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Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere

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Owen Densmore

Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere

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Roger Critchlow gave an excellent talk a few weeks ago which included
implementing a model in several software frameworks: Repast, Netlogo,
Starlogo, and Processing.

Processing is a very interesting 2D/3D system written in Java.
http://www.processing.org/
It has many of the features we love about Netlogo .. one of which is
being able to deploy the program in an applet. Our interest is to
consider it for ABM in cases where good rendering and 3D is needed.
And its quite fast .. it preprocesses into Java and compiles on the
fly, so is running standard Java rather than interpreting like Netlogo.

Processing has several features that are appealing:
- Nice built-in IDE
- Simplified Java use by IDE including auto compilation.
- Simple conventions for "setup" and "draw" loop like netlogo
- Good conventions for data inclusion (maps, xml etc)
- Great deployment features: as an applet, or as an application.
(It creates three app bundles: Linux, Mac, Windows.)
- Reasonable documentation and examples, nicely laid out and web
available.
- A very active community
It is still "beta" and we might be able to influence their future
directions, especially toward ease of access to all of OpenGL
directly, and for possibly ABM libraries.

Here is a simple applet (well, I had to hack quite a while to get the
trig and coord systems right!) that shows an earth sphere. Click and
drag to move it around.
http://www.backspaces.net/files/play/
It uses a special renderer, P3D, written entirely in Java. When
doing development or deploying as applications, a much faster OPENGL
renderer is available using the JOGL Java-OpenGL bindings.

-- Owen

Owen Densmore
http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org

Stephen Guerin

Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere

Very cool, Owen!

As a backdrop to Owen and my discussions, we're taking this week to explore
alternative visualization tools for InfoVis and ABM visualization. Processing is
a strong contender especially when applet deployment is an issue.

I've been looking at Blender (http://www.blender3d.org), the open source, cross
platform maya-like 3D environment that is python scriptable, does nice offline
ray-traced renderings and has a deployable Windows/Mac/Linux game engine. If we
can turn it into a decent ABM/visualization platform, we may call the agents
frogs instead of turtles...ie "Frogs in a Blender" ;-)

Here's a quicktime of a similar earth vis experiment that's importing data for
the size and color of city columns from a CSV file.
http://www.redfish.com/research/GEEarth_compressed640.mov

-Steve

______________________________________________________________
stephen.guerin at redfish.com
http://www.redfish.com
624 Agua Fria Street, Santa Fe, NM 87501
Santa Fe, NM (505)995-0206 / London, UK +44 (0) 20 7993 4769

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Owen Densmore [mailto:owen at backspaces.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 5:14 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Friam
> Subject: [FRIAM] Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere
>
>
> Roger Critchlow gave an excellent talk a few weeks ago which included
> implementing a model in several software frameworks: Repast, Netlogo,
> Starlogo, and Processing.
>
> Processing is a very interesting 2D/3D system written in Java.
> http://www.processing.org/
> It has many of the features we love about Netlogo .. one of which is
> being able to deploy the program in an applet. Our interest is to
> consider it for ABM in cases where good rendering and 3D is needed.
> And its quite fast .. it preprocesses into Java and compiles on the
> fly, so is running standard Java rather than interpreting like Netlogo.
>
> Processing has several features that are appealing:
> - Nice built-in IDE
> - Simplified Java use by IDE including auto compilation.
> - Simple conventions for "setup" and "draw" loop like netlogo
> - Good conventions for data inclusion (maps, xml etc)
> - Great deployment features: as an applet, or as an application.
> (It creates three app bundles: Linux, Mac, Windows.)
> - Reasonable documentation and examples, nicely laid out and web
> available.
> - A very active community
> It is still "beta" and we might be able to influence their future
> directions, especially toward ease of access to all of OpenGL
> directly, and for possibly ABM libraries.
>
> Here is a simple applet (well, I had to hack quite a while to get the
> trig and coord systems right!) that shows an earth sphere. Click and
> drag to move it around.
> http://www.backspaces.net/files/play/
> It uses a special renderer, P3D, written entirely in Java. When
> doing development or deploying as applications, a much faster OPENGL
> renderer is available using the JOGL Java-OpenGL bindings.
>
> -- Owen
>
> Owen Densmore
> http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>

Tom Johnson

Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere

Steve:

Think you can get Dan Aykroyd to be your spokesman in the infomercials?

