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Justin Lyon

Mac + Intel

I was chatting with Robert Scoble (tech evangelist at Microsoft) and he told me that the MacBook Pro won't use Verizon's EVDO card. Is this correct?

He also told me that he almost bought one! Wow. I think I'm going to buy one - has anyone bought one yet and if so what do you think?
Warmly,
Justin Lyon

http://justinlyonandsimulation.blogspot.com

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Tim Densmore

Mac + Intel

Seeing as they're not shipping yet, and that the one used in the
stevenote was a prototype, I doubt you'll get much in the way of
feedback yet. There is a lot of criticism, even amongst those bathed
in the koolaid though:

http://www.unsanity.org/archives/000445.php

I meant to send this link to the group a while back, but I think my
webmail ate it (which is better than what it did to a company I was
returning a jacket to - it sent them something like 15 replies).

Thank you,
Tim Densmore

--------------------------

"Shared pain is lessened, shared joy is increased; thus do we refute
entropy."
--Spider Robinson
On Jan 24, 2006, at 6:33 AM, Justin Lyon wrote:

> *** FRIAM is meeting at Cloud Cliff this Friday 1/27/2005 ***
>
> I was chatting with Robert Scoble (tech evangelist at Microsoft) and
> he told me that the MacBook Pro won't use Verizon's EVDO card. Is this
> correct?
>
> He also told me that he almost bought one! Wow. I think I'm going to
> buy one - has anyone bought one yet and if so what do you think?
> ?
> Warmly,
> Justin Lyon
>
> http://justinlyonandsimulation.blogspot.com
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Cloud Cliff
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

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Roger Frye-2

Mac + Intel

What is the difference between dual core and dual processor?

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 06:59:49 -0700, Tim Densmore <tim at backspaces.net>
wrote:
> There is a lot of criticism, even amongst those bathed in the koolaid
> though:
> http://www.unsanity.org/archives/000445.php

Martin C. Martin-2

Mac + Intel

Dual core is one process with two copies of the "core" parts of the CPU,
like the ALU and maybe some other things. It's one chip, and the two
cores are very tightly integrated, so multi threaded applications can
communicate very quickly. I assume they share cache and things like
that. Dual core is new.

Dual processor is just having two CPU chips on your motherboard. They
get to share system resources like RAM, but because communicating
between them goes through the motherboard and system RAM, the
communications are much slower.

So, if you're running multi-threaded applications that communicate a
lot, dual core should speed things up. But if you're running two
separate processes that don't interact (much), like running two
instances of your ABM with different random number seeds, dual processor
should be as good as dual core, and probably cheaper for the next few
years. I think. Can anyone confirm/correct?

- Martin

Roger Frye wrote:

> *** FRIAM is meeting at Cloud Cliff this Friday 1/27/2005 ***
>
> What is the difference between dual core and dual processor?
>
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 06:59:49 -0700, Tim Densmore <tim at backspaces.net>
> wrote:
>
>>There is a lot of criticism, even amongst those bathed in the koolaid
>>though:
>>http://www.unsanity.org/archives/000445.php
>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Cloud Cliff
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Russell Standish

Mac + Intel

I would have thought each core would have its own level 1 cache anyway.

The main reason for going dual core is to do something useful with
increasing numbers of transistors on the chip (due to Moore's law). As
such, dual core should deliver a cheaper dual processor system than a
dual single core processor system, or there isn't much point actually.

I'm sceptical of your claim that dual core will speed up
multiprocessing applications. Most dual processors share cache at some
level (level 2 or 3), so speedup will only occur if dual core shares
cache higher up the cache heirarchy than does dual processor. Given
that level 1 and level 2 caches are so measely, it seems unlikely that
cachelines won't be flushed before the second core can act!

Cheers

On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 10:31:43AM -0500, Martin C. Martin wrote:

> *** FRIAM is meeting at Cