Python Propaganda
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I particularly liked the quote "scientists favor Python because
it reduces their dependency on professional programmers and gives them more control over their own projects". Yeah right :-P Actually, I worked with Python for a while, and saw just how much easier it is to write spagetti code with it than it is with more disciplined languages. How about a snippet of code that executes a Python script from a file, which returns the name of a method to call on an object? Oh, and by the way, the method is dynamically added to the object as a side effect of the execution of the script. Think I'm kidding? // Gary |
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> Actually, I worked with Python for a while, and saw just how much
> easier it is to write spagetti code with it than it is with more > disciplined languages. That's a very valid criticism. I guess it comes down to personal coding preference. A related quote out there: "Python is not a nanny. It's a language for consenting adults. What you do with your classes is your business. If you use someone else's classes, it is your responsibility to consider the sanity of the source -- and to test." -- Terry Reedy > How about a snippet of code that executes > a Python script from a file, which returns the name of a method > to call on an object? Oh, and by the way, the method is dynamically > added to the object as a side effect of the execution of the script. Hey, that's cool. ;-p ____________________________________________________ http://www.redfish.com [hidden email] 624 Agua Fria Street office: (505)995-0206 Santa Fe, NM 87501 mobile: (505)577-5828 > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf > Of Gary Schiltz > Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 4:29 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Friam] Python Propaganda > > > I particularly liked the quote "scientists favor Python because > it reduces their dependency on professional programmers and gives > them more control over their own projects". Yeah right :-P > > Actually, I worked with Python for a while, and saw just how much > easier it is to write spagetti code with it than it is with more > disciplined languages. How about a snippet of code that executes > a Python script from a file, which returns the name of a method > to call on an object? Oh, and by the way, the method is dynamically > added to the object as a side effect of the execution of the script. > Think I'm kidding? > > // Gary > > > ========================================================= > FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv > Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe > Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: > http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > |
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In reply to this post by Friam mailing list
Lot of folks (and potential employers) like scripting languages,
and if you gotta have one, Python is as good as the next. After learning Python last year (pretty easy) to pad my resume, I found that I had no actual use for it. >>I particularly liked the quote "scientists favor Python because >>it reduces their dependency on professional programmers and gives >>them more control over their own projects". urk, uuuuhh, must resist.....oh well, <rant> If code is the scientific apparatus, I'm sorry but they don't get that control unless they become professional programmers themselves. Reproducable results are part of the scientific process. Questionable code == questionable science. </rant> "Ah hah! My time machine works! I've been to ancient Greece! I can prove it! See, I brought back this grape." Carl -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 4:29 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Friam] Python Propaganda I particularly liked the quote "scientists favor Python because it reduces their dependency on professional programmers and gives them more control over their own projects". Yeah right :-P Actually, I worked with Python for a while, and saw just how much easier it is to write spagetti code with it than it is with more disciplined languages. How about a snippet of code that executes a Python script from a file, which returns the name of a method to call on an object? Oh, and by the way, the method is dynamically added to the object as a side effect of the execution of the script. Think I'm kidding? // Gary ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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>>> I particularly liked the quote "scientists favor Python because
>>> it reduces their dependency on professional programmers and gives >>> them more control over their own projects". > > urk, uuuuhh, must resist.....oh well, > > <rant> > If code is the scientific apparatus, I'm sorry but they don't get that > control unless they become professional programmers themselves. > Reproducable results are part of the scientific process. > Questionable code == questionable science. > </rant> #vent long standing rant if notTooBusyForRanting: for rant in rantList: print "I'm not sure who 'they' is but I consider myself both a scientist and a programmer. Is this rare? Oddly, it seems very foreign to many people, I know it did back at RIT (despite the program being called 'Computer Science'). I often had conversations along this line with a friend of mine in the program. What should the average CS program focus on: programming skills that could get you a job (or used to be able to get you a job), or scientific practices? Can you do both successfully? At RIT, most of the work (at least and the undergrad level) focused on programming and very little science." Okay, so that was more an academic rant than a business one and that was only one rant so I guess I didn't need the loop. I just wanted to get more Python into the message ;-) -dan _______________________________________________ [hidden email] http://www.redfish.com office: (505)995-0206 624 Agua Fria Street Santa Fe, NM 87501 |
(Blog) What is "Science" ?
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2CDAA.AA8E92C0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0001_01C2CDAA.AA8E92C0" ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C2CDAA.AA8E92C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit RE: Dan's item on what is Computer Science Those of us trained as molecular biologists or biochemists (and physicists and chemists as well) have a narrowly-defined notion of what constitutes "Science". What constitutes "good" science is always a second-order question. The strict constructionists in our field insist that unless the Scientific Method (a VERY specific process, with well-defined logical rules) is employed, research - however rigorous and interesting - simply isn't "Science". Many in our field further insist that unless the research is experimental (as opposed to merely observational), it does not qualify as "Science", because if you can't do reproducible experiments, you can't use the Scientific Method, and if you can't use the Scientific Method, what you're doing simply isn't Science. This definition has generated a split in biology between the experimentalists, and "old-fashioned" biologists who simply went out and observed what was going on, and meticulously recorded their observations. To modern biologists, this is "Natural History", and not "Science". I have done both kinds of research - mostly experimental - and although I appreciate the value of observational Natural History, it is clearly NOT "Science" by modern standards. The same might be said of economics, sociology, and the other social sciences which are making a valiant effort to upgrade their validity by trying to appear "more" scientific through the use of computers and computational methods. Economics was the first to move in this direction in the early 60's when Ken Arrow and a few others fomented the "quantitative revolution" in economics, in an effort to do computational "experiments". One can argue whether or not this constitutes use of the Scientific Method , and therefore qualifies as "Science". Perhaps this kind of work might be defined as a totally different field of methodology, but we can leave those questions to the intellectual taxonomists. When I was a grad student at Stanford in the early 1980's, the Computer Science Department there was really moving into high-gear, and as we know, ultimately spawned dozens of companies in the Valley. I don't remember when the CS Department was created, but I think it was sometime in the 70's when it emerged from the Electrical Engineering Department, where anything computer related - hardware OR software - was done. There STILL is a split there, where the EE folks insist that CS is neither Science nor Engineering, but rather just programming with an inaccurate, pretentious name. There is no question that when I was at Stanford, Computer "Science" was a misnomer. Having worked for a while in the pioneering compuational biology group at SUMEX/AIM ("Stanford University Medical Experiment/Artificial Intelligence in Medecine"), I ran into dozens of CS grad students and CS faculty, and NONE of them I ever met had the faintest notion of what the "Scientific Method" was. Few if any of them really knew what an "experiment" was or how to design one. Their approach was definitely more engineering oriented: Define a problem, goal, or task, and then design a solution ... in this case, design a language or write a program. I never heard of or saw an experiment being done among the CS people. They designed programming languages and wrote software. Valuable and intersting yes! But "Science" it was not. This has always defined the difference between Science and Engineering. Science asks and answers questions. Engineering defines problems and generates solutions to those problems. In CS, there appears to have been some evolution in recent years which may ultimately legitimate the "Science" part of CS, and that is the recognition of complex emergent phenomena from computer systems and programs. Although clearly people observed that phenomenology in the 70's and early 80's, it was my perception that they viewed that emergent complexity as the result of "bugs" rather than the unpredictable nature of the hardware and software they were designing and using. The inability to predict the outcome of a program without running it (the "First Law" of Computer Science?), or the inability to reconstruct code from merely observing its outcome, suggests something more than just an engineering or programming problem. To a real "scientist", it suggests a natural phenomenon which can be studied by doing experiments employing the Scientific Method. That would be Computer Science". Everyone wants to claim the respectability of "Science" or of being "scientific", but I think we will be better served by using a rigorous definition of what that REALLY means. ____________________________________________ Richard C. CassÃn, Ph.D., Managing Director Rio Grande Venture Partners LLC Cassin@ RioGrandeVentures.com P.O. Box 5559 Santa Fe, NM 87502 505.466.0024 Rio Grande Venture Partners LLC http://www.RioGrandeVentures.com ____________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Daniel Kunkle Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 10:17 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Friam] Python Propaganda >>> I particularly liked the quote "scientists favor Python because >>> it reduces their dependency on professional programmers and gives >>> them more control over their own projects". > > urk, uuuuhh, must resist.....oh well, > > <rant> > If code is the scientific apparatus, I'm sorry but they don't get that > control unless they become professional programmers themselves. > Reproducable results are part of the scientific process. > Questionable code == questionable science. > </rant> #vent long standing rant if notTooBusyForRanting: for rant in rantList: print "I'm not sure who 'they' is but I consider myself both a scientist and a programmer. Is this rare? Oddly, it seems very foreign to many people, I know it did back at RIT (despite the program being called 'Computer Science'). I often had conversations along this line with a friend of mine in the program. What should the average CS program focus on: programming skills that could get you a job (or used to be able to get you a job), or scientific practices? Can you do both successfully? At RIT, most of the work (at least and the undergrad level) focused on programming and very little science." Okay, so that was more an academic rant than a business one and that was only one rant so I guess I didn't need the loop. I just wanted to get more Python into the message ;-) -dan _______________________________________________ [hidden email] http://www.redfish.com office: (505)995-0206 624 Agua Fria Street Santa Fe, NM 87501 ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C2CDAA.AA8E92C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>RE: Dan's item on what = is Computer=20 Science</FONT><BR><BR> <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Those of us trained as = molecular=20 biologists or biochemists (and physicists and chemists as=20 well) have a narrowly-defined notion of what constitutes "Science". = What=20 constitutes <EM>"good"</EM> science is always a second-order question. = The=20 strict constructionists in our field insist that unless the Scientific = Method (a=20 VERY specific process, with well-defined logical rules) is=20 employed, research - however rigorous and interesting=20 - simply isn't "Science". Many in our field = further=20 insist that unless the research is experimental (as opposed to merely=20 observational), it does not qualify as "Science", because if you can't = do=20 reproducible experiments, you can't use the Scientific Method, and if = you can't=20 use the Scientific Method, what you're doing simply isn't Science. This=20 definition has generated a split in biology between the = experimentalists, and=20 "old-fashioned" biologists who simply went out and observed what was = going on,=20 and meticulously recorded their observations. To <EM>modern</EM> =20 biologists, this is "Natural History", and not "Science". I have done = both kinds=20 of research - mostly experimental - and although I appreciate the value = of=20 observational Natural History, it is clearly NOT "Science" by modern = standards.=20 </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The same might be said of = economics,=20 sociology, and the other social sciences which are making a valiant = effort to=20 upgrade their validity by trying to appear "more" scientific through the = use of=20 computers and computational methods. Economics was the first to move in = this=20 direction in the early 60's when Ken Arrow and a few others fomented the = "quantitative revolution" in economics, in an effort to do computational = "experiments". One can argue whether or not this constitutes use of the=20 Scientific Method , and therefore qualifies as "Science". Perhaps this = kind of=20 work might be defined as a totally different field of methodology, but = we can=20 leave those questions to the intellectual taxonomists.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>When I was a grad = student at=20 Stanford in the early 1980's, the Computer<EM> Science</EM> Department = there was=20 really moving into high-gear, and as we know, ultimately spawned dozens = of=20 companies in the Valley. I don't remember when the CS Department was = created,=20 but I think it was sometime in the 70's when it emerged from the = Electrical=20 Engineering Department, where anything computer related - hardware OR = software -=20 was done. There STILL is a split there, where the EE folks insist that = CS is=20 <EM>neither</EM> Science <EM>nor</EM> Engineering, but rather just = programming with an inaccurate, pretentious name. There is no question = that when=20 I was at Stanford, Computer "Science" was a misnomer. Having worked = for a=20 while in the pioneering compuational biology group at SUMEX/AIM = <EM>("Stanford=20 University Medical Experiment/Artificial Intelligence in Medecine"), = </EM>I ran=20 into dozens of CS grad students and CS faculty, and NONE of them I ever=20 met had the faintest notion of what the "Scientific Method" was. = Few if any=20 of them really knew what an "experiment" was or how to design one. Their = approach was definitely more engineering oriented: Define a problem, = goal, or=20 task, and then design a solution ... in this case, design a language or = write a=20 program. I never heard of or saw an experiment being done among the CS = people.=20 They designed programming languages and wrote software. Valuable and = intersting=20 yes! But "Science" it was not.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>This has always defined = the difference=20 between Science and Engineering. Science asks and answers questions. = Engineering=20 defines problems and generates solutions to those problems. In CS, there = appears=20 to have been some evolution in recent years which may ultimately = legitimate=20 the "Science" part of CS, and that is the recognition of complex = emergent=20 phenomena from computer systems and programs. Although clearly people = observed=20 that phenomenology in the 70's and early 80's, it was my perception that = they=20 viewed that emergent complexity as the result of "bugs" rather than the=20 unpredictable nature of the hardware and software they were designing=20 and using. The inability to predict the outcome of a program = without=20 running it (the "First Law" of Computer Science?), or the inability to=20 reconstruct code from merely observing its outcome, suggests something = more than=20 just an engineering or programming problem. To a real "scientist", it = suggests a=20 natural phenomenon which can be studied by doing experiments employing = the=20 Scientific Method. That would be Computer <EM>Science</EM>".</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Everyone wants to claim = the=20 respectability of "Science" or of being "scientific", but I think = we will=20 be better served by using a rigorous definition of what that REALLY = means.<BR><IMG height=3D69 alt=3D"Richard small signature.JPG (2360 = bytes)"=20 src=3D"cid:170304013@06022003-170b" width=3D100></P></FONT> <DIV> <DIV> <P><FONT color=3D#000080> <SPAN=20 class=3D340533117-13062002> </SPAN> ___________________________= _________________<?xml:namespace=20 prefix =3D o ns =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = /><o:p></o:p>=20 </FONT></P> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 2.25in"><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> <FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20 class=3D910462500-13062002> </SP= AN></SPAN><STRONG>=20 </STRONG><BIG> Richard C. Cass=EDn, Ph.D., <EM>Managing=20 Director</BIG><BR> &= nbsp; =20 </EM><BIG> Rio Grande Venture Partners LLC</BIG><EM><BR><SPAN=20 class=3D180355416-13062002> &nbs= p; =20 </SPAN></EM> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cassin@=20 RioGrandeVentures.com</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> <EM> <SPAN=20 class=3D910462500-13062002> &nbs= p; </SPAN></EM> <SPAN= =20 class=3D910462500-13062002><FONT=20 color=3D#000000> &nb= sp; <SPAN=20 class=3D180355416-13062002> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN> <= /SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 2.25in"><FONT = color=3D#000080><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"> = <SPAN=20 class=3D180355416-13062002> </SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN=20 class=3D180355416-13062002> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"> <FONT=20 face=3DArial>P.O. Box 