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Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

> What language could I write a script in (no graphics, simply text in, text out) that would run on all the computers used by Friam folks?

Javascript!

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Owen Densmore

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

Administrator

On Dec 27, 2008, at 4:04 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:
>
>> What language could I write a script in (no graphics, simply text
>> in, text out) that would run on all the computers used by Friam
>> folks?
>
> Javascript!

Well, it is certainly lurking on all of our systems that have a
browser, that's for sure! But if I just send folks a javascript file,
how are they to execute it, and how are they to specify stdin/out?

I really am serious here: I'd like to know which scripting language
and runtime is reasonably likely to be on our systems. Its pretty
grim if there's not a reasonable answer!

The specific stunt I'm looking at takes a text file in, and converts
it to morse code. Also the reverse, take in morse code and translate
it to ascii. Dead simple and kinda fun. But to share it with others,
I'd like a script that could work on most systems.

-- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Russ Abbott

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

JavaScript sure seems like a simple solution. Here's a primitive version of one possibility.

<html>
<head>
<script>
function transform(input) {
output.value = "transformed version of:\n" + input;
}
</script>
</head>
<body>
Copy the text to be translated into this text area and press "Go". <br />
<textarea id = "input" cols = 100></textarea>
<input type=button value="Go" onclick="transform(document.getElementById('input').value);" />
<br />
<textarea id = "output" cols = 100></textarea>
</body>
</html>

-- Russ

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 5:59 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Dec 27, 2008, at 4:04 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:

What language could I write a script in (no graphics, simply text in, text out) that would run on all the computers used by Friam folks?

Javascript!

Well, it is certainly lurking on all of our systems that have a browser, that's for sure! But if I just send folks a javascript file, how are they to execute it, and how are they to specify stdin/out?

I really am serious here: I'd like to know which scripting language and runtime is reasonably likely to be on our systems. Its pretty grim if there's not a reasonable answer!

The specific stunt I'm looking at takes a text file in, and converts it to morse code. Also the reverse, take in morse code and translate it to ascii. Dead simple and kinda fun. But to share it with others, I'd like a script that could work on most systems.

-- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Owen Densmore

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

Administrator

I *like* it! Probably the most universal, and can even be run
locally. Possibly even as a bookmarklet. And luckily for all of us,
the DOM standards let javascript access user input in a fairly elegant
way.

BUT: the pipe paradigm of unix shells allows you to have the input be
a file and the output to be piped into a file or another program. Our
browser approach only lets us use literal text in and out. No big
deal, but I wonder if there's a hack to get directly at the javascript
language within the browser, and to use it like a command line command.

I think, however, your answer is likely the winner.

-- Owen

On Dec 27, 2008, at 8:01 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:

> JavaScript sure seems like a simple solution. Here's a primitive
> version of
> one possibility.
>
> <html>
> <head>
> <script>
> function transform(input) {
> output.value = "transformed version of:\n" + input;
> }
> </script>
> </head>
> <body>
> Copy the text to be translated into this text area and press "Go".
> <br />
> <textarea id = "input" cols = 100></textarea>
> <input type=button value="Go"
> onclick="transform(document.getElementById('input').value);" />
> <br />
> <textarea id = "output" cols = 100></textarea>
> </body>
> </html>
>
> -- Russ
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 5:59 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> On Dec 27, 2008, at 4:04 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> What language could I write a script in (no graphics, simply text
>>> in,
>>>> text out) that would run on all the computers used by Friam folks?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Javascript!
>>>
>>
>> Well, it is certainly lurking on all of our systems that have a
>> browser,
>> that's for sure! But if I just send folks a javascript file, how
>> are they
>> to execute it, and how are they to specify stdin/out?
>>
>> I really am serious here: I'd like to know which scripting language
>> and
>> runtime is reasonably likely to be on our systems. Its pretty grim
>> if
>> there's not a reasonable answer!
>>
>> The specific stunt I'm looking at takes a text file in, and
>> converts it to
>> morse code. Also the reverse, take in morse code and translate it
>> to ascii.
>> Dead simple and kinda fun. But to share it with others, I'd like a
>> script
>> that could work on most systems.
>>
>> -- Owen
>>
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Russ Abbott

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

Before sending that script I looked for a way for JavaScript to access the local file system. I couldn't find one. Sorry. But that doesn't mean there isn't one.

