Message from Moscow
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Perhaps "we already knew" was for most of us more like, "we suspected." But for myself, I didn't already know. To suspect seemed too far-fetched. I mean, MY telephone calls? Who'd care? It's a shock to discover that the NSA cares, and is very busy indeed.
And so we might finally rear up, and say no. I'm not suspected of anything, so get out of my life, NSA. If you insist on staying there, nothing you find can be used in court against me. Etc. Like Steve, I hope this is the beginning of a national dialogue: what kind of a country do we aspire to be? Data mining has its merits, though. The last couple of times I've flown, I was waved through security (didn't have to take off my coat or shoes; open my laptop) because clearly, the TSA has discovered and examined my blameless if eccentric life. A sort of silver lining. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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On 11/3/13, 12:28 PM, Pamela McCorduck
wrote:
Network analyses from transaction metadata addresses that -- to find something suspect. Fixing the latter just takes some lawyers, or "a little longer" (in Kissinger speak) to put together a story from progressively more privileged information. No doubt the "we knew that" crowd will be smug about it for the next 47 years.I'm not suspected of anything, so get out of my life, NSA. If you insist on staying there, nothing you find can be used in court against me. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-5
To me he seems to be a bit like Tom Sawyer: he has witnessed something bad (a process, an incident, .. I don't want to know what exactly), which should not have happened. Then he ran away and tried to hide, and now he would like to come back home and testify what he has observed. He loves his country, like any real American. This is my impression. -J. Sent from Android -------- Original message -------- From: Carl Tollander <[hidden email]> Date: 03/11/2013 05:44 (GMT+01:00) To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Message from Moscow My understanding is that it is renewable each year. There is no particular evidence that his politics are especially "green". Has he said he would especially like to get asylum in a 'western' country? Why would he risk going someplace new based on a promise of what is "legally possible"? Does it get him home or some other place he wants to get back to under more favorable conditions? C. On 11/2/13 8:05 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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I had composed a big email about the quoted statement below, but it was too wandering for my taste, so the parallel universe FruAM group, and Curl received that one. The FriAM group and Carl will get a more succinct response.
In short, there is no 'real American' for the same reason and in the same sense that there is no 'true Scotsman'. Also, a country is a lot of disparate things. -Arlo James Barnes ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
The problem is the same one government has right now: we cannot immediately know Snowden is not making up any given leak (although we probably have good reason to think not by now), but most any claim he makes we can FOIA. It is the knowledge that knowledge exists (and simple things about it) that is almost as powerful as the knowledge itself; this is the metadata the NSA (and many technologies we all enjoy) uses. I think the releases helped the average person reflect on this fact. Also, it lets us know where we stand: web encryption standards are a lot closer to being broken by sufficiently determined and supplied parties than we thought. The Onion Router network is still secure, though the default TOR client software has a hole, and obviously people's slipups are the most holey (see Silk Road takedown).
Data mining has its merits, though. The last couple of times I've flown, I was waved through security (didn't have to take off my coat or shoes; open my laptop) because clearly, the TSA has discovered and examined my blameless if eccentric life. A sort of silver lining. This seems a little bit like 'probabilistically guilty until proven innocent', though. -Arlo James Barnes ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Arlo Barnes
On 11/3/13 11:55 PM, Arlo Barnes wrote:
No true Friamer would ever say such a thing! ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Arlo Barnes
I'm not praising data mining without my permission; just saying what happened, and grateful my eccentricities didn't sent them on a witch hunt.
Yes, I understand what you're saying about the other issues, Arlo. This is an ugly moment in a civilized country. And today comes a report from a group of doctors in ethics (IMAP) that tells us that doctors and other medical workers were forced to aid in torturing political prisoners. They were told that since "these people aren't sick" the docs weren't violating their Hippocratic oath "to do no harm." I presume these doctors were also in the military, and would face court martial if they refused. Horrible. Just horrible. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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Pamela,
I think you may be letting the Doctors off too easy. Before I accept "forced", I want to see evidence of any "resistance". Did they use the tools available to them in the chain of command? I suspect this is going to turn out to be an example of the Milgram Experimental Paradigm. Essentially, they started out as doctors and ended up cooked frogs. But whaddooeyeno. nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Pamela McCorduck Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 9:58 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Message from Cambridge I'm not praising data mining without my permission; just saying what happened, and grateful my eccentricities didn't sent them on a witch hunt. Yes, I understand what you're saying about the other issues, Arlo. This is an ugly moment in a civilized country. And today comes a report from a group of doctors in ethics (IMAP) that tells us that doctors and other medical workers were forced to aid in torturing political prisoners. They were told that since "these people aren't sick" the docs weren't violating their Hippocratic oath "to do no harm." I presume these doctors were also in the military, and would face court martial if they refused. Horrible. Just horrible. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Arlo Barnes
On 11/4/13, 1:45 AM, Arlo Barnes wrote:
but in some cases.. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/11/04/how-we-know-the-nsa-had-access-to-internal-google-and-yahoo-cloud-data/ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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