What is the format of the base map and how fine-grained could you get it?
That is, could we plot the amount of mail that gets dropped in all the
city's corner mailboxes and generate volume columns in a
drive-the-image-tilt-and-pan-yourself mode?

-tom

On 1/10/06, Stephen Guerin <stephen.guerin at redfish.com> wrote:

>
> Very cool, Owen!
>
> As a backdrop to Owen and my discussions, we're taking this week to
> explore
> alternative visualization tools for InfoVis and ABM visualization.
> Processing is
> a strong contender especially when applet deployment is an issue.
>
> I've been looking at Blender (http://www.blender3d.org), the open source,
> cross
> platform maya-like 3D environment that is python scriptable, does nice
> offline
> ray-traced renderings and has a deployable Windows/Mac/Linux game engine.
> If we
> can turn it into a decent ABM/visualization platform, we may call the
> agents
> frogs instead of turtles...ie "Frogs in a Blender" ;-)
>
> Here's a quicktime of a similar earth vis experiment that's importing data
> for
> the size and color of city columns from a CSV file.
> http://www.redfish.com/research/GEEarth_compressed640.mov
>
> -Steve
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> stephen.guerin at redfish.com
> http://www.redfish.com
> 624 Agua Fria Street, Santa Fe, NM 87501
> Santa Fe, NM (505)995-0206 / London, UK +44 (0) 20 7993 4769
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Owen Densmore [mailto:owen at backspaces.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 5:14 PM
> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Friam
> > Subject: [FRIAM] Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere
> >
> >
> > Roger Critchlow gave an excellent talk a few weeks ago which included
> > implementing a model in several software frameworks: Repast, Netlogo,
> > Starlogo, and Processing.
> >
> > Processing is a very interesting 2D/3D system written in Java.
> > http://www.processing.org/
> > It has many of the features we love about Netlogo .. one of which is
> > being able to deploy the program in an applet. Our interest is to
> > consider it for ABM in cases where good rendering and 3D is needed.
> > And its quite fast .. it preprocesses into Java and compiles on the
> > fly, so is running standard Java rather than interpreting like Netlogo.
> >
> > Processing has several features that are appealing:
> > - Nice built-in IDE
> > - Simplified Java use by IDE including auto compilation.
> > - Simple conventions for "setup" and "draw" loop like netlogo
> > - Good conventions for data inclusion (maps, xml etc)
> > - Great deployment features: as an applet, or as an application.
> > (It creates three app bundles: Linux, Mac, Windows.)
> > - Reasonable documentation and examples, nicely laid out and web
> > available.
> > - A very active community
> > It is still "beta" and we might be able to influence their future
> > directions, especially toward ease of access to all of OpenGL
> > directly, and for possibly ABM libraries.
> >
> > Here is a simple applet (well, I had to hack quite a while to get the
> > trig and coord systems right!) that shows an earth sphere. Click and
> > drag to move it around.
> > http://www.backspaces.net/files/play/
> > It uses a special renderer, P3D, written entirely in Java. When
> > doing development or deploying as applications, a much faster OPENGL
> > renderer is available using the JOGL Java-OpenGL bindings.
> >
> > -- Owen
> >
> > Owen Densmore
> > http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> >
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

--
==============================================
J. T. Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism
www.analyticjournalism.com
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
http://www.jtjohnson.com tom at jtjohnson.com

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the
existing model obsolete."
-- Buckminster Fuller
==============================================
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Stephen Guerin

Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere

> Think you can get Dan Aykroyd to be your spokesman in the infomercials?

hmm...looks like Dan is available: :-)
http://www.allamericanspeakers.com/newspeakerbio/946/index.php

> What is the format of the base map and how fine-grained could you get it?

I pulled a low-resolution version of the base map from here:
http://www.space-graphics.com/

There's a version there that is 16384x8192 pixel with 16-bit color - size
39.4Mb. That's pretty nice! I have a downloaded version if you have trouble
getting it.

> That is, could we
> plot the amount of mail that gets dropped in all the city's corner mailboxes
and
> generate volume columns in a drive-the-image-tilt-and-pan-yourself mode?

