Pandemic Over!

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Pandemic Over!

Steve Smith

June 15 has come and gone... and perhaps it is worth stopping to see if the "Pandemic is Over"...   of course, by the stated definition, perhaps there never was a Pandemic, and Data and Science(tm) are prone to misrepresentation and use.

However...

This graphic is fascinating.  Thank you Merle!

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/2634167/?fbclid=IwAR3VQfNhd00wdGmJGjS-E5_yk0FmUZ-v9n3p2vaJIj_M3bCLMnv8sMgEgKU

The live/interactive version has a very visually compelling impact when you run the time-slider from January 1 to the end of May.  Since it is a common myth that "COVID19 is no worse than the seasonal influenza", I thought I'd check to see when the number of deaths from one caught up with the other.  

It went past me the first time that the date of that "overtake" was April Fools day.   Of course, my conspiracy homunculus (one of many tuned to those channels), jumped right up and called this an "easter egg" put there by George Soros-funded liberal pinko-flagwaver data scientists.  A useful comparison for a related homunculus might be to compare that day to the day of the year the average taxpayer quits working for uncle Sam and gets down to the business for "working for mysself, gall-durnit!".  I think that is a tough day to estimate given how many were out of work, on unemployment, getting stimulus checks, paid by PPP loan/grants by their small business employers, etc.   I'm betting that by the first stimulus check a huge number of people had been paid more for the year than they paid in?!  

For a little more perspective on whether the "Pandemic is Over":
From RT.LIVE on June 20

Looks our states are *precisely* balanced between those whose COVID19 transmission rate is >1.0 and those <1.0

Now Mid April:

Here is where we started (April) with about 1/4 of the states below 1.0.  By some measure half the states are better off now than in the early days of the Pandemic.


But over a month into the lockdown (mid April) we had only 7 (1/7th-ish) states with an Ro>1.0, and all of those under 1.2 (8 infecteds leads to 9 new infecteds).  The hammer worked?

Admittedly, *some* of these were simply "late to enter the race"... so *they* are just hitting their stride a month or so after the states with big cities fed by multiple international airports.

It is interesting (perhaps, to some) to drill down into the individual states Ro Curves and see how they relate to shutdown/open-up dates.  Some states like NM seem to have done well implementing *both* the hammer AND the dance...

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56




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Re: Pandemic Over!

gepr
To be fair to Dave's point, his prediction was mostly that the virus and the disease it causes would continue at whatever levels, yet "things" would return to normal. So we'd start treating it like any other risk, whether higher or lower, subjectively or objectively. So, to treat Dave's point directly, we should really look at things like people wearing masks, social distancing, businesses reopening, travel, attendance at huge right-wing Trump rallies, etc.

So, these are the kinds of links we'd need:

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/state-data-and-policy-actions-to-address-coronavirus/
https://www.unacast.com/covid19/social-distancing-scoreboard
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/06/18/every-states-rules-for-reopening-and-social-distancing/111909588/

Personally, I think Dave's prediction has obviously failed. But I'm biased because my county has only just requested "phase 3", which means MY PUB IS NOT YET OPEN! Damn it. I have an alternate pub, that opened in phase 2 because they have waaaay more space. But my pub is a hole in the wall that can only fit about 50 people all crammed together. Plus, the only beer store in town where you can get Delerium Tremens right beside the local stuff still hasn't opened at all ... not even to go. And the damned sandwich shop you need in order to eat while having a pint at the beer store still isn't open. So, pffft. The pandemic isn't even slightly over in spite of all the mask-less faces at the grocery and big box stores.


On 6/20/20 4:33 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
> June 15 has come and gone... and perhaps it is worth stopping to see if the "Pandemic is Over"...   of course, by the stated definition, perhaps there never was a Pandemic, and Data and Science(tm) are prone to misrepresentation and use.

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Pandemic Over!