5559</SPAN><BR><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: = yes"> &n= bsp; &nb= sp; <SPAN=20 class=3D180355416-13062002> </SPAN></SPAN> &n= bsp;=20 <SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></SPAN><SMALL>Santa Fe, = NM <SPAN=20 class=3D180355416-13062002>87502</SPAN><BR><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: = yes"> &n= bsp; &nb= sp; <SPAN=20 class=3D180355416-13062002> </SPAN> <SPAN=20 class=3D180355416-13062002> </SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> =20 </SPAN></SPAN>505.466.0024</SMALL></FONT></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 2.25in"><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"> <SPAN=20 class=3D500442317-13062002> </SPAN> <SPAN=20 class=3D500442317-13062002> </SPAN></SPAN><IMG height=3D123=20 alt=3D"Rio Grande Ventures Logo.JPG (14976 bytes)"=20 src=3D"cid:170304013@06022003-1712"=20 width=3D341><BR> &nb= sp;<STRONG><SPAN=20 class=3D910462500-13062002><FONT face=3D"Monotype Corsiva" = color=3D#0080c0 size=3D5>Rio=20 Grande Venture Partners LLC</FONT><FONT face=3DBroadway color=3D#000080 = size=3D5>=20 </FONT></SPAN></STRONG></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 2.25in"><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"> = =20 <SPAN class=3D180355416-13062002> = </SPAN><FONT=20 color=3D#000080><A = href=3D"http://www.riograndeventures.com/">http://www.<SPAN=20 class=3D910462500-13062002>RioGrandeVentures.com</SPAN></A></SPAN><BR>&nb= sp; <SPAN=20 class=3D340533117-13062002> = </SPAN> ___________________________<SPAN=20 class=3D340533117-13062002>_</SPAN>_______________<SPAN=20 class=3D060420120-24092001>_</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> <P><SPAN class=3D180355416-13062002></SPAN><BR></P> <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT> </P></DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <P><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>-----Original = Message-----<BR>From:=20 [hidden email] [</FONT><A=20 href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]"><FONT=20 face=3DArial>mailto:[hidden email]</FONT></A><FONT = face=3DArial>]On=20 Behalf<BR>Of Daniel Kunkle<BR>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 = 10:17=20 PM<BR>To: [hidden email]<BR>Subject: Re: [Friam] Python=20 Propaganda<BR><BR><BR>>>> I particularly liked the quote=20 "scientists favor Python because<BR>>>> it reduces their = dependency=20 on professional programmers and gives<BR>>>> them more = control over=20 their own projects".<BR>><BR>> urk, uuuuhh, must resist.....oh = well,<BR>><BR>> <rant><BR>> If code is the scientific = apparatus, I'm sorry but they don't get that<BR>> control unless = they=20 become professional programmers themselves.<BR>> Reproducable = results are=20 part of the scientific process.<BR>> Questionable code =3D=3D = questionable=20 science.<BR>> </rant><BR><BR>#vent long standing rant<BR>if = notTooBusyForRanting:<BR> = for rant=20 in rantList:<BR> =20 print "I'm not sure who = 'they' is=20 but I consider myself both a<BR>scientist and a programmer. Is this = rare?=20 Oddly, it seems very foreign<BR>to many people, I know it did back = at RIT=20 (despite the program being<BR>called 'Computer Science'). I often = had=20 conversations along this line<BR>with a friend of mine in the = program. What=20 should the average CS<BR>program focus on: programming skills that = could get=20 you a job (or used<BR>to be able to get you a job), or scientific = practices?=20 Can you do both<BR>successfully? At RIT, most of the work (at = least=20 and the undergrad<BR>level) focused on programming and very little=20 science."<BR><BR>Okay, so that was more an academic rant than a = business one=20 and that<BR>was only one rant so I guess I didn't need the loop. I = just=20 wanted to<BR>get more Python into the message=20 = ;-)<BR><BR>-dan<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>dan= .[hidden email] =20 </FONT><A=20 href=3D"http://www.redfish.com" target=3D_blank><FONT=20 face=3DArial>http://www.redfish.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT = face=3DArial>office:=20 (505)995-0206 = 624=20 Agua Fria Street<BR> =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Santa Fe, NM=20 = 87501<BR><BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>FRIAM=20 Complexity Coffee listserv<BR>Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill=20 Cafe<BR>Archives, unsubscribe, etc.:<BR></FONT><A=20 href=3D"http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"=20 target=3D_blank><FONT=20 = face=3DArial>http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</F= ONT></A><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C2CDAA.AA8E92C0-- 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(Blog) What is "Science" ?
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_028C_01C2CDB3.A311FBA0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_028D_01C2CDB3.A311FBA0" ------=_NextPart_001_028D_01C2CDB3.A311FBA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A couple of thoughts: My CMU philosophy department colleagues have developed methods for = inferring causal relationships from observational data. The orthodoxy = of statisticians and epidemiologists and others says that to infer that = one variable causes another you must: a.. Randomly assign cases to treatments. b.. Measure the outcome for each treatment c.. Apply some statistical method (e.g. analysis of variance) to = reject (or not) the null hypothesis that the treatments have no effect. d.. If you reject the null hypothesis you can conclude that the = treatment variable causes the observed variable This may be something like what Richard calls the scientific method. = The epidemiologists say that "correlation is not causation" and that = unless you do such an experiment you don't know whether smoking causes = cancer or cancer causes smoking--to cite a preposterous example. I'll = be happy to explain the inference of causation from conditional = independence among observed variables if anyone is interested. Richard says, "I never heard of or saw an experiment being done among = the CS people..." In my dissertation research (University of Pittsburgh = Computer Science) I did a comprehensive set of experiments to relate = properties of linear systems arising in finite element analysis to the = best memory management techniques. The matrices wouldn't fit in memory = and I/O from/to disks (or other storage devices including large scale = slow memory) dominated the time of doing floating point arthmetic. The = paper that I am about to submit is similar in that I do a large number = of experiments to test various algorithms for their effectiveness in = solving the inverse problem for gene regulation networks. Neither of = these problems which I have addressed experimentally is easily amenable = to an analytic approach because of their