Yes, that would be pretty easy to do. We would use the game engine of Blender
for the realtime rendering and interactivity instead of the offline rendering
like you saw in the quicktime. Or Processing would be an option. The maps could
be from pretty much any source. Only when they need to wrap the whole sphere
would need to be the right projection. But if you're down at the city level, I
would think most projections would be fine. We could dynamically load them from
a URL or from a database as the user zooms in for more detail much like
GoogleEarth does. The only trick would be to get the registrations of the maps
to line up.

If you don't want to go the custom route, you could pretty much do the mailbox
volume graphing with GoogleEarth Pro or ESRI 3D Analyst. Both would handle this
without much tweaking.

-Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: J T Johnson [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere

Steve:

Think you can get Dan Aykroyd to be your spokesman in the infomercials?

What is the format of the base map and how fine-grained could you get it? That
is, could we plot the amount of mail that gets dropped in all the city's corner
mailboxes and generate volume columns in a drive-the-image-tilt-and-pan-yourself
mode?

-tom

On 1/10/06, Stephen Guerin <stephen.guerin at redfish.com> wrote:
Very cool, Owen!

As a backdrop to Owen and my discussions, we're taking this week to explore
alternative visualization tools for InfoVis and ABM visualization. Processing is
a strong contender especially when applet deployment is an issue.

I've been looking at Blender (http://www.blender3d.org), the open source, cross
platform maya-like 3D environment that is python scriptable, does nice offline
ray-traced renderings and has a deployable Windows/Mac/Linux game engine. If we
can turn it into a decent ABM/visualization platform, we may call the agents
frogs instead of turtles...ie "Frogs in a Blender" ;-)

Here's a quicktime of a similar earth vis experiment that's importing data for
the size and color of city columns from a CSV file.
http://www.redfish.com/research/GEEarth_compressed640.mov

-Steve

______________________________________________________________
stephen.guerin at redfish.com
http://www.redfish.com
624 Agua Fria Street, Santa Fe, NM 87501
Santa Fe, NM (505)995-0206 / London, UK +44 (0) 20 7993 4769

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
==============================================
J. T. Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism
www.analyticjournalism.com
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
http://www.jtjohnson.com tom at jtjohnson.com

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the
existing model obsolete."
-- Buckminster Fuller
==============================================

Tom Johnson

Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere

Yeah, I was thinking of the ESRI product, and wondering if your solution had
advantages beyond low-cost.

-t

On 1/10/06, Stephen Guerin <stephen.guerin at redfish.com> wrote:

>
> > Think you can get Dan Aykroyd to be your spokesman in the infomercials?
>
> hmm...looks like Dan is available: :-)
> http://www.allamericanspeakers.com/newspeakerbio/946/index.php
>
> > What is the format of the base map and how fine-grained could you get
> it?
>
> I pulled a low-resolution version of the base map from here:
> http://www.space-graphics.com/
>
> There's a version there that is 16384x8192 pixel with 16-bit color - size
> 39.4Mb. That's pretty nice! I have a downloaded version if you have
> trouble
> getting it.
>
>
> > That is, could we
> > plot the amount of mail that gets dropped in all the city's corner
> mailboxes
> and
> > generate volume columns in a drive-the-image-tilt-and-pan-yourself mode?
>
> Yes, that would be pretty easy to do. We would use the game engine of
> Blender
> for the realtime rendering and interactivity instead of the offline
> rendering
> like you saw in the quicktime. Or Processing would be an option. The maps
> could
> be from pretty much any source. Only when they need to wrap the whole
> sphere
> would need to be the right projection. But if you're down at the city
> level, I
> would think most projections would be fine. We could dynamically load them
> from
> a URL or from a database as the user zooms in for more detail much like
> GoogleEarth does. The only trick would be to get the registrations of the
> maps
> to line up.
>
> If you don't want to go the custom route, you could pretty much do the
> mailbox
> volume graphing with GoogleEarth Pro or ESRI 3D Analyst. Both would handle
> this
> without much tweaking.
>
> -Steve
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: J T Johnson [mailto:tom at jtjohnson.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 9:04 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere
>
>
> Steve:
>
> Think you can get Dan Aykroyd to be your spokesman in the infomercials?
>
> What is the format of the base map and how fine-grained could you get
> it? That
> is, could we plot the amount of mail that gets dropped in all the city's
> corner
> mailboxes and generate volume columns in a
> drive-the-image-tilt-and-pan-yourself
> mode?
>
> -tom
>
>
> On 1/10/06, Stephen Guerin <stephen.guerin at redfish.com> wrote:
> Very cool, Owen!
>
> As a backdrop to Owen and my discussions, we're taking this week to
> explore
> alternative visualization tools for InfoVis and ABM visualization.
> Processing is
> a strong contender especially when applet deployment is an issue.
>
> I've been looking at Blender (http://www.blender3d.org), the open source,
> cross
> platform maya-like 3D environment that is python scriptable, does nice
> offline
> ray-traced renderings and has a deployable Windows/Mac/Linux game engine.
> If we
> can turn it into a decent ABM/visualization platform, we may call the
> agents
> frogs instead of turtles...ie "Frogs in a Blender" ;-)
>
> Here's a quicktime of a similar earth vis experiment that's importing data
> for
> the size and color of city columns from a CSV file.
> http://www.redfish.com/research/GEEarth_compressed640.mov
>
> -Steve
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> stephen.guerin at redfish.com
> http://www.redfish.com
> 624 Agua Fria Street, Santa Fe, NM 87501
> Santa Fe, NM (505)995-0206 / London, UK +44 (0) 20 7993 4769
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Owen Densmore [mailto:owen at backspaces.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 5:14 PM
> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Friam
> > Subject: [FRIAM] Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere
> >
> >
> > Roger Critchlow gave an excellent talk a few weeks ago which included
> > implementing a model in several software frameworks: Repast, Netlogo,
> > Starlogo, and Processing.
> >
> > Processing is a very interesting 2D/3D system written in Java.
> > http://www.processing.org/
> > It has many of the features we love about Netlogo .. one of which is
> > being able to deploy the program in an applet. Our interest is to
> > consider it for ABM in cases where good rendering and 3D is needed.
> > And its quite fast .. it preprocesses into Java and compiles on the
> > fly, so is running standard Java rather than interpreting like Netlogo.
> >
> > Processing has several features that are appealing:
> > - Nice built-in IDE
> > - Simplified Java use by IDE including auto compilation.
> > - Simple conventions for "setup" and "draw" loop like netlogo
> > - Good conventions for data inclusion (maps, xml etc)
> > - Great deployment features: as an applet, or as an application.
> > (It creates three app bundles: Linux, Mac, Windows.)
> > - Reasonable documentation and examples, nicely laid out and web
> > available.
> > - A very active community
> > It is still "beta" and we might be able to influence their future
> > directions, especially toward ease of access to all of OpenGL
> > directly, and for possibly ABM libraries.
> >
> > Here is a simple applet (well, I had to hack quite a while to get the
> > trig and coord systems right!) that shows an earth sphere. Click and
> > drag to move it around.
> > http://www.backspaces.net/files/play/
> > It uses a special renderer, P3D, written entirely in Java. When
> > doing development or deploying as applications, a much faster OPENGL
> > renderer is available using the JOGL Java-OpenGL bindings.
> >
> > -- Owen
> >
> > Owen Densmore
> > http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> >
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
>
>
> --
> ==============================================
> J. T. Johnson
> Institute for Analytic Journalism
> www.analyticjournalism.com
> 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
> http://www.jtjohnson.com tom at jtjohnson.com
>
> "You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
> To change something, build a new model that makes the
> existing model obsolete."
> -- Buckminster Fuller
> ==============================================
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

Stephen Guerin

Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere

> Yeah, I was thinking of the ESRI product, and wondering if your solution had
advantages beyond low-cost.

The big advantage for us is being able to make a deployable application where
the end-user doesn't have to fork over $1500 or more just to run our stuff.
Another advantage is having the ability to modify geometry on the fly which you
can't do in ESRI or GoogleEarth.

Martin C. Martin

Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere

In reply to this post by Stephen Guerin

Hi Stephen,

The movie of the earth vis experiment, with the size & color of city
columns, is very cool. How was it done? In Blender? The filename
starts "GEEarth," so I'm wondering if it's some Google Earth mashup?