Marcus G. Daniels
Glen writes:

< Personally, I think Dave's prediction has obviously failed. But I'm biased because my county has only just requested "phase 3", which means MY PUB IS NOT YET OPEN! >

The dog park is open, that’s all I care about.    Drinking at home is a good reminder not to drink.

Marcus

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Re: Pandemic Over!

gepr
Bah! Puritans have convinced us the only reason to go to a public house is to get drunk. That's simply false. The public house is frequented by many non-drinkers. The purpose of the pub is to stay in touch with one's neighbors ... not merely dog-owners. One complaint Renee' has about my pub is that it's frequented by too many breeders ... children-owners; and it severely skews against those of us who do drink ... the little bastards.

On 6/22/20 12:59 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> The dog park is open, that’s all I care about.    Drinking at home is a good reminder not to drink.


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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Pandemic Over!

Frank Wimberly-2
That's really funny, Glen, to call parents "breeders and child owners".  Try to own an adolescent.  I only have one biological child but 8 descendants.  It's kind of like Covid-19 in terms of R0.

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 2:13 PM ∄ uǝlƃ <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bah! Puritans have convinced us the only reason to go to a public house is to get drunk. That's simply false. The public house is frequented by many non-drinkers. The purpose of the pub is to stay in touch with one's neighbors ... not merely dog-owners. One complaint Renee' has about my pub is that it's frequented by too many breeders ... children-owners; and it severely skews against those of us who do drink ... the little bastards.

On 6/22/20 12:59 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> The dog park is open, that’s all I care about.    Drinking at home is a good reminder not to drink.


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Re: Pandemic Over!

gepr
I'll go you 1 better. My only biological offspring was aborted before birth (thank Yog!), yet I have 5 grandchildren (by proxy). That makes me a bi-directional bastard, unrelated to my descendants and parents.

On 6/22/20 1:52 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> That's really funny, Glen, to call parents "breeders and child owners".  Try to own an adolescent.  I only have one biological child but 8 descendants.  It's kind of like Covid-19 in terms of R0.


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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Pandemic Over!

Steve Smith
In reply to this post by gepr
Well, obviously I wasn't addressing Dave's original prediction because
*I think* by his definitions, he would claim there never really *was* a
pandemic, *just* a media/liberal over-reaction to a novel virus that had
jumped species to humans to travel with us worldwide and whose
transmission and mortality rates are (very) arguably "no worse than
influenza" and by now the hysteria would have (maybe?) subdued enough
and morphed into post-hoc explanations why it "wasn't a problem anymore"?

From my perspective, the Pandemic-response (government, retail and
public) in NM has moved into a new phase.   Overall NM's statistics
suggest we are doing fairly well here.   Mary and I have worked into
going to (outdoor) dining establishments fairly regularly and find A)
the staff handles things very well; B) the other customers handle things
very well; C) the demand for these seats/tables is low enough that the
risk feels very low.    It is hard to tell if these establishments are
doing enough business to stay out of the red, but perhaps with PPP
support they *are* making it work.   I tip heavily and try to keep my
aerosolized body fluids close.  

When things started to open up here nearly a month ago, I found a *lot*
of people to bust out of their bubble a little too exuberently for my
taste, and a few times (going into big-box hardware for items I couldn't
get at my small-box alternative) I turned around and went home to come
back later...    since then, mask wearing is now required for entry and
while I do see others pull their masks down when nobody is near, at
least they aren't charging through groups of people maskless like they
were early on in the re-open.

