Friam

Privacy vs Open Public Data

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Douglas Roberts-2

Re: FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

No, not a chance. Information theory does not allow for this. You can't de-compile object code back into it's original language.

--Doug

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

This one of those moments in my life with FRIAM that I live for. A series of communications in which I have not an effing clue what any of you are talking about.

Some of you have, in the past, been good at doing translations between Thompson-speak and the worst excesses of Friam=speak. Can anybody translate in the other direction?

N

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:43 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

Redux:

Apologies to ...
well...
ALL of you, but Doug in particular!

and special thanks to Josh for the inspiration.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Nick Thompson

Re: Privacy vs Open Public Data

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Doug,

This is exactly the problem. Am I to become an agency of punishment? Am I to become a vector of Evil? Choose One. Quickly, please. Has anybody read the Scarlet Letter recently? N

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 10:37 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Privacy vs Open Public Data

I recently accidentally discovered that a musician friend of mine was a registered sex offender of little girls. I discovered this while using Google to find his phone number to arrange a gig.

Talk about feeling conflicted.

--Doug

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 10:34 AM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Marcus,

Have a look in the new New Yorker about the article on the new civil commitment laws re sexual deviants.

I can both not want these folks living down the block AND be horrified by what We The People are doing to them. It is the luxury of liberalism to be ambivalent.

It’s all very VERY hard.

Nick

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus G. Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 1:36 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Privacy vs Open Public Data

On 1/15/13 10:54 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Who do we become when we do not respect the boundaries of others? Who are we as a society when we allow or encourage others to transgress? I understand the arguments for Law Enforcement and Intelligence and Security *wanting* to spy on people freely... to restrict the use of cryptography, etc. but they don't outweigh the risk of who we become when we do these things.

When a person visits the doctor, information shared is privileged. If the doctor does not treat it as such, the doctor's career is put at risk. It's a good incentive to keep quiet.

So imagine a world in which brain scans become much more sophisticated, and that certain dangerous mental health problems could be diagnosed with high accuracy, and also treated. Because of fear of mass shootings, etc., Americans make it law that scans be done on all, and that appropriate treatments be employed. For the sake of argument, suppose it's all handled methodically and in a secure fashion.

Should we expect that the therapists and psychiatrists involved in this hypothetical process would suffer themselves for not respecting boundaries of individuals' psychological spaces? In current practice they would be invited inside the boundary by the patient and so presumably that's different. I think it is an adjustment health providers would make without much trouble. It would be a professional analytical activity.

Marcus

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Privacy vs Open Public Data

Doug wrote:

> I recently accidentally discovered that a musician friend of mine was
a registered sex offender of little girls.

On 1/16/13 10:58 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> This is exactly the problem. Am I to become an agency of
punishment? Am I to become a vector of Evil?
> Choose One. Quickly, please.

You guys sound like Jeffrey Beaumont in the film Blue Velvet.. :-)

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Parks, Raymond

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Privacy vs Open Public Data

In reply to this post by Eric Charles

<base href="x-msg://671/"> Social structures work because we don't have to always be completely truthful. "White lies" grease the gears of society. Bruce points out that Japanese society engages in the illusion of privacy - western societies do that, also. I'm not talking only about "That outfit doesn't make you look fat". I'm also talking about simple things like shopping at a store that competes with your friend's store or seeing a doctor not your primary care provider for a second opinion. Some folks can do these things boldly and without caring about hurting someone's feelings. Most folks prefer discretion and no hurt feelings.

If your PCP or store-owner friend can easily find out that you've been straying, their feelings will be hurt doubly - because you didn't trust them or preferred a better price and because you did it "behind their back". There's no shame or guilt to what you've done - but society runs smoother if there are no hurt feelings, also.

