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Massive, Indifferent, Brooding Silence

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Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Massive, Indifferent, Brooding Silence

No, I actually meant it, Steve. Careful or I'll start waxing nostalgic for my old NorthStar Horizon CP/M machine. Or the Amdahl 470 that replaced the IBM 360 that ran my first APL programs.

--Doug

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Roger/Sarbajit-

Doug's comment that "this" is what keeps him on the FRIAM ist was probably only partially "tongue-in-cheek".

This level of geekery is surely near and dear to half of our hearts if the other half naturally sit and puzzle at our arcane mumblings... but in defense of the other forms of geekery (including philosophical maunderings), it's all good. I really appreciate the level of engagement and interest across a broad range of topics that can be found here.

I *do* have at least 3 of these devices (or nearly) in my collection of "stuff", the more obvious being the digital readouts on my Sony Amp and my Sony CD changer as well as a (longer version?) on a rack-mount USB keyboard/trackball system designed for use with rackmount clusters.

I was expecting Sarbajit to remind me about some really obvious digital readout that is *even* more ubiquitous that I hadn't thought of. Like the car odometer or radio tuner... but they all seem to be of a species of semi-special displays.. probably not custom per model or even manufacturer, but clearly evolving and changing often. On the other hand, their interface might very well *BE* a superset or variant of what you describe here!

- Steve

Another mystery of these displays was solved for me the other day when Bunnie took his Media Lab visitors to a direct chip bonding shop in Shenzhen. On the back of the bog standard LCD display there will often be a dome of black epoxy in place of a chip. I thought they were hiding the chip, but in fact the dome covers a piece of raw silicon integrated circuit glued to the board and wired to the board with tiny wires.

-- rec --

http://learn.adafruit.com/character-lcds/overview

http://www.freaklabs.org/index.php/Blog/MIT-Media-Lab-Shenzhen-2013/MIT-Media-Lab-Shenzhen-2013-01-22-Chip-on-Board-Bare-Die-Attachment.html

freaklabs.org is off-line at the moment, but that looks like the right posting. Lady Ada's tutorial gets to the 8/4 bit bus after several pages of prelims.

Steve

Being a devotee of ancient computing devices myself, I was responding to Doug's TRS-80 ascii comment

here's what a 16x2 LCD module looks like
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hN2n9HggfCw/T2TOHEMIAsI/AAAAAAAAAAc/LrJ6uy2cNrs/s1600/lcd162b-yhy.jpg

These critters are so ubiquitous that you fail to see them. These modules have an 8 bit data bus to communicate with Z-80s, 8085 etc (nowadays though PICS, AVRs and ATMELs). They also have a facility to split the 8 bit data into 2 successive nibbles of 4 bits (ie 4 pins + 2 control pins= 6 pins). This allows for instance a 12 or 14 PIC (with 8 - 10 I/O lines) to be used to implement very small devices. The design advantage ot using these standard displays versus dedicated/custom displays is that they have no end-of-life problems. They were available 20 years ago and still seem to be going very strong with prices falling to @ US$1 per unit

Sarbajit
On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
You see, this is the kind of material that keeps me on FRIAM.

--Doug
On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:
The interface to the bog standard LCD display can use either 8 or 4 bits parallel, which only changes the number of outs you need to do to fill the line buffer, which has an 8 bit byte for each character The 8 bit character ROM often has fascinating character sets in the high half depending on where the surplus came from.

-- rec --
On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sarbajit -

Can you elaborate? I think this one just flew past me... 2 lines of 16 characters with only 4 bit indexing (alphabet of 16 characters?)... This sounds like (much) more than a digital watch (do those even exist anymore?) or even a calculator (only 1 line?).

I feel like you handed us a riddle like the sphynx!

I tried a massive, brooding, indifferent posture to Dougs posts on this one, but I could only hold the pose for a few seconds before breaking into a belly laugh appropriate only for the Buddha or Santa Claus.

- Steve
Just to update fellow FRIAMers.

The most common standard display device in the world today is the 16x2 character LCD display. The vast majority of installations use it in 4 bit mode.

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:08 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

As a courtesy to our old-fashioned (to put it politely) FRIAM list members who are still reading email on their TRS-80 ascii terminals, I will supply a synopses of the material contained in that new-fangled url thingie below: the article discusses a massive, indifferent, brooding silence.

You're welcome.
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--

Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
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Doug Roberts
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Steve Smith

Re: Massive, Indifferent, Brooding Silence

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Marcus -
> P.S. Brush with greatness: I have a copy of Knuth's seminumerical
algorithms which was once owned by Brosl Hasslacher.

Grin... *I* knew Brosl back in the CNLS (mid-80s) days, everyone who
played computers had the three volume (at the time) set of his books on
their shelves. I neither realized he was still at LANL through 2003
nor that he had passed in 2005... I'm feeling old!

I sadly lost track of a MANIAC Manual once owned by Nick Metropolis!
I used to schlep in and out of the lab on a similar schedule with Nick
(mid 90's?)... *he* was a presence, even then... I felt like I was
transported back to the days of the manhattan project!

In *my* day, The Art of Computer Programming was about all there was (or
needed to be) for the bulk of scientific and engineering programming.
It took the place of the many (very useful and high quality) libraries
so available today to all of us at the click of a link.

It was standard practice to go refresh yourself on something as simple
as a binary sort before coding it up *!inline!* in some important thing
you were doing or another. Feels grossly inefficient today, but wasn't
that different than the master craftsman who whets his blades every time
he sets out to make something... it takes but a few minutes and is a
good meditative reflection.

I'm wondering what the equivalent is today? I know it sounds
nostalgic, and I don't recommend *anyone* going back to the style of
programming ( goto ) and algorithm implementation/development I grew up
on, but I do wonder what takes it's place? The meditative/reflective
aspect?

I know I'm probably one of the younger of the elders here in this
domain, and I know some such (e.g. Doug) spend more hands-on time with
code today than I do by a longshot, and keep up (sort of) with
contemporary methods (I'm still stuck in Vi and sometimes get nostalgic
about Ed/Ex that *it* grew out of, not to mention *VIM* or the evil
Emacs!). But I know there are a new crop of power programmers here too
who might not have been born (or at least introduced to programming)
before OO methods, etc.

- Steve

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Steve Smith

Re: Massive, Indifferent, Brooding Silence

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Doug -
> No, I actually meant it, Steve. Careful or I'll start waxing
> nostalgic for my old NorthStar Horizon CP/M machine. Or the Amdahl
> 470 that replaced the IBM 360 that ran my first APL programs.
Now THAT is what I like to hear... and in fact it WAS a Northstar that I
was thinking of when I mentioned CP/M... I was but 19 at the time, you
must have been a ripe mid-twenties by then!

I'm pretty sure you don't speak (write) on FRIAM without your tongue
planted somewhere in your cheek! And I'm pretty sure most everything
that comes tumbling through here entertains you, if only your morbid
fascination...

- Steve

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Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Massive, Indifferent, Brooding Silence

Steve,

It's actually my brooding fascination, but pretty much the same principle.

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Doug -

No, I actually meant it, Steve. Careful or I'll start waxing nostalgic for my old NorthStar Horizon CP/M machine. Or the Amdahl 470 that replaced the IBM 360 that ran my first APL programs.

Now THAT is what I like to hear... and in fact it WAS a Northstar that I was thinking of when I mentioned CP/M... I was but 19 at the time, you must have been a ripe mid-twenties by then!

I'm pretty sure you don't speak (write) on FRIAM without your tongue planted somewhere in your cheek! And I'm pretty sure most everything that comes tumbling through here entertains you, if only your morbid fascination...

- Steve

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Doug Roberts
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile

Robert J. Cordingley

Re: Massive, Indifferent, Brooding Silence

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Can I get some Arcane Points for writing my first program in ISO coded Atlas Autocode on an EELM KDF9?
Robert C

On 2/5/13 12:16 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

No, I actually meant it, Steve. Careful or I'll start waxing nostalgic for my old NorthStar Horizon CP/M machine. Or the Amdahl 470 that replaced the IBM 360 that ran my first APL programs.

--Doug
On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Roger/Sarbajit-

Doug's comment that "this" is what keeps him on the FRIAM ist was probably only partially "tongue-in-cheek".

This level of geekery is surely near and dear to half of our hearts if the other half naturally sit and puzzle at our arcane mumblings... but in defense of the other forms of geekery (including philosophical maunderings), it's all good. I really appreciate the level of engagement and interest across a broad range of topics that can be found here.

I *do* have at least 3 of these devices (or nearly) in my collection of "stuff", the more obvious being the digital readouts on my Sony Amp and my Sony CD changer as well as a (longer version?) on a rack-mount USB keyboard/trackball system designed for use with rackmount clusters.

I was expecting Sarbajit to remind me about some really obvious digital readout that is *even* more ubiquitous that I hadn't thought of. Like the car odometer or radio tuner... but they all seem to be of a species of semi-special displays.. probably not custom per model or even manufacturer, but clearly evolving and changing often. On the other hand, their interface might very well *BE* a superset or variant of what you describe here!

