Friam

Re: Abducktion

Classic

List

Threaded

42 messages Options

123

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: Abducktion

Despite living in a Spanish speaking country for 12 years, I still struggle mightily with Spanish grammar. This is mainly due to laziness on my part, as well as lack of necessity to immerse myself in the language (there are a lot of English speakers here, not to mention expat groups on Facebook in English). Still, Spanish is *so* much more consistent in all respects than English - pronunciation especially. But the reflexive verbs are still somewhat of a mystery to me. I've wondered exactly the same thing that Frank mentioned: does "the cup fell itself on me" and "the pencil broke itself on mf" represent desire to avoid responsibility? Maybe even blame the victim? Ouch! Your nose nearly broke my fist!

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:06 PM Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Or the equally famous Spanish phrase, "The pencil broke itself." A phrase which you think I would remember.
TJ

============================================
Tom Johnson - [hidden email]
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
============================================

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:55 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
In Spanish if you drop your cup you say, "See me cayó la taza". A literal word--for-word translation is "The cup fell itself on me". Some people say this is an effort to avoid responsibility.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 9:01 AM Barry MacKichan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Very much so. We hired a grad student a long time ago (he stayed with us until he retired). He wrote great Pascal programs. He wrote great Pascal programs in C++, and in JavaScript. The effect of your first programming language on style, idioms, and your feelings about recursion and encapsulation.

—Barry

On 6 Aug 2020, at 23:24, [hidden email] wrote:

Nah. He means more than that. Even ordinary languages predispose users to one kind of discourse or another. I assume that programming languages do the same.

N

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Angel Edward

Re: Abducktion

Isn’t it a consequence of the routine use of the passive voice in Spanish as in “me gusta” instead of “yo gusto?”

The passive voice is pretty much gone in textbooks but I occasionally I get objections from Spanish speakers who claim my textbook can’t be serious because I don’t use the passive voice.

__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Aug 7, 2020, at 4:17 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Despite living in a Spanish speaking country for 12 years, I still struggle mightily with Spanish grammar. This is mainly due to laziness on my part, as well as lack of necessity to immerse myself in the language (there are a lot of English speakers here, not to mention expat groups on Facebook in English). Still, Spanish is *so* much more consistent in all respects than English - pronunciation especially. But the reflexive verbs are still somewhat of a mystery to me. I've wondered exactly the same thing that Frank mentioned: does "the cup fell itself on me" and "the pencil broke itself on mf" represent desire to avoid responsibility? Maybe even blame the victim? Ouch! Your nose nearly broke my fist!

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:06 PM Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Or the equally famous Spanish phrase, "The pencil broke itself." A phrase which you think I would remember.
TJ

============================================
Tom Johnson - [hidden email]
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
============================================

Virus-free. www.avast.com

<a href="x-msg://80/#m_2696335186146636138_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1" height="1" class="">

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:55 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
In Spanish if you drop your cup you say, "See me cayó la taza". A literal word--for-word translation is "The cup fell itself on me". Some people say this is an effort to avoid responsibility.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 9:01 AM Barry MacKichan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Very much so. We hired a grad student a long time ago (he stayed with us until he retired). He wrote great Pascal programs. He wrote great Pascal programs in C++, and in JavaScript. The effect of your first programming language on style, idioms, and your feelings about recursion and encapsulation.
—Barry
On 6 Aug 2020, at 23:24, [hidden email] wrote:

Nah. He means more than that. Even ordinary languages predispose users to one kind of discourse or another. I assume that programming languages do the same.

N

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: Abducktion

I'm no grammar expert, even in my native English, but I don't believe "me gusta el cafe" is using passive voice. It literally says "coffee pleases me". Comments, Frank? But then, I may be confused about what passive voice is.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:23 PM Angel Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:

Isn’t it a consequence of the routine use of the passive voice in Spanish as in “me gusta” instead of “yo gusto?”

The passive voice is pretty much gone in textbooks but I occasionally I get objections from Spanish speakers who claim my textbook can’t be serious because I don’t use the passive voice.