complexity (different meaning). = I admit that most research done by computer scientists is either = theoretical or of the kind described by Richard. Frank --- Frank C. Wimberly 505 995-8715 or 505 = 670-9918 (mobile) 140 Calle Ojo Feliz = [hidden email] or [hidden email] Santa Fe, NM 87505 = http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dr. Richard Cassin - Rio Grande Venture Partners=20 To: [hidden email]=20 Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 6:40 AM Subject: RE: [Friam] (Blog) What is "Science" ? RE: Dan's item on what is Computer Science Those of us trained as molecular biologists or biochemists (and = physicists and chemists as well) have a narrowly-defined notion of what = constitutes "Science". What constitutes "good" science is always a = second-order question. The strict constructionists in our field insist = that unless the Scientific Method (a VERY specific process, with = well-defined logical rules) is employed, research - however rigorous and = interesting - simply isn't "Science". Many in our field further = insist that unless the research is experimental (as opposed to merely = observational), it does not qualify as "Science", because if you can't = do reproducible experiments, you can't use the Scientific Method, and if = you can't use the Scientific Method, what you're doing simply isn't = Science. This definition has generated a split in biology between the = experimentalists, and "old-fashioned" biologists who simply went out and = observed what was going on, and meticulously recorded their = observations. To modern biologists, this is "Natural History", and not = "Science". I have done both kinds of research - mostly experimental - = and although I appreciate the value of observational Natural History, it = is clearly NOT "Science" by modern standards.=20 The same might be said of economics, sociology, and the other social = sciences which are making a valiant effort to upgrade their validity by = trying to appear "more" scientific through the use of computers and = computational methods. Economics was the first to move in this direction = in the early 60's when Ken Arrow and a few others fomented the = "quantitative revolution" in economics, in an effort to do computational = "experiments". One can argue whether or not this constitutes use of the = Scientific Method , and therefore qualifies as "Science". Perhaps this = kind of work might be defined as a totally different field of = methodology, but we can leave those questions to the intellectual = taxonomists. When I was a grad student at Stanford in the early 1980's, the = Computer Science Department there was really moving into high-gear, and = as we know, ultimately spawned dozens of companies in the Valley. I = don't remember when the CS Department was created, but I think it was = sometime in the 70's when it emerged from the Electrical Engineering = Department, where anything computer related - hardware OR software - was = done. There STILL is a split there, where the EE folks insist that CS is = neither Science nor Engineering, but rather just programming with an = inaccurate, pretentious name. There is no question that when I was at = Stanford, Computer "Science" was a misnomer. Having worked for a while = in the pioneering compuational biology group at SUMEX/AIM ("Stanford = University Medical Experiment/Artificial Intelligence in Medecine"), I = ran into dozens of CS grad students and CS faculty, and NONE of them I = ever met had the faintest notion of what the "Scientific Method" was. = Few if any of them really knew what an "experiment" was or how to design = one. Their approach was definitely more engineering oriented: Define a = problem, goal, or task, and then design a solution ... in this case, = design a language or write a program. I never heard of or saw an = experiment being done among the CS people. They designed programming = languages and wrote software. Valuable and intersting yes! But "Science" = it was not. This has always defined the difference between Science and = Engineering. Science asks and answers questions. Engineering defines = problems and generates solutions to those problems. In CS, there appears = to have been some evolution in recent years which may ultimately = legitimate the "Science" part of CS, and that is the recognition of = complex emergent phenomena from computer systems and programs. Although = clearly people observed that phenomenology in the 70's and early 80's, = it was my perception that they viewed that emergent complexity as the = result of "bugs" rather than the unpredictable nature of the hardware = and software they were designing and using. The inability to predict the = outcome of a program without running it (the "First Law" of Computer = Science?), or the inability to reconstruct code from merely observing = its outcome, suggests something more than just an engineering or = programming problem. To a real "scientist", it suggests a natural = phenomenon which can be studied by doing experiments employing the = Scientific Method. That would be Computer Science". Everyone wants to claim the respectability of "Science" or of being = "scientific", but I think we will be better served by using a rigorous = definition of what that REALLY means. ____________________________________________=20 Richard C. Cass=EDn, Ph.D., Managing Director Rio Grande Venture Partners LLC Cassin@ RioGrandeVentures.com = =20 P.O. Box 5559 Santa Fe, NM 87502 505.466.0024 =20 Rio Grande Venture Partners LLC=20 http://www.RioGrandeVentures.com ____________________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On = Behalf Of Daniel Kunkle Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 10:17 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Friam] Python Propaganda >>> I particularly liked the quote "scientists favor Python = because >>> it reduces their dependency on professional programmers and = gives >>> them more control over their own projects". > > urk, uuuuhh, must resist.....oh well, > > <rant> > If code is the scientific apparatus, I'm sorry but they don't = get that > control unless they become professional programmers themselves. > Reproducable results are part of the scientific process. > Questionable code =3D=3D questionable science. > </rant> #vent long standing rant if notTooBusyForRanting: for rant in rantList: print "I'm not sure who 'they' is but I consider = myself both a scientist and a programmer. Is this rare? Oddly, it seems very = foreign to many people, I know it did back at RIT (despite the program = being called 'Computer Science'). I often had conversations along this = line with a friend of mine in the program. What should the average CS program focus on: programming skills that could get you a job (or = used to be able to get you a job), or scientific practices? Can you do = both successfully? At RIT, most