- Steve

Another mystery of these displays was solved for me the other day when Bunnie took his Media Lab visitors to a direct chip bonding shop in Shenzhen. On the back of the bog standard LCD display there will often be a dome of black epoxy in place of a chip. I thought they were hiding the chip, but in fact the dome covers a piece of raw silicon integrated circuit glued to the board and wired to the board with tiny wires.

-- rec --

http://learn.adafruit.com/character-lcds/overview

http://www.freaklabs.org/index.php/Blog/MIT-Media-Lab-Shenzhen-2013/MIT-Media-Lab-Shenzhen-2013-01-22-Chip-on-Board-Bare-Die-Attachment.html

freaklabs.org is off-line at the moment, but that looks like the right posting. Lady Ada's tutorial gets to the 8/4 bit bus after several pages of prelims.

Steve

Being a devotee of ancient computing devices myself, I was responding to Doug's TRS-80 ascii comment

here's what a 16x2 LCD module looks like
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hN2n9HggfCw/T2TOHEMIAsI/AAAAAAAAAAc/LrJ6uy2cNrs/s1600/lcd162b-yhy.jpg

These critters are so ubiquitous that you fail to see them. These modules have an 8 bit data bus to communicate with Z-80s, 8085 etc (nowadays though PICS, AVRs and ATMELs). They also have a facility to split the 8 bit data into 2 successive nibbles of 4 bits (ie 4 pins + 2 control pins= 6 pins). This allows for instance a 12 or 14 PIC (with 8 - 10 I/O lines) to be used to implement very small devices. The design advantage ot using these standard displays versus dedicated/custom displays is that they have no end-of-life problems. They were available 20 years ago and still seem to be going very strong with prices falling to @ US$1 per unit

Sarbajit
On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
You see, this is the kind of material that keeps me on FRIAM.

--Doug
On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:
The interface to the bog standard LCD display can use either 8 or 4 bits parallel, which only changes the number of outs you need to do to fill the line buffer, which has an 8 bit byte for each character The 8 bit character ROM often has fascinating character sets in the high half depending on where the surplus came from.

-- rec --
On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sarbajit -

Can you elaborate? I think this one just flew past me... 2 lines of 16 characters with only 4 bit indexing (alphabet of 16 characters?)... This sounds like (much) more than a digital watch (do those even exist anymore?) or even a calculator (only 1 line?).

I feel like you handed us a riddle like the sphynx!

I tried a massive, brooding, indifferent posture to Dougs posts on this one, but I could only hold the pose for a few seconds before breaking into a belly laugh appropriate only for the Buddha or Santa Claus.

- Steve
Just to update fellow FRIAMers.

The most common standard display device in the world today is the 16x2 character LCD display. The vast majority of installations use it in 4 bit mode.

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 12:08 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

As a courtesy to our old-fashioned (to put it politely) FRIAM list members who are still reading email on their TRS-80 ascii terminals, I will supply a synopses of the material contained in that new-fangled url thingie below: the article discusses a massive, indifferent, brooding silence.

You're welcome.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
--

Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:505-672-8213" value="+15056728213" target="_blank">505-672-8213 - Mobile
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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--

Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-672-8213 - Mobile
============================================================
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Steve Smith

Arcane Points

Robert -

Can I get some Arcane Points for writing my first program in ISO coded Atlas Autocode on an EELM KDF9?
Robert C

I'm not sure what is required for granting Arcane Points... certainly, without help from Dr. Internet, I don't have a clue about these referencesI

I suppose there is a "sweet spot" where *at least* one other member of the group recognizes the reference... but obviously not too many. And I suppose that only makes them Obscure, not Arcane.

Merriam Webster seems to distinguish Arcane from Obscure by invoking an element of the Mysterious or the Occult.   I think there is an overtone of being therefore only known to "the Initiate".   I suppose all of our references to Obscure (or Arcane) details is motivated by rememberances of our time as "Initiates", sort of offering a "secret handshake" from an old fraternity or childhood treehouse-club?

Let's see who has an EELM KDF9 in their cupboard or a reference manual to Atlas Autocode in their bookshelf!

- Steve

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Steve Smith

Re: Arcane Points

Robert!

Even *I* think I can speak for the group giving this *Arcane Points*!

I *was* aware of the Atlas, but didn't know of Autocode before this and didn't have a clue about the English Electric LEO Marconi KDF9 ... being a Yank (AKA Murrican) and a few years your junior, I was totally unaware of these machines (KDF8,9) until now!

Sounds like Autocode was a great introduction to modern (futuristic at the time?) (Typing including Complex Numbers, Block Structure, Stropping, etc!).