Ray Parks

Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager

V: 505-844-4024 M: 505-238-9359 P: 505-951-6084

NIPR: [hidden email]

SIPR: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder)

JWICS: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder)

On Jan 15, 2013, at 9:40 PM, Eric Charles wrote:

Nick,
I have struggled with parts of this quite a bit. As you know, I am a somewhat-crazy Libertarian, and so get stuck in conversations like this on a fairly regular basis. In particular, I reject the idea that privacy is primarily about protecting people from shame or guilt. I believe that privacy (of a certain sort) is a basic right that is essential to a free society. Alas, it is difficult to explain why, as whenever I assert the right to not have certain information public, whomever is on the other side of the argument immediately tries to back me into a corner of being ashamed of whatever it is I want to keep private. There are a few things in my life I am indeed ashamed of, but very few, and I would probably tell most of them to anyone who asked. On the other hand, there are many things that I would like to keep private, and would probably not tell anyone who asked. How to explain the difference?

The best I can say, I think, is that I see the right to (mostly) privacy as inextricably linked to the right to (mostly) self-determination. Whether people should have the latter right is certainly up for debate, but I think it has been a cornerstone of US culture through most of US history. At the least, it has been a cornerstone of our social myth structure (for sure if you were a white male, off and on for other groups). The idea that one could get a "fresh start" in America motivated many an immigrant... and part of getting a fresh start was people not knowing everything about you that those you were leaving knew. The mythic Old West was also largely based on such a principle.

The ability to control (to some extent) what people know about you is often key to achieving goals (or at least it seems that way). Imagine for example, the otherwise charismatic man with "a face made for radio." He might or might not be ashamed of his looks, but either way he has an interest in keeping his face (mostly) private until his career is sufficiently established. To put it in a more Victorian tone: There are certain things, we need not say which, that I am not ashamed of, and yet it would be inconvenient if they came out. Of those things we shan't speak, and it should be my prerogative to protect them as I see fit against the inquiries of others.

----------

To complicate your inquiry, one of the big legal issues in the fight you see brewing is this: Most of the new slush of public information you are concerned with is put out their voluntarily. The GPS in your phone turns on and off (and if not, you could get a different phone). Your posts, emails, blog entries, online photos, etc. are all being made public intentionally. Those software and website user agreements few ever reads often include consents to use your data in various ways, including making parts public.

The old ideas of stalking, I think, mostly involved the accumulation of data against the will of the "victim", and could potentially include the gathering of both private and technically public information (i.e., court records). I don't know how you could make a legal case against someone who only knew things about you that you intentionally threw out into the world for the purpose of people knowing it. If you wander around town everyday without clothes on, it would be hard to accuse someone of being a "peeping Tom" just because they saw you naked.

Eric

--------
Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State, Altoona

From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 2:45:52 PM
Subject: [FRIAM] Privacy vs Open Public Data

Dear all,

We had a discussion last Friday at Friam that I would like to see continued here. Many of us had seen a recent talk in which somebody was using satellite imagery to track an individual through his day. The resolution of such imagery is now down to 20 cm, and that is before processing. We stipulated (not sure it's true in NM) that if I were to follow one of you around for week, never intruding into your private space, but tagging along after you everywhere you went and patiently recording your every public act, that I could eventually be thrown in jail for stalking. We tried to decide what the law should say about assembling public data to create a record of the moment by moment activities of an individual. We suspected that nothing in law would forbid that kind of surveillance, but it made some of us uneasy. So much of what we take to be our private lives, is, after all, just a way of organizing public data.

We then wondered what justified any kind of privacy law. If everybody were honest, the cameras would reveal nothing that everybody would not be happy to have known? Were not privacy concerns proof of guilt? No, we concluded: they might be proof of SHAME, but shame and guilt are not the same, and the law, per se, is not in the business of punishing SHAME.

I thought our discussion was interesting for its combination of technological sophistication and legal naiveté. (In short, we needed a lawyer) In the end I concluded that, as more and more public data is put on line and more and more sophisticated data mining techniques are deployed, there will come a time when a category of cyber-stalking might have to be identified which involves using public data to track and aggregate in detail the movements of a particular individual. Do we have an opinion on this?

We will now be at St. Johns for the foreseeable future.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Steve Smith

Re: FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

On 1/16/13 10:44 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

This one of those moments in my life with FRIAM that I live for. A series of communications in which I have not an effing clue what any of you are talking about.

