Obama/proposition 8
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Would anyone care to comment on the Obama victory and the simultaneous
passage of proposition 8 in California?
Orlando ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Massive, well-financed fear-mongering plus tons of volunteer effort from our friends in Utah. "Your church will have to perform gay marriages!" "School teachers will teach the gay lifestyle in school!" "Your marriage will crumble!"
On Nov 8, 2008, at 10:31 AM, Orlando Leibovitz wrote:
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Massive, well-financed fear-mongering plus 47% popular support of a position that contended that the opponent was evil, Muslim, Not-A-Christian, and was going to take all of our guns away.
Fortunately, that faction lost. We should not, however, lose sight of the fact that nearly half of the US population voted for McCain/Caribou-Barbie-The-World-Was-Created-6000-Years-Ago-Aren't-My-Clothes-Nice-Now-I-Want-To-Go-Shoot-Shit-From-A-Helicopter-Again. --Doug On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 5:25 PM, John Sadd <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Maybe our friends in Utah should lose their 501c3 tax exempt status.
Here is what the court actually said about requiring various religions
to perform gay marriage ceremonies;
“affording same-sex couples the opportunity to obtain the designation of marriage will not impinge upon the religious freedom of any religious organization, official, or any other person; no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples; and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs.” There was a picture taken of a sign in Grant Park on election night that said WE HAVE OVERCOME. A friend of mine was moved by it and sent it to his email list. A friend of his replied "Not all of us". In my opinion this is not a marriage issue, it is a civil rights issue. Orlando Douglas Roberts wrote: Massive, well-financed fear-mongering plus 47% popular support of a position that contended that the opponent was evil, Muslim, Not-A-Christian, and was going to take all of our guns away. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Orlando Leibovitz
This is clearly a civil rights issue. But unfortunately, I think that some of the black community and some of the Hispanic community voted for Prop. 8 reflecting some of their less progressive traditional values, in spite of their strong turn out for Obama. Prop. 8 is probably unconstitutional in any case.
Paul ************** AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other Holiday needs. Search Now. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001) ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Orlando Leibovitz
On Nov 9, 2008, at 12:09 AM, Orlando Leibovitz wrote:
... > In my opinion this is not a marriage issue, it is a civil rights > issue. And there you have the problem in a nutshell. "Gay marriage" confounds the two. One the one hand, the word "marriage" creates considerable angst on gay issues within the various religions. The recent Anglican/Episcopal split was largely over gay marriage and gay bishops. This is a complex issue where religions have to confront difficult problems within themselves. And definitely a church/state boundary. On the other hand, gay civil rights are clear: they are being violated and the strictly civil rights have to be granted immediately. "Civil union", however, may be a distasteful term to the gay community. Most of silicon valley had to deal with this within their corporate laws. They all grant gay civil rights by now. They simply had to change the concept of "partner" and insurance, spousal rights and so on were easily solved. I don't believe religions are concerned about this solution. As far as I know, the government does not object, and even allows for joint tax filing. I wonder if the word "marriage" were taken out of the equation, would it at least help obtain civil rights for gay couples? -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Consider also the relligions that have.supported and do sanctify
same-sex marriages, without regard for, indeed in spite of, the legal status of such unions, e.g. the Meetings of Friends (Quakers). On 11/9/08, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote: > On Nov 9, 2008, at 12:09 AM, Orlando Leibovitz wrote: > ... >> In my opinion this is not a marriage issue, it is a civil rights >> issue. > > And there you have the problem in a nutshell. "Gay marriage" > confounds the two. > > One the one hand, the word "marriage" creates considerable angst on > gay issues within the various religions. The recent Anglican/Episcopal > split was largely over gay marriage and gay bishops. This is a > complex issue where religions have to confront difficult problems > within themselves. And definitely a church/state boundary. > > On the other hand, gay civil rights are clear: they are being violated > and the strictly civil rights have to be granted immediately. "Civil > union", however, may be a distasteful term to the gay community. > > Most of silicon valley had to deal with this within their corporate > laws. They all grant gay civil rights by now. They simply had to > change the concept of "partner" and insurance, spousal rights and so > on were easily solved. I don't believe religions are concerned about > this solution. As far as I know, the government does not object, and > even allows for joint tax filing. > > I wonder if the word "marriage" were taken out of the equation, would > it at least help obtain civil rights for gay couples? > > -- Owen > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Owen,
In my opinion the word marriage should not be removed. I believe that civil marriage should be available to all consenting adults. Various religions can then do as they please. If, in fact, this is a civil rights (constitutional) issue then religions that violate civil liberties should, at the least, not have 501c3 status. I try to understand but am not sympathetic to religious angst about this as I would not be if you substituted black, jew, Christian, etc for the word gay. James, I am grateful to the Quakers for many of the positions they have taken. Orlando James Steiner wrote: Consider also the relligions that have.supported and do sanctify same-sex marriages, without regard for, indeed in spite of, the legal status of such unions, e.g. the Meetings of Friends (Quakers). On 11/9/08, Owen Densmore [hidden email] wrote: ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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I think someone should contribute $30,000,000 to foment a schism in the Church of the Latter Day Saints based on their internal conflicts on this issue.