I can't say by *any measure* that the Pandemic is over... unless of
course, as I opened the post... if I declare the conditions to be a
Pandemic were *never* real... which seems pretty hard to support.  I
feel like my level of exposure has increased from nil to tiny with my
expanded public activity.  But I would probably not go visit my 91 year
old mother without doing a 2 week self-isolation first.  Her assisted
living (in AZ) has been locked down hard since the early days.... the
larger complex is senior living community (most over 65) but her
"quadrangle" are all 80+ and have some kind of "special needs" (e.g.
help with a shower or with medicine) but far from Nursing home care
(though there is an RN on staff).  My sister lives in Tucson as well and
while she could *insist* on visiting inside the locked gates, it is
highly discouraged and it appears all of the other residents follow a
similar level of care.   So far they've had no cases in the whole
facility (600 residents?) which suggests they are doing "the right
things".   While I know I could (practically/legally) visit her in her
apartment (or take her out for the day) I'd feel criminally bad if I
handed her this virus, and more critically, injected it into her
"enclave" and somebody(s) died.

> To be fair to Dave's point, his prediction was mostly that the virus and the disease it causes would continue at whatever levels, yet "things" would return to normal. So we'd start treating it like any other risk, whether higher or lower, subjectively or objectively. So, to treat Dave's point directly, we should really look at things like people wearing masks, social distancing, businesses reopening, travel, attendance at huge right-wing Trump rallies, etc.
>
> So, these are the kinds of links we'd need:
>
> https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/state-data-and-policy-actions-to-address-coronavirus/
> https://www.unacast.com/covid19/social-distancing-scoreboard
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/06/18/every-states-rules-for-reopening-and-social-distancing/111909588/
>
> Personally, I think Dave's prediction has obviously failed. But I'm biased because my county has only just requested "phase 3", which means MY PUB IS NOT YET OPEN! Damn it. I have an alternate pub, that opened in phase 2 because they have waaaay more space. But my pub is a hole in the wall that can only fit about 50 people all crammed together. Plus, the only beer store in town where you can get Delerium Tremens right beside the local stuff still hasn't opened at all ... not even to go. And the damned sandwich shop you need in order to eat while having a pint at the beer store still isn't open. So, pffft. The pandemic isn't even slightly over in spite of all the mask-less faces at the grocery and big box stores.
>
>
> On 6/20/20 4:33 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>> June 15 has come and gone... and perhaps it is worth stopping to see if the "Pandemic is Over"...   of course, by the stated definition, perhaps there never was a Pandemic, and Data and Science(tm) are prone to misrepresentation and use.


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Re: Pandemic Over!

gepr
Yeah, I think we (Thurston) are doing about as well as Santa Fe. (See attached: I don't know if you're in SF county or not.) What tickles me is that the non-maskers think wearing a mask is about protecting yourself when it's really about protecting those around you (by analogy cf our seat belt and ATGATT argument). I've often argued that we should *encourage* nutjobs to get swastika face tattoos and put confederate flags on their trucks so that we KNOW who the idiots are. The (lack of a) mask works, too. When walking into Fred Meyer, I feel almost exactly like I feel when I go to a gun and knife show.

My mom's in a particularly bad situation. She recently broke another hip and a rib by falling out of bed. She thinks COVID-19 is a *storm* and we all have to stay in our rooms because we might die in the storm. At one point her story changed. She talked about being stung by a *bug* and the bug was flying toward another resident (she's in assisted living, but agumented with more EoL-type care -- she can't be moved to a nursing home at the moment) so she "ran" after the bug and swatted it down, saving the other resident from being infected. In micro, it's funny. And she has fun telling the story. So that's good. In macro, it's horrible because deep down, I don't think she has any idea what's happening.

I'm sure she and the others in her facility agree the pandemic's NOT over.

On 6/22/20 9:06 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

> Well, obviously I wasn't addressing Dave's original prediction because
> *I think* by his definitions, he would claim there never really *was* a
> pandemic, *just* a media/liberal over-reaction to a novel virus that had
> jumped species to humans to travel with us worldwide and whose
> transmission and mortality rates are (very) arguably "no worse than
> influenza" and by now the hysteria would have (maybe?) subdued enough
> and morphed into post-hoc explanations why it "wasn't a problem anymore"?
>
> From my perspective, the Pandemic-response (government, retail and
> public) in NM has moved into a new phase.   Overall NM's statistics
> suggest we are doing fairly well here.   Mary and I have worked into
> going to (outdoor) dining establishments fairly regularly and find A)
> the staff handles things very well; B) the other customers handle things
> very well; C) the demand for these seats/tables is low enough that the
> risk feels very low.    It is hard to tell if these establishments are
> doing enough business to stay out of the red, but perhaps with PPP
> support they *are* making it work.   I tip heavily and try to keep my
> aerosolized body fluids close.  
>
> When things started to open up here nearly a month ago, I found a *lot*
> of people to bust out of their bubble a little too exuberently for my
> taste, and a few times (going into big-box hardware for items I couldn't
> get at my small-box alternative) I turned around and went home to come
> back later...    since then, mask wearing is now required for entry and
> while I do see others pull their masks down when nobody is near, at
> least they aren't charging through groups of people maskless like they
> were early on in the re-open.
>
> I can't say by *any measure* that the Pandemic is over... unless of
> course, as I opened the post... if I declare the conditions to be a
> Pandemic were *never* real... which seems pretty hard to support.  I
> feel like my level of exposure has increased from nil to tiny with my
> expanded public activity.  But I would probably not go visit my 91 year
> old mother without doing a 2 week self-isolation first.  Her assisted
> living (in AZ) has been locked down hard since the early days.... the
> larger complex is senior living community (most over 65) but her
> "quadrangle" are all 80+ and have some kind of "special needs" (e.g.
> help with a shower or with medicine) but far from Nursing home care
> (though there is an RN on staff).  My sister lives in Tucson as well and
> while she could *insist* on visiting inside the locked gates, it is
> highly discouraged and it appears all of the other residents follow a
> similar level of care.   So far they've had no cases in the whole
> facility (600 residents?) which suggests they are doing "the right
> things".   While I know I could (practically/legally) visit her in her
> apartment (or take her out for the day) I'd feel criminally bad if I
> handed her this virus, and more critically, injected it into her
> "enclave" and somebody(s) died.
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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Pandemic Over!

jon zingale
In our recent all-hands meeting at work, we talked quite
a bit about COVID-19 data and in particular the statistics
related to nursing homes in the US.

‘Playing Russian Roulette’: Nursing Homes Told to Take the Infected
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/us/nursing-homes-coronavirus.html

From the data we discussed, a surprising amount of COVID deaths in many
states are in nursing homes. 80% of the deaths in Rhode Island, for
instance.

Many states do not declare the mortality rates for their nursing homes
and Arizona, perhaps pulling-a-China, declares a number far less than
others.



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Re: Pandemic Over!

gepr
Yep. I forget when it happened, April I think. But soon after my mom's facility locked down, she told me she saw 9 bodies in the lobby on gurneys. I have no way of knowing if she actually saw that, imagined it, saw it on the news, or what. My sister's the executor with PoA and such. So I haven't tried to find out if it was true or not.

And, really, it's irrelevant. All this focus on number of deaths and even infections is myopic. The *real* costs should be understood as functions of our infrastructure, including the psychological well-being of  those proximal to the victims. We've demonstrated to ourselves and the world that our idiotic fetishization of individualism, including the galling and horrific experiment of "diverse responses" amongst the different states and counties, increases suffering. Any utilitarian or consequentialist would laugh at our fetish if it weren't so horrifying.

It's fine when our feds are run by someone competent like Obama (or even the barely competent like Bush) and we have small cliques of moronic anti-government types [ptouie] running around spouting nonsense. But when given an inch, those morons will take a whole mile and kill people [†] willy-nilly just to "thin the herd".

Nursing homes or whole states pulling-Chinas and hiding deaths feeds into such rhetoric. It normalizes them and sets precedent for policies and procedures (i.e. infrastructure) to keep such things quiet. So you're on the nose to point that out. (I hope we're all on board with FAIR: https://www.go-fair.org/fair-principles/.)