Some of you have, in the past, been good at doing translations between Thompson-speak and the worst excesses of Friam=speak. Can anybody translate in the other direction?

Maybe I will try my hand at putting the discussions you initiated about whirlpools into this form?

The conversation rendered, despite being littered with model and brand names, technological acronyms and such was really about our human interface to an inhuman system. I thought that part was obvious even if you don't know what WIFI, PERL, Android, or Nexus 4 refer to?

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Eric Charles

Re: FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick,
It is a distillation / satire of several of the threads that I only skimmed briefly over the past few months. Doug and others have all been working no installing linux (the penguin) on various phones, as well as dealing with various aspects of Google's android operating system. On a related note, some companies have recently gotten into the habit of calling what is clearly a bug in their program a "feature", so as to try to avoid bad press / any obligation to fix it quickly and efficiently. On a related note, companies try not to admit something is a bug unless a lot of people have complained about it, which leads to weird conflicts where the company (probably lying) tries to deny it has heard about problems that people have been reporting left and right all over the web. Oh, and apparently some people think they can pester these companies into doing the right thing.

Beyond that, it is at least as coherent as most Zippy comics.

Eric

--------
Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State, Altoona

From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:44:19 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

This one of those moments in my life with FRIAM that I live for. A series of communications in which I have not an effing clue what any of you are talking about.

Some of you have, in the past, been good at doing translations between Thompson-speak and the worst excesses of Friam=speak. Can anybody translate in the other direction?

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:43 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

Redux:

Apologies to ...
well...
ALL of you, but Doug in particular!
and special thanks to Josh for the inspiration.

Nick Thompson

Re: FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

Eric,

THANK you for the helpful exegesis.

Nick

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 2:44 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

--------
Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State, Altoona

This one of those moments in my life with FRIAM that I live for. A series of communications in which I have not an effing clue what any of you are talking about.

Some of you have, in the past, been good at doing translations between Thompson-speak and the worst excesses of Friam=speak. Can anybody translate in the other direction?

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:43 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

Redux:

Apologies to ...
well...
ALL of you, but Doug in particular!
and special thanks to Josh for the inspiration.

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

In reply to this post by Eric Charles

Couldn't have said it better myself.

--Doug

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick,
It is a distillation / satire of several of the threads that I only skimmed briefly over the past few months. Doug and others have all been working no installing linux (the penguin) on various phones, as well as dealing with various aspects of Google's android operating system. On a related note, some companies have recently gotten into the habit of calling what is clearly a bug in their program a "feature", so as to try to avoid bad press / any obligation to fix it quickly and efficiently. On a related note, companies try not to admit something is a bug unless a lot of people have complained about it, which leads to weird conflicts where the company (probably lying) tries to deny it has heard about problems that people have been reporting left and right all over the web. Oh, and apparently some people think they can pester these companies into doing the right thing.

Beyond that, it is at least as coherent as most Zippy comics.

Eric

--------
Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State, Altoona

From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:44:19 PM

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

This one of those moments in my life with FRIAM that I live for. A series of communications in which I have not an effing clue what any of you are talking about.

Some of you have, in the past, been good at doing translations between Thompson-speak and the worst excesses of Friam=speak. Can anybody translate in the other direction?

N

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:43 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

Redux:

Apologies to ...
well...
ALL of you, but Doug in particular!
and special thanks to Josh for the inspiration.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

Nick Thompson

Re: Privacy vs Open Public Data

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

M-
Please explain.
N

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus G.
Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:54 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Privacy vs Open Public Data

Doug wrote:

> I recently accidentally discovered that a musician friend of mine was a
registered sex offender of little girls.

On 1/16/13 10:58 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> This is exactly the problem. Am I to become an agency of punishment? Am
I to become a vector of Evil?
> Choose One. Quickly, please.

