Re: The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems
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Re: The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems
 
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All, or any,
In the emergence literature that I am reading, one of the positions is that a system is emergent, if, and only if, the only way to "compute it" is with an ABM. n Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > [Original Message] > From: John Kennison <[hidden email]> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Date: 4/28/2009 3:43:03 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems > > Thanks Robert for your reply > > I want to move on to the question of where math is effective. Previously, I wondered about the existence of domains where short logical implications were reliable but long chains of logical implications may start to be ineffective. In a sense this is true of any chaotic system, such as weather. We can now predict weather fairly well for the short term but not for the long term because we cannot measure the initial conditions to the required degree of precision (as even arbitrarily small changes now can cause big changes in future states). It is posible that weather is mathematically determined, say perfectly described by some chaotic system and yet math itself would be only of limited use in predicting weather? > > Perhaps Physics has (so far, mainly) only analyzed non-chaotic phenomena. > > This raises the question of whether some other mathematical system, say one not involving numbers, could tell us somethging useful about chaotic phenomena. Maybe the use of ABMs would work, as suggested by Jochen. > ________________________________________ > From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm [[hidden email]] > Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 2:27 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: [FRIAM] The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in Complex Systems > > If physics is so successfully described by mathematics > because the physical world is mathematical, and nearly > isomorphic to a mathematical structure, then maybe > complex systems are so successfully described by ABMs > because their are isomorphic to them, too. Complex systems, > especially social ones, are "agent-oriented". > What do you think ? > > -J. > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems
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Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> In the emergence literature that I am reading, one of the positions is that > a system is emergent, if, and only if, the only way to "compute it" is with > an ABM. That's too vague to warrant comment... [grin] other than to say it's too vague to warrant comment. -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
I wish the hell some you smart folks were reading this book with me:
Bedau and Humphreys, EMERGENCE. MIT 2008. Does anybody know a good philosopher or two with time on their hands? N Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > [Original Message] > From: glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Date: 4/28/2009 4:02:48 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems > > Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > In the emergence literature that I am reading, one of the positions is that > > a system is emergent, if, and only if, the only way to "compute it" is with > > an ABM. > > That's too vague to warrant comment... [grin] other than to say it's too > vague to warrant comment. > > -- > glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems
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Administrator
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On Apr 28, 2009, at 8:31 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> I wish the hell some you smart folks were reading this book with me: > > Bedau and Humphreys, EMERGENCE. MIT 2008. > > Does anybody know a good philosopher or two with time on their hands? Just out of curiosity: why a philosopher? Why not a scientist/ mathematician? The book looked interesting when you brought it to Friam. -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Fair question, Tom
(1) Because I already have scientists around me to talk to, but no philosophers (2) The texts I am struggling most with are written by philosophers. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > [Original Message] > From: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> > To: <[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Date: 4/28/2009 8:51:22 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems > > On Apr 28, 2009, at 8:31 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > I wish the hell some you smart folks were reading this book with me: > > > > Bedau and Humphreys, EMERGENCE. MIT 2008. > > > > Does anybody know a good philosopher or two with time on their hands? > > Just out of curiosity: why a philosopher? Why not a scientist/ > mathematician? The book looked interesting when you brought it to > Friam. > > -- Owen > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems
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Administrator
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Lose the philosophers.
