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Open Letter, draft #2

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Nick Thompson

Open Letter, draft #2

Hi, all,

Here is a new draft of the open letter, pared down to meet the New Mexican’s requirements. I have a few signatories, would love some more. I will bring the letter with me to our service on Friday. Even if you don’t plan to sign, please feel free to point out typos and other infelicities.

Nick

To the New Mexican

We are industrial researchers and retired college professors, living in Santa Fe. We urge all Santa Feans to vote, but particularly young voters and their parents. Institutions of learning and their students are under stress. Every day, we meet young people as dedicated to learning as our best research students in the 70’s and 80’s, yet are working as cashiers, ride hail drivers, waiters and waitresses. Under present conditions, these talented young people cannot afford to go to university and, without that training, will never take up the leadership positions their talent should make possible. The nation will need these students as our generation retires from institutes, government laboratories, colleges, and universities. Please take time to vote and to tell your representatives to support education at every level. The future safety and prosperity of our nation depends on it.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Tom Johnson

Re: Open Letter, draft #2

I will sign on, Nick.

Tom Johnson, Professor Emeritus, San Francisco State University

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data

http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
============================================

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:09 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, all,

Here is a new draft of the open letter, pared down to meet the New Mexican’s requirements. I have a few signatories, would love some more. I will bring the letter with me to our service on Friday. Even if you don’t plan to sign, please feel free to point out typos and other infelicities.

Nick

To the New Mexican
We are industrial researchers and retired college professors, living in Santa Fe. We urge all Santa Feans to vote, but particularly young voters and their parents. Institutions of learning and their students are under stress. Every day, we meet young people as dedicated to learning as our best research students in the 70’s and 80’s, yet are working as cashiers, ride hail drivers, waiters and waitresses. Under present conditions, these talented young people cannot afford to go to university and, without that training, will never take up the leadership positions their talent should make possible. The nation will need these students as our generation retires from institutes, government laboratories, colleges, and universities. Please take time to vote and to tell your representatives to support education at every level. The future safety and prosperity of our nation depends on it.

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: Open Letter, draft #2

Thanks, Tom,

Still trying to figure out logistics. I have written the NM-ican to find out how to submit a letter from many signers, but got no response. Do you have any experience with this?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 11:14 AM
To: Friam@redfish. com <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

I will sign on, Nick.

Tom Johnson, Professor Emeritus, San Francisco State University

http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
============================================

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:09 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, all,

Here is a new draft of the open letter, pared down to meet the New Mexican’s requirements. I have a few signatories, would love some more. I will bring the letter with me to our service on Friday. Even if you don’t plan to sign, please feel free to point out typos and other infelicities.

Nick

To the New Mexican
We are industrial researchers and retired college professors, living in Santa Fe. We urge all Santa Feans to vote, but particularly young voters and their parents. Institutions of learning and their students are under stress. Every day, we meet young people as dedicated to learning as our best research students in the 70’s and 80’s, yet are working as cashiers, ride hail drivers, waiters and waitresses. Under present conditions, these talented young people cannot afford to go to university and, without that training, will never take up the leadership positions their talent should make possible. The nation will need these students as our generation retires from institutes, government laboratories, colleges, and universities. Please take time to vote and to tell your representatives to support education at every level. The future safety and prosperity of our nation depends on it.

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Tom Johnson

Re: Open Letter, draft #2

Yes, but not with multiple signatories. Sorry.

http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
============================================

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 11:45 AM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, Tom,

Still trying to figure out logistics. I have written the NM-ican to find out how to submit a letter from many signers, but got no response. Do you have any experience with this?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 11:14 AM
To: Friam@redfish. com <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

I will sign on, Nick.
Tom Johnson, Professor Emeritus, San Francisco State University

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)               505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:09 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, all,

Here is a new draft of the open letter, pared down to meet the New Mexican’s requirements. I have a few signatories, would love some more. I will bring the letter with me to our service on Friday. Even if you don’t plan to sign, please feel free to point out typos and other infelicities.