of the work (at least and the = undergrad level) focused on programming and very little science." Okay, so that was more an academic rant than a business one and = that was only one rant so I guess I didn't need the loop. I just wanted = to get more Python into the message ;-) -dan _______________________________________________ [hidden email] http://www.redfish.com office: (505)995-0206 624 Agua Fria Street Santa Fe, NM 87501 = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ------=_NextPart_001_028D_01C2CDB3.A311FBA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns:o =3D = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dwindows-1252"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1126" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV>A couple of thoughts:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My CMU philosophy department colleagues have developed methods for=20 inferring causal relationships from observational data. The = orthodoxy of=20 statisticians and epidemiologists and others says that to infer that one = variable causes another you must:</DIV> <UL> <LI>Randomly assign cases to treatments.</LI> <LI>Measure the outcome for each treatment</LI> <LI>Apply some statistical method (e.g. analysis of variance) to = reject (or=20 not) the null hypothesis that the treatments have no effect.</LI> <LI>If you reject the null hypothesis you can conclude that the = treatment=20 variable causes the observed variable</LI></UL> <DIV>This may be something like what Richard calls the scientific = method. =20 The epidemiologists say that "correlation is not causation" and that = unless you=20 do such an experiment you don't know whether smoking causes cancer or = cancer=20 causes smoking--to cite a preposterous example. I'll be happy to = explain=20 the inference of causation from conditional independence among observed=20 variables if anyone is interested.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Richard says, "<FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I never = heard of or=20 saw an experiment being done among the CS people..." <FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D3>In my = dissertation research=20 (University of Pittsburgh Computer Science) I did a comprehensive set of = experiments to relate properties of linear systems arising in finite = element=20 analysis to the best memory management techniques. = The matrices=20 wouldn't fit in memory and I/O from/to disks (or other storage devices = including=20 large scale slow memory) dominated the time of doing floating point=20 arthmetic. The paper that I am about to submit is similar in that = I do a=20 large number of experiments to test various algorithms for their = effectiveness=20 in solving the inverse problem for gene regulation networks. = Neither of=20 these problems which I have addressed experimentally is easily = amenable to=20 an analytic approach because of their complexity (different=20 meaning).</FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I admit that <EM>most </EM>research done by computer scientists is = either=20 theoretical or of the kind described by Richard.<BR></DIV> <DIV>Frank</DIV> <DIV>---</DIV> <DIV>Frank C.=20 Wimberly  = ; = =20 505 995-8715 or 505 670-9918 (mobile)<BR>140 Calle Ojo=20 Feliz &n= bsp; &nb= sp; =20 <A href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</A> = or <A=20 href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</A><B= R>Santa=20 Fe, NM=20 87505 &n= bsp; &nb= sp; =20 <A=20 href=3D"http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/wimberly">http://www.andrew.cmu.ed= u/user/wimberly</A><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A title=[hidden email]=20 href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]">Dr. Richard Cassin - Rio = Grande=20 Venture Partners</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=[hidden email]=20 href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]">[hidden email]</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February 06, = 2003 6:40=20 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Friam] (Blog) = What is=20 "Science" ?</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>RE: Dan's = item on what is=20 Computer Science</FONT><BR><BR> <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Those of us trained as = molecular=20 biologists or biochemists (and physicists and chemists as=20 well) have a narrowly-defined notion of what constitutes = "Science". What=20 constitutes <EM>"good"</EM> science is always a second-order question. = The=20 strict constructionists in our field insist that unless the Scientific = Method=20 (a VERY specific process, with well-defined logical rules) is=20 employed, research - however rigorous and interesting=20 - simply isn't "Science". Many in our field = further=20 insist that unless the research is experimental (as opposed to merely=20 observational), it does not qualify as "Science", because if you can't = do=20 reproducible experiments, you can't use the Scientific Method, and if = you=20 can't use the Scientific Method, what you're doing simply isn't = Science. This=20 definition has generated a split in biology between the = experimentalists, and=20 "old-fashioned" biologists who simply went out and observed what was = going on,=20 and meticulously recorded their observations. To <EM>modern</EM> = biologists, this is "Natural History", and not "Science". I have done = both=20 kinds of research - mostly experimental - and although I appreciate = the value=20 of observational Natural History, it is clearly NOT "Science" by = modern=20 standards. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The same might be said = of economics,=20 sociology, and the other social sciences which are making a valiant = effort to=20 upgrade their validity by trying to appear "more" scientific through = the use=20 of computers and computational methods. Economics was the first to = move in=20 this direction in the early 60's when Ken Arrow and a few others = fomented the=20 "quantitative revolution" in economics, in an effort to do = computational=20 "experiments". One can argue whether or not this constitutes use of = the=20 Scientific Method , and therefore qualifies as "Science". Perhaps this = kind of=20 work might be defined as a totally different field of methodology, but = we can=20 leave those questions to the intellectual taxonomists.