-- Russ

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

I *like* it! Probably the most universal, and can even be run locally. Possibly even as a bookmarklet. And luckily for all of us, the DOM standards let javascript access user input in a fairly elegant way.

BUT: the pipe paradigm of unix shells allows you to have the input be a file and the output to be piped into a file or another program. Our browser approach only lets us use literal text in and out. No big deal, but I wonder if there's a hack to get directly at the javascript language within the browser, and to use it like a command line command.

I think, however, your answer is likely the winner.

-- Owen

On Dec 27, 2008, at 8:01 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:

JavaScript sure seems like a simple solution. Here's a primitive version of
one possibility.

<html>
<head>
<script>
function transform(input) {
output.value = "transformed version of:\n" + input;
}
</script>
</head>
<body>
Copy the text to be translated into this text area and press "Go". <br />
<textarea id = "input" cols = 100></textarea>
<input type=button value="Go"
onclick="transform(document.getElementById('input').value);" />
<br />
<textarea id = "output" cols = 100></textarea>
</body>
</html>

-- Russ

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 5:59 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Dec 27, 2008, at 4:04 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:

What language could I write a script in (no graphics, simply text in,

text out) that would run on all the computers used by Friam folks?

Javascript!

Well, it is certainly lurking on all of our systems that have a browser,
that's for sure! But if I just send folks a javascript file, how are they
to execute it, and how are they to specify stdin/out?

I really am serious here: I'd like to know which scripting language and
runtime is reasonably likely to be on our systems. Its pretty grim if
there's not a reasonable answer!

The specific stunt I'm looking at takes a text file in, and converts it to
morse code. Also the reverse, take in morse code and translate it to ascii.
Dead simple and kinda fun. But to share it with others, I'd like a script
that could work on most systems.

-- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Russ Abbott

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

An interesting feature of this thread is that at first I thought you were after "the best" scripting language or something like that. When I finally understood that what you wanted really was the most widely accessible scripting language, the question took on a completely different meaning. It changed from being a discussion of scripting languages as such to the more practical question of how to distribute some functionality as widely and effortlessly as possible.

-- Russ

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

Before sending that script I looked for a way for JavaScript to access the local file system. I couldn't find one. Sorry. But that doesn't mean there isn't one.

-- Russ

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
I *like* it! Probably the most universal, and can even be run locally. Possibly even as a bookmarklet. And luckily for all of us, the DOM standards let javascript access user input in a fairly elegant way.

BUT: the pipe paradigm of unix shells allows you to have the input be a file and the output to be piped into a file or another program. Our browser approach only lets us use literal text in and out. No big deal, but I wonder if there's a hack to get directly at the javascript language within the browser, and to use it like a command line command.

I think, however, your answer is likely the winner.

-- Owen

On Dec 27, 2008, at 8:01 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:

JavaScript sure seems like a simple solution. Here's a primitive version of
one possibility.

<html>
<head>
<script>
function transform(input) {
output.value = "transformed version of:\n" + input;
}
</script>
</head>
<body>
Copy the text to be translated into this text area and press "Go". <br />
<textarea id = "input" cols = 100></textarea>
<input type=button value="Go"
onclick="transform(document.getElementById('input').value);" />
<br />
<textarea id = "output" cols = 100></textarea>
</body>
</html>

-- Russ

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 5:59 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Dec 27, 2008, at 4:04 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:

What language could I write a script in (no graphics, simply text in,

text out) that would run on all the computers used by Friam folks?

Javascript!

Well, it is certainly lurking on all of our systems that have a browser,
that's for sure! But if I just send folks a javascript file, how are they
to execute it, and how are they to specify stdin/out?

I really am serious here: I'd like to know which scripting language and
runtime is reasonably likely to be on our systems. Its pretty grim if
there's not a reasonable answer!