Nick

To the New Mexican
We are industrial researchers and retired college professors, living in Santa Fe. We urge all Santa Feans to vote, but particularly young voters and their parents. Institutions of learning and their students are under stress. Every day, we meet young people as dedicated to learning as our best research students in the 70’s and 80’s, yet are working as cashiers, ride hail drivers, waiters and waitresses. Under present conditions, these talented young people cannot afford to go to university and, without that training, will never take up the leadership positions their talent should make possible.  The nation will need these students as our generation retires from institutes, government laboratories, colleges, and universities. Please take time to vote and to tell your representatives to support education at every level. The future safety and prosperity of our nation depends on it.

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

John Kennison

Re: Open Letter, draft #2

I like the idea of a non-sequential machine, or perhaps, a being, whose operation is NOT determined by knowing how its component parts function. I don’t see how to go about constructing such a thing, unless I assume that there are laws of physics which remain undiscovered. So for now, I will settle on trying to describe a ``machine’’ which is not a sequential machine. I think that Rosen is right in saying that having a parallel machine (in which various operations happen simultaneously) will not do the trick because given any parallel machine one can define a sequential machine that functions in the same way. One might make a machine in which the outputs only happen with a certain specified probability, but I don’t think that is different enough. So I rephrase the problem as describing an entity that receives inputs and produces outputs that is cannot be duplicated (or reasonably modeled) by a probabilistic sequential machine (one in which the outputs happen with a specified probability). I thought of starting with a sequential machine, which has rules for how to react to inputs when in a given state. But now let’s suppose that the rules may change. The entity is capable of learning new rules. This seems more biological –the entity can reprogram itself. But I find that naive ways of reprograming can probably be duplicated by a sequential machine. For example, if the machine reprograms when dissatisfied with previous performance, then there is a new state, of being dissatisfied, and the reprograming activity can, it seems, be re-expressed as more sophisticated rules for producing an output.

--John

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Tom Johnson <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 4:23:01 PM
To: Friam@redfish. com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

Yes, but not with multiple signatories. Sorry.

http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
============================================

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 11:45 AM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, Tom,

Still trying to figure out logistics. I have written the NM-ican to find out how to submit a letter from many signers, but got no response. Do you have any experience with this?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 11:14 AM
To: Friam@redfish. com <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

I will sign on, Nick.

Tom Johnson, Professor Emeritus, San Francisco State University

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)               505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data

http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:09 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, all,

Here is a new draft of the open letter, pared down to meet the New Mexican’s requirements. I have a few signatories, would love some more. I will bring the letter with me to our service on Friday. Even if you don’t plan to sign, please feel free to point out typos and other infelicities.

Nick

To the New Mexican

We are industrial researchers and retired college professors, living in Santa Fe. We urge all Santa Feans to vote, but particularly young voters and their parents. Institutions of learning and their students are under stress. Every day, we meet young people as dedicated to learning as our best research students in the 70’s and 80’s, yet are working as cashiers, ride hail drivers, waiters and waitresses. Under present conditions, these talented young people cannot afford to go to university and, without that training, will never take up the leadership positions their talent should make possible.  The nation will need these students as our generation retires from institutes, government laboratories, colleges, and universities. Please take time to vote and to tell your representatives to support education at every level. The future safety and prosperity of our nation depends on it.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Open Letter, draft #2

Look no further than me. I don't know how my component parts work.

John, do you have a recommendation for a book on geometric algebra?

Frank

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Sat, Oct 27, 2018, 6:20 AM John Kennison <[hidden email]> wrote:

I like the idea of a non-sequential machine, or perhaps, a being, whose operation is NOT determined by knowing how its component parts function. I don’t see how to go about constructing such a thing, unless I assume that there are laws of physics which remain undiscovered. So for now, I will settle on trying to describe a ``machine’’ which is not a sequential machine. I think that Rosen is right in saying that having a parallel machine (in which various operations happen simultaneously) will not do the trick because given any parallel machine one can define a sequential machine that functions in the same way. One might make a machine in which the outputs only happen with a certain specified probability, but I don’t think that is different enough. So I rephrase the problem as describing an entity that receives inputs and produces outputs that is cannot be duplicated (or reasonably modeled) by a probabilistic sequential machine (one in which the outputs happen with a specified probability). I thought of starting with a sequential machine, which has rules for how to react to inputs when in a given state. But now let’s suppose that the rules may change. The entity is capable of learning new rules. This seems more biological –the entity can reprogram itself. But I find that naive ways of reprograming can probably be duplicated by a sequential machine. For example, if the machine reprograms when dissatisfied with previous performance, then there is a new state, of being dissatisfied, and the reprograming activity can, it seems, be re-expressed as more sophisticated rules for producing an output.