And just to make you more nostalgic: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/atlas_autocode_manual/

I'm hoping someone can come up with a strawman method for evaluating "Arcane Points". On the traditional scale of 1-10 I'd be tempted to give you a 9 (to avoid grade inflation) but can't decide if the KDF9 implementation being of Germanium Diodes instead of Valves (Vacuum Tubes) should raise or lower that number?

There does seem to be a system developed for Figure Skating (International Code of Points).   But it just begs questions like "what are the Salchow or Triple Lutz of FRIAM posts?"

Actually, I was recently inspired to think that some of the conversations here are a lot like "Curling", another Obscure (Arcane?) Olympic Sport performed on ice!

- Steve
PS... YES I do have better things to do with my time, which I suspect is precisely why I'm being a "Doug with a Bone" here!

Robert -

Can I get some Arcane Points for writing my first program in ISO coded Atlas Autocode on an EELM KDF9?
Robert C

I'm not sure what is required for granting Arcane Points... certainly, without help from Dr. Internet, I don't have a clue about these referencesI

I suppose there is a "sweet spot" where *at least* one other member of the group recognizes the reference... but obviously not too many. And I suppose that only makes them Obscure, not Arcane.

Merriam Webster seems to distinguish Arcane from Obscure by invoking an element of the Mysterious or the Occult.   I think there is an overtone of being therefore only known to "the Initiate".   I suppose all of our references to Obscure (or Arcane) details is motivated by rememberances of our time as "Initiates", sort of offering a "secret handshake" from an old fraternity or childhood treehouse-club?

Let's see who has an EELM KDF9 in their cupboard or a reference manual to Atlas Autocode in their bookshelf!

- Steve
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Robert J. Cordingley

Re: Arcane Points

I was amazed how much info there was in Wikipedia and had come across the Edinburgh Univ. materials earlier. Another cultural difference: we used punch tape not cards. Meditate on the pros and cons of that with a 256KB RAM KDF9 and overnight turnaround!
Thanks
Robert C

PS and I'd forgotten about the underlining thing which might raise one's AP? R

On 2/5/13 2:28 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Robert!

Even *I* think I can speak for the group giving this *Arcane Points*!

I *was* aware of the Atlas, but didn't know of Autocode before this and didn't have a clue about the English Electric LEO Marconi KDF9 ... being a Yank (AKA Murrican) and a few years your junior, I was totally unaware of these machines (KDF8,9) until now!

Sounds like Autocode was a great introduction to modern (futuristic at the time?) (Typing including Complex Numbers, Block Structure, Stropping, etc!).

And just to make you more nostalgic: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/scans/atlas_autocode_manual/

I'm hoping someone can come up with a strawman method for evaluating "Arcane Points". On the traditional scale of 1-10 I'd be tempted to give you a 9 (to avoid grade inflation) but can't decide if the KDF9 implementation being of Germanium Diodes instead of Valves (Vacuum Tubes) should raise or lower that number?

There does seem to be a system developed for Figure Skating (International Code of Points).   But it just begs questions like "what are the Salchow or Triple Lutz of FRIAM posts?"

Actually, I was recently inspired to think that some of the conversations here are a lot like "Curling", another Obscure (Arcane?) Olympic Sport performed on ice!

- Steve
PS... YES I do have better things to do with my time, which I suspect is precisely why I'm being a "Doug with a Bone" here!
Robert -

Can I get some Arcane Points for writing my first program in ISO coded Atlas Autocode on an EELM KDF9?
Robert C

I'm not sure what is required for granting Arcane Points... certainly, without help from Dr. Internet, I don't have a clue about these referencesI

I suppose there is a "sweet spot" where *at least* one other member of the group recognizes the reference... but obviously not too many. And I suppose that only makes them Obscure, not Arcane.

Merriam Webster seems to distinguish Arcane from Obscure by invoking an element of the Mysterious or the Occult.   I think there is an overtone of being therefore only known to "the Initiate".   I suppose all of our references to Obscure (or Arcane) details is motivated by rememberances of our time as "Initiates", sort of offering a "secret handshake" from an old fraternity or childhood treehouse-club?

Let's see who has an EELM KDF9 in their cupboard or a reference manual to Atlas Autocode in their bookshelf!

- Steve
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Nick Thompson

Re: Arcane Points

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

How about A.P.’s for a word processor called Samna running on cpm on a computer called a Rainbow? Had some features that Word has yet to introduce.

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 1:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Arcane Points

Robert -

Can I get some Arcane Points for writing my first program in ISO coded Atlas Autocode on an EELM KDF9?
Robert C

Steve Smith

Re: Arcane Points

Nick -

There have to be *some* APs in there for you... certainly your reference to the old Dec RAINBOW kicked a few neurons loose. Samna rings a bell, didn't they get bought up by Lotus? This kicks loose a cascade of neurons around the whole spreadsheet legacy of visicalc/123/improv!

