Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

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Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Douglas Roberts-2
http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html

It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces".

--Doug

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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Pamela McCorduck
Popcorn is popped and buttered; knees are crossed in my Adirondack chair. Carry on.

P.



On Apr 22, 2013, at 7:09 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html

It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces".

--Doug

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile
============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Douglas Roberts-2
+1


On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 6:04 PM, Pamela McCorduck <[hidden email]> wrote:
Popcorn is popped and buttered; knees are crossed in my Adirondack chair. Carry on.

P.



On Apr 22, 2013, at 7:09 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html

It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces".

--Doug

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" value="+15056728213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile
============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com


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--
Doug Roberts
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505-672-8213 - Mobile

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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Douglas Roberts-2
I don't know about you, Pamela, but I've run clean out of popcorn, and I've already re-crossed my knees twice.  Truth be known, I'm particularly keen to follow the exposition on the meaning of the word "through".

Although "forces" is a close second, followed of course by "causal". 

--Doug


On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1


On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 6:04 PM, Pamela McCorduck <[hidden email]> wrote:
Popcorn is popped and buttered; knees are crossed in my Adirondack chair. Carry on.

P.



On Apr 22, 2013, at 7:09 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html

It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces".

--Doug

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" value="+15056728213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" value="+15056728213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile



--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" value="+15056728213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile

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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Stephen Guerin
In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2
Ok Troll-Boy, I'll bite.

Here's the paper referenced in the phys.org post:

Are these concepts so foreign that you hope to watch a thread thrash on the semantics and meanings of this theoretical worldview? Is there something in Hewitt's paper that strikes you as ridiculous, hogwosh or complexity babble?

The ideas in the paper restate what is obvious to many of the practitioners on this list. Namely that structure formation and origin of life may well be best understood as nature's response to imposed non-equilibrium gradients. To many this is a core idea of Complexity. This mechanism has been linked as a causal mechanism for the emergence of autonomous intelligent emergent behavior since (1980, Kugler, Kelso and Turvey), (2000 Kauffman), (2005 Jun and Hubler and 2011 Hubler et al) and (2007 Morowitz and Smith) among others.

I haven't actually seen the software "entropica" referenced in the paper and the claims may be a little over stated but the core ideas you quote "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces" are not new and strike me as matter of fact.

These same ideas have thrashed on the list almost exactly 10 years ago:

Doug, where do you think intelligent behavior (ie life) comes from? Do you have a view?  a pet theory? too busy?

--- -. .   ..-. .. ... ....   - .-- ---   ..-. .. ... ....
1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
office: (505) 995-0206 tollfree: (888) 414-3855
mobile: (505) 577-5828  fax: (505) 819-5952   
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On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html

It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces".

--Doug

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" value="+15056728213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com


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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Douglas Roberts-2



On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Stephen Guerin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ok Troll-Boy, I'll bite.

[...]


Doug, where do you think intelligent behavior (ie life) comes from? Do you have a view?  a pet theory? too busy?

Never too busy to respond to you, G-man.  A slight time delay will be incurred, however, as I have two proposals to get out the door this week. But fear not, a saucy riposte is in the works...

--TrollBoi

--- -. .   ..-. .. ... ....   - .-- ---   ..-. .. ... ....
1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
office: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20995-0206" value="+15059950206" target="_blank">(505) 995-0206 tollfree: <a href="tel:%28888%29%20414-3855" value="+18884143855" target="_blank">(888) 414-3855
mobile: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20577-5828" value="+15055775828" target="_blank">(505) 577-5828  fax: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20819-5952" value="+15058195952" target="_blank">(505) 819-5952   
tw: @redfishgroup  skype: redfishgroup  gvoice: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20216-6226" value="+15052166226" target="_blank">(505) 216-6226


On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html

It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces".

--Doug

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" value="+15056728213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com


============================================================
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--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Douglas Roberts-2
In reply to this post by Stephen Guerin
Fuggit, work can wait, the first proposal is in final edit and the second one is under control, so why delay my response.

Re: your question of what do I find ridiculous: Not the subject of the referenced paper, certainly.  Rather our little group's pronounced tendency to niggle and (dare I say it?) pontificate over the true, deep, and (dare I say it?) philosophical meanings of words.  Like, say, just to pick a random sample:  "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal", "entropic", and "forces".

And now to hijack my own thread: the referenced paper mentions cosmology as one of the topic ares that the above terms are frequently used to describe.  Since cosmology is one of my favorite spare time reading focus areas, I wanted to make an observation that the following reference makes very clearly, which is that nobody has even the slightest glimmer of understanding of our true cosmological origins.  Even the events after that instant of the big bang, where it is postulated that our universe expanded from sub-atomic dimensions, through inflation (inflation? WTF caused that?) are only sparsely understood. 

Classical physicists like to duck the subject of "What caused the big bang?" by hiding behind the academic artifice of claiming that the question is meaningless because space-time did not exist before the big bang.

But, we do like to pontificate here on FRIAM, don't we?  Deeply, and philosophically. But rather than continuing in the usual vein of debating (deeply, but with much pontification) the true meaning, of, say "emergence" again, let's take the discussion in a new direction.  Sorry for the Facebook link, but the original article is buried behind a NewScientist paywall.  The article nicely addresses my thoughts on that other question you asked me, i.e. where do I think life comes from.



--TrollBoi

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Stephen Guerin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ok Troll-Boy, I'll bite.

Here's the paper referenced in the phys.org post:

Are these concepts so foreign that you hope to watch a thread thrash on the semantics and meanings of this theoretical worldview? Is there something in Hewitt's paper that strikes you as ridiculous, hogwosh or complexity babble?

The ideas in the paper restate what is obvious to many of the practitioners on this list. Namely that structure formation and origin of life may well be best understood as nature's response to imposed non-equilibrium gradients. To many this is a core idea of Complexity. This mechanism has been linked as a causal mechanism for the emergence of autonomous intelligent emergent behavior since (1980, Kugler, Kelso and Turvey), (2000 Kauffman), (2005 Jun and Hubler and 2011 Hubler et al) and (2007 Morowitz and Smith) among others.