-- Owen On Apr 28, 2009, at 9:22 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > Fair question, Tom > > (1) Because I already have scientists around me to talk to, but no > philosophers > > (2) The texts I am struggling most with are written by philosophers. > > Nick > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > Clark University ([hidden email]) > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> >> To: <[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied >> Complexity > Coffee Group <[hidden email]> >> Date: 4/28/2009 8:51:22 PM >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in > ComplexSystems >> >> On Apr 28, 2009, at 8:31 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >>> I wish the hell some you smart folks were reading this book with me: >>> >>> Bedau and Humphreys, EMERGENCE. MIT 2008. >>> >>> Does anybody know a good philosopher or two with time on their >>> hands? >> >> Just out of curiosity: why a philosopher? Why not a scientist/ >> mathematician? The book looked interesting when you brought it to >> Friam. >> >> -- Owen >> >> > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Owen;
Now that's just silly. You cant hate philosophers and love mathematicians. It's essentially the same project. N Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > [Original Message] > From: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> > To: <[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Date: 4/28/2009 9:31:40 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems > > Lose the philosophers. > > -- Owen > > > On Apr 28, 2009, at 9:22 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > > > Fair question, Tom > > > > (1) Because I already have scientists around me to talk to, but no > > philosophers > > > > (2) The texts I am struggling most with are written by philosophers. > > > > Nick > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > > Clark University ([hidden email]) > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > > > > > > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> > >> To: <[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied > >> Complexity > > Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > >> Date: 4/28/2009 8:51:22 PM > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in > > ComplexSystems > >> > >> On Apr 28, 2009, at 8:31 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > >>> I wish the hell some you smart folks were reading this book with me: > >>> > >>> Bedau and Humphreys, EMERGENCE. MIT 2008. > >>> > >>> Does anybody know a good philosopher or two with time on their > >>> hands? > >> > >> Just out of curiosity: why a philosopher? Why not a scientist/ > >> mathematician? The book looked interesting when you brought it to > >> Friam. > >> > >> -- Owen > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
Owen Densmore wrote:
>> >> >> Does anybody know a good philosopher or two with time on their hands? > > Just out of curiosity: why a philosopher? Why not a > scientist/mathematician? The book looked interesting when you brought > it to Friam. > > -- Owen I'd recommend a Scientist with good Mathematical skills who also understands the broader context of Science and Mathematics which probably makes them something of a Philosopher as well. There are plenty of Philosophers who would not have much to offer here, but possibly as many Scientists and Mathematicians as well. - Steve PS. re: Bedau and Humphreys, EMERGENCE. MIT 2008. - I'd be reading it myself I weren't so busy reading (and writing) all these e-mails! ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
I am talking about real live philosophers, right here in santa fe.
Anybody know any? N Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > [Original Message] > From: Steve Smith <[hidden email]> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Date: 4/28/2009 9:59:16 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems > > Owen Densmore wrote: > >> > >> > >> Does anybody know a good philosopher or two with time on their hands? > > > > Just out of curiosity: why a philosopher? Why not a > > scientist/mathematician? The book looked interesting when you brought > > it to Friam. > > > > -- Owen > I'd recommend a Scientist with good Mathematical skills who also > understands the broader context of Science and Mathematics which > probably makes them something of a Philosopher as well. > > There are plenty of Philosophers who would not have much to offer here, > but possibly as many Scientists and Mathematicians as well. > > - Steve > > PS. re: Bedau and Humphreys, EMERGENCE. MIT 2008. - I'd be reading it > myself I weren't so busy reading (and writing) all these e-mails! > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 08:31:49PM -0600, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> I wish the hell some you smart folks were reading this book with me: > > Bedau and Humphreys, EMERGENCE. MIT 2008. > > Does anybody know a good philosopher or two with time on their hands? > > N > Mark Bedau sometimes comes to Santa Fe. Maybe you could convince him to come to a Friam meeting? Not sure about the time on his hands bit - he always strikes me as being quite busy... -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Mathematics UNSW SYDNEY 2052 [hidden email] Australia http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Reuben Hersh, [hidden email],
