures of Saddam Hussein in court and then prison and then dead. Oh boo-hoo, poor little dictator being mistreated. Such sentiments are not merely weird to me. If game theory and the success of simplistic tit-for-tat has taught us anything, it is that the algorithmic *depth* required to beat straightforward (poetic) "justice" is academically interesting, but pragmatically degenerate.

So, no. I will not waste any of my finite lifetime feeling sorry for poor lil ol Trump, our Privilege Squanderer in Chief. If that magically limits my ability to empathize in some other context, so be it. If it implies that when I die pathetically, under some bridge, eating partial hamburgers from the Wendy's dumpster, my colleagues *rightly* avoid wasting their finite lifetimes feeling sorry for me, then I'm ready for that day. Like it or not, tu quoque is a fallacy.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Trump as a victim

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

I have observed the results of high dosage steroids. That crazy drive around could have been an induced mania. In a normal situation, one might discuss having the vice president step in. It really seemed redundant since he is only differently-crazy the rest of the time. I only had a technical interest in the White House performance, hoping for a stumble or a burst blood vessel, etc.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 11:54 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

How do you see it?

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>

Date: 10/7/20 18:29 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

I feel empathy and sympathy for the little baby Donald before the remote mother and the overweening father made their imprint on him.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 9:38 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Empathy requires attention and time, and anyone else is a better use of it. Quoting from Utopia, "What you have you done today to earn your place in this big crowded world of ours?"

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 5:54 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

A collection of people, who shall remain nameless, recently tried to shame me for objecting to their waste of empathy for poor lil ol Trump, in light of his infection. One argument went something like "His father was horrible." One primary argument went something like "empathy begets empathy". Empathy is not zero-sum. Etc.

I started my objection to all this Trump-as-a-victim talk by listing several aspects of his CHARMED LIFE, like the fact that he's lucky enough to have lived to a ripe old age (when so many of us die young), he was born wealthy (when so many of us live our entire lives dirt poor), his stupid TV show was wildly successful (when so many of us are serial failures), his weaponized litigousness has benefited him throughout his life (when so many of us can't even afford a lawyer). Etc.

All that *privilege* has been bestowed upon him. And it seems, to me, he's squandered it all. He reminds me of those pitiful pictures of Saddam Hussein in court and then prison and then dead. Oh boo-hoo, poor little dictator being mistreated. Such sentiments are not merely weird to me. If game theory and the success of simplistic tit-for-tat has taught us anything, it is that the algorithmic *depth* required to beat straightforward (poetic) "justice" is academically interesting, but pragmatically degenerate.

So, no. I will not waste any of my finite lifetime feeling sorry for poor lil ol Trump, our Privilege Squanderer in Chief. If that magically limits my ability to empathize in some other context, so be it. If it implies that when I die pathetically, under some bridge, eating partial hamburgers from the Wendy's dumpster, my colleagues *rightly* avoid wasting their finite lifetimes feeling sorry for me, then I'm ready for that day. Like it or not, tu quoque is a fallacy.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Roger Frye-4

Re: Trump as a victim

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

My stumbling block is Stephen Miller. After some effort, I could muster up Buddhist compassion for Trump and wish that he be healthy, strong and happy. But I chastised myself for wishing Stephen Miller would get it when I saw a picture of him walking next to Hope Hicks. Then when I heard that he has it too, I couldn't help smiling.

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 12:54 PM Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

I started to feel sorry for Donald when I saw him gasping for air on the balcony of the White House. We are all just humans, and he really seems to be a Covid19 victim. As Barack Obama said let us hope that the President and all those affected by the Coronavirus are getting the care they need and feel better soon.

But shortly after the old Donald was back, and to me it looks like he has not learned much. No signs of remorse for his behavior, no pity for Covid19 victims and no apology for the people he has infected in the last days. Instead we can see rage tweeting in uppercase (is his Caps Lock Key broken now?) in increasing intensity and frequency.

How do you see it?

-J.

-------- Original message --------
From: Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Date: 10/7/20 18:29 (GMT+01:00)
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

I feel empathy and sympathy for the little baby Donald before the remote mother and the overweening father made their imprint on him.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 9:38 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
Empathy requires attention and time, and anyone else is a better use of it. Quoting from Utopia, "What you have you done today to earn your place in this big crowded world of ours?"

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 5:54 AM
To: FriAM <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Trump as a victim

A collection of people, who shall remain nameless, recently tried to shame me for objecting to their waste of empathy for poor lil ol Trump, in light of his infection. One argument went something like "His father was horrible." One primary argument went something like "empathy begets empathy". Empathy is not zero-sum. Etc.

I started my objection to all this Trump-as-a-victim talk by listing several aspects of his CHARMED LIFE, like the fact that he's lucky enough to have lived to a ripe old age (when so many of us die young), he was born wealthy (when so many of us live our entire lives dirt poor), his stupid TV show was wildly successful (when so many of us are serial failures), his weaponized litigousness has benefited him throughout his life (when so many of us can't even afford a lawyer). Etc.

All that *privilege* has been bestowed upon him. And it seems, to me, he's squandered it all. He reminds me of those pitiful pictures of Saddam Hussein in court and then prison and then dead. Oh boo-hoo, poor little dictator being mistreated. Such sentiments are not merely weird to me. If game theory and the success of simplistic tit-for-tat has taught us anything, it is that the algorithmic *depth* required to beat straightforward (poetic) "justice" is academically interesting, but pragmatically degenerate.

So, no. I will not waste any of my finite lifetime feeling sorry for poor lil ol Trump, our Privilege Squanderer in Chief. If that magically limits my ability to empathize in some other context, so be it. If it implies that when I die pathetically, under some bridge, eating partial hamburgers from the Wendy's dumpster, my colleagues *rightly* avoid wasting their finite lifetimes feeling sorry for me, then I'm ready for that day. Like it or not, tu quoque is a fallacy.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/