-- rec -- On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Orlando Leibovitz <[hidden email]> wrote:
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I don't know, Roger. The LDS indoctrination machine is one of the more efficient operations that exists these days. It seems to supply a fairy tale that is particularly beguiling to a certain type of personality. Once that vision of sugar plums and seven levels of heaven is planted, it seems nearly impossible to uproot.
I'm sure they'd be happy to take your money, though. --Doug On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 12:02 PM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote: I think someone should contribute $30,000,000 to foment a schism in the Church of the Latter Day Saints based on their internal conflicts on this issue. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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I don't know, Doug, why don't you read this Salt Lake Tribune story about dissent within the LDS, and tell me who's making snap decisions based on doctrine.
http://www.sltrib.com/lds/ci_10797630 -- rec -- On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote: I don't know, Roger. The LDS indoctrination machine is one of the more efficient operations that exists these days. It seems to supply a fairy tale that is particularly beguiling to a certain type of personality. Once that vision of sugar plums and seven levels of heaven is planted, it seems nearly impossible to uproot. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Hey, Roger.
I lived up there near SLC for three years, right in the heart of Mormon country. I actually know quite a bit about their beliefs and practices -- both the good and the bad. For those interested in an excellent in-depth book on the history of the Mormon religion, I recommend "Under The Banner of Heaven, A Story of Violent Faith" by Jon Krakauer. During the three years that I lived in Pocatello, ID, I met a few former Mormons who had been successfully "deprogrammed" . Many of them had interesting, and sometimes dark stories to tell about the true inner social workings of their former "faith". --Doug On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote: I don't know, Doug, why don't you read this Salt Lake Tribune story about dissent within the LDS, and tell me who's making snap decisions based on doctrine. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Doug --
I'm not questioning your experience, but you seem to assert that dissent in the LDS is impossible. Yet Google found 37,500 results for a search on "prop 8 lds dissent" when I searched, after reading your first reply, to see if I had misundertood what I was talking about. -- rec -- On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote: Hey, Roger. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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No, that is not what I was suggesting, Roger. Dissent within the LDS is a proven fact: witness the FLDS/LDS split.
What I was trying to say was that if your suggestion that a monetary incentive be provided to create a schism within the LDS religion, where the intent is for one faction was to assume a more rational approach to societal diversification issues like same-sex marriages, the attempt would probably fail. The reason being that the LDS view of "proper" societal positions for men, women, and marriage aren't very rational to begin with, and they are fixed by an extremely rigid and ritualistic dogma. A dogma that succeeds to a very large extent of creating "members for life". I was, however, mildly surprised to see the issue being discussed openly in the Salt Lake Tribune. A web page, BTW, that I can no longer access. Has it been taken down, of is there a more innocent explanation? Ten years ago you would not have seen "bad" LDS news of this type appearing in a Salt Lake paper. --Doug On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote: Doug -- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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To return to the original question, I recall a discussion right after the election that said (as a previous writer pointed out) that the black community strongly supported Prop 8. The increased black vote for Obama helped Prop 8 as well. In fact--although I don't remember the exact statistics--the increased black vote in proportion to it's Yes on Prop 8 was essentially the difference in the overall result. Ironic, isn't it.
With regard to getting rid of marriage, I would support that. The state can create civil unions, a legal status with certain rights and responsibilities, and let churches deal with marriage however they want to define it. -- Russ Abbott _____________________________________________ Professor, Computer Science California State University, Los Angeles o Check out my blog at http://russabbott.blogspot.com/ On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 2:54 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote: No, that is not what I was suggesting, Roger. Dissent within the LDS is a proven fact: witness the FLDS/LDS split. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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My 9 cents worth from Discworld
OK prop 8 had first a fundamental problem in the mystical world go read http://www.amazon.com/Number-9-Cecil-Balmond/dp/3791340670/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226607344&sr=8-3 The relevance of straight 8 does not need any explanation especially with the double entendre of proposition. ( I will not include Proposition Politicians or PP - as that distracts ) Next time guys and gals go read Cecil and pick a good number or make sure you get one Growing up as I did, in what was frankly a homophobic society, it never ceased to amaze me how many great people I met who were as we now call it gay. Its time our society looked at the quality of people and not their labels Last but not least most silly laws get ignored ( In discworld they passed a law abolishing gravity because it caused so many accidents ) Lastly lastly the way government legislation moves ( backwards like a snail ) and we live in a high tech arena I will connect these words ( Brainy Gay Couples ) + ( Photoshop ) + ( Oracle - the database or any DB ) ( : ( : pete Russ Abbott wrote: To return to the original question, I recall a discussion right after the election that said (as a previous writer pointed out) that the black community strongly supported Prop 8. The increased black vote for Obama helped Prop 8 as well. In fact--although I don't remember the exact statistics--the increased black vote in proportion to it's Yes on Prop 8 was essentially the difference in the overall result. Ironic, isn't it. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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