I realize Dave's argument is that people simply won't care if my mom dies alone with a broken hip and rib, shouting into the air that she's shit herself as some distraught nurse tries to help. But what those people don't understand is that such events *ripple* out, to me, beyond me, into the zeitgeist we see in the streets. Speaking of which, I WANT THIS so bad: https://www.go-fair.org/fair-principles/


[†] Is there a difference between killing and letting die? I'm not confident.

On 6/23/20 8:02 AM, Jon Zingale wrote:

> In our recent all-hands meeting at work, we talked quite
> a bit about COVID-19 data and in particular the statistics
> related to nursing homes in the US.
>
> ‘Playing Russian Roulette’: Nursing Homes Told to Take the Infected
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/us/nursing-homes-coronavirus.html
>
> From the data we discussed, a surprising amount of COVID deaths in many
> states are in nursing homes. 80% of the deaths in Rhode Island, for
> instance.
>
> Many states do not declare the mortality rates for their nursing homes
> and Arizona, perhaps pulling-a-China, declares a number far less than
> others.


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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Pandemic Over!

gepr
Ha! Wrong link. This is what I want: https://www.instagram.com/p/CBwJP4iDzxB/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

On 6/23/20 9:17 AM, ∄ uǝlƃ wrote:
> Speaking of which, I WANT THIS so bad: https://www.go-fair.org/fair-principles/

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Pandemic Over!

Steve Smith
In reply to this post by gepr
Glen -
> Yeah, I think we (Thurston) are doing about as well as Santa Fe. (See attached: I don't know if you're in SF county or not.)
I suspect there are a lot of locales where things are *mostly* under
control...  I hope your Pub can find a way to establish some outdoor
space... that has been the upside for me, places which could have had
outdoor before are now making it happen.

I'm technically in the county (by about a 1000 meters), but my public
engagement is split between SF co, Los Alamos co, and Rio Arriba co... 
Each county has it's own presumed demographic/behaviour characteristics
around this pandemic...   I DO feel mildly different in each community.  

My primary community of engagement is Pojoaque (grocery, hardware,
takeout, eat-outside) where all businesses have to follow the Pueblo
guidelines which took about a week to normalize after each state-wide
change, but became very consistent/normalized across businesses (they
effectively all have the same landlord which appears to provide very
good consistency).   Espanola was where I felt the most "wild west"
response right after the first letup...  lots of traffic (and aggressive
driving, though that may have just been *my* not having driven in
traffic for months?), but they have normalized to state/regional
standards well.   The same guys who would have charged into Lowes Home
Improvement there without a mask a month ago are now carrying it to the
6-ft spaced lineup to get in and donning it there or at least as they
approach the entrance where it is required *for entry* and inside I've
not seen anyone unmask when they were near anyone else.

> What tickles me is that the non-maskers think wearing a mask is about protecting yourself when it's really about protecting those around you (by analogy cf our seat belt and ATGATT argument).
Though I think the risk presented by not wearing a mask to others is
much more direct than the seatbelt/helmet where only (mostly) emergency
response personnel have to be confronted directly with the consequences
of non-compliance.  I haven't met/seen any angry anti-maskers (just
scofflaw types) but the ones I see on the idiot box seem convinced that
masks are a conspiracy against the population and not only resent being
"forced" to participate in the hoax, but feel compelled to chide
everyone else who might choose to participate.   As if anti-helmet
bikers made fun of helmet wearers with the accusation: "don't you know
that nobody dies from head-injuries, that's a liberal media hoax!"
>  I've often argued that we should *encourage* nutjobs to get swastika face tattoos and put confederate flags on their trucks so that we KNOW who the idiots are. The (lack of a) mask works, too. When walking into Fred Meyer, I feel almost exactly like I feel when I go to a gun and knife show.
That was how Lowe's felt to me the couple of times I turned around and
left.   On one of my first trips to the grocery in Los Alamos, I did
encounter someone wearing a bright red Trump 2020 mask...   I'm still a
little surprised there are not more masks being used as bumper stickers...
> My mom's in a particularly bad situation. She recently broke another hip and a rib by falling out of bed. She thinks COVID-19 is a *storm* and we all have to stay in our rooms because we might die in the storm. At one point her story changed. She talked about being stung by a *bug* and the bug was flying toward another resident (she's in assisted living, but agumented with more EoL-type care -- she can't be moved to a nursing home at the moment) so she "ran" after the bug and swatted it down, saving the other resident from being infected. In micro, it's funny. And she has fun telling the story. So that's good. In macro, it's horrible because deep down, I don't think she has any idea what's happening.