You guys sound like Jeffrey Beaumont in the film Blue Velvet.. :-)

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Nick Thompson

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Privacy vs Open Public Data

In reply to this post by Parks, Raymond

Raymond,

I guess I am a behaviorist about shame. If my behavior makes me blush than it was shameful. Guilt, on the other hand is something the law determines. Just my way of talking, I guess.

But why do petty lies grease the wheels of society. What lies behind that confident assertion?

Nick

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Parks, Raymond
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 1:03 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: Privacy vs Open Public Data

Social structures work because we don't have to always be completely truthful. "White lies" grease the gears of society. Bruce points out that Japanese society engages in the illusion of privacy - western societies do that, also. I'm not talking only about "That outfit doesn't make you look fat". I'm also talking about simple things like shopping at a store that competes with your friend's store or seeing a doctor not your primary care provider for a second opinion. Some folks can do these things boldly and without caring about hurting someone's feelings. Most folks prefer discretion and no hurt feelings.

Ray Parks

Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager

V: 505-844-4024 M: 505-238-9359 P: 505-951-6084

NIPR: [hidden email]

SIPR: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder)

JWICS: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder)

On Jan 15, 2013, at 9:40 PM, Eric Charles wrote:

Nick,
I have struggled with parts of this quite a bit. As you know, I am a somewhat-crazy Libertarian, and so get stuck in conversations like this on a fairly regular basis. In particular, I reject the idea that privacy is primarily about protecting people from shame or guilt. I believe that privacy (of a certain sort) is a basic right that is essential to a free society. Alas, it is difficult to explain why, as whenever I assert the right to not have certain information public, whomever is on the other side of the argument immediately tries to back me into a corner of being ashamed of whatever it is I want to keep private. There are a few things in my life I am indeed ashamed of, but very few, and I would probably tell most of them to anyone who asked. On the other hand, there are many things that I would like to keep private, and would probably not tell anyone who asked. How to explain the difference?

The best I can say, I think, is that I see the right to (mostly) privacy as inextricably linked to the right to (mostly) self-determination. Whether people should have the latter right is certainly up for debate, but I think it has been a cornerstone of US culture through most of US history. At the least, it has been a cornerstone of our social myth structure (for sure if you were a white male, off and on for other groups). The idea that one could get a "fresh start" in America motivated many an immigrant... and part of getting a fresh start was people not knowing everything about you that those you were leaving knew. The mythic Old West was also largely based on such a principle.

The ability to control (to some extent) what people know about you is often key to achieving goals (or at least it seems that way). Imagine for example, the otherwise charismatic man with "a face made for radio." He might or might not be ashamed of his looks, but either way he has an interest in keeping his face (mostly) private until his career is sufficiently established. To put it in a more Victorian tone: There are certain things, we need not say which, that I am not ashamed of, and yet it would be inconvenient if they came out. Of those things we shan't speak, and it should be my prerogative to protect them as I see fit against the inquiries of others.

----------

To complicate your inquiry, one of the big legal issues in the fight you see brewing is this: Most of the new slush of public information you are concerned with is put out their voluntarily. The GPS in your phone turns on and off (and if not, you could get a different phone). Your posts, emails, blog entries, online photos, etc. are all being made public intentionally. Those software and website user agreements few ever reads often include consents to use your data in various ways, including making parts public.

The old ideas of stalking, I think, mostly involved the accumulation of data against the will of the "victim", and could potentially include the gathering of both private and technically public information (i.e., court records). I don't know how you could make a legal case against someone who only knew things about you that you intentionally threw out into the world for the purpose of people knowing it. If you wander around town everyday without clothes on, it would be hard to accuse someone of being a "peeping Tom" just because they saw you naked.

Eric

--------
Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State, Altoona

From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 2:45:52 PM
Subject: [FRIAM] Privacy vs Open Public Data

Dear all,

We had a discussion last Friday at Friam that I would like to see continued here. Many of us had seen a recent talk in which somebody was using satellite imagery to track an individual through his day. The resolution of such imagery is now down to 20 cm, and that is before processing. We stipulated (not sure it's true in NM) that if I were to follow one of you around for week, never intruding into your private space, but tagging along after you everywhere you went and patiently recording your every public act, that I could eventually be thrown in jail for stalking. We tried to decide what the law should say about assembling public data to create a record of the moment by moment activities of an individual. We suspected that nothing in law would forbid that kind of surveillance, but it made some of us uneasy. So much of what we take to be our private lives, is, after all, just a way of organizing public data.