The specific stunt I'm looking at takes a text file in, and converts it to
morse code. Also the reverse, take in morse code and translate it to ascii.
Dead simple and kinda fun. But to share it with others, I'd like a script
that could work on most systems.

-- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

Owen Densmore wrote:
> BUT: the pipe paradigm of unix shells allows you to have the input be
> a file and the output to be piped into a file or another program.
The browser can be used as a hierarchical blackboard (the DOM) between a
producer and a consumer while JavaScript 1.7's `yield' can switch back
and forth between threads of control (like a pipe). Further, http and
xml can be used to read and write objects in favor of flat files.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en/New_in_JavaScript_1.7
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMLHttpRequest

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

There is still the issue of Javascript implementation portability. You can't count on each vendor adhering to standards. If you are lucky, the code that you want to implement will run on all browsers. Worst case, you will have to sniff the OS & browser and branch accordingly. It is a lot more work, which is why you still see sites advertising "IE Explorer only". Like my company, for example. The time entry system breaks with Firefox, only works with IE. Once the maintainers of that system realized this, they put browser sniffers in which would warn the user that only IE would work. At least they didn't put in blocking code.

--Doug

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

An interesting feature of this thread is that at first I thought you were after "the best" scripting language or something like that. When I finally understood that what you wanted really was the most widely accessible scripting language, the question took on a completely different meaning. It changed from being a discussion of scripting languages as such to the more practical question of how to distribute some functionality as widely and effortlessly as possible.

-- Russ

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 8:04 PM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

Before sending that script I looked for a way for JavaScript to access the local file system. I couldn't find one. Sorry. But that doesn't mean there isn't one.

-- Russ

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
I *like* it! Probably the most universal, and can even be run locally. Possibly even as a bookmarklet. And luckily for all of us, the DOM standards let javascript access user input in a fairly elegant way.

BUT: the pipe paradigm of unix shells allows you to have the input be a file and the output to be piped into a file or another program. Our browser approach only lets us use literal text in and out. No big deal, but I wonder if there's a hack to get directly at the javascript language within the browser, and to use it like a command line command.

I think, however, your answer is likely the winner.

-- Owen

On Dec 27, 2008, at 8:01 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:

JavaScript sure seems like a simple solution. Here's a primitive version of
one possibility.

<html>
<head>
<script>
function transform(input) {
output.value = "transformed version of:\n" + input;
}
</script>
</head>
<body>
Copy the text to be translated into this text area and press "Go". <br />
<textarea id = "input" cols = 100></textarea>
<input type=button value="Go"
onclick="transform(document.getElementById('input').value);" />
<br />
<textarea id = "output" cols = 100></textarea>
</body>
</html>

-- Russ

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 5:59 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Dec 27, 2008, at 4:04 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:

What language could I write a script in (no graphics, simply text in,

text out) that would run on all the computers used by Friam folks?

Javascript!

Well, it is certainly lurking on all of our systems that have a browser,
that's for sure! But if I just send folks a javascript file, how are they
to execute it, and how are they to specify stdin/out?

I really am serious here: I'd like to know which scripting language and
runtime is reasonably likely to be on our systems. Its pretty grim if
there's not a reasonable answer!

The specific stunt I'm looking at takes a text file in, and converts it to
morse code. Also the reverse, take in morse code and translate it to ascii.
Dead simple and kinda fun. But to share it with others, I'd like a script
that could work on most systems.

-- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Owen Densmore

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

Administrator

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Russ, Marcus: Thanks for yet another push for me hussle javascript a
bit more.

This is a good reminder as to why javascript is so cool:
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/A_re-introduction_to_JavaScript

I found a great book as well: "Javascript, the Good Parts" .. here's
video from the author:
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/630959/2974197
He's great at leading us beyond the pitfalls of js.