That's an interesting anecdote... I'm glad she is enjoying the moment
however she can.  My mother isn't quite that confused, but it has been a
moment to observe her own mental/emotional state.   Her TV is stuck on
the Fox Channel.   But she is also very compliant and her facility was
being very careful right from the start.   I am sure there was a period
of time where what was coming out of the TV was in acute opposition to
what her facility and family (including my sister's family near her
whose TV is also tuned only to Fox) were telling her.   "This is real
and it is especially important for YOU to be careful." Within a few
weeks, she was actually criticizing the one woman in her area who wears
a red-hat full time who was charging around the facility unmasked trying
to talk up-close, unmasked and  face-to-face using Janine Pirro's style
of communication.    She joins us biweekly on a zoom meeting which she
has to be helped through signing on (over the phone) each time. 

My maternal grandfather lived with us twice as I grew up (age 3-4 and
8-9).  He was born before automobiles and lost his first wife in the
1918 influenza....   and while I think his cognition was fine, his
life-experience was just out of sync with the "modern world"...   he
truly didn't seem to track most of what was happening outside of the home. 

- Steve




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Re: Pandemic Over!

Steve Smith
In reply to this post by jon zingale
Jon -
> From the data we discussed, a surprising amount of COVID deaths in many
> states are in nursing homes. 80% of the deaths in Rhode Island, for
> instance.
>
> Many states do not declare the mortality rates for their nursing homes
> and Arizona, perhaps pulling-a-China, declares a number far less than
> others.

I didn't know that was afoot in AZ.   I understand having a with/without
number, but mixing them willy-nilly into statistics is misleading of course.

- Steve



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Re: Pandemic Over!

thompnickson2
Glen,

If I am entirely honest, I would have to admit I don't know what's going on either.

I actually know of no person who has the disease.  I have known of people killed in car accidents, so I know they exist; ditto bicycle accidents.  But aside from the media, I have no knowledge of covid.  But I am a good citizen, so I believe.

Dave, don't get started on me.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 10:29 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pandemic Over!

Jon -
> From the data we discussed, a surprising amount of COVID deaths in
> many states are in nursing homes. 80% of the deaths in Rhode Island,
> for instance.
>
> Many states do not declare the mortality rates for their nursing homes
> and Arizona, perhaps pulling-a-China, declares a number far less than
> others.

I didn't know that was afoot in AZ.   I understand having a with/without number, but mixing them willy-nilly into statistics is misleading of course.

- Steve



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Re: Pandemic Over!

Marcus G. Daniels
In reply to this post by gepr
Glen writes:

< I realize Dave's argument is that people simply won't care if my mom dies alone with a broken hip and rib, shouting into the air that she's shit herself as some distraught nurse tries to help. But what those people don't understand is that such events *ripple* out, to me, beyond me, into the zeitgeist we see in the streets. >

Coming back from the park yesterday there was a man with a bicycle.   I think it was a found object.   (I see that a lot where homeless folks have a pile of random stuff that doesn't seem to serve any obvious purpose.   And the piles change from time to time.)
The bicycle wasn't being used for transport.    The man was somehow interfacing the bicycle with the door of a broken down motor home, a residence.   It wasn't like he was using a pedal or the handlebars to break a window, he was just kind of rolling it up against the door again and again to see what would happen.   Maybe he was imagining how to build a bike holder for the motor home, and it was where he was living.  Why not keep this found object?   I don't know.  It was like he was fascinated by the mismatch of the surfaces of the two objects.   I saw him again when I left a half hour later and he was walking around randomly in the street with the bicycle, slowing cars.   He did not act in any menacing way but made eye contact with people.   He had not had a shower in a long time and did not appear healthy.