We then wondered what justified any kind of privacy law. If everybody were honest, the cameras would reveal nothing that everybody would not be happy to have known? Were not privacy concerns proof of guilt? No, we concluded: they might be proof of SHAME, but shame and guilt are not the same, and the law, per se, is not in the business of punishing SHAME.

I thought our discussion was interesting for its combination of technological sophistication and legal naiveté. (In short, we needed a lawyer) In the end I concluded that, as more and more public data is put on line and more and more sophisticated data mining techniques are deployed, there will come a time when a category of cyber-stalking might have to be identified which involves using public data to track and aggregate in detail the movements of a particular individual. Do we have an opinion on this?

We will now be at St. Johns for the foreseeable future.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

http://www.cusf.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Privacy vs Open Public Data

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Marcus,

I had to look up the Blue Velvet reference, and I still only get the gist. However, I've grown to love practically anything that David Lynch had a hand it, so I've now added Blue Velvet to my reading list.

--Doug

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Marcus G. Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Doug wrote:

> I recently accidentally discovered that a musician friend of mine was a registered sex offender of little girls.

On 1/16/13 10:58 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> This is exactly the problem. Am I to become an agency of punishment? Am I to become a vector of Evil?
> Choose One. Quickly, please.

You guys sound like Jeffrey Beaumont in the film Blue Velvet.. :-)

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

Nick Thompson

Re: Privacy vs Open Public Data

Hmmmm! This is turning into one of those FRIAM conversations that misses the point. Thompson raises an ethical issue; Roberts provides a very precise and personal example of the quandary. The basic conditions for a really great discussion have been realized. But then a third party makes fun of the conversation. And everybody else gets off scott free.

Makes me grumpy.

Marcus. Let it be the case that you have friends who have young daughters. Let it be the case that a new-comer to town whom you have started to befriend turns out to be a registered offender. (I.E., you have public knowledge of this person which, however, most people don’t know.) What is your obligation in regard to this information? What about the blossoming friendship?

Nick

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 3:05 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Privacy vs Open Public Data

Marcus,

--Doug

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Marcus G. Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Doug wrote:

> I recently accidentally discovered that a musician friend of mine was a registered sex offender of little girls.

On 1/16/13 10:58 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> This is exactly the problem. Am I to become an agency of punishment? Am I to become a vector of Evil?
> Choose One. Quickly, please.

You guys sound like Jeffrey Beaumont in the film Blue Velvet.. :-)

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

However, Nick if full understanding on this issue is what you really and truly desire, then you need to read each of the following IN STRICT ORDER:

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2012/12/issues-with-google-nexus-4-phone.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/do-not-write-on-board.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/its-feature.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-good.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/have-nice-day.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/pester-power.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/has-google-become-institution-bound.html <-- this one got published in an on-line journal with largish circulation

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/it-was-known-issue.html

which brings us eventually to

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-google-narcoleptic-4-phone.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-beat-goes-on.html

and finally

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/400000-lemons.html

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

Couldn't have said it better myself.

--Doug

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick,
It is a distillation / satire of several of the threads that I only skimmed briefly over the past few months. Doug and others have all been working no installing linux (the penguin) on various phones, as well as dealing with various aspects of Google's android operating system. On a related note, some companies have recently gotten into the habit of calling what is clearly a bug in their program a "feature", so as to try to avoid bad press / any obligation to fix it quickly and efficiently. On a related note, companies try not to admit something is a bug unless a lot of people have complained about it, which leads to weird conflicts where the company (probably lying) tries to deny it has heard about problems that people have been reporting left and right all over the web. Oh, and apparently some people think they can pester these companies into doing the right thing.