-- Owen

On Dec 27, 2008, at 9:20 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:

> Owen Densmore wrote:
>> BUT: the pipe paradigm of unix shells allows you to have the input
>> be a file and the output to be piped into a file or another program.
> The browser can be used as a hierarchical blackboard (the DOM)
> between a producer and a consumer while JavaScript 1.7's `yield' can
> switch back and forth between threads of control (like a pipe).
> Further, http and xml can be used to read and write objects in favor
> of flat files.
>
> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/New_in_JavaScript_1.7
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMLHttpRequest
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

James Steiner

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

I'll pitch in:

I have (but don't necessarily use):

DOS 7 (with default command line enhancements it's actually useful)
Kixtart
Auto-Hotkey
PHP
NetLogo
Javascript
VB_
Lotus 1-2-3 macro language
Q-Basic

I have actually used netlogo for certain simple text-massaging
problems--not the best, but easy and handy and I don't know perl.

I vote for javascript... it seems that your script is not going to be
doing anything that should bump up against a cross-platform issue...
It's just text input, processing, text-output... what could be
simpler? For any of the tricky (e.g. display, event, css box model)
platform quirty stuff, use a framework like jQuery.

~~James

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Owen Densmore

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

Administrator

On Dec 29, 2008, at 11:03 AM, James Steiner wrote:
> <snip>
> I vote for javascript... it seems that your script is not going to be
> doing anything that should bump up against a cross-platform issue...
> It's just text input, processing, text-output... what could be
> simpler? For any of the tricky (e.g. display, event, css box model)
> platform quirty stuff, use a framework like jQuery.

I'm glad I asked the question. Clearly javascript is the most
ubiquitous script language, although hidden within the browser.

So the browser replaces the command-line! That has the advantage of
coming with a window system as well, which python, perl, ruby, .. lack
unless they use the "J" versions (jython, jruby, ..) which can use
Java's window system and UI toolkits.

I have to say this is a surprise but obvious enough once you really
consider the alternatives.

I'm wondering if this really means we might as well use a hosting
service or cloud system to deliver all our programs at this point. I
mean its nice that you can download Russ's nifty stunt and run it
locally, but would most folks prefer the web hosted solution to start
with? That has the additional advantage that you can use any
scripting language you'd like: Java (Either servlets or applets),
Python, PHP etc .. all on the server.

So from a simple scripting question we arrive at the observation that
your computer is pretty useless for sharing even the simplest
programs, so might as well use the browser, and just as easily, a
hosted solution with all the languages you'd like.

Sneaky!

-- Owen

PS: Steve -- This does prove the deployment problem is real and the
web solution best.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Russ Abbott

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

Great point, Owen. Perhaps we are too old to have thought of that initially. But now that you mention it, posting your app/document/service/code/etc. is almost certainly the way to go. That's where we are all coming to live anyway. Will any future system survive if it isn't web accessible and available from anywhere? Probably not. I rarely attach my papers to messages any more. I post them on a wiki and link to them. So that's the solution. Expect that anyone will be able to access your offering as long as it's web accessible from a standard browser.

-- Russ

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Dec 29, 2008, at 11:03 AM, James Steiner wrote:

<snip>
I vote for javascript... it seems that your script is not going to be
doing anything that should bump up against a cross-platform issue...
It's just text input, processing, text-output... what could be
simpler? For any of the tricky (e.g. display, event, css box model)
platform quirty stuff, use a framework like jQuery.

I'm glad I asked the question. Clearly javascript is the most ubiquitous script language, although hidden within the browser.

So the browser replaces the command-line! That has the advantage of coming with a window system as well, which python, perl, ruby, .. lack unless they use the "J" versions (jython, jruby, ..) which can use Java's window system and UI toolkits.

I have to say this is a surprise but obvious enough once you really consider the alternatives.

I'm wondering if this really means we might as well use a hosting service or cloud system to deliver all our programs at this point. I mean its nice that you can download Russ's nifty stunt and run it locally, but would most folks prefer the web hosted solution to start with? That has the additional advantage that you can use any scripting language you'd like: Java (Either servlets or applets), Python, PHP etc .. all on the server.

So from a simple scripting question we arrive at the observation that your computer is pretty useless for sharing even the simplest programs, so might as well use the browser, and just as easily, a hosted solution with all the languages you'd like.

Sneaky!