I haven't actually seen the software "entropica" referenced in the paper and the claims may be a little over stated but the core ideas you quote "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces" are not new and strike me as matter of fact.

These same ideas have thrashed on the list almost exactly 10 years ago:

Doug, where do you think intelligent behavior (ie life) comes from? Do you have a view?  a pet theory? too busy?

--- -. .   ..-. .. ... ....   - .-- ---   ..-. .. ... ....
1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505
office: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20995-0206" value="+15059950206" target="_blank">(505) 995-0206 tollfree: <a href="tel:%28888%29%20414-3855" value="+18884143855" target="_blank">(888) 414-3855
mobile: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20577-5828" value="+15055775828" target="_blank">(505) 577-5828  fax: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20819-5952" value="+15058195952" target="_blank">(505) 819-5952   
tw: @redfishgroup  skype: redfishgroup  gvoice: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20216-6226" value="+15052166226" target="_blank">(505) 216-6226


On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html

It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces".

--Doug

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" value="+15056728213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com


============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com



--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Owen Densmore
Administrator
On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 9:16 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
​<snip>​

--TrollBoi

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Stephen Guerin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ok Troll-Boy, I'll bite.
​...​

Nick: Just for fun, I looked Troll up for us: (slightly self referential .. this itself is at least OT)

   -- Owen

Troll (Internet)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about internet slang. For other uses, see Troll (disambiguation).
Page semi-protected

In Internet slang, a troll (pron.: /ˈtrl//ˈtrɒl/) is someone who posts inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topicmessages in an online community, such as a forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[3] The noun troll may also refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted."

While the word troll and its associated verb trolling are associated with Internet discourse, media attention in recent years has made such labels subjective, with trolling describing intentionally provocative actions and harassmentoutside of an online context. For example, mass media has used troll to describe "a person who defaces Internet tribute sites with the aim of causing grief to families."[4][5]

It has been asserted that the verb to troll originates from Old French troller, a hunting term. A verb "trôler" is found in modern French-English dictionaries, where the main meaning given is "to lead, or drag, somebody about". In modern English usage, the verb to troll describes a fishing technique of slowly dragging a lure or baited hook from a moving boat.[6] A similar but distinct verb, "to trawl," describes the act of dragging a fishing net (not a line). Whereas trolling with a fishing line is recreational, trawling with a net is generally a commercial activity.


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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

glen ropella
In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Whenever I go down to Portland State University, there's a
fundamentalist preacher standing on a bench asserting that all the
people walking around are morally in danger.  He talks and talks, rails
and rails.  Yet the students discuss their classes or their social
networks, study their books, talk on their phones, eat their lunch, etc.

No matter how loud the preacher yells about the behavior and moral
degradation of the people around him, nobody listens.  They continue to
do what they do, sometimes listening in amusement to the preacher, or
playing "Amen, brother" games with him, but mostly ignoring him.

I have some ideas about why his protestations have no effect.  But it
would help, especially in a conversation like this, if the preacher,
himself, were to give some practical hint as to _how_ the discussion
could be taken in a new direction.  Or even in what new direction the
preacher would like us to take the discussion.  (Aside from thumbing
some bible or other.)

Mostly, the preacher seems to want to preach, with no discussion being
possible.  Anytime anyone tries to approach the preacher and _discuss_
whatever, the preacher ends up ranting and railing about how that person
just doesn't get it and always falls into the standard immorality they
exhibited before they tried to start a discussion with the preacher.


On 04/23/2013 08:16 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

> Fuggit, work can wait, the first proposal is in final edit and the second
> one is under control, so why delay my response.
>
> Re: your question of what do I find ridiculous: Not the subject of the
> referenced paper, certainly.  Rather our little group's pronounced tendency
> to niggle and (dare I say it?) pontificate over the true, deep, and (dare I
> say it?) philosophical meanings of words.  Like, say, just to pick a random
> sample:  "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal",
> "entropic", and "forces".
>
> And now to hijack my own thread: the referenced paper mentions cosmology as
> one of the topic ares that the above terms are frequently used to describe.
>  Since cosmology is one of my favorite spare time reading focus areas, I
> wanted to make an observation that the following reference makes very
> clearly, which is that *nobody* has even the slightest glimmer of
> understanding of our true cosmological origins.  Even the events after that
> instant of the big bang, where it is postulated that our universe expanded
> from sub-atomic dimensions, through inflation (inflation? WTF caused that?)
> are only sparsely understood.
>
> Classical physicists like to duck the subject of "What caused the big
> bang?" by hiding behind the academic artifice of claiming that the question
> is meaningless because space-time did not exist before the big bang.
>
> But, we do like to pontificate here on FRIAM, don't we?  Deeply, and
> philosophically. But rather than continuing in the usual vein of debating
> (deeply, but with much pontification) the true meaning, of, say "emergence"
> again, let's take the discussion in a new direction.  Sorry for the
> Facebook link, but the original article is buried behind a NewScientist
> paywall.  The article nicely addresses my thoughts on that other question
> you asked me, i.e. where do I think life comes from.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=501821756549668&set=a.477892902275887.114170.334816523250193&type=1&theater
>
>
> --TrollBoi


--
glen  =><= Hail Eris!

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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Owen Densmore
Administrator
Wait, to be fair, Doug simply
1 - Presented a pointer to an interesting article
2 - Explained why the article was interesting to him

Where's the problem?

I'm amazed at the article and would love to see the stunts that the program uses to increase entropy locally .. if I get it.

   -- Owen


On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:34 AM, glen ropella <[hidden email]> wrote:

Whenever I go down to Portland State University, there's a
fundamentalist preacher standing on a bench asserting that all the
people walking around are morally in danger.  He talks and talks, rails
and rails.  Yet the students discuss their classes or their social
networks, study their books, talk on their phones, eat their lunch, etc.

No matter how loud the preacher yells about the behavior and moral
degradation of the people around him, nobody listens.  They continue to
do what they do, sometimes listening in amusement to the preacher, or
playing "Amen, brother" games with him, but mostly ignoring him.