Thanks, I'll be up all night dreaming pivot tables and projections of OLAP hypercubes!

- Steve

How about A.P.’s for a word processor called Samna running on cpm on a computer called a Rainbow? Had some features that Word has yet to introduce.

N

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 1:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Arcane Points

Robert -

Can I get some Arcane Points for writing my first program in ISO coded Atlas Autocode on an EELM KDF9?
Robert C

I'm not sure what is required for granting Arcane Points... certainly, without help from Dr. Internet, I don't have a clue about these referencesI

I suppose there is a "sweet spot" where *at least* one other member of the group recognizes the reference... but obviously not too many. And I suppose that only makes them Obscure, not Arcane.

Merriam Webster seems to distinguish Arcane from Obscure by invoking an element of the Mysterious or the Occult.   I think there is an overtone of being therefore only known to "the Initiate".   I suppose all of our references to Obscure (or Arcane) details is motivated by rememberances of our time as "Initiates", sort of offering a "secret handshake" from an old fraternity or childhood treehouse-club?

Let's see who has an EELM KDF9 in their cupboard or a reference manual to Atlas Autocode in their bookshelf!

- Steve
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Arcane Points

Three words: Rainbow, Word Perfect.

On Feb 5, 2013 9:10 PM, "Steve Smith" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick -

There have to be *some* APs in there for you... certainly your reference to the old Dec RAINBOW kicked a few neurons loose. Samna rings a bell, didn't they get bought up by Lotus? This kicks loose a cascade of neurons around the whole spreadsheet legacy of visicalc/123/improv!

Thanks, I'll be up all night dreaming pivot tables and projections of OLAP hypercubes!

- Steve
How about A.P.’s for a word processor called Samna running on cpm on a computer called a Rainbow? Had some features that Word has yet to introduce.

N

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 1:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Arcane Points

Robert -

Can I get some Arcane Points for writing my first program in ISO coded Atlas Autocode on an EELM KDF9?
Robert C

I'm not sure what is required for granting Arcane Points... certainly, without help from Dr. Internet, I don't have a clue about these referencesI

I suppose there is a "sweet spot" where *at least* one other member of the group recognizes the reference... but obviously not too many. And I suppose that only makes them Obscure, not Arcane.

Merriam Webster seems to distinguish Arcane from Obscure by invoking an element of the Mysterious or the Occult.   I think there is an overtone of being therefore only known to "the Initiate".   I suppose all of our references to Obscure (or Arcane) details is motivated by rememberances of our time as "Initiates", sort of offering a "secret handshake" from an old fraternity or childhood treehouse-club?

Let's see who has an EELM KDF9 in their cupboard or a reference manual to Atlas Autocode in their bookshelf!

- Steve
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Nick Thompson

Re: Arcane Points

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Steve,

I think the Rainbow is still in my attic in Massachusetts!

So, when you are getting together your Museum of Computer Arcania, you can have it.

There’s pretty much a decade of correspondence up there on disks that nobody can read, any more. Good thing none of my students ever became a president … or was seduced by one. I lost another five years when I got mad at Outlook and switched to Earthlink’s Total Abcess. They announced one day that they weren’t supporting it any more and … that was that! Believe it or not, there was no way to bring those files over into another mail program. Even Dot Foil couldn’t do it.

What will be the computer equivalent of the Box of Lincoln’s letters uncovered in an old lady’s attic in Peioria? Will an industry develop some time in the future of recovering old cp/m disks at vast expense? Bill’s love emails to Paula Jones?

Nick

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 9:10 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Arcane Points

How about A.P.’s for a word processor called Samna running on cpm on a computer called a Rainbow? Had some features that Word has yet to introduce.

N

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 1:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Arcane Points

Robert -
Can I get some Arcane Points for writing my first program in ISO coded Atlas Autocode on an EELM KDF9?
Robert C
I'm not sure what is required for granting Arcane Points... certainly, without help from Dr. Internet, I don't have a clue about these referencesI

I suppose there is a "sweet spot" where *at least* one other member of the group recognizes the reference... but obviously not too many. And I suppose that only makes them Obscure, not Arcane.

Merriam Webster seems to distinguish Arcane from Obscure by invoking an element of the Mysterious or the Occult.   I think there is an overtone of being therefore only known to "the Initiate".   I suppose all of our references to Obscure (or Arcane) details is motivated by rememberances of our time as "Initiates", sort of offering a "secret handshake" from an old fraternity or childhood treehouse-club?