but you probably think of him as a mathematician. On Apr 28, 2009, at 10:15 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > I am talking about real live philosophers, right here in santa fe. > > Anybody know any? > > N > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, > Clark University ([hidden email]) > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > >> [Original Message] >> From: Steve Smith <[hidden email]> >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email] >> > >> Date: 4/28/2009 9:59:16 PM >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in > ComplexSystems >> >> Owen Densmore wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Does anybody know a good philosopher or two with time on their >>>> hands? >>> >>> Just out of curiosity: why a philosopher? Why not a >>> scientist/mathematician? The book looked interesting when you >>> brought >>> it to Friam. >>> >>> -- Owen >> I'd recommend a Scientist with good Mathematical skills who also >> understands the broader context of Science and Mathematics which >> probably makes them something of a Philosopher as well. >> >> There are plenty of Philosophers who would not have much to offer >> here, >> but possibly as many Scientists and Mathematicians as well. >> >> - Steve >> >> PS. re: Bedau and Humphreys, EMERGENCE. MIT 2008. - I'd be >> reading it >> myself I weren't so busy reading (and writing) all these e-mails! >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org Roger Frye, 505-670-8840 Qforma, Inc. (formerly CommodiCast) INNOVATE, NAVIGATE, SURPASS Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail transmission may contain confidential or legally privileged information that is intended only for the individual or entity named in the e-mail address. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or reliance upon the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please reply to the sender, so that Qforma can arrange for proper delivery, and then please delete the message from your inbox. Thank you. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
On Apr 28, 2009, at 8:51 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
> On Apr 28, 2009, at 8:31 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: >> I wish the hell some you smart folks were reading this book with me: >> >> Bedau and Humphreys, EMERGENCE. MIT 2008. >> >> Does anybody know a good philosopher or two with time on their hands? > > Just out of curiosity: why a philosopher? Why not a scientist/ > mathematician? The book looked interesting when you brought it to > Friam. Why not all of the above (scientist, mathematician, and philosopher)? From one point of view philosophers are students of perception. A 20th century example would be Edmund Husserl and a decent/recent book mentioning both might be David Abram's "Spell of the Sensuous". I think the world owes a lot to Plato, Aristotle, René Descartes and a few others. Regardless of whether one agrees with their works, the consideration thereof has influenced various disciplines for 2,500 years or so. Is the study of the perceptions that motivate groups political science, systems theory, psychology or philosophy? Or, is it all or none of the above? I don't know; in lieu of an answer I'd say all aforementioned disciplines are valid methods of approaching the questions...to the extent that they inform. It seems to me (and I am more or less publicly saying it's my guess because I really don't know) that what little systems theory stuff I've read suggests that if you really want to change a system, since systems (involving humans) are created and run by people, that the way to do it most effectively and potently is to change people's perceptions around the system, of the system, etc. Most of what we have created existed as thoughts or beliefs in individual or collective minds before manifestation (architect dreams up house, draws house, builds house). I don't think science is the problem...but I think a problem is my (our) perception and the belief's arising therefrom, whether we are talking anthropogenic environmental problems or any number of other issues we face individually and collectively. If the political movements that have altered human history stem from individually held and mass-held philosophies and the material practices they engender, then I think perhaps philosophy is a bit more impactful/relevant than one might think, or am I mistaken? (whether we are discussing the formerly widely-held view that the Earth was flat, the 5th century (B.C.) origins of democracy, or totalitarian and/or fascistic movements). Is political science not in part the study of political philosophy? I guess some of my questions are, is philosophy irrelevant because it may be viewed by some as less desirable than other disciplines or are the subjects and perceptions mentioned matters of political science/ psychology and not philosophy? Or, are these disciplines anachronisms that should yield to the application of methods of complex systems analysis or other academic/scientific disciplines? (I don't know the answer to that question and am interested in the answer). What are the most effective and constructive ways to influence group perception and group dynamics/behaviors? Cognitive Neuroscience? Economics? Marketing? Is the most successful way to influence the power-brokers at the Governor's Task Force on the College of Santa Fe a successful marketing of a desired philosophy aimed at producing a given outcome? Or, is it a matter of demonstrating the economic benefit behind the continued presence of higher education in Santa Fe? -Nick ---------------------------------------- Nicholas S. Frost 7 Avenida Vista Grande #325 Santa Fe, NM 87508 [hidden email] ---------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: The unreasonable Effectiveness of ABMs in ComplexSystems
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Just my two cents-ontology, epistemology and emergence are certainly
not mutually exclusive at all: www.cognitive-edge.com --Russ On Apr 28, 2009, at 10:58 PM, Steve Smith wrote: > Owen Densmore wrote: >>> >>> >>> Does anybody know a good philosopher or two with time on their >>> hands? >> >> Just out of curiosity: why a philosopher? Why not a scientist/ >> mathematician? The book looked interesting when you brought it to >> Friam. >> >> -- Owen > I'd recommend a Scientist with good Mathematical skills who also > understands the broader context of Science and Mathematics which > probably makes them something of a Philosopher as well. > > There are plenty of Philosophers who would not have much to offer > here, but possibly as many Scientists and Mathematicians as well. > > - Steve > > PS. re: Bedau and Humphreys, EMERGENCE. MIT 2008. - I'd be reading > it myself I weren't so busy reading (and writing) all these e-mails! > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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