I have some ideas about why his protestations have no effect.  But it
would help, especially in a conversation like this, if the preacher,
himself, were to give some practical hint as to _how_ the discussion
could be taken in a new direction.  Or even in what new direction the
preacher would like us to take the discussion.  (Aside from thumbing
some bible or other.)

Mostly, the preacher seems to want to preach, with no discussion being
possible.  Anytime anyone tries to approach the preacher and _discuss_
whatever, the preacher ends up ranting and railing about how that person
just doesn't get it and always falls into the standard immorality they
exhibited before they tried to start a discussion with the preacher.


On 04/23/2013 08:16 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
> Fuggit, work can wait, the first proposal is in final edit and the second
> one is under control, so why delay my response.
>
> Re: your question of what do I find ridiculous: Not the subject of the
> referenced paper, certainly.  Rather our little group's pronounced tendency
> to niggle and (dare I say it?) pontificate over the true, deep, and (dare I
> say it?) philosophical meanings of words.  Like, say, just to pick a random
> sample:  "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal",
> "entropic", and "forces".
>
> And now to hijack my own thread: the referenced paper mentions cosmology as
> one of the topic ares that the above terms are frequently used to describe.
>  Since cosmology is one of my favorite spare time reading focus areas, I
> wanted to make an observation that the following reference makes very
> clearly, which is that *nobody* has even the slightest glimmer of
> understanding of our true cosmological origins.  Even the events after that
> instant of the big bang, where it is postulated that our universe expanded
> from sub-atomic dimensions, through inflation (inflation? WTF caused that?)
> are only sparsely understood.
>
> Classical physicists like to duck the subject of "What caused the big
> bang?" by hiding behind the academic artifice of claiming that the question
> is meaningless because space-time did not exist before the big bang.
>
> But, we do like to pontificate here on FRIAM, don't we?  Deeply, and
> philosophically. But rather than continuing in the usual vein of debating
> (deeply, but with much pontification) the true meaning, of, say "emergence"
> again, let's take the discussion in a new direction.  Sorry for the
> Facebook link, but the original article is buried behind a NewScientist
> paywall.  The article nicely addresses my thoughts on that other question
> you asked me, i.e. where do I think life comes from.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=501821756549668&set=a.477892902275887.114170.334816523250193&type=1&theater
>
>
> --TrollBoi


--
glen  =><= Hail Eris!

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Owen Densmore
Administrator
Oh, and I'm 200% with Doug about our "deadly embrace" tendency, quibbling about words and sucking the life out of otherwise interesting conversations.  Now *that's* trolling!

   -- Owen


On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
Wait, to be fair, Doug simply
1 - Presented a pointer to an interesting article
2 - Explained why the article was interesting to him

Where's the problem?

I'm amazed at the article and would love to see the stunts that the program uses to increase entropy locally .. if I get it.

   -- Owen


On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:34 AM, glen ropella <[hidden email]> wrote:

Whenever I go down to Portland State University, there's a
fundamentalist preacher standing on a bench asserting that all the
people walking around are morally in danger.  He talks and talks, rails
and rails.  Yet the students discuss their classes or their social
networks, study their books, talk on their phones, eat their lunch, etc.

No matter how loud the preacher yells about the behavior and moral
degradation of the people around him, nobody listens.  They continue to
do what they do, sometimes listening in amusement to the preacher, or
playing "Amen, brother" games with him, but mostly ignoring him.

I have some ideas about why his protestations have no effect.  But it
would help, especially in a conversation like this, if the preacher,
himself, were to give some practical hint as to _how_ the discussion
could be taken in a new direction.  Or even in what new direction the
preacher would like us to take the discussion.  (Aside from thumbing
some bible or other.)

Mostly, the preacher seems to want to preach, with no discussion being
possible.  Anytime anyone tries to approach the preacher and _discuss_
whatever, the preacher ends up ranting and railing about how that person
just doesn't get it and always falls into the standard immorality they
exhibited before they tried to start a discussion with the preacher.


On 04/23/2013 08:16 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
> Fuggit, work can wait, the first proposal is in final edit and the second
> one is under control, so why delay my response.
>
> Re: your question of what do I find ridiculous: Not the subject of the
> referenced paper, certainly.  Rather our little group's pronounced tendency
> to niggle and (dare I say it?) pontificate over the true, deep, and (dare I
> say it?) philosophical meanings of words.  Like, say, just to pick a random
> sample:  "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal",
> "entropic", and "forces".
>
> And now to hijack my own thread: the referenced paper mentions cosmology as
> one of the topic ares that the above terms are frequently used to describe.
>  Since cosmology is one of my favorite spare time reading focus areas, I
> wanted to make an observation that the following reference makes very
> clearly, which is that *nobody* has even the slightest glimmer of
> understanding of our true cosmological origins.  Even the events after that
> instant of the big bang, where it is postulated that our universe expanded
> from sub-atomic dimensions, through inflation (inflation? WTF caused that?)
> are only sparsely understood.
>
> Classical physicists like to duck the subject of "What caused the big
> bang?" by hiding behind the academic artifice of claiming that the question
> is meaningless because space-time did not exist before the big bang.
>
> But, we do like to pontificate here on FRIAM, don't we?  Deeply, and
> philosophically. But rather than continuing in the usual vein of debating
> (deeply, but with much pontification) the true meaning, of, say "emergence"
> again, let's take the discussion in a new direction.  Sorry for the
> Facebook link, but the original article is buried behind a NewScientist
> paywall.  The article nicely addresses my thoughts on that other question
> you asked me, i.e. where do I think life comes from.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=501821756549668&set=a.477892902275887.114170.334816523250193&type=1&theater
>
>
> --TrollBoi


--
glen  =><= Hail Eris!

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Douglas Roberts-2
Well, to be *totally* fair, Owen, I wasn't just pointing out an article in one of my interest areas.  I was also using it as an opportunity to gently criticize some  of my FRIAM colleagues. Just a little bit.

--Doug


On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
Oh, and I'm 200% with Doug about our "deadly embrace" tendency, quibbling about words and sucking the life out of otherwise interesting conversations.  Now *that's* trolling!