Ed

__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Aug 7, 2020, at 4:17 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Despite living in a Spanish speaking country for 12 years, I still struggle mightily with Spanish grammar. This is mainly due to laziness on my part, as well as lack of necessity to immerse myself in the language (there are a lot of English speakers here, not to mention expat groups on Facebook in English). Still, Spanish is *so* much more consistent in all respects than English - pronunciation especially. But the reflexive verbs are still somewhat of a mystery to me. I've wondered exactly the same thing that Frank mentioned: does "the cup fell itself on me" and "the pencil broke itself on mf" represent desire to avoid responsibility? Maybe even blame the victim? Ouch! Your nose nearly broke my fist!

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:06 PM Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Or the equally famous Spanish phrase, "The pencil broke itself." A phrase which you think I would remember.
TJ

============================================
Tom Johnson - [hidden email]
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
============================================

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:55 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
In Spanish if you drop your cup you say, "See me cayó la taza". A literal word--for-word translation is "The cup fell itself on me". Some people say this is an effort to avoid responsibility.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 9:01 AM Barry MacKichan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Very much so. We hired a grad student a long time ago (he stayed with us until he retired). He wrote great Pascal programs. He wrote great Pascal programs in C++, and in JavaScript. The effect of your first programming language on style, idioms, and your feelings about recursion and encapsulation.
—Barry
On 6 Aug 2020, at 23:24, [hidden email] wrote:

Nah. He means more than that. Even ordinary languages predispose users to one kind of discourse or another. I assume that programming languages do the same.

N

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Edward Angel

Re: Abducktion

Literally it says “it pleases me” which is the passive voice leading to the question who is “it?"

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon

Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Aug 7, 2020, at 4:30 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm no grammar expert, even in my native English, but I don't believe "me gusta el cafe" is using passive voice. It literally says "coffee pleases me". Comments, Frank? But then, I may be confused about what passive voice is.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:23 PM Angel Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:
Isn’t it a consequence of the routine use of the passive voice in Spanish as in “me gusta” instead of “yo gusto?”

The passive voice is pretty much gone in textbooks but I occasionally I get objections from Spanish speakers who claim my textbook can’t be serious because I don’t use the passive voice.

Ed

__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Aug 7, 2020, at 4:17 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Despite living in a Spanish speaking country for 12 years, I still struggle mightily with Spanish grammar. This is mainly due to laziness on my part, as well as lack of necessity to immerse myself in the language (there are a lot of English speakers here, not to mention expat groups on Facebook in English). Still, Spanish is *so* much more consistent in all respects than English - pronunciation especially. But the reflexive verbs are still somewhat of a mystery to me. I've wondered exactly the same thing that Frank mentioned: does "the cup fell itself on me" and "the pencil broke itself on mf" represent desire to avoid responsibility? Maybe even blame the victim? Ouch! Your nose nearly broke my fist!

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:06 PM Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Or the equally famous Spanish phrase, "The pencil broke itself." A phrase which you think I would remember.
TJ

============================================
Tom Johnson - [hidden email]
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
============================================

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:55 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
In Spanish if you drop your cup you say, "See me cayó la taza". A literal word--for-word translation is "The cup fell itself on me". Some people say this is an effort to avoid responsibility.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 9:01 AM Barry MacKichan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Very much so. We hired a grad student a long time ago (he stayed with us until he retired). He wrote great Pascal programs. He wrote great Pascal programs in C++, and in JavaScript. The effect of your first programming language on style, idioms, and your feelings about recursion and encapsulation.
—Barry
On 6 Aug 2020, at 23:24, [hidden email] wrote:

Nah. He means more than that. Even ordinary languages predispose users to one kind of discourse or another. I assume that programming languages do the same.