--John

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Tom Johnson <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 4:23:01 PM
To: Friam@redfish. com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

Yes, but not with multiple signatories. Sorry.

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)               505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data

http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 11:45 AM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, Tom,

Still trying to figure out logistics. I have written the NM-ican to find out how to submit a letter from many signers, but got no response. Do you have any experience with this?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 11:14 AM
To: Friam@redfish. com <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

I will sign on, Nick.

Tom Johnson, Professor Emeritus, San Francisco State University

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)               505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data

http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:09 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, all,

Here is a new draft of the open letter, pared down to meet the New Mexican’s requirements. I have a few signatories, would love some more. I will bring the letter with me to our service on Friday. Even if you don’t plan to sign, please feel free to point out typos and other infelicities.

Nick

To the New Mexican

We are industrial researchers and retired college professors, living in Santa Fe. We urge all Santa Feans to vote, but particularly young voters and their parents. Institutions of learning and their students are under stress. Every day, we meet young people as dedicated to learning as our best research students in the 70’s and 80’s, yet are working as cashiers, ride hail drivers, waiters and waitresses. Under present conditions, these talented young people cannot afford to go to university and, without that training, will never take up the leadership positions their talent should make possible.  The nation will need these students as our generation retires from institutes, government laboratories, colleges, and universities. Please take time to vote and to tell your representatives to support education at every level. The future safety and prosperity of our nation depends on it.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Open Letter, draft #2

In reply to this post by John Kennison

How idoes genetic programming with automatic function definition not achieve this?

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of John Kennison <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 6:21 AM
To: "Friam@redfish. com" <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

--John

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Tom Johnson <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 4:23:01 PM
To: Friam@redfish. com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

Yes, but not with multiple signatories. Sorry.

http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
============================================

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 11:45 AM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, Tom,

Still trying to figure out logistics. I have written the NM-ican to find out how to submit a letter from many signers, but got no response. Do you have any experience with this?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 11:14 AM
To: Friam@redfish. com <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

I will sign on, Nick.

Tom Johnson, Professor Emeritus, San Francisco State University

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)               505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data

http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:09 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, all,

Here is a new draft of the open letter, pared down to meet the New Mexican’s requirements. I have a few signatories, would love some more. I will bring the letter with me to our service on Friday. Even if you don’t plan to sign, please feel free to point out typos and other infelicities.

Nick

To the New Mexican

We are industrial researchers and retired college professors, living in Santa Fe. We urge all Santa Feans to vote, but particularly young voters and their parents. Institutions of learning and their students are under stress. Every day, we meet young people as dedicated to learning as our best research students in the 70’s and 80’s, yet are working as cashiers, ride hail drivers, waiters and waitresses. Under present conditions, these talented young people cannot afford to go to university and, without that training, will never take up the leadership positions their talent should make possible.  The nation will need these students as our generation retires from institutes, government laboratories, colleges, and universities. Please take time to vote and to tell your representatives to support education at every level. The future safety and prosperity of our nation depends on it.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

John Kennison

Re: Open Letter, draft #2

Hi Marcus, Frank, et al,

I am a mathematician who knows category theory, which Rosen seems to have found exciting. My thinking about a machine that would learn how to reprogram itself is surely at a naive level, but it seems to me that it would feel more like a being than a machine. All I know about Genetic Programming is what I just read after Googling that term and it looks like great idea. Frank's credentials are impressive but I don't know enough to, as yet, formulate a reasonable question to him.

It looks that some very sophisticated programs can evolve and reprogram themselves which means, I think, that sequential machines can do amazing things. I guess my question would be:

Is there something that animals, or more particularly humans, can do which we can prove cannot be duplicated by a sequential machine?'