I suspect that when people see all this indifference to public health, it doesn't lead to more indifference.

Marcus

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Re: Pandemic Over!

thompnickson2
Marcus,

Powerful image.  But didn't you leave a NOT out of your last sentence?  Or
perhaps not?

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 11:16 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pandemic Over!

Glen writes:

< I realize Dave's argument is that people simply won't care if my mom dies
alone with a broken hip and rib, shouting into the air that she's shit
herself as some distraught nurse tries to help. But what those people don't
understand is that such events *ripple* out, to me, beyond me, into the
zeitgeist we see in the streets. >

Coming back from the park yesterday there was a man with a bicycle.   I
think it was a found object.   (I see that a lot where homeless folks have a
pile of random stuff that doesn't seem to serve any obvious purpose.   And
the piles change from time to time.)
The bicycle wasn't being used for transport.    The man was somehow
interfacing the bicycle with the door of a broken down motor home, a
residence.   It wasn't like he was using a pedal or the handlebars to break
a window, he was just kind of rolling it up against the door again and again
to see what would happen.   Maybe he was imagining how to build a bike
holder for the motor home, and it was where he was living.  Why not keep
this found object?   I don't know.  It was like he was fascinated by the
mismatch of the surfaces of the two objects.   I saw him again when I left a
half hour later and he was walking around randomly in the street with the
bicycle, slowing cars.   He did not act in any menacing way but made eye
contact with people.   He had not had a shower in a long time and did not
appear healthy.

I suspect that when people see all this indifference to public health, it
doesn't lead to more indifference.

Marcus

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Re: Pandemic Over!

Marcus G. Daniels
Oops, yes, thanks for that.  Divided attention..

On 6/23/20, 10:19 AM, "Friam on behalf of [hidden email]" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    Marcus,

    Powerful image.  But didn't you leave a NOT out of your last sentence?  Or
    perhaps not?

    Nicholas Thompson
    Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
    Clark University
    [hidden email]
    https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
    Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 11:16 AM
    To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
    Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pandemic Over!

    Glen writes:

    < I realize Dave's argument is that people simply won't care if my mom dies
    alone with a broken hip and rib, shouting into the air that she's shit
    herself as some distraught nurse tries to help. But what those people don't
    understand is that such events *ripple* out, to me, beyond me, into the
    zeitgeist we see in the streets. >

    Coming back from the park yesterday there was a man with a bicycle.   I
    think it was a found object.   (I see that a lot where homeless folks have a
    pile of random stuff that doesn't seem to serve any obvious purpose.   And
    the piles change from time to time.)
    The bicycle wasn't being used for transport.    The man was somehow
    interfacing the bicycle with the door of a broken down motor home, a
    residence.   It wasn't like he was using a pedal or the handlebars to break
    a window, he was just kind of rolling it up against the door again and again
    to see what would happen.   Maybe he was imagining how to build a bike
    holder for the motor home, and it was where he was living.  Why not keep
    this found object?   I don't know.  It was like he was fascinated by the
    mismatch of the surfaces of the two objects.   I saw him again when I left a
    half hour later and he was walking around randomly in the street with the
    bicycle, slowing cars.   He did not act in any menacing way but made eye
    contact with people.   He had not had a shower in a long time and did not
    appear healthy.

    I suspect that when people see all this indifference to public health, it
    doesn't lead to more indifference.

    Marcus

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Re: Pandemic Over!

gepr
Ha! Now I'm completely confused. I thought you were saying:

  Seeing indifference to public health *leads* to outrage.

which is what it does to me. But what you were actually saying is:

  Seeing indifference to public health leads to indifference.