Beyond that, it is at least as coherent as most Zippy comics.

Eric

--------
Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State, Altoona

From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:44:19 PM

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

This one of those moments in my life with FRIAM that I live for. A series of communications in which I have not an effing clue what any of you are talking about.

Some of you have, in the past, been good at doing translations between Thompson-speak and the worst excesses of Friam=speak. Can anybody translate in the other direction?

N

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:43 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

Redux:

Apologies to ...
well...
ALL of you, but Doug in particular!
and special thanks to Josh for the inspiration.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" value="+15056728213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Privacy vs Open Public Data

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

On 1/16/13 3:56 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> Makes me grumpy.

Poor you. It is not surprising that criminals, deviants, and unstable humiliated people populate every community. There is inequity in the world. If people can't find a purpose or acceptable identity in their lives, then drug & sex addiction, magical thinking, and exploitation of others provide some pleasure and sense of control. Meanwhile, it also should not come as any surprise that individuals in a society can learn how to play along and give the appearance of `normal'. The popular use of the Internet simply brings a little more in to the light what was always there: Lots and lots of troubled and mentally-ill people. It's important to make people look at it.

Marcus

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Privacy vs Open Public Data

Ah, a breath of fresh air. I'm afraid we're going to ask you to leave, Marcus.

--Doug

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Marcus G. Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 1/16/13 3:56 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> Makes me grumpy.

Poor you. It is not surprising that criminals, deviants, and unstable humiliated people populate every community. There is inequity in the world. If people can't find a purpose or acceptable identity in their lives, then drug & sex addiction, magical thinking, and exploitation of others provide some pleasure and sense of control. Meanwhile, it also should not come as any surprise that individuals in a society can learn how to play along and give the appearance of `normal'. The popular use of the Internet simply brings a little more in to the light what was always there: Lots and lots of troubled and mentally-ill people. It's important to make people look at it.

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

Parks, Raymond

Re: [EXTERNAL] Privacy vs Open Public Data

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

Full motion video is possible, but not for long as it uses a lot of bandwidth and storage. Also, the geometry of satellites is such that, depending upon their orbit, they can only provide good images of a single point on the ground for a limited amount of time. More likely, if a particular human can be identified (unlikely from space), one could use a sort of time-based synthetic aperture to build up knowledge of that person's activities. UAVs are much more likely to be used to track a particular individual in real-time.

Ray Parks

Consilient Heuristician/IDART Program Manager

V: 505-844-4024 M: 505-238-9359 P: 505-951-6084

NIPR: [hidden email]

SIPR: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder)

JWICS: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder)

On Jan 16, 2013, at 9:19 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:

Re: satellites: they have very high resolution but I'm not sure they have a high frame rate .. ie could "track" an individual.

-- Owen
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Joshua Thorp

Re: FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

lol

On Jan 16, 2013, at 2:49 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

Couldn't have said it better myself.

--Doug

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick,
It is a distillation / satire of several of the threads that I only skimmed briefly over the past few months. Doug and others have all been working no installing linux (the penguin) on various phones, as well as dealing with various aspects of Google's android operating system. On a related note, some companies have recently gotten into the habit of calling what is clearly a bug in their program a "feature", so as to try to avoid bad press / any obligation to fix it quickly and efficiently. On a related note, companies try not to admit something is a bug unless a lot of people have complained about it, which leads to weird conflicts where the company (probably lying) tries to deny it has heard about problems that people have been reporting left and right all over the web. Oh, and apparently some people think they can pester these companies into doing the right thing.

Beyond that, it is at least as coherent as most Zippy comics.

Eric

--------
Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State, Altoona

From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:44:19 PM

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

This one of those moments in my life with FRIAM that I live for. A series of communications in which I have not an effing clue what any of you are talking about.

Some of you have, in the past, been good at doing translations between Thompson-speak and the worst excesses of Friam=speak. Can anybody translate in the other direction?