N

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

Re: Abducktion

In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4

I grew up with street Spanish (arroyo?) as a second language. 2/3 of my peers were descendants of Spanish (by then Mexico) settlers from the Socorro area who moved to the upper Gila watershed (San Francisco/Tularosa river confluence) whose grandparents may well have spoken no English, in spite of living 300 miles from the border of MX. The Anglos in the area who were multi-generational also spoke their own unique version of Spanglish with those grandparents in response. I later (age 12) moved to the border of MX where once again, 2/3 of my peers had Spanish surnames and grandparents that were likely *born* when that area was still part of MX (Gadsden Purchase). I found myself in a Spanish class halfway through the 6th grade with absolutely NO formal language training, but a broad (if hacky) vocabulary and a practical sense of the grammar, gender and conjugation but no clue what a language class was supposed to be about... it was fascinating but confounding!

My sister, two years older than me, growing up in the same context, managed to be almost entirely without Spanish when at 24 she moved to Spain (and later Chile). The difference, I have judged, is that she was a better student than I and whatever failures she encountered in formal Spanish Class dominated her experience of the language while I simply muddled my B-student way through Spanish class while speaking street/arroyo Spanish comfortably the whole time.

What is being described here is really he subject-object ambiguity/conflation which I find really cool/inspiring. Similarly, the Germanic habit of not giving one a sense of the *sense* of a statement until the end of the the sentence. Two sentences can be structured (almost) identically excepting that one is ended with the sense "nicht!" so that the listener has to wait for the whole sentence to complete to make a judgement. I am not very proficient in German, but while reading it, it seems so easy to scan (with peripheral vision) forward to notice the (lack of) "nicht!" at the end. To those (Jochen?) who are much more familiar with German, I may be bastardizing the whole concept, but that has been my working experience with the little bit of German I've tried to read/listen-to.

The subject-object ambiguity is a *feature* in Bohm's Rheomode... with the idea (IMO) of trying to lower the level of intentionality/willfulness/precedence.

What is being referred to as "avoiding responsibility" (possibly a judgement applied by northern/cold cultures applied against southern/warm cultures?) may also be about holding a larger perspective? I remember a step-son figure who disappeared during a home-tour who said when we finally found him in the backyard "the dog made me play with him!" which on the surface seemed to be "avoiding responsibility" but in fact was pretty close to the fact.

Similarly, I recently introduced Mary to archery (for many reasons) and I chose to give her carbon-fiber arrows, to avoid the circumstance of having "the arrow break itself in the bow" which always turns out badly for the archer.

Since the theme of this bent-thread has been "how does language effect our thinking/expression", first in the context of programming languages, but now in the context of natural languages. I was trained in the idea of Universal Computation, as well as Chomsky's Universal Grammar, but I think this audience is sophisticated enough to recognize that the simple fact that one *can* (in principle) translate any (natural language) statement or (computer) program into any other is not the same as to consider how easy/facile these are for the purpose.

When I worked as Private Investigator I was fascinated to realize that law libraries, by their intrinsic nature grew unboundedly with legal precedent. I also noted that (almost?) without exception a multilingual user or assembly manual is *shortest* in the language it was written in, and all translations are less parsimonious.

ramble,

- Steve

Despite living in a Spanish speaking country for 12 years, I still struggle mightily with Spanish grammar. This is mainly due to laziness on my part, as well as lack of necessity to immerse myself in the language (there are a lot of English speakers here, not to mention expat groups on Facebook in English). Still, Spanish is *so* much more consistent in all respects than English - pronunciation especially. But the reflexive verbs are still somewhat of a mystery to me. I've wondered exactly the same thing that Frank mentioned: does "the cup fell itself on me" and "the pencil broke itself on mf" represent desire to avoid responsibility? Maybe even blame the victim? Ouch! Your nose nearly broke my fist!

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:06 PM Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Or the equally famous Spanish phrase, "The pencil broke itself." A phrase which you think I would remember.
TJ

============================================
Tom Johnson - [hidden email]
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data

============================================

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:55 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

In Spanish if you drop your cup you say, "See me cayó la taza". A literal word--for-word translation is "The cup fell itself on me". Some people say this is an effort to avoid responsibility.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 9:01 AM Barry MacKichan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Very much so. We hired a grad student a long time ago (he stayed with us until he retired). He wrote great Pascal programs. He wrote great Pascal programs in C++, and in JavaScript. The effect of your first programming language on style, idioms, and your feelings about recursion and encapsulation.