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>When I was a grad = student at=20 Stanford in the early 1980's, the Computer<EM> Science</EM> Department = there=20 was really moving into high-gear, and as we know, ultimately spawned = dozens of=20 companies in the Valley. I don't remember when the CS Department was = created,=20 but I think it was sometime in the 70's when it emerged from the = Electrical=20 Engineering Department, where anything computer related - hardware OR = software=20 - was done. There STILL is a split there, where the EE folks insist = that CS is=20 <EM>neither</EM> Science <EM>nor</EM> Engineering, but rather = just=20 programming with an inaccurate, pretentious name. There is no question = that=20 when I was at Stanford, Computer "Science" was a misnomer. Having = worked=20 for a while in the pioneering compuational biology group at SUMEX/AIM=20 <EM>("Stanford University Medical Experiment/Artificial Intelligence = in=20 Medecine"), </EM>I ran into dozens of CS grad students and CS faculty, = and=20 NONE of them I ever met had the faintest notion of what the = "Scientific=20 Method" was. Few if any of them really knew what an "experiment" was = or how to=20 design one. Their approach was definitely more engineering oriented: = Define a=20 problem, goal, or task, and then design a solution ... in this case, = design a=20 language or write a program. I never heard of or saw an experiment = being done=20 among the CS people. They designed programming languages and wrote = software.=20 Valuable and intersting yes! But "Science" it was not.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>This has always defined = the=20 difference between Science and Engineering. Science asks and answers=20 questions. Engineering defines problems and generates solutions to = those=20 problems. In CS, there appears to have been some evolution in recent=20 years which may ultimately legitimate the "Science" part of CS, = and that=20 is the recognition of complex emergent phenomena from computer systems = and=20 programs. Although clearly people observed that phenomenology in the = 70's and=20 early 80's, it was my perception that they viewed that emergent = complexity as=20 the result of "bugs" rather than the unpredictable nature of the = hardware and=20 software they were designing and using. The inability to predict = the=20 outcome of a program without running it (the "First Law" of Computer=20 Science?), or the inability to reconstruct code from merely observing = its=20 outcome, suggests something more than just an engineering or = programming=20 problem. To a real "scientist", it suggests a natural phenomenon which = can be=20 studied by doing experiments employing the Scientific Method. That = would be=20 Computer <EM>Science</EM>".</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Everyone wants to claim = the=20 respectability of "Science" or of being "scientific", but I think = we will=20 be better served by using a rigorous definition of what that = REALLY=20 means.<BR><IMG height=3D69 alt=3D"Richard small signature.JPG (2360 = bytes)"=20 src=3D"cid:028a01c2cdee$4f600ac0$0201a8c0@ffnpv01" = width=3D100></P></FONT> <DIV> <DIV> <P><FONT color=3D#000080> <SPAN=20 = class=3D340533117-13062002> </SPAN> ___________________________= _________________<o:p></o:p>=20 </FONT></P> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 2.25in"><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> <FONT color=3D#000080><SPAN=20 = class=3D910462500-13062002> </SP= AN></SPAN><STRONG>=20 </STRONG><BIG> Richard C. Cass=EDn, Ph.D., <EM>Managing=20 = Director</BIG><BR> &= nbsp; =20 </EM><BIG> Rio Grande Venture Partners LLC</BIG><EM><BR><SPAN=20 = class=3D180355416-13062002> &nbs= p; =20 </SPAN></EM> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cassin@=20 RioGrandeVentures.com</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> <EM> <SPAN=20 = class=3D910462500-13062002> &nbs= p; </SPAN></EM> <SPAN= =20 class=3D910462500-13062002><FONT=20 = color=3D#000000> &nb= sp; <SPAN=20 = class=3D180355416-13062002> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN> <= /SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 2.25in"><FONT = color=3D#000080><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"> = <SPAN=20 class=3D180355416-13062002> </SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN=20 class=3D180355416-13062002> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"> <FONT=20 face=3DArial>P.O. Box 5559</SPAN><BR><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: = yes"> &n= bsp; &nb= sp; <SPAN=20 = class=3D180355416-13062002> </SPAN></SPAN> &n= bsp;=20 <SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></SPAN><SMALL>Santa Fe, = NM <SPAN=20 class=3D180355416-13062002>87502</SPAN><BR><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: = yes"> &n= bsp; &nb= sp; <SPAN=20 class=3D180355416-13062002> </SPAN> <SPAN=20 class=3D180355416-13062002> </SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> =20 </SPAN></SPAN>505.466.0024</SMALL></FONT></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 2.25in"><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"> <SPAN=20 class=3D500442317-13062002> </SPAN> <SPAN=20 class=3D500442317-13062002> </SPAN></SPAN><IMG height=3D123=20 alt=3D"Rio Grande Ventures Logo.JPG (14976 bytes)"=20 src=3D"cid:028b01c2cdee$4f600ac0$0201a8c0@ffnpv01"=20 = width=3D341><BR> &nb= sp;<STRONG><SPAN=20 class=3D910462500-13062002><FONT face=3D"Monotype Corsiva" = color=3D#0080c0=20 size=3D5>Rio Grande Venture Partners LLC</FONT><FONT face=3DBroadway = color=3D#000080=20 size=3D5> </FONT></SPAN></STRONG></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 2.25in"><SPAN=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"> = =20 <SPAN class=3D180355416-13062002> = </SPAN><FONT=20 color=3D#000080><A = href=3D"http://www.riograndeventures.com/">http://www.<SPAN=20 = class=3D910462500-13062002>RioGrandeVentures.com</SPAN></A></SPAN><BR>&nb= sp; <SPAN=20 class=3D340533117-13062002> = </SPAN> ___________________________<SPAN=20 class=3D340533117-13062002>_</SPAN>_______________<SPAN=20 class=3D060420120-24092001>_</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> <P><SPAN class=3D180355416-13062002></SPAN><BR></P> <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT> </P></DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <P><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>-----Original = Message-----<BR>From:=20 [hidden email] [</FONT><A=20 href=3D"mailto:[hidden email]"><FONT=20 face=3DArial>mailto:[hidden email]</FONT></A><FONT = face=3DArial>]On=20 Behalf<BR>Of Daniel Kunkle<BR>Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 = 10:17=20 PM<BR>To: [hidden email]<BR>Subject: Re: [Friam] Python=20 Propaganda<BR><BR><BR>>>> I particularly liked the quote=20 "scientists favor Python because<BR>>>> it reduces their=20 dependency on professional programmers and gives<BR>>>> = them more=20 control over their own projects".<BR>><BR>> urk, uuuuhh, = must=20 resist.....oh well,<BR>><BR>> <rant><BR>> If code = is the=20 scientific apparatus, I'm sorry but they don't get that<BR>> = control=20 unless they become professional programmers themselves.<BR>>=20 Reproducable results are part of the scientific process.<BR>>=20 Questionable code =3D=3D questionable science.