N

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:43 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

Redux:

<image001.jpg>
Apologies to ...
well...
ALL of you, but Doug in particular!
and special thanks to Josh for the inspiration.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Nick Thompson

Re: FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

But Doug, if I did all of that, then I would BE you. [No offense, but] I didn’t want to BE you; I just wanted to UNDERSTAND you. Actually, when I read the bio on your blog, I thought, Gee, I might like to be Doug Roberts. But that’s s different story.

Nick

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 4:02 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

However, Nick if full understanding on this issue is what you really and truly desire, then you need to read each of the following IN STRICT ORDER:

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2012/12/issues-with-google-nexus-4-phone.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/do-not-write-on-board.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/its-feature.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-good.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/have-nice-day.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/pester-power.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/has-google-become-institution-bound.html <-- this one got published in an on-line journal with largish circulation

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/it-was-known-issue.html

which brings us eventually to

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-google-narcoleptic-4-phone.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-beat-goes-on.html

and finally

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/400000-lemons.html

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

Couldn't have said it better myself.

--Doug

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

--------
Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State, Altoona

From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:44:19 PM

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

This one of those moments in my life with FRIAM that I live for. A series of communications in which I have not an effing clue what any of you are talking about.

Some of you have, in the past, been good at doing translations between Thompson-speak and the worst excesses of Friam=speak. Can anybody translate in the other direction?

Redux:

Apologies to ...
well...
ALL of you, but Doug in particular!
and special thanks to Josh for the inspiration.

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

I think I understand, Nick.

Also, I think I understand Nick.

That is to say, it's not the understanding that is the goal, it is the process of understanding that is the goal.

--Doug

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

But Doug, if I did all of that, then I would BE you. [No offense, but] I didn’t want to BE you; I just wanted to UNDERSTAND you. Actually, when I read the bio on your blog, I thought, Gee, I might like to be Doug Roberts. But that’s s different story.

Nick

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 4:02 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

However, Nick if full understanding on this issue is what you really and truly desire, then you need to read each of the following IN STRICT ORDER:

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2012/12/issues-with-google-nexus-4-phone.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/do-not-write-on-board.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/its-feature.html
http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-good.html
http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/have-nice-day.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/pester-power.html
http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/has-google-become-institution-bound.html <-- this one got published in an on-line journal with largish circulation

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/it-was-known-issue.html

which brings us eventually to
http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-google-narcoleptic-4-phone.html

http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-beat-goes-on.html
and finally
http://things-linux.blogspot.com/2013/01/400000-lemons.html

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:49 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

Couldn't have said it better myself.

--Doug

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nick,
It is a distillation / satire of several of the threads that I only skimmed briefly over the past few months. Doug and others have all been working no installing linux (the penguin) on various phones, as well as dealing with various aspects of Google's android operating system. On a related note, some companies have recently gotten into the habit of calling what is clearly a bug in their program a "feature", so as to try to avoid bad press / any obligation to fix it quickly and efficiently. On a related note, companies try not to admit something is a bug unless a lot of people have complained about it, which leads to weird conflicts where the company (probably lying) tries to deny it has heard about problems that people have been reporting left and right all over the web. Oh, and apparently some people think they can pester these companies into doing the right thing.

Beyond that, it is at least as coherent as most Zippy comics.

Eric

--------
Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State, Altoona

From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:44:19 PM

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!
This one of those moments in my life with FRIAM that I live for. A series of communications in which I have not an effing clue what any of you are talking about.

Some of you have, in the past, been good at doing translations between Thompson-speak and the worst excesses of Friam=speak. Can anybody translate in the other direction?

N

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 12:43 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM: The Comic Edition!

Redux:

Apologies to ...
well...
ALL of you, but Doug in particular!

and special thanks to Josh for the inspiration.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" value="+15056728213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

Nick Thompson

Re: Privacy vs Open Public Data

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

So, you see no problem there? There are good people and bad people. You can tell from the B tattooed on their wrist? So, lets us good people screw the bad people and get on with it. What if one of the bad people is a heluva musician? Or a great mathematician? N

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus G. Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 4:52 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Privacy vs Open Public Data

On 1/16/13 3:56 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

12345