—Barry

On 6 Aug 2020, at 23:24, [hidden email] wrote:

Nah. He means more than that. Even ordinary languages predispose users to one kind of discourse or another. I assume that programming languages do the same.

N

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 

thompnickson2

Re: Abducktion

In reply to this post by Edward Angel

Impersonal.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Edward Angel
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 4:43 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abducktion

Literally it says “it pleases me” which is the passive voice leading to the question who is “it?"

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon

Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Aug 7, 2020, at 4:30 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm no grammar expert, even in my native English, but I don't believe "me gusta el cafe" is using passive voice. It literally says "coffee pleases me". Comments, Frank? But then, I may be confused about what passive voice is.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:23 PM Angel Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:
Isn’t it a consequence of the routine use of the passive voice in Spanish as in “me gusta” instead of “yo gusto?”

The passive voice is pretty much gone in textbooks but I occasionally I get objections from Spanish speakers who claim my textbook can’t be serious because I don’t use the passive voice.

Ed
__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Aug 7, 2020, at 4:17 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Despite living in a Spanish speaking country for 12 years, I still struggle mightily with Spanish grammar. This is mainly due to laziness on my part, as well as lack of necessity to immerse myself in the language (there are a lot of English speakers here, not to mention expat groups on Facebook in English). Still, Spanish is *so* much more consistent in all respects than English - pronunciation especially. But the reflexive verbs are still somewhat of a mystery to me. I've wondered exactly the same thing that Frank mentioned: does "the cup fell itself on me" and "the pencil broke itself on mf" represent desire to avoid responsibility? Maybe even blame the victim? Ouch! Your nose nearly broke my fist!

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:06 PM Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Or the equally famous Spanish phrase, "The pencil broke itself." A phrase which you think I would remember.
TJ

============================================
Tom Johnson - [hidden email]
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
============================================

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:55 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
In Spanish if you drop your cup you say, "See me cayó la taza". A literal word--for-word translation is "The cup fell itself on me". Some people say this is an effort to avoid responsibility.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 9:01 AM Barry MacKichan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Very much so. We hired a grad student a long time ago (he stayed with us until he retired). He wrote great Pascal programs. He wrote great Pascal programs in C++, and in JavaScript. The effect of your first programming language on style, idioms, and your feelings about recursion and encapsulation.
—Barry
On 6 Aug 2020, at 23:24, [hidden email] wrote:
Nah. He means more than that. Even ordinary languages predispose users to one kind of discourse or another. I assume that programming languages do the same.

N
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Stephen Guerin-5

Re: Abducktion

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 8:54 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Forgive me, but can you spell that out a bit? How does working in a
particular programming Language shape an approach to the problem.

As an example of FRIAM thread spelunking, here's a 2005 entry from the late great Mike Agar on programming languages and the Whorfian Hypothesis - a principle claiming that the structure of a language affects its speakers' world view or cognition, and thus people's perceptions are relative to their spoken language. (Wikipedia):

Ray's topic suggestions are good ones. Steve and I talked some about
another angle, applying the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis from ling anthro (that
language and habitual patterns of thought co-evolve) to "speakers" of
different computer languages and seeing how that plays out in project
teams.

I don't know this territory as well as I should, given my new life as a
planet in the FRIAM orbit, but from colleagues' stories way back when
I'm pretty sure the human/machine interface emphasis came out of the
pioneering use of ethnographers at Xerox PARC together with the infuence
of Latour's theories that technology must also be viewed as an actor in
a situation. John Seely Brown, the PARC-man who made this happen, tells
some of the stories in his book the Social Life of Information,
co-authored with Paul Duguid.