-- Owen

PS: Steve -- This does prove the deployment problem is real and the web solution best.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Dale Schumacher

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

When I was facing a similar problem--sharing a platform neutral
program--I also turned to Javascript. In my case, we wanted a lottery
number picker that could be projected from anyone's laptop during a
meeting. I created a single-file HTML/Javascript application
(attached) that could be simply opened from the filesystem in any
browser. Normally I would put the Javascript and CSS is separate
files, but it's all embedded in HTML to make the whole thing
self-contained.

> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Dec 29, 2008, at 11:03 AM, James Steiner wrote:
>>> I vote for javascript... it seems that your script is not going to be
>>> doing anything that should bump up against a cross-platform issue...
>>> It's just text input, processing, text-output... what could be
>>> simpler? For any of the tricky (e.g. display, event, css box model)
>>> platform quirty stuff, use a framework like jQuery.
>>
>> I'm glad I asked the question. Clearly javascript is the most ubiquitous
>> script language, although hidden within the browser.

lottery.html (5K) Download Attachment

Robert J. Cordingley

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

For universal browser implementation one may have to check what DOM is available:

getElementById and others used may not always be available. From a discussion on browser sniffing (bad) and what to do about it at:

http://jibbering.com/faq/faq_notes/not_browser_detect.html#bdFD

Beware of "the assumption that the browser has a fully dynamic DOM with methods such as document.createElement, replaceChild and appendChild. Browsers do not live up to that expectation, some are not that dynamic and while they may implement some of the Core DOM level 1 methods such as getElementById They do not necessarily implement large parts of the various DOM standards, including all of the dynamic Node manipulation methods."

Robert C

-----Original Message-----
From: Dale Schumacher [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 03:44 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

When I was facing a similar problem--sharing a platform neutralprogram--I also turned to Javascript. In my case, we wanted a lotterynumber picker that could be projected from anyone's laptop during ameeting. I created a single-file HTML/Javascript application(attached) that could be simply opened from the filesystem in anybrowser. Normally I would put the Javascript and CSS is separatefiles, but it's all embedded in HTML to make the whole thingself-contained.> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:>> On Dec 29, 2008, at 11:03 AM, James Steiner wrote:>>> I vote for javascript... it seems that your script is not going to be>>> doing anything that should bump up against a cross-platform issue...>>> It's just text input, processing, text-output... what could be>>> simpler? For any of the tricky (e.g. display, event, css box model)>>> platform quirty stuff, use a framework like jQuery.>>>> I'm glad I asked the question. Clearly javascript is the most ubiquitous>> script language, although hidden within the browser.

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

[hidden email] wrote:
> Beware of "the assumption that the browser has a fully dynamic DOM
> with methods such
> as |document.createElement|, |replaceChild| and |appendChild|.
> Browsers do not live up to that expectation, some are not that dynamic
> and while they may implement some of the Core DOM level 1 methods such
> as |getElementById| They do not necessarily implement large parts of
> the various DOM standards, including all of the
> dynamic |Node| manipulation methods."
>
Well, Firefox does, Safari does, and reasonably recent version of IE
do. The only way to force others to repent (or go away quietly) is for
everyone to start using the latest and greatest web standards. Not
talking DOM here, I'm mean SVG, Canvas, video tags, high performance
JavaScript, and the things that can make the web a decent application
platform. If people won't do that, then sooner or later Microsoft .NET
will rule (and in this scenario they probably should).

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Owen Densmore

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

Administrator

[I realize this is a bit OT because we were targeting desktop
scripting, but given the javascript solution, drifting into the "web"
with both client and server side programming, I thought it would be OK
to diverge a bit.]

Well, if the Browser is the Computer, one of the issues I've run into
is multiple languages: one on the server, and another on the browser.
Java was popular because you could use the same language on both
sides: servlets and applets.

But there is yet another javascript rebirth going on: server-side
javascript. John Guerin pointed this out to Steve and me while we
were working with the Google App Engine, and I was kvetching about
having to deal with javascript in the client (google maps, primarily)
and python/django on the server.