Let's see who has an EELM KDF9 in their cupboard or a reference manual to Atlas Autocode in their bookshelf!

- Steve
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Steve Smith

Re: Arcane Points

NIck-

Just to tie two threads together (why not after all?), I'm just now reading Russell's paper as produced for us by Owen, and I'm left with the niggling feeling that they have a strong theoretical connection between your (quoting Doug here) Big, Bold, Naive Question (implied if not stated, "why can't I read my old e-mail?") and Complexity (the nominal topic of this group?).

Your hard drive on your _Rainbow in the Attic_ (there's a title for a book in itself!) contains a bit string (not all that long compared to today's hard drive sizes) that has a certain amount of information. Assuming no physical/magnetic damage to the platter(s) the problem of extracting the information is "context", roughly in the same sense as Russell's (in response to Kolmogorov Complexity measures and the paradox produced by the Invariance Theorem).   Since nominally your mail is in clear ASCII text with (probably) even ASCII text headers/wrappers/indices/etc. then *most* of the context is already known (guessable/verifiable).

Mind you, I'm not offering to go dig out your mail for you, as I would have done the same from one or another of my own _Digital Fossils in the Basement_ (second in the series of books you just inspired).   I'm just introspecting (extrospecting, speculating out loud, expectorating?) about the tie in and the possible reality of your point about "some industry develop sometime of recovering old ..." coming true.

It seems quite possible that the biggest hurdle will the physical/electronic/magnetic extraction, just as OCR problems went from optical and algorithmic limits to "how fast and accurately can you turn a page, load a book, pull a book from a shelf?"   I got to see a prototype of what *had to be* a pneumatic driven, high speed book reader that was built for Google (Books?) by colleagues of mine (who were under non-disclosure) and came to appreciate this particular reality (so many books, so little time).

Maybe there will be an electromagnetic version of the relatively inexpensive laser scanners of today (NextEngine) or DIY Structured Light (ala Ambient Pixel) which can pull bits right off of platters without spinning them up or removing them from their spindles and cases... at which point the problem becomes a bit like OCR and the same kind of "semantic" error correction that is helping Google Voice and I assume Google Books to handle low fidelity data and/or recognize format/indexing information (like chapter and heading titles, page numbers, etc.)

This all ties back to the work I'm (re)discovering by our own Russel Standish (putting another half-hitch in the threads being tangled here) and his use of "Syntactic" and "Semantic" in relationship to *Emergence* .

I understand there are already people who consider themselves "digital archaeologists", so this may not be so far fetched.   As for who would pay for such things, it seems like the "digital paparazzi" are good candidates (as you imply with the Bill/Paula correspondences). In today's technology, I would expect someone to find captured Skype streams of virtual infidelities between people of such high profile!   No end of the fun to be had out there... be careful and keep a low profile!

- Steve

Steve,

I think the Rainbow is still in my attic in Massachusetts!

So, when you are getting together your Museum of Computer Arcania, you can have it.

There’s pretty much a decade of correspondence up there on disks that nobody can read, any more. Good thing none of my students ever became a president … or was seduced by one. I lost another five years when I got mad at Outlook and switched to Earthlink’s Total Abcess. They announced one day that they weren’t supporting it any more and … that was that! Believe it or not, there was no way to bring those files over into another mail program. Even Dot Foil couldn’t do it.

What will be the computer equivalent of the Box of Lincoln’s letters uncovered in an old lady’s attic in Peioria? Will an industry develop some time in the future of recovering old cp/m disks at vast expense? Bill’s love emails to Paula Jones?

Nick

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 9:10 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Arcane Points

Nick -

There have to be *some* APs in there for you... certainly your reference to the old Dec RAINBOW kicked a few neurons loose. Samna rings a bell, didn't they get bought up by Lotus? This kicks loose a cascade of neurons around the whole spreadsheet legacy of visicalc/123/improv!

Thanks, I'll be up all night dreaming pivot tables and projections of OLAP hypercubes!

- Steve
How about A.P.’s for a word processor called Samna running on cpm on a computer called a Rainbow? Had some features that Word has yet to introduce.

N

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 1:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] Arcane Points

Robert -

Can I get some Arcane Points for writing my first program in ISO coded Atlas Autocode on an EELM KDF9?
Robert C

I'm not sure what is required for granting Arcane Points... certainly, without help from Dr. Internet, I don't have a clue about these referencesI

I suppose there is a "sweet spot" where *at least* one other member of the group recognizes the reference... but obviously not too many. And I suppose that only makes them Obscure, not Arcane.