   -- Owen


On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
Wait, to be fair, Doug simply
1 - Presented a pointer to an interesting article
2 - Explained why the article was interesting to him

Where's the problem?

I'm amazed at the article and would love to see the stunts that the program uses to increase entropy locally .. if I get it.

   -- Owen


On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:34 AM, glen ropella <[hidden email]> wrote:

Whenever I go down to Portland State University, there's a
fundamentalist preacher standing on a bench asserting that all the
people walking around are morally in danger.  He talks and talks, rails
and rails.  Yet the students discuss their classes or their social
networks, study their books, talk on their phones, eat their lunch, etc.

No matter how loud the preacher yells about the behavior and moral
degradation of the people around him, nobody listens.  They continue to
do what they do, sometimes listening in amusement to the preacher, or
playing "Amen, brother" games with him, but mostly ignoring him.

I have some ideas about why his protestations have no effect.  But it
would help, especially in a conversation like this, if the preacher,
himself, were to give some practical hint as to _how_ the discussion
could be taken in a new direction.  Or even in what new direction the
preacher would like us to take the discussion.  (Aside from thumbing
some bible or other.)

Mostly, the preacher seems to want to preach, with no discussion being
possible.  Anytime anyone tries to approach the preacher and _discuss_
whatever, the preacher ends up ranting and railing about how that person
just doesn't get it and always falls into the standard immorality they
exhibited before they tried to start a discussion with the preacher.


On 04/23/2013 08:16 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
> Fuggit, work can wait, the first proposal is in final edit and the second
> one is under control, so why delay my response.
>
> Re: your question of what do I find ridiculous: Not the subject of the
> referenced paper, certainly.  Rather our little group's pronounced tendency
> to niggle and (dare I say it?) pontificate over the true, deep, and (dare I
> say it?) philosophical meanings of words.  Like, say, just to pick a random
> sample:  "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal",
> "entropic", and "forces".
>
> And now to hijack my own thread: the referenced paper mentions cosmology as
> one of the topic ares that the above terms are frequently used to describe.
>  Since cosmology is one of my favorite spare time reading focus areas, I
> wanted to make an observation that the following reference makes very
> clearly, which is that *nobody* has even the slightest glimmer of
> understanding of our true cosmological origins.  Even the events after that
> instant of the big bang, where it is postulated that our universe expanded
> from sub-atomic dimensions, through inflation (inflation? WTF caused that?)
> are only sparsely understood.
>
> Classical physicists like to duck the subject of "What caused the big
> bang?" by hiding behind the academic artifice of claiming that the question
> is meaningless because space-time did not exist before the big bang.
>
> But, we do like to pontificate here on FRIAM, don't we?  Deeply, and
> philosophically. But rather than continuing in the usual vein of debating
> (deeply, but with much pontification) the true meaning, of, say "emergence"
> again, let's take the discussion in a new direction.  Sorry for the
> Facebook link, but the original article is buried behind a NewScientist
> paywall.  The article nicely addresses my thoughts on that other question
> you asked me, i.e. where do I think life comes from.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=501821756549668&set=a.477892902275887.114170.334816523250193&type=1&theater
>
>
> --TrollBoi


--
glen  =><= Hail Eris!

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Marcus G. Daniels
In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
glen wrote:
> or playing "Amen, brother" games with him
The preacher and entourage can be humiliated without cost.  That's worse
than the preaching IMO.
I say step up and take them apart, point by point, or stay silent.

Marcus

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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Nick Thompson
In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Doug, 

 

I want to participate in your anti-discussion discussion, but I cannot master the facebook link.  Each time I click on it it invites me to create a gmail account (which I already have, but do not use).  It won’t let me link to the old account.  So, I start another one.  And then, somehow, I never get to the link you are offering me. So I do it again, and accumulate another gmail account.  I am up to about six, now, and getting weary.

 

So, unless you can use words (rather than links), I will have to watch from afar.  God knows, that probably wouldn’t be a bad thing. 

 

Nick

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:16 AM
To: Stephen Guerin; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

 

Fuggit, work can wait, the first proposal is in final edit and the second one is under control, so why delay my response.

 

Re: your question of what do I find ridiculous: Not the subject of the referenced paper, certainly.  Rather our little group's pronounced tendency to niggle and (dare I say it?) pontificate over the true, deep, and (dare I say it?) philosophical meanings of words.  Like, say, just to pick a random sample:  "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal", "entropic", and "forces".


And now to hijack my own thread: the referenced paper mentions cosmology as one of the topic ares that the above terms are frequently used to describe.  Since cosmology is one of my favorite spare time reading focus areas, I wanted to make an observation that the following reference makes very clearly, which is that nobody has even the slightest glimmer of understanding of our true cosmological origins.  Even the events after that instant of the big bang, where it is postulated that our universe expanded from sub-atomic dimensions, through inflation (inflation? WTF caused that?) are only sparsely understood. 

 

Classical physicists like to duck the subject of "What caused the big bang?" by hiding behind the academic artifice of claiming that the question is meaningless because space-time did not exist before the big bang.

 

But, we do like to pontificate here on FRIAM, don't we?  Deeply, and philosophically. But rather than continuing in the usual vein of debating (deeply, but with much pontification) the true meaning, of, say "emergence" again, let's take the discussion in a new direction.  Sorry for the Facebook link, but the original article is buried behind a NewScientist paywall.  The article nicely addresses my thoughts on that other question you asked me, i.e. where do I think life comes from.

 

 

 

--TrollBoi

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Stephen Guerin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok Troll-Boy, I'll bite.

 

Here's the paper referenced in the phys.org post:

 

Are these concepts so foreign that you hope to watch a thread thrash on the semantics and meanings of this theoretical worldview? Is there something in Hewitt's paper that strikes you as ridiculous, hogwosh or complexity babble?

 

The ideas in the paper restate what is obvious to many of the practitioners on this list. Namely that structure formation and origin of life may well be best understood as nature's response to imposed non-equilibrium gradients. To many this is a core idea of Complexity. This mechanism has been linked as a causal mechanism for the emergence of autonomous intelligent emergent behavior since (1980, Kugler, Kelso and Turvey), (2000 Kauffman), (2005 Jun and Hubler and 2011 Hubler et al) and (2007 Morowitz and Smith) among others.