I'm not so sure. It hearkens to the other thread on the Markovity of sedimentary flow and the scope of our composition functions. When Renee' was getting her Bachelor's, one of her assignments was to do a "window assessment" of our neighborhood's public health. So, we drove around on most of the streets in a 2.5 mile radius one afternoon. I drove while she took notes. Based on our conversations, her compositional scope increased by a HUGE amount. She was already primed to see things in a particular way. But that little tour had a huge impact.

That argues that witnessing indifference doesn't necessarily reinforce indifference *if* one is already tuned to seeing injustice. I suppose it does reinforce in- and out-group identity, though. "Which side are you on, boy? Which side are you on?"


On 6/23/20 10:27 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> Oops, yes, thanks for that.  Divided attention..
>
> On 6/23/20, 10:19 AM, "Friam on behalf of [hidden email]" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>     Marcus,
>
>     Powerful image.  But didn't you leave a NOT out of your last sentence?  Or
>     perhaps not?
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
>     Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 11:16 AM
>     To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
>     Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pandemic Over!
> [...]
>
>     I suspect that when people see all this indifference to public health, it
>     doesn't lead to more indifference.


--
☣ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Pandemic Over!

Marcus G. Daniels
I meant the latter.  Strengthening the boundary between in-group and out-group is one possible cognitive adaptation.    I'm thinking of another, which is to just accept that this is how it is and try to anticipate a future which is more that way.   I'm guessing that is more common because it is locally actionable.  

The other day on the local NextDoor.com feed there was a self-described 98 year old veteran who was upset about the "shooting" outside his house.   He said that Tucker Carlson had said he should go outside and shoot the Antifa troublemakers himself.    In fact the "shooting" is fireworks, which has been ongoing for some time now.

Marcus

On 6/23/20, 10:35 AM, "Friam on behalf of ∄ uǝlƃ" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:

    Ha! Now I'm completely confused. I thought you were saying:

      Seeing indifference to public health *leads* to outrage.

    which is what it does to me. But what you were actually saying is:

      Seeing indifference to public health leads to indifference.

    I'm not so sure. It hearkens to the other thread on the Markovity of sedimentary flow and the scope of our composition functions. When Renee' was getting her Bachelor's, one of her assignments was to do a "window assessment" of our neighborhood's public health. So, we drove around on most of the streets in a 2.5 mile radius one afternoon. I drove while she took notes. Based on our conversations, her compositional scope increased by a HUGE amount. She was already primed to see things in a particular way. But that little tour had a huge impact.

    That argues that witnessing indifference doesn't necessarily reinforce indifference *if* one is already tuned to seeing injustice. I suppose it does reinforce in- and out-group identity, though. "Which side are you on, boy? Which side are you on?"


    On 6/23/20 10:27 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
    > Oops, yes, thanks for that.  Divided attention..
    >
    > On 6/23/20, 10:19 AM, "Friam on behalf of [hidden email]" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote:
    >
    >     Marcus,
    >
    >     Powerful image.  But didn't you leave a NOT out of your last sentence?  Or
    >     perhaps not?
    >
    >     -----Original Message-----
    >     From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
    >     Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2020 11:16 AM
    >     To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
    >     Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Pandemic Over!
    > [...]
    >
    >     I suspect that when people see all this indifference to public health, it
    >     doesn't lead to more indifference.


    --
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Re: Pandemic Over!

jon zingale
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by gepr
Glen says: "[†] Is there a difference between killing and letting die?
I'm not confident."

At some point, we should probably flesh out a model of the legal system for
our discussion of *free will*. As a special case, we could investigate torts.
We agree to a paradox at the start, namely, that driving is unsafe and driving
is necessary. Institutionally we determine a limit whereby k individuals
are *let to die* by the system while the k+1st individual is *killed* by the
system. Should we expect torts to appear as epiphenomena in any system
where we impose a *free will* condition?



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