Best,
Martin

Stephen Guerin wrote:

> Very cool, Owen!
>
> As a backdrop to Owen and my discussions, we're taking this week to explore
> alternative visualization tools for InfoVis and ABM visualization. Processing is
> a strong contender especially when applet deployment is an issue.
>
> I've been looking at Blender (http://www.blender3d.org), the open source, cross
> platform maya-like 3D environment that is python scriptable, does nice offline
> ray-traced renderings and has a deployable Windows/Mac/Linux game engine. If we
> can turn it into a decent ABM/visualization platform, we may call the agents
> frogs instead of turtles...ie "Frogs in a Blender" ;-)
>
> Here's a quicktime of a similar earth vis experiment that's importing data for
> the size and color of city columns from a CSV file.
> http://www.redfish.com/research/GEEarth_compressed640.mov
>
> -Steve
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> stephen.guerin at redfish.com
> http://www.redfish.com
> 624 Agua Fria Street, Santa Fe, NM 87501
> Santa Fe, NM (505)995-0206 / London, UK +44 (0) 20 7993 4769
>
>
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Owen Densmore [mailto:owen at backspaces.net]
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 5:14 PM
>>To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Friam
>>Subject: [FRIAM] Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere
>>
>>
>>Roger Critchlow gave an excellent talk a few weeks ago which included
>>implementing a model in several software frameworks: Repast, Netlogo,
>>Starlogo, and Processing.
>>
>>Processing is a very interesting 2D/3D system written in Java.
>> http://www.processing.org/
>>It has many of the features we love about Netlogo .. one of which is
>>being able to deploy the program in an applet. Our interest is to
>>consider it for ABM in cases where good rendering and 3D is needed.
>>And its quite fast .. it preprocesses into Java and compiles on the
>>fly, so is running standard Java rather than interpreting like Netlogo.
>>
>>Processing has several features that are appealing:
>> - Nice built-in IDE
>> - Simplified Java use by IDE including auto compilation.
>> - Simple conventions for "setup" and "draw" loop like netlogo
>> - Good conventions for data inclusion (maps, xml etc)
>> - Great deployment features: as an applet, or as an application.
>> (It creates three app bundles: Linux, Mac, Windows.)
>> - Reasonable documentation and examples, nicely laid out and web
>>available.
>> - A very active community
>>It is still "beta" and we might be able to influence their future
>>directions, especially toward ease of access to all of OpenGL
>>directly, and for possibly ABM libraries.
>>
>>Here is a simple applet (well, I had to hack quite a while to get the
>>trig and coord systems right!) that shows an earth sphere. Click and
>>drag to move it around.
>> http://www.backspaces.net/files/play/
>>It uses a special renderer, P3D, written entirely in Java. When
>>doing development or deploying as applications, a much faster OPENGL
>>renderer is available using the JOGL Java-OpenGL bindings.
>>
>> -- Owen
>>
>>Owen Densmore
>>http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org
>>
>>
>>
>>============================================================
>>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
>>lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Stephen Guerin

Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere

> The movie of the earth vis experiment, with the size & color of city
> columns, is very cool. How was it done? In Blender? The filename
> starts "GEEarth," so I'm wondering if it's some Google Earth mashup?

Thanks. Nope, no mashup -- we weren't loading Google Earth imagery on the
fly...though Google Earth was the inspiration for this vis and we could see
using Google Earth as a data source in the future. The "GE" bit in the file name
was the client.

Yes, it was done in Blender using Python to generate the cylinders and to
convert Lat/Long of cities to x,y,z locations for cylinder placements.

-Steve

Martin C. Martin-2

Processing applet: 3D Earth Sphere

Cool! Where'd you get the map data? Did the client have it/pay for it?
You do a great zoom on Osaka; is that the only city you have detailed
info for?

And more importantly: does Blender handle the LOD for you?

I've been looking at Processing, and it seems that it's more for
animation/visualization than simulation. By that I mean to processing
the screen is just a bitmap, not a collection of objects; so if you want
to find out what object the user is clicking on, your program needs to
figure it out.

Blender seems much more high level, where blender knows about the
location, extent and other properties of the objects its rendering.
This seems like a huge difference.

Best,
Martin

Stephen Guerin wrote:

>>The movie of the earth vis experiment, with the size & color of city
>>columns, is very cool. How was it done? In Blender? The filename
>>starts "GEEarth," so I'm wondering if it's some Google Earth mashup?
>
>
> Thanks. Nope, no mashup -- we weren't loading Google Earth imagery on the
> fly...though Google Earth was the inspiration for this vis and we could see
> using Google Earth as a data source in the future. The "GE" bit in the file name
> was the client.
>
> Yes, it was done in Blender using Python to generate the cylinders and to
> convert Lat/Long of cities to x,y,z locations for cylinder placements.
>
> -Steve
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org