 

I haven't actually seen the software "entropica" referenced in the paper and the claims may be a little over stated but the core ideas you quote "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces" are not new and strike me as matter of fact.

 

These same ideas have thrashed on the list almost exactly 10 years ago:

 

Doug, where do you think intelligent behavior (ie life) comes from? Do you have a view?  a pet theory? too busy?

 

--- -. .   ..-. .. ... ....   - .-- ---   ..-. .. ... ....

1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505

office: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20995-0206" target="_blank">(505) 995-0206 tollfree: <a href="tel:%28888%29%20414-3855" target="_blank">(888) 414-3855

mobile: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20577-5828" target="_blank">(505) 577-5828  fax: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20819-5952" target="_blank">(505) 819-5952   

tw: @redfishgroup  skype: redfishgroup  gvoice: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20216-6226" target="_blank">(505) 216-6226

 

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html

 

It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces".

 

--Doug

 

--

Doug Roberts
[hidden email]


<a href="tel:505-455-7333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

 


============================================================
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--

Doug Roberts
[hidden email]


505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile


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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Douglas Roberts-2
Here it is, Nick.

BEFORE THE BIG BANG, OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE...

If the Universe began with the Big Bang, what existed before? And if the Universe has a limit, what is beyond it? Two deceptively simple questions cosmologists have been struggling with for decades. Let's look at the latter first.

As far as we can tell, in its first moments of existence, the Universe underwent an enormous and almost instantaneous burst of expansion called inflation. It continued to expand at a more measured pace ever since. Photons from distant galaxies reaching us today have travelled through the space with the speed of light for billions of years, but none of them for longer than 13.8 billion years - our best estimate of the age of the Universe. This tells us that there's a limit to the Universe we can observe. If we take into account that the Universe has been expanding while the photons were on their way, the distance to the farthest visible object (we call it the particle horizon) is now approximately 46 billion light-years.

But that doesn't mean that there's nothing beyond the limit of the observable Universe. When we trace the expansion back to the time before inflation, all that we can see today would have fit within a sphere 10⁻²⁷ m across, smaller than any known elementary particle. But it is conceivable that there was something outside that tiny bubble and that inflation expanded that space too. All that space would have ended up outside the particle horizon of our observable Universe. We can't see them since the photons from those objects haven't had time to reach us yet. Depending on how fast the Universe expands, these areas may, with time, find themselves inside the horizon and become observable. (Not, however, if the Universe is dominated by the cosmological constant - the dark energy - which it is expected to become in the distant future.)

Now for the more complicated question of what existed before the Big Bang. The conservative answer is that we just cannot know. Our knowledge of the early Universe is based on the laws of physics we've been able to discover thus far, and these laws of physics break down as we get to the very moment of the Universe's beginning. It appears that the concepts of space and time themselves disappear in the initial singularity. We can say that space and time came into existence at that very moment and that there's no point of asking what was before, since the word "before" doesn't make sense. This answer doesn't feel satisfying though, so cosmologists have been looking for hypotheses outside the well established theories, in search of better answers.

One such hypothesis proposes that inflation continues to take place even today. It is propelled by an inflaton field which spontaneously decays in random areas. Those areas become "baby universes" with their own big bangs. The inflation never stops and new bubbles continue to be created forever. Our Universe is just one of many such bubbles. After more careful considerations, however, it turns out that such bubbly multiverse would also, alas, need a beginning.

Another concept is that of a "cyclic universe". Derived from string theory, the hypothesis postulates that our Universe is a four-dimensional "brane" in a higher-dimensional space. It repetitively collides with another such brane. The collisions result in tremendous release of energy and creation of matter which we'd observe as the Big Bang. Again, it turns out that these periodic collisions of branes also must have a beginning.

Another model of an eternal universe assumes that it was initially small, static and existed in such uneventful state forever. Then, suddenly, out of the blue, it inflated and underwent a Big Bang. Not a very attractive model, but it does arise in some versions of string theory.

It appears that, conceivably, there was something before the Big Bang. However, all plausible models only push back the question of the ultimate beginning. Considering that we may be living in only one universe in a sea of uncounted other universes and that uncounted generations of earlier universes may have existed before ours, we may never be able to actually understand how it all initially came to be. But that doesn't mean we'll stop trying.

- PZ

Source: http://bit.ly/YMLQUA



On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Doug, 

 

I want to participate in your anti-discussion discussion, but I cannot master the facebook link.  Each time I click on it it invites me to create a gmail account (which I already have, but do not use).  It won’t let me link to the old account.  So, I start another one.  And then, somehow, I never get to the link you are offering me. So I do it again, and accumulate another gmail account.  I am up to about six, now, and getting weary.

 

So, unless you can use words (rather than links), I will have to watch from afar.  God knows, that probably wouldn’t be a bad thing. 

 

Nick

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:16 AM
To: Stephen Guerin; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

 

Fuggit, work can wait, the first proposal is in final edit and the second one is under control, so why delay my response.

 

Re: your question of what do I find ridiculous: Not the subject of the referenced paper, certainly.  Rather our little group's pronounced tendency to niggle and (dare I say it?) pontificate over the true, deep, and (dare I say it?) philosophical meanings of words.  Like, say, just to pick a random sample:  "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal", "entropic", and "forces".


And now to hijack my own thread: the referenced paper mentions cosmology as one of the topic ares that the above terms are frequently used to describe.  Since cosmology is one of my favorite spare time reading focus areas, I wanted to make an observation that the following reference makes very clearly, which is that nobody has even the slightest glimmer of understanding of our true cosmological origins.  Even the events after that instant of the big bang, where it is postulated that our universe expanded from sub-atomic dimensions, through inflation (inflation? WTF caused that?) are only sparsely understood. 

 

Classical physicists like to duck the subject of "What caused the big bang?" by hiding behind the academic artifice of claiming that the question is meaningless because space-time did not exist before the big bang.