I have read Dennett's "Consciousness Explained" and Hofstadter's "I am a Strange Loop". There are parts of each book which still seem vague to me, but it seems likely that the answer to the above question is "No". But then I would need a different approach to trying to figure out what Rosen might be driving at. (I once had s copy of Rosen's "Life Itself" but I can't find it now --so I ordered a used copy for about $9.).

On Geometric Algebra --my Googling of this term suggests that it has to do with what I would call tensors, which I saw briefly in an undergraduate Physics course, and very abstractly in a graduate Math course. I convinced myself they were about the same thing

--John

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 11:11:10 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

How idoes genetic programming with automatic function definition not achieve this?

--John

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Tom Johnson <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 4:23:01 PM
To: Friam@redfish. com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

Yes, but not with multiple signatories. Sorry.

http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
============================================

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 11:45 AM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, Tom,

Still trying to figure out logistics. I have written the NM-ican to find out how to submit a letter from many signers, but got no response. Do you have any experience with this?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 11:14 AM
To: Friam@redfish. com <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

I will sign on, Nick.

Tom Johnson, Professor Emeritus, San Francisco State University

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)               505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data

http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:09 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, all,

Here is a new draft of the open letter, pared down to meet the New Mexican’s requirements. I have a few signatories, would love some more. I will bring the letter with me to our service on Friday. Even if you don’t plan to sign, please feel free to point out typos and other infelicities.

Nick

To the New Mexican

We are industrial researchers and retired college professors, living in Santa Fe. We urge all Santa Feans to vote, but particularly young voters and their parents. Institutions of learning and their students are under stress. Every day, we meet young people as dedicated to learning as our best research students in the 70’s and 80’s, yet are working as cashiers, ride hail drivers, waiters and waitresses. Under present conditions, these talented young people cannot afford to go to university and, without that training, will never take up the leadership positions their talent should make possible.  The nation will need these students as our generation retires from institutes, government laboratories, colleges, and universities. Please take time to vote and to tell your representatives to support education at every level. The future safety and prosperity of our nation depends on it.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

John Kennison

Re: Open Letter, draft #2

P.S. I just realized that when Frank said "Look no further than me" he was not referring to his considerable knowledge, but to himself. It's a nice point.

From: John Kennison
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 2:32:37 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

Hi Marcus, Frank, et al,

It looks that some very sophisticated programs can evolve and reprogram themselves which means, I think, that sequential machines can do amazing things. I guess my question would be:

Is there something that animals, or more particularly humans, can do which we can prove cannot be duplicated by a sequential machine?'

--John

How idoes genetic programming with automatic function definition not achieve this?

--John

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Tom Johnson <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 4:23:01 PM
To: Friam@redfish. com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

Yes, but not with multiple signatories. Sorry.

http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
============================================

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 11:45 AM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks, Tom,

Still trying to figure out logistics. I have written the NM-ican to find out how to submit a letter from many signers, but got no response. Do you have any experience with this?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 11:14 AM
To: Friam@redfish. com <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

I will sign on, Nick.

Tom Johnson, Professor Emeritus, San Francisco State University

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)               505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data

http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:09 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, all,

Here is a new draft of the open letter, pared down to meet the New Mexican’s requirements. I have a few signatories, would love some more. I will bring the letter with me to our service on Friday. Even if you don’t plan to sign, please feel free to point out typos and other infelicities.

Nick

To the New Mexican

We are industrial researchers and retired college professors, living in Santa Fe. We urge all Santa Feans to vote, but particularly young voters and their parents. Institutions of learning and their students are under stress. Every day, we meet young people as dedicated to learning as our best research students in the 70’s and 80’s, yet are working as cashiers, ride hail drivers, waiters and waitresses. Under present conditions, these talented young people cannot afford to go to university and, without that training, will never take up the leadership positions their talent should make possible.  The nation will need these students as our generation retires from institutes, government laboratories, colleges, and universities. Please take time to vote and to tell your representatives to support education at every level. The future safety and prosperity of our nation depends on it.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Open Letter, draft #2

In reply to this post by John Kennison

John writes:

“Is there something that animals, or more particularly humans, can do which we can prove cannot be duplicated by a sequential machine?”