Merriam Webster seems to distinguish Arcane from Obscure by invoking an element of the Mysterious or the Occult.   I think there is an overtone of being therefore only known to "the Initiate".   I suppose all of our references to Obscure (or Arcane) details is motivated by rememberances of our time as "Initiates", sort of offering a "secret handshake" from an old fraternity or childhood treehouse-club?

Let's see who has an EELM KDF9 in their cupboard or a reference manual to Atlas Autocode in their bookshelf!

- Steve
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Russell Standish

Re: Arcane Points

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

It is a terrible pity that so much of our former computing
infrastructure has been dumped in landfill, and still will be. A
recent initiative here in Sydney to set up a computer museum (of
sorts), ran out of money, and many antique computers that had been
stored in a warehouse have been sent to landfill.

As for extracting data, given enough resources, the early stuff (coded
in ASCII) should be possible. Several times I have recovered data from
floppy disks whose filesystems were correupted, by essentially getting
a dump of all sectors, then playing the jigsaw puzzle game to put the
files together. It was even possible in some earlier versions of Word
(losing formatting), though current Word formats are not so possible,
as these use compression algorithms, that are sensitive to frame
reading errors. These days, we could even apply some of the technology used
for assembling gene fragments together to do this in an automated
machine-learned fashion.

It should even be possible to read data off the floppy disks, even if
no floppy disk drive is available (although it will be easier if one
is present). However, my original CP/M machine (a Superbrain), used to
write its bits to disk in the opposite sense to how PCs did it, so one
of the first steps to do upon receiving the bit image onto a PC was to
invert the bits. Unfortunately, this had the downside that certain
sector control signals would be misinterpreted by the PC's floppy disk
controller, which meant that I couldn't read the superbrain disks
unless the disks had been initially formatted on a PC! The Superbrain
is long dead - the hardware lasted approximately 11 years, and it died
in active service. Fortunately I had extracted anything of value from
that media format, prior to its demise, in preparation for moving to
Germany in the early '90s.

Cheers

On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 10:26:54AM -0700, Nicholas Thompson wrote:

> Steve,
>
>
>
> I think the Rainbow is still in my attic in Massachusetts!
>
> So, when you are getting together your Museum of Computer Arcania, you can
> have it.
>
>
>
> There's pretty much a decade of correspondence up there on disks that
> nobody can read, any more. Good thing none of my students ever became a
> president . or was seduced by one. I lost another five years when I got mad
> at Outlook and switched to Earthlink's Total Abcess. They announced one day
> that they weren't supporting it any more and . that was that! Believe it or
> not, there was no way to bring those files over into another mail program.
> Even Dot Foil couldn't do it.
>
>
>
> What will be the computer equivalent of the Box of Lincoln's letters
> uncovered in an old lady's attic in Peioria? Will an industry develop some
> time in the future of recovering old cp/m disks at vast expense? Bill's
> love emails to Paula Jones?
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 9:10 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Arcane Points
>
>
>
> Nick -
>
> There have to be *some* APs in there for you... certainly your reference to
> the old Dec RAINBOW kicked a few neurons loose. Samna rings a bell, didn't
> they get bought up by Lotus? This kicks loose a cascade of neurons around
> the whole spreadsheet legacy of visicalc/123/improv!
>
> Thanks, I'll be up all night dreaming pivot tables and projections of OLAP
> hypercubes!
>
> - Steve
>
> How about A.P.'s for a word processor called Samna running on cpm on a
> computer called a Rainbow? Had some features that Word has yet to
> introduce.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 1:40 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: [FRIAM] Arcane Points
>
>
>
> Robert -
>
> Can I get some Arcane Points for writing my first program in ISO coded Atlas
> Autocode on an EELM KDF9?
> Robert C
>
> I'm not sure what is required for granting Arcane Points... certainly,
> without help from Dr. Internet, I don't have a clue about these referencesI
>
> I suppose there is a "sweet spot" where *at least* one other member of the
> group recognizes the reference... but obviously not too many. And I suppose
> that only makes them Obscure, not Arcane.
>
> Merriam Webster seems to distinguish Arcane from Obscure by invoking an
> element of the Mysterious or the Occult. I think there is an overtone of
> being therefore only known to "the Initiate". I suppose all of our
> references to Obscure (or Arcane) details is motivated by rememberances of
> our time as "Initiates", sort of offering a "secret handshake" from an old
> fraternity or childhood treehouse-club?
>
> Let's see who has an EELM KDF9 in their cupboard or a reference manual to
> Atlas Autocode in their bookshelf!
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>

> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics [hidden email]
University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Arcane Points

On 2/6/13 5:44 PM, Russell Standish wrote:
> It should even be possible to read data off the floppy disks, even if
> no floppy disk drive is available (although it will be easier if one
> is present).
http://www.afmworkshop.com/np-atomic-force-microscope.php

Imagine the trouble one could get into. :-)

Marcus

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Douglas Roberts-2

Re: Arcane Points

I think I want one. With topography vibrating mode, please.