<BR>>=20 </rant><BR><BR>#vent long standing rant<BR>if=20 = notTooBusyForRanting:<BR> for=20 rant in rantList:<BR> =20 print "I'm not sure who = 'they'=20 is but I consider myself both a<BR>scientist and a programmer. Is = this=20 rare? Oddly, it seems very foreign<BR>to many people, I know it = did back=20 at RIT (despite the program being<BR>called 'Computer Science'). I = often=20 had conversations along this line<BR>with a friend of mine in the = program.=20 What should the average CS<BR>program focus on: programming skills = that=20 could get you a job (or used<BR>to be able to get you a job), or=20 scientific practices? Can you do both<BR>successfully? At = RIT, most=20 of the work (at least and the undergrad<BR>level) focused on = programming=20 and very little science."<BR><BR>Okay, so that was more an = academic rant=20 than a business one and that<BR>was only one rant so I guess I = didn't need=20 the loop. I just wanted to<BR>get more Python into the message=20 = ;-)<BR><BR>-dan<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>dan= .[hidden email] =20 </FONT><A=20 href=3D"http://www.redfish.com" target=3D_blank><FONT=20 face=3DArial>http://www.redfish.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT = face=3DArial>office:=20 (505)995-0206 = 624=20 Agua Fria Street<BR> =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Santa Fe, NM=20 = 87501<BR><BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>FRIAM=20 Complexity Coffee listserv<BR>Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill=20 Cafe<BR>Archives, unsubscribe, etc.:<BR></FONT><A=20 href=3D"http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" = target=3D_blank><FONT=20 = face=3DArial>http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</F= ONT></A><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HT= ML> 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(Blog) What is "Science" ?
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Wow, from scripting language flame bait to full scale epistemological
war in less than 24 hours. Who put the nickel in this mailing list? Personally, I have a very wide definition of science. My training as a chemist included both working out Schrodinger's equation for the hydrogen atom and its spectroscopic consequences, and sitting around arguing about where electrons "want to go" to rationalize organic reaction mechanisms. Text book science and shamelessly making up explanations that could never be tested, all thoroughly covered in the two year core curriculum for physical and organic chemistry. As for scripting languages, all I have to say is: programming languages don't write bad code, .... -- rec -- |
(Blog) What is "Science" ?
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It's probably important to try to draw a distinction between computational
program rigor and scientific rigor. For the programmer, there are certain areas of concern: "Does it compile", "Does it run without crashing", is it "robust" and "reliable", "how does it scale", "how do I find reasonable metrics for robustness, reliability and scalability", "how do I validate the program against those metrics", "Does the structure of my program tools inadvertently inject artifacts that will lead to false conclusions"? These questions are not usually separable in the day-to-day from questions of domain modeling, representation and results analysis, where the programmer's questions begin to overlap with questions of scientific rigor. (Note how easy it is to confuse the "program" with the "model".) Frustration arises when the communities are more separate; it is easy for members of one community to sometimes trivialize the efforts of the other if the goals and rewards mechanisms are not in sync (which is in part why oustsourcing scientific programming is seldom wise and why good project managers are so valuable). Scientific effort to me has come to mean having some standards of integrity about matching assertions to method, e.g., if we say we have systematically explored a space of possibilities, then we should be able to show somebody how we have done so. On the other hand, if I say "my feet hurt, so I think it will rain", that might be a different kind of assertion/method pair. Within that context of integrity, it's important not to inadvertently mislead customers about what they're getting. Accordingly, my sense is that scientific methods flow from scientific ethics; the ethics are closer to the core than the method. In my limited experience, CS programs tend to not teach that, at least not explicitly. As for scripting languages, peace. If I don't learn and use the French language, it may come to pass that I will find my world arranged so that I have less use for knowing it. This doesn't say anything about the goodness of the language per se. While Lisp and Python (to name but two) are no doubt powerful languages, I am lazy by nature and prefer computing languages that enforce stronger typing. -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Roger E Critchlow Jr Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 10:03 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Friam] (Blog) What is "Science" ? Wow, from scripting language flame bait to full scale epistemological war in less than 24 hours. Who put the nickel in this mailing list? Personally, I have a very wide definition of science. My training as a chemist included both working out Schrodinger's equation for the hydrogen atom and its spectroscopic consequences, and sitting around arguing about where electrons "want to go" to rationalize organic reaction mechanisms. Text book science and shamelessly making up explanations that could never be tested, all thoroughly covered in the two year core curriculum for physical and organic chemistry. As for scripting languages, all I have to say is: programming languages don't write bad code, .... -- rec -- ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
(Blog) What is "Science" ?
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In reply to this post by Friam mailing list
I think computing is definitely taking a turn to being more formal,
possibly more scientific. Certainly the tree I'm currently barking up is to advance complexity tools and methods into the corporation. It certainly succeeded to some degree in peer systems and in the new AutoID work. This is not the scientific method per se, but it is mathematical, which always goes a long way for me! Now the real question: Who are the next Von Neuman's and Turring's? One might make the point that the graph theorists are among them. And the modern heuristic folks (the early SFI folks, for example) may also belong. Owen Densmore 451 Camino Don Miguel Santa Fe, NM 87505 505-988-3787 http://backspaces.net/ [hidden email] Cell: 505-988-3787 |
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