 

But, we do like to pontificate here on FRIAM, don't we?  Deeply, and philosophically. But rather than continuing in the usual vein of debating (deeply, but with much pontification) the true meaning, of, say "emergence" again, let's take the discussion in a new direction.  Sorry for the Facebook link, but the original article is buried behind a NewScientist paywall.  The article nicely addresses my thoughts on that other question you asked me, i.e. where do I think life comes from.

 

 

 

--TrollBoi

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Stephen Guerin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok Troll-Boy, I'll bite.

 

Here's the paper referenced in the phys.org post:

 

Are these concepts so foreign that you hope to watch a thread thrash on the semantics and meanings of this theoretical worldview? Is there something in Hewitt's paper that strikes you as ridiculous, hogwosh or complexity babble?

 

The ideas in the paper restate what is obvious to many of the practitioners on this list. Namely that structure formation and origin of life may well be best understood as nature's response to imposed non-equilibrium gradients. To many this is a core idea of Complexity. This mechanism has been linked as a causal mechanism for the emergence of autonomous intelligent emergent behavior since (1980, Kugler, Kelso and Turvey), (2000 Kauffman), (2005 Jun and Hubler and 2011 Hubler et al) and (2007 Morowitz and Smith) among others.

 

I haven't actually seen the software "entropica" referenced in the paper and the claims may be a little over stated but the core ideas you quote "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces" are not new and strike me as matter of fact.

 

These same ideas have thrashed on the list almost exactly 10 years ago:

 

Doug, where do you think intelligent behavior (ie life) comes from? Do you have a view?  a pet theory? too busy?

 

--- -. .   ..-. .. ... ....   - .-- ---   ..-. .. ... ....

1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505

office: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20995-0206" target="_blank">(505) 995-0206 tollfree: <a href="tel:%28888%29%20414-3855" target="_blank">(888) 414-3855

mobile: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20577-5828" target="_blank">(505) 577-5828  fax: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20819-5952" target="_blank">(505) 819-5952   

tw: @redfishgroup  skype: redfishgroup  gvoice: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20216-6226" target="_blank">(505) 216-6226

 

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html

 

It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces".

 

--Doug

 

--

Doug Roberts
[hidden email]


<a href="tel:505-455-7333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

 


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com



 

--

Doug Roberts
[hidden email]


<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" value="+15056728213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Nick Thompson
In reply to this post by glen ropella
Continuing the tone of thoughtful musing ...

In academia, there is a phenomenon I used to call "fog-horns on a shrouded
bay" that characterized most academic discussions and ALL faculty meetings.
Everybody would politely listen while each person would say what they always
said.  Year after year.  It got so bad that if somebody was sick, one of the
others of us would sound his horn at the appropriate time, just to keep
things the same.  "Isn't this the place where Joe says .....?"  I think all
human beings, like your street-corner ranter, have a tendency in this
direction -- to come to the "meeting" with a permanent opinion and seek
validation by making others listen to it.  What has always fascinated me is
the possibility of an actual dialectic ... a conversation in which people
change and arrive at new positions as they try to integrate two fundamental
facts ...."I respect you" and "I disagree with you."  I would be out of
FRIAM in a flash, if I didn't see that happening from time to time.  

Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ropella
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 10:35 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration


Whenever I go down to Portland State University, there's a fundamentalist
preacher standing on a bench asserting that all the people walking around
are morally in danger.  He talks and talks, rails and rails.  Yet the
students discuss their classes or their social networks, study their books,
talk on their phones, eat their lunch, etc.

No matter how loud the preacher yells about the behavior and moral
degradation of the people around him, nobody listens.  They continue to do
what they do, sometimes listening in amusement to the preacher, or playing
"Amen, brother" games with him, but mostly ignoring him.

I have some ideas about why his protestations have no effect.  But it would
help, especially in a conversation like this, if the preacher, himself, were
to give some practical hint as to _how_ the discussion could be taken in a
new direction.  Or even in what new direction the preacher would like us to
take the discussion.  (Aside from thumbing some bible or other.)

Mostly, the preacher seems to want to preach, with no discussion being
possible.  Anytime anyone tries to approach the preacher and _discuss_
whatever, the preacher ends up ranting and railing about how that person
just doesn't get it and always falls into the standard immorality they
exhibited before they tried to start a discussion with the preacher.


On 04/23/2013 08:16 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

> Fuggit, work can wait, the first proposal is in final edit and the
> second one is under control, so why delay my response.
>
> Re: your question of what do I find ridiculous: Not the subject of the
> referenced paper, certainly.  Rather our little group's pronounced
> tendency to niggle and (dare I say it?) pontificate over the true,
> deep, and (dare I say it?) philosophical meanings of words.  Like,
> say, just to pick a random
> sample:  "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal",
> "entropic", and "forces".
>
> And now to hijack my own thread: the referenced paper mentions
> cosmology as one of the topic ares that the above terms are frequently
used to describe.

>  Since cosmology is one of my favorite spare time reading focus areas,
> I wanted to make an observation that the following reference makes
> very clearly, which is that *nobody* has even the slightest glimmer of
> understanding of our true cosmological origins.  Even the events after
> that instant of the big bang, where it is postulated that our universe
> expanded from sub-atomic dimensions, through inflation (inflation? WTF
> caused that?) are only sparsely understood.
>
> Classical physicists like to duck the subject of "What caused the big
> bang?" by hiding behind the academic artifice of claiming that the
> question is meaningless because space-time did not exist before the big
bang.
>
> But, we do like to pontificate here on FRIAM, don't we?  Deeply, and
> philosophically. But rather than continuing in the usual vein of
> debating (deeply, but with much pontification) the true meaning, of, say
"emergence"

> again, let's take the discussion in a new direction.  Sorry for the
> Facebook link, but the original article is buried behind a
> NewScientist paywall.  The article nicely addresses my thoughts on
> that other question you asked me, i.e. where do I think life comes from.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=501821756549668&set=a.47789290
> 2275887.114170.334816523250193&type=1&theater
>
>
> --TrollBoi


--
glen  =><= Hail Eris!

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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Owen Densmore
Administrator
Oh dear, I have it bad .. I really would like to discuss the article!

Oh well,

   -- Owen

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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Nick Thompson
In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Ok, Owen. I am rising to this bait.