Mike

http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ethnography-and-information-systems-td519925.html

thompnickson2

Re: Abducktion

Thanks, jon, for digging up this old thread. We are really, really good! We should write a book some day. I encourage you all to go back to the beginning of this thread, which began the first year I was reading Peirce, I think. I particularly was moved by re-reading Owen’s contribution about Duck-typing. I don’t think I quite saw its significance at the time. Hey, Owen: How come we don’t hear more from you???

Thanks again, you-all, for what you do.

nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Stephen Guerin
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 8:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abducktion

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 8:54 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Forgive me, but can you spell that out a bit? How does working in a
particular programming Language shape an approach to the problem.

Ray's topic suggestions are good ones. Steve and I talked some about
another angle, applying the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis from ling anthro (that
language and habitual patterns of thought co-evolve) to "speakers" of
different computer languages and seeing how that plays out in project
teams.

I don't know this territory as well as I should, given my new life as a
planet in the FRIAM orbit, but from colleagues' stories way back when
I'm pretty sure the human/machine interface emphasis came out of the
pioneering use of ethnographers at Xerox PARC together with the infuence
of Latour's theories that technology must also be viewed as an actor in
a situation. John Seely Brown, the PARC-man who made this happen, tells
some of the stories in his book the Social Life of Information,
co-authored with Paul Duguid.

Mike

http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ethnography-and-information-systems-td519925.html

thompnickson2

Re: Abducktion

Sorry. The thread in question is at http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/Re-Abducktion-td7582900.html

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, August 8, 2020 11:30 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Abducktion

Thanks again, you-all, for what you do.

nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 8:54 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Forgive me, but can you spell that out a bit? How does working in a
particular programming Language shape an approach to the problem.

Ray's topic suggestions are good ones. Steve and I talked some about
another angle, applying the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis from ling anthro (that
language and habitual patterns of thought co-evolve) to "speakers" of
different computer languages and seeing how that plays out in project
teams.

I don't know this territory as well as I should, given my new life as a
planet in the FRIAM orbit, but from colleagues' stories way back when
I'm pretty sure the human/machine interface emphasis came out of the
pioneering use of ethnographers at Xerox PARC together with the infuence
of Latour's theories that technology must also be viewed as an actor in
a situation. John Seely Brown, the PARC-man who made this happen, tells
some of the stories in his book the Social Life of Information,
co-authored with Paul Duguid.

Mike

http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ethnography-and-information-systems-td519925.html

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Abducktion

In reply to this post by Edward Angel

It's usually obvious from.the context who/what "it" is. People do say "yo gusto" but like "yo te gusto?" Do you like me? And sometimes to be cute "tu gustas?" which is incorrect. These examples are not passive voice. "Se gusta?" meaning "is it liked?" is passive voice. Any disagreements will be referred to my daughter, the Spanish teacher.

An improvement on my earlier comment "se me cayó la taza" would be "the cup was fallen on me" which is also passive voice and also makes responsibility ambiguous.

Every time I write "passive", Android mail client auto-completes it as "passive aggressive".

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 4:43 PM Edward Angel <[hidden email]> wrote:

Literally it says “it pleases me” which is the passive voice leading to the question who is “it?"

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Aug 7, 2020, at 4:30 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm no grammar expert, even in my native English, but I don't believe "me gusta el cafe" is using passive voice. It literally says "coffee pleases me". Comments, Frank? But then, I may be confused about what passive voice is.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:23 PM Angel Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:
Isn’t it a consequence of the routine use of the passive voice in Spanish as in “me gusta” instead of “yo gusto?”

The passive voice is pretty much gone in textbooks but I occasionally I get objections from Spanish speakers who claim my textbook can’t be serious because I don’t use the passive voice.

Ed

__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Aug 7, 2020, at 4:17 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Despite living in a Spanish speaking country for 12 years, I still struggle mightily with Spanish grammar. This is mainly due to laziness on my part, as well as lack of necessity to immerse myself in the language (there are a lot of English speakers here, not to mention expat groups on Facebook in English). Still, Spanish is *so* much more consistent in all respects than English - pronunciation especially. But the reflexive verbs are still somewhat of a mystery to me. I've wondered exactly the same thing that Frank mentioned: does "the cup fell itself on me" and "the pencil broke itself on mf" represent desire to avoid responsibility? Maybe even blame the victim? Ouch! Your nose nearly broke my fist!

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:06 PM Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Or the equally famous Spanish phrase, "The pencil broke itself." A phrase which you think I would remember.
TJ

============================================
Tom Johnson - [hidden email]
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
============================================

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:55 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
In Spanish if you drop your cup you say, "See me cayó la taza". A literal word--for-word translation is "The cup fell itself on me". Some people say this is an effort to avoid responsibility.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 9:01 AM Barry MacKichan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Very much so. We hired a grad student a long time ago (he stayed with us until he retired). He wrote great Pascal programs. He wrote great Pascal programs in C++, and in JavaScript. The effect of your first programming language on style, idioms, and your feelings about recursion and encapsulation.
—Barry
On 6 Aug 2020, at 23:24, [hidden email] wrote:

Nah. He means more than that. Even ordinary languages predispose users to one kind of discourse or another. I assume that programming languages do the same.

N

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: Abducktion

Frank,

Please ask that language-teaching daughter of yours if “impersonal” is a “voice”. The French adore impersonals. “Il me faut que” = I must” “Qu-est-ce que c’est que” = “What is it” (literally “What is it that it is” I suspect that part of why Americans are thought to be so assertive is that we use impersonals less? Polite writers often try to obfuscate the agent of an action, making prose inpenetrable. “It would appear that” (Appear to whom? For God’s) sake!) And my favorite, “Mistakes were made”

In my never-to-be written book, Who Was This Old White Guy and Why Do We Need to Read His Stupid Book? (About the current implications of Strunk and White’s “Elements of Style”, I want to explore the degree to which there are any universal dictates of clarity that go beyond cultural dictates of deference or politeness. White would say that “Mistakes Were Made” is unclear; to understand what happened we need to know the agent of those mistakes. A defender of that obfuscation might call it a “gentle style”. Using “they” as a gender=neutral singular deprives a writer of one of the methods by which to thread agent and recipient of action in in describing a complex scenario. Other priorities trump clarity? Why not? Some times clarity isn’t faithful to a writer’s purpose.

Yet to me there is some fundamental violation, a logical contradiction, in speaking unclearly. If one is not going to communicate a meaning unambiguously, why speak at all. Ach! There is a reason that 80 years is a normal lifetime.

Some day somebody is going to make a heluva lot money by writing a book entitled “Brown and White: Elements of Woke Style.” It could be YOU! Or your daughter, for that matter.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2020 7:47 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abducktion

An improvement on my earlier comment "se me cayó la taza" would be "the cup was fallen on me" which is also passive voice and also makes responsibility ambiguous.

Every time I write "passive", Android mail client auto-completes it as "passive aggressive".

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 4:43 PM Edward Angel <[hidden email]> wrote:

Literally it says “it pleases me” which is the passive voice leading to the question who is “it?"
_______________________

Ed Angel
Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Aug 7, 2020, at 4:30 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm no grammar expert, even in my native English, but I don't believe "me gusta el cafe" is using passive voice. It literally says "coffee pleases me". Comments, Frank? But then, I may be confused about what passive voice is.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:23 PM Angel Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:
Isn’t it a consequence of the routine use of the passive voice in Spanish as in “me gusta” instead of “yo gusto?”

The passive voice is pretty much gone in textbooks but I occasionally I get objections from Spanish speakers who claim my textbook can’t be serious because I don’t use the passive voice.

Ed
__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Aug 7, 2020, at 4:17 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Despite living in a Spanish speaking country for 12 years, I still struggle mightily with Spanish grammar. This is mainly due to laziness on my part, as well as lack of necessity to immerse myself in the language (there are a lot of English speakers here, not to mention expat groups on Facebook in English). Still, Spanish is *so* much more consistent in all respects than English - pronunciation especially. But the reflexive verbs are still somewhat of a mystery to me. I've wondered exactly the same thing that Frank mentioned: does "the cup fell itself on me" and "the pencil broke itself on mf" represent desire to avoid responsibility? Maybe even blame the victim? Ouch! Your nose nearly broke my fist!

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:06 PM Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Or the equally famous Spanish phrase, "The pencil broke itself." A phrase which you think I would remember.
TJ

============================================
Tom Johnson - [hidden email]
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
============================================

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:55 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
In Spanish if you drop your cup you say, "See me cayó la taza". A literal word--for-word translation is "The cup fell itself on me". Some people say this is an effort to avoid responsibility.

Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 9:01 AM Barry MacKichan <[hidden email]> wrote:
Very much so. We hired a grad student a long time ago (he stayed with us until he retired). He wrote great Pascal programs. He wrote great Pascal programs in C++, and in JavaScript. The effect of your first programming language on style, idioms, and your feelings about recursion and encapsulation.
—Barry
On 6 Aug 2020, at 23:24, [hidden email] wrote:
Nah. He means more than that. Even ordinary languages predispose users to one kind of discourse or another. I assume that programming languages do the same.

N
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

jon zingale

Re: Abducktion

This post was updated on .

Yes, but who will write the definitive style guide for *sabir*[†], the
_man_ able to do what the British did for the Ramayana!

[†] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_Franca

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Abducktion

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Those French! They have a word for everything! Apologies to Steve Martin. I think, as your translations demonstrate, English also has impersonal constructions. But I think we use them less. They're probably correct that we're excessively assertive. And we know what they think of Germans.

"Mistakes were made" is simply the passive voice and, like in Spanish, introduces ambiguity.

In my opinion.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 10:21 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Frank,

Please ask that language-teaching daughter of yours if “impersonal” is a “voice”.

jon zingale

Re: Abducktion

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

... and what about the connections between a revolutionary function of
vulgarity[⁕], and dissent from legitimized grammar and style?

[⁕]
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2016/05/the-necessity-of-political-vulgarity

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

jon zingale

Re: Abducktion

... and just for additional fun, Glen recently posted this video of Stephen
Pinker on style:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV5J6BfToSw&feature=youtu.be&t=1455

The link above is queued to the moment where Strunk and White recommend
(while using the passive voice) avoiding the passive voice.

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: Abducktion

G and J,

OK. I will stipulate that Pinker has a point if you will stipulate that
Pinker is a smug jerk. Pinker does seem to be reaching for general
principles of good style, as opposed to rules of thumb. I should try to get
over the hair and listen to what he says.

N

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:00 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abducktion

... and just for additional fun, Glen recently posted this video of Stephen
Pinker on style:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV5J6BfToSw&feature=youtu.be&t=1455

The link above is queued to the moment where Strunk and White recommend
(while using the passive voice) avoiding the passive voice.

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Abducktion

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Agreed!

No sé nada aquí. No swimming here, right?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 12:34 PM Diane McCorkle <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree with you, Dad, but have never seen “se gusta.”

Gustar is a verb with an implicit direct object: el gusto. Gustar=dar gusto.

It could be like other intransitive verbs that can be made passive with “se”: no se nada aquí.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 9:47 AM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
It's usually obvious from.the context who/what "it" is. People do say "yo gusto" but like "yo te gusto?" Do you like me? And sometimes to be cute "tu gustas?" which is incorrect. These examples are not passive voice. "Se gusta?" meaning "is it liked?" is passive voice. Any disagreements will be referred to my daughter, the Spanish teacher.

An improvement on my earlier comment "se me cayó la taza" would be "the cup was fallen on me" which is also passive voice and also makes responsibility ambiguous.

Every time I write "passive", Android mail client auto-completes it as "passive aggressive".

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 4:43 PM Edward Angel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Literally it says “it pleases me” which is the passive voice leading to the question who is “it?"