On Feb 6, 2013 8:12 PM, "Marcus G. Daniels" <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2/6/13 5:44 PM, Russell Standish wrote:

It should even be possible to read data off the floppy disks, even if
no floppy disk drive is available (although it will be easier if one
is present).

http://www.afmworkshop.com/np-atomic-force-microscope.php

Imagine the trouble one could get into. :-)

Marcus

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Steve Smith

AFM

Doug -

> I think I want one. With topography vibrating mode, please.

Didn't you ever come check out our NanoEngineering workstation? The Falcon Haptic feedback device hooked up to a GPU-Accellerated molecular dynamics simulation and stereoscopic display(s)? Next time you are in ABQ...

Admittedly it is more cool to actually move the real atoms, not just simulated ones, but it won't be long before it will all be integrated (using the model/simulation to predict the behaviour of the actual AFM tip in it's own milieu). At prices like $45K for a system, I expect it will happen sooner rather than later. There is more interest at Sandia than LANL given that LAMPPS is the heavy lifter in the system.

It's a real hoot to reach down to the (virtual) molecular level, grab a buckyball and try to stuff it in a buckytube with force feedback helping you "feel" your way.

http://www.visdome.com/education/index.php

We shifted focus from Molecular Dynamics last summer to take a run at the realm of VR for cultural heritage (Stereo 360 photography and photogrammetry of places like the Temples of Luxor, Petra and Pella. I was in Milan this summer giving a talk and demo-ing the system to the digital archaeology folks (mostly) from Europe. Molecular Dynamics is more cool, but the Archeo aspect is pretty compelling too!

http://creativec.com/

I've given up (mostly) working with these guys (Creative Consultants) (for business more than technological reasons).

- Steve

On Feb 6, 2013 8:12 PM, "Marcus G. Daniels" <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2/6/13 5:44 PM, Russell Standish wrote:

It should even be possible to read data off the floppy disks, even if
no floppy disk drive is available (although it will be easier if one
is present).

http://www.afmworkshop.com/np-atomic-force-microscope.php

Imagine the trouble one could get into. :-)

Marcus

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Arlo Barnes

Re: Arcane Points

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

The MASTERS Program at the community college has one (a tabletop version). The samples they give you are graphite and a CD, but I will suggest trying floppy discs. We are just now getting the kinks of using it out.

-Arlo James Barnes

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think I want one. With topography vibrating mode, please.
http://www.afmworkshop.com/np-atomic-force-microscope.php

Steve Smith

AFM

Arlo -

What does it take for a civilian to get their hands on this? What is the MASTERS Program? Who manages it?

Is this one of those things where the best way to get access is to sign up for a class? Seems like they might be interested in the "Virtual AFM" NanoEngineering workstation...

- Steve

The MASTERS Program at the community college has one (a tabletop version). The samples they give you are graphite and a CD, but I will suggest trying floppy discs. We are just now getting the kinks of using it out.

-Arlo James Barnes

On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think I want one. With topography vibrating mode, please.

http://www.afmworkshop.com/np-atomic-force-microscope.php
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Arlo Barnes

Re: AFM

The MASTERS Program is a high school I attend that was started a few years ago by John Bishop, the president of nanotech company NorSam. A main focus is taking advantage of dual credit with the college (since we are on the campus) but the secondary focus is STEM education. To that end, we bought a couple of Nanosurf machines (TEM & AFM) and a Hitachi SEM. As to who can use them, I am not sure. So far only high school students and faculty have used them, and then mostly the SEM (easy to set up and use); some college professors have expressed interest in using it with their classes, those arrangements are still being worked out. I believe the school is open to suggestions for what to analyse and not averse to publishing resultant images/data, and perhaps if one is touring the school and requests it the equipment might be demonstrated...but the person to ask about that would be the STEM coordinator, Scott Voorhies. And yes, I do think the haptic interface would be of interest to him/them/us/me. I am currently Googling to read more about it, sounds interesting.
On a related topic, Norsam has donated a picosecond laser + optics table they are no longer using; it needs to be assembled but SFCC does not want to deal with it (having no place to put it and being wary of liability). Is there a place in Santa Fe that would welcome the equipment and has an area able to be blocked off / locked for reasons of eye protection?
-Arlo James Barnes

123