A sequential computer program could simply be a loop that sampled random numbers and indexed into the address space of the computer program itself (not its memory). One could make a specialized computer using a FPGA that even had an instruction to do that random dispatching. To counter the arguments of Penrose, one could do the same using quantum states.

https://www.springer.com/us/book/9781402078941

There are all kinds of physical processes that are simulated on classical supercomputers, of course.

Marcus

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Open Letter, draft #2

Sorry, John. It was a weak attempt to be humorous.

Also, I mistyped. I meant "algebraic geometry" when I was asking for a book recommendation.

Frank

On Sat, Oct 27, 2018, 12:56 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

John writes:

“Is there something that animals, or more particularly humans, can do which we can prove cannot be duplicated by a sequential machine?”

A sequential computer program could simply be a loop that sampled random numbers and indexed into the address space of the computer program itself (not its memory). One could make a specialized computer using a FPGA that even had an instruction to do that random dispatching. To counter the arguments of Penrose, one could do the same using quantum states.

https://www.springer.com/us/book/9781402078941

There are all kinds of physical processes that are simulated on classical supercomputers, of course.

Marcus

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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John Kennison

Re: Open Letter, draft #2

Hi Frank,

I didn't realize it was supposed to be a joke --it seemed like a relevant example. I'm not an algebraic geometer but:

. . . there is a historical survey in https://www.ime.usp.br/~pleite/pub/artigos/abhyankar/abhyankar.pdf

Historical Ramblings in Algebraic Geometry and Related Algebra

www.ime.usp.br

Historical Ramblings in Algebraic Geometry and Related Algebra Author(s): Shreeram S. Abhyankar Source: The American Mathematical Monthly, Vol. 83, No. 6 (Jun. - Jul ...

If you read that you can tell if you like Ahbyankar's style. He wrote a more thorough survey in 295 pages called "Algebraic Geometry for Scientists and Engineers'' (including computer scientists.

--John

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 5:53:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

Sorry, John. It was a weak attempt to be humorous.

Also, I mistyped. I meant "algebraic geometry" when I was asking for a book recommendation.

Frank

On Sat, Oct 27, 2018, 12:56 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

John writes:

“Is there something that animals, or more particularly humans, can do which we can prove cannot be duplicated by a sequential machine?”

A sequential computer program could simply be a loop that sampled random numbers and indexed into the address space of the computer program itself (not its memory). One could make a specialized computer using a FPGA that even had an instruction to do that random dispatching. To counter the arguments of Penrose, one could do the same using quantum states.

https://www.springer.com/us/book/9781402078941

There are all kinds of physical processes that are simulated on classical supercomputers, of course.

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Open Letter, draft #2

Well, I'm not a sequential machine although my wife has her doubts.

Thanks for the algebraic geometry suggestions. Jon Zingale and I will try to master the subject. Others may join us on Saturday mornings if they wish.

Frank

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://wacsequentisl mww.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Sat, Oct 27, 2018, 5:16 PM John Kennison <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Frank,

I didn't realize it was supposed to be a joke --it seemed like a relevant example. I'm not an algebraic geometer but:

. . . there is a historical survey in https://www.ime.usp.br/~pleite/pub/artigos/abhyankar/abhyankar.pdf

Historical Ramblings in Algebraic Geometry and Related Algebra

www.ime.usp.br

Historical Ramblings in Algebraic Geometry and Related Algebra Author(s): Shreeram S. Abhyankar Source: The American Mathematical Monthly, Vol. 83, No. 6 (Jun. - Jul ...

If you read that you can tell if you like Ahbyankar's style. He wrote a more thorough survey in 295 pages called "Algebraic Geometry for Scientists and Engineers'' (including computer scientists.

--John

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 5:53:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

Sorry, John. It was a weak attempt to be humorous.

Also, I mistyped. I meant "algebraic geometry" when I was asking for a book recommendation.

Frank

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Sat, Oct 27, 2018, 12:56 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

John writes:

“Is there something that animals, or more particularly humans, can do which we can prove cannot be duplicated by a sequential machine?”