Jaxer is the critter that pulls off this magic.
http://www.aptana.com/jaxer
http://ejohn.org/blog/server-side-javascript-with-jaxer/
I've never liked most of the server-side solutions, they were just too
ugly. Php for example was really designed as a "web shell", not a
full featured language (IMHO). But Javascript is a nifty enough
language that having on both sides of the wire is compelling.

And Aptana is another alternative to Google App Engine and Amazon EC2,
and considerably cheaper than the latter.

I haven't used it yet, so would love to hear of other folks'
experience with jaxer and server-side javascript.

-- Owen

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

Owen Densmore wrote:
> Jaxer is the critter that pulls off this magic.
> http://www.aptana.com/jaxer
I see a copy of the Mozilla source tree is in their source
distribution. That worries me a little. How many modifications have
they had to make and maintain? But I think the idea is right on --
the Mozilla framework as an Apache plugin. Just change the `runat'
attribute to say where you want the code to run. Great.

Marcus

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Prof David West

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

if you like javascript - check out http://research.sun.com/lively/

morphic in javascript = flash, ajax, and more - full desktop app
functionality in a Web browser without additional plugins since it is
all available via javascript.

dave west

On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 17:03:54 -0700, "Owen Densmore" <[hidden email]>
said:

> [I realize this is a bit OT because we were targeting desktop
> scripting, but given the javascript solution, drifting into the "web"
> with both client and server side programming, I thought it would be OK
> to diverge a bit.]
>
> Well, if the Browser is the Computer, one of the issues I've run into
> is multiple languages: one on the server, and another on the browser.
> Java was popular because you could use the same language on both
> sides: servlets and applets.
>
> But there is yet another javascript rebirth going on: server-side
> javascript. John Guerin pointed this out to Steve and me while we
> were working with the Google App Engine, and I was kvetching about
> having to deal with javascript in the client (google maps, primarily)
> and python/django on the server.
>
> Jaxer is the critter that pulls off this magic.
> http://www.aptana.com/jaxer
> http://ejohn.org/blog/server-side-javascript-with-jaxer/
> I've never liked most of the server-side solutions, they were just too
> ugly. Php for example was really designed as a "web shell", not a
> full featured language (IMHO). But Javascript is a nifty enough
> language that having on both sides of the wire is compelling.
>
> And Aptana is another alternative to Google App Engine and Amazon EC2,
> and considerably cheaper than the latter.
>
> I haven't used it yet, so would love to hear of other folks'
> experience with jaxer and server-side javascript.
>
> -- Owen
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Russ Abbott

Re: Poll: which scripting languages are available on your computer?

Did you mean http://research.sun.com/projects/lively/ ?

-- Russ

On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

if you like javascript - check out http://research.sun.com/lively/

morphic in javascript = flash, ajax, and more - full desktop app
functionality in a Web browser without additional plugins since it is
all available via javascript.

dave west

On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 17:03:54 -0700, "Owen Densmore" <[hidden email]>
said:
> [I realize this is a bit OT because we were targeting desktop
> scripting, but given the javascript solution, drifting into the "web"
> with both client and server side programming, I thought it would be OK
> to diverge a bit.]
>
> Well, if the Browser is the Computer, one of the issues I've run into
> is multiple languages: one on the server, and another on the browser.
> Java was popular because you could use the same language on both
> sides: servlets and applets.
>
> But there is yet another javascript rebirth going on: server-side
> javascript. John Guerin pointed this out to Steve and me while we
> were working with the Google App Engine, and I was kvetching about
> having to deal with javascript in the client (google maps, primarily)
> and python/django on the server.

>
> Jaxer is the critter that pulls off this magic.
> http://www.aptana.com/jaxer

> http://ejohn.org/blog/server-side-javascript-with-jaxer/
> I've never liked most of the server-side solutions, they were just too
> ugly. Php for example was really designed as a "web shell", not a
> full featured language (IMHO). But Javascript is a nifty enough
> language that having on both sides of the wire is compelling.
>
> And Aptana is another alternative to Google App Engine and Amazon EC2,
> and considerably cheaper than the latter.
>
> I haven't used it yet, so would love to hear of other folks'
> experience with jaxer and server-side javascript.
>
> -- Owen

>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org