 

Oh, and I'm 200% with Doug about our "deadly embrace" tendency, quibbling about words and sucking the life out of otherwise interesting conversations.  Now *that's* trolling!

 

 

Please give me an example of such trolling.  And yes this is a soft ball down the middle of the plate.  So, hit it squarely.  Let’s pick an example where somebody “sucked the life out of” a conversation and I bet you will find an example of where somebody actually blew life into it for some portion of the list. 

 

Nick

 

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 11:08 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

 

Well, to be *totally* fair, Owen, I wasn't just pointing out an article in one of my interest areas.  I was also using it as an opportunity to gently criticize some  of my FRIAM colleagues. Just a little bit.

 

--Doug

 

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Oh, and I'm 200% with Doug about our "deadly embrace" tendency, quibbling about words and sucking the life out of otherwise interesting conversations.  Now *that's* trolling!

 

   -- Owen

 

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Wait, to be fair, Doug simply

1 - Presented a pointer to an interesting article

2 - Explained why the article was interesting to him

 

Where's the problem?

 

I'm amazed at the article and would love to see the stunts that the program uses to increase entropy locally .. if I get it.

 

   -- Owen

 

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:34 AM, glen ropella <[hidden email]> wrote:


Whenever I go down to Portland State University, there's a
fundamentalist preacher standing on a bench asserting that all the
people walking around are morally in danger.  He talks and talks, rails
and rails.  Yet the students discuss their classes or their social
networks, study their books, talk on their phones, eat their lunch, etc.

No matter how loud the preacher yells about the behavior and moral
degradation of the people around him, nobody listens.  They continue to
do what they do, sometimes listening in amusement to the preacher, or
playing "Amen, brother" games with him, but mostly ignoring him.

I have some ideas about why his protestations have no effect.  But it
would help, especially in a conversation like this, if the preacher,
himself, were to give some practical hint as to _how_ the discussion
could be taken in a new direction.  Or even in what new direction the
preacher would like us to take the discussion.  (Aside from thumbing
some bible or other.)

Mostly, the preacher seems to want to preach, with no discussion being
possible.  Anytime anyone tries to approach the preacher and _discuss_
whatever, the preacher ends up ranting and railing about how that person
just doesn't get it and always falls into the standard immorality they
exhibited before they tried to start a discussion with the preacher.



On 04/23/2013 08:16 AM, Douglas Roberts wrote:


> Fuggit, work can wait, the first proposal is in final edit and the second
> one is under control, so why delay my response.
>
> Re: your question of what do I find ridiculous: Not the subject of the
> referenced paper, certainly.  Rather our little group's pronounced tendency
> to niggle and (dare I say it?) pontificate over the true, deep, and (dare I
> say it?) philosophical meanings of words.  Like, say, just to pick a random
> sample:  "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal",
> "entropic", and "forces".
>
> And now to hijack my own thread: the referenced paper mentions cosmology as
> one of the topic ares that the above terms are frequently used to describe.
>  Since cosmology is one of my favorite spare time reading focus areas, I
> wanted to make an observation that the following reference makes very

> clearly, which is that *nobody* has even the slightest glimmer of

> understanding of our true cosmological origins.  Even the events after that
> instant of the big bang, where it is postulated that our universe expanded
> from sub-atomic dimensions, through inflation (inflation? WTF caused that?)
> are only sparsely understood.
>
> Classical physicists like to duck the subject of "What caused the big
> bang?" by hiding behind the academic artifice of claiming that the question
> is meaningless because space-time did not exist before the big bang.
>
> But, we do like to pontificate here on FRIAM, don't we?  Deeply, and
> philosophically. But rather than continuing in the usual vein of debating
> (deeply, but with much pontification) the true meaning, of, say "emergence"
> again, let's take the discussion in a new direction.  Sorry for the
> Facebook link, but the original article is buried behind a NewScientist
> paywall.  The article nicely addresses my thoughts on that other question
> you asked me, i.e. where do I think life comes from.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=501821756549668&set=a.477892902275887.114170.334816523250193&type=1&theater
>
>
> --TrollBoi


--
glen  =><= Hail Eris!


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--

Doug Roberts
[hidden email]


505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile


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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Nick Thompson
In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Thanks Doug. 

 

N

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 11:34 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

 

Here it is, Nick.

 

BEFORE THE BIG BANG, OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE...

If the Universe began with the Big Bang, what existed before? And if the Universe has a limit, what is beyond it? Two deceptively simple questions cosmologists have been struggling with for decades. Let's look at the latter first.

As far as we can tell, in its first moments of existence, the Universe underwent an enormous and almost instantaneous burst of expansion called inflation. It continued to expand at a more measured pace ever since. Photons from distant galaxies reaching us today have travelled through the space with the speed of light for billions of years, but none of them for longer than 13.8 billion years - our best estimate of the age of the Universe. This tells us that there's a limit to the Universe we can observe. If we take into account that the Universe has been expanding while the photons were on their way, the distance to the farthest visible object (we call it the particle horizon) is now approximately 46 billion light-years.

But that doesn't mean that there's nothing beyond the limit of the observable Universe. When we trace the expansion back to the time before inflation, all that we can see today would have fit within a sphere 10
² m across, smaller than any known elementary particle. But it is conceivable that there was something outside that tiny bubble and that inflation expanded that space too. All that space would have ended up outside the particle horizon of our observable Universe. We can't see them since the photons from those objects haven't had time to reach us yet. Depending on how fast the Universe expands, these areas may, with time, find themselves inside the horizon and become observable. (Not, however, if the Universe is dominated by the cosmological constant - the dark energy - which it is expected to become in the distant future.)

Now for the more complicated question of what existed before the Big Bang. The conservative answer is that we just cannot know. Our knowledge of the early Universe is based on the laws of physics we've been able to discover thus far, and these laws of physics break down as we get to the very moment of the Universe's beginning. It appears that the concepts of space and time themselves disappear in the initial singularity. We can say that space and time came into existence at that very moment and that there's no point of asking what was before, since the word "before" doesn't make sense. This answer doesn't feel satisfying though, so cosmologists have been looking for hypotheses outside the well established theories, in search of better answers.

One such hypothesis proposes that inflation continues to take place even today. It is propelled by an inflaton field which spontaneously decays in random areas. Those areas become "baby universes" with their own big bangs. The inflation never stops and new bubbles continue to be created forever. Our Universe is just one of many such bubbles. After more careful considerations, however, it turns out that such bubbly multiverse would also, alas, need a beginning.

Another concept is that of a "cyclic universe". Derived from string theory, the hypothesis postulates that our Universe is a four-dimensional "brane" in a higher-dimensional space. It repetitively collides with another such brane. The collisions result in tremendous release of energy and creation of matter which we'd observe as the Big Bang. Again, it turns out that these periodic collisions of branes also must have a beginning.

Another model of an eternal universe assumes that it was initially small, static and existed in such uneventful state forever. Then, suddenly, out of the blue, it inflated and underwent a Big Bang. Not a very attractive model, but it does arise in some versions of string theory.

It appears that, conceivably, there was something before the Big Bang. However, all plausible models only push back the question of the ultimate beginning. Considering that we may be living in only one universe in a sea of uncounted other universes and that uncounted generations of earlier universes may have existed before ours, we may never be able to actually understand how it all initially came to be. But that doesn't mean we'll stop trying.

- PZ

Source: http://bit.ly/YMLQUA

 

 

On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Doug, 

 

I want to participate in your anti-discussion discussion, but I cannot master the facebook link.  Each time I click on it it invites me to create a gmail account (which I already have, but do not use).  It won’t let me link to the old account.  So, I start another one.  And then, somehow, I never get to the link you are offering me. So I do it again, and accumulate another gmail account.  I am up to about six, now, and getting weary.

 

So, unless you can use words (rather than links), I will have to watch from afar.  God knows, that probably wouldn’t be a bad thing. 

 

Nick

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:16 AM
To: Stephen Guerin; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

 

Fuggit, work can wait, the first proposal is in final edit and the second one is under control, so why delay my response.

 

Re: your question of what do I find ridiculous: Not the subject of the referenced paper, certainly.  Rather our little group's pronounced tendency to niggle and (dare I say it?) pontificate over the true, deep, and (dare I say it?) philosophical meanings of words.  Like, say, just to pick a random sample:  "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal", "entropic", and "forces".


And now to hijack my own thread: the referenced paper mentions cosmology as one of the topic ares that the above terms are frequently used to describe.  Since cosmology is one of my favorite spare time reading focus areas, I wanted to make an observation that the following reference makes very clearly, which is that nobody has even the slightest glimmer of understanding of our true cosmological origins.  Even the events after that instant of the big bang, where it is postulated that our universe expanded from sub-atomic dimensions, through inflation (inflation? WTF caused that?) are only sparsely understood. 

 

Classical physicists like to duck the subject of "What caused the big bang?" by hiding behind the academic artifice of claiming that the question is meaningless because space-time did not exist before the big bang.

 

But, we do like to pontificate here on FRIAM, don't we?  Deeply, and philosophically. But rather than continuing in the usual vein of debating (deeply, but with much pontification) the true meaning, of, say "emergence" again, let's take the discussion in a new direction.  Sorry for the Facebook link, but the original article is buried behind a NewScientist paywall.  The article nicely addresses my thoughts on that other question you asked me, i.e. where do I think life comes from.

 

 

 

--TrollBoi

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Stephen Guerin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok Troll-Boy, I'll bite.

 

Here's the paper referenced in the phys.org post:

 

Are these concepts so foreign that you hope to watch a thread thrash on the semantics and meanings of this theoretical worldview? Is there something in Hewitt's paper that strikes you as ridiculous, hogwosh or complexity babble?

 

The ideas in the paper restate what is obvious to many of the practitioners on this list. Namely that structure formation and origin of life may well be best understood as nature's response to imposed non-equilibrium gradients. To many this is a core idea of Complexity. This mechanism has been linked as a causal mechanism for the emergence of autonomous intelligent emergent behavior since (1980, Kugler, Kelso and Turvey), (2000 Kauffman), (2005 Jun and Hubler and 2011 Hubler et al) and (2007 Morowitz and Smith) among others.

 

I haven't actually seen the software "entropica" referenced in the paper and the claims may be a little over stated but the core ideas you quote "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces" are not new and strike me as matter of fact.

 

These same ideas have thrashed on the list almost exactly 10 years ago:

 

Doug, where do you think intelligent behavior (ie life) comes from? Do you have a view?  a pet theory? too busy?

 

--- -. .   ..-. .. ... ....   - .-- ---   ..-. .. ... ....

1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505

office: <a href="tel:%28505%29%20995-0206" target="_blank">(505) 995-0206 tollfree: <a href="tel:%28888%29%20414-3855" target="_blank">(888) 414-3855

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On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://phys.org/news/2013-04-emergence-complex-behaviors-causal-entropic.html

 

It is with much anticipation that we await the detailed discussions that are sure to follow which will cover the meanings of "emergence", "complex", "behaviors", "through", "causal" "entropic", and "forces".

 

--Doug

 

--

Doug Roberts
[hidden email]


<a href="tel:505-455-7333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile

 

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--

Doug Roberts
[hidden email]


<a href="tel:505-455-7333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-672-8213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile


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--

Doug Roberts
[hidden email]


505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile


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Re: Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

Nick Thompson
In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

Well, then stop pejoratizing  other people’s passions.  Just do your thing.  Don’t feel judged when other people do a different thing, don’t feel slighted when other people don’t want to do your thing, don’ t judge others for doing something you don’t understand.  Just do you damned thing.  It’s really quite easy. 

 

To be honest, I have never been much excited by cosmology.  Sitting agog in wonder is not something that makes me particularly happy.  But that’s just me.  I love the fact that it excites you (and Doug), and I will follow the conversation a vague sort of way to see where it turns out.  Who knows?  I may find out that I need to be more interested in it. 

 

So: discuss it, already!

 

N

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 11:58 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Presented for FRIAMic Consideration

 

Oh dear, I have it bad .. I really would like to discuss the article!

 

Oh well,

 

   -- Owen


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