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Aug 7, 2020, at 4:30 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm no grammar expert, even in my native English, but I don't believe "me gusta el cafe" is using passive voice. It literally says "coffee pleases me". Comments, Frank? But then, I may be confused about what passive voice is.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 5:23 PM Angel Edward <[hidden email]> wrote:
Isn’t it a consequence of the routine use of the passive voice in Spanish as in “me gusta” instead of “yo gusto?”

The passive voice is pretty much gone in textbooks but I occasionally I get objections from Spanish speakers who claim my textbook can’t be serious because I don’t use the passive voice.

Ed

__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Aug 7, 2020, at 4:17 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Despite living in a Spanish speaking country for 12 years, I still struggle mightily with Spanish grammar. This is mainly due to laziness on my part, as well as lack of necessity to immerse myself in the language (there are a lot of English speakers here, not to mention expat groups on Facebook in English). Still, Spanish is *so* much more consistent in all respects than English - pronunciation especially. But the reflexive verbs are still somewhat of a mystery to me. I've wondered exactly the same thing that Frank mentioned: does "the cup fell itself on me" and "the pencil broke itself on mf" represent desire to avoid responsibility? Maybe even blame the victim? Ouch! Your nose nearly broke my fist!

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 2:06 PM Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Or the equally famous Spanish phrase, "The pencil broke itself." A phrase which you think I would remember.
TJ

============================================
Tom Johnson - [hidden email]
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
============================================

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:55 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
In Spanish if you drop your cup you say, "See me cayó la taza". A literal word--for-word translation is "The cup fell itself on me". Some people say this is an effort to avoid responsibility.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 9:01 AM Barry MacKichan <[hidden email]> wrote:

Very much so. We hired a grad student a long time ago (he stayed with us until he retired). He wrote great Pascal programs. He wrote great Pascal programs in C++, and in JavaScript. The effect of your first programming language on style, idioms, and your feelings about recursion and encapsulation.
—Barry
On 6 Aug 2020, at 23:24, [hidden email] wrote:

Nah. He means more than that. Even ordinary languages predispose users to one kind of discourse or another. I assume that programming languages do the same.

N

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

jon zingale

Re: Abducktion

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Agreed! Pinker is a smug jerk.

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: Abducktion

Jon,

You know, in the end, I watched the whole Pinker talk. And it was good, and pertinent. It seemed to be a Pragmatic[ist] take on style: we begin in the middle and we don't walk too fast. Or, in other words, "Have mercy on your reader!" I confess it's a hard lesson to learn. Even tho it took me 7 weeks to learn what Glen meant by "Steel Man"^fn, I am tempted to use the term around people who may not have quite figured it out yet. It makes me feel like I am a member of the Glen-Club.

Even if the talk was delivered by a badly groomed cocker spaniel in a Lord Fauntleroy jacket.

Nick

FN =To steelman an argument is to put it in it’s best possible form BEFORE beginning to evaluate it. Back formation from “strawman”.

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:53 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abducktion

Agreed! Pinker is a smug jerk.

Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Abducktion

Sheesh, Nick. Since when do you judge speakers by their appearance?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020, 1:09 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jon,

You know, in the end, I watched the whole Pinker talk. And it was good, and pertinent. It seemed to be a Pragmatic[ist] take on style: we begin in the middle and we don't walk too fast. Or, in other words, "Have mercy on your reader!" I confess it's a hard lesson to learn. Even tho it took me 7 weeks to learn what Glen meant by "Steel Man"^fn, I am tempted to use the term around people who may not have quite figured it out yet. It makes me feel like I am a member of the Glen-Club.

Even if the talk was delivered by a badly groomed cocker spaniel in a Lord Fauntleroy jacket.

Nick

FN =To steelman an argument is to put it in it’s best possible form BEFORE beginning to evaluate it. Back formation from “strawman”.

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Sunday, August 9, 2020 12:53 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abducktion

Agreed! Pinker is a smug jerk.

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

123