A sequential computer program could simply be a loop that sampled random numbers and indexed into the address space of the computer program itself (not its memory). One could make a specialized computer using a FPGA that even had an instruction to do that random dispatching. To counter the arguments of Penrose, one could do the same using quantum states.

https://www.springer.com/us/book/9781402078941

There are all kinds of physical processes that are simulated on classical supercomputers, of course.

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: Open Letter, draft #2

Frank, Jon, John, etc.,

I wish you guys would look at Rosen. I would be happy to loan you my copy. In Chapter 4, The Concept of State, he is arguing that assumptions deep in Newtonian Mechanics preclude or constrain a discussion of biological organization (let alone, a psychological one) leading to a fallacious sense of reduceability. His argument is mathematical, and involves assumptions built into what he calls Newtonian “chronicles”, mathematical expressions that have time of occurrence on the x axis and position, or velocity, or acceleration, or … or etc. on the Y. Something about the manner in which Newton sets this all up is claimed to obscure organizational properties of systems. Somehow, the problem of organization is made to disappear. Best I can do.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 5:24 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

Well, I'm not a sequential machine although my wife has her doubts.

Thanks for the algebraic geometry suggestions. Jon Zingale and I will try to master the subject. Others may join us on Saturday mornings if they wish.

Frank

On Sat, Oct 27, 2018, 5:16 PM John Kennison <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Frank,

I didn't realize it was supposed to be a joke --it seemed like a relevant example. I'm not an algebraic geometer but:

. . . there is a historical survey in https://www.ime.usp.br/~pleite/pub/artigos/abhyankar/abhyankar.pdf
Historical Ramblings in Algebraic Geometry and Related Algebra
www.ime.usp.br
Historical Ramblings in Algebraic Geometry and Related Algebra Author(s): Shreeram S. Abhyankar Source: The American Mathematical Monthly, Vol. 83, No. 6 (Jun. - Jul ...

If you read that you can tell if you like Ahbyankar's style. He wrote a more thorough survey in 295 pages called "Algebraic Geometry for Scientists and Engineers'' (including computer scientists.

--John

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 5:53:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

Sorry, John. It was a weak attempt to be humorous.

Also, I mistyped. I meant "algebraic geometry" when I was asking for a book recommendation.

Frank
-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Sat, Oct 27, 2018, 12:56 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
John writes:

“Is there something that animals, or more particularly humans, can do which we can prove cannot be duplicated by a sequential machine?”

A sequential computer program could simply be a loop that sampled random numbers and indexed into the address space of the computer program itself (not its memory). One could make a specialized computer using a FPGA that even had an instruction to do that random dispatching. To counter the arguments of Penrose, one could do the same using quantum states.

https://www.springer.com/us/book/9781402078941

There are all kinds of physical processes that are simulated on classical supercomputers, of course.

Marcus
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

gepr

Re: Open Letter, draft #2

In reply to this post by John Kennison

The parallelism theorem of labeled transition systems is, I think, misinterpreted sometimes. It's too strong to claim that for any parallel process a sequential process can be defined that operates/funtcions the same way. The theorem relies on the existence of hidden transitions within the parallel process that don't need to be in the sequential process. So, it's better to say:

For any given parallel process where the set of observables is smaller than the set of all its states and transitions, a sequential process can be defined that has the same observable states and transitions. I.e. for any given parallel process, a sequential one can be defined that SIMULATES it. This is a core simulation principle and it's why systems engineers focus so much on validation, matching observables between the simulation and its referent.

I'm not arguing that parallelism is sufficient for machines that construct themselves. As I pointed out in the other thread, we still have deadlock (which is the computer equivalent of Rosen's primary objection). I'm just arguing that the parallelism theorem is not the right formal tool to show why parallelism is insufficient.

On 10/27/18 5:20 AM, John Kennison wrote:
> I think that Rosen is right in saying that having a parallel machine (in which various operations happen simultaneously) will not do the trick because given any parallel machine one can define a sequential machine that functions in the same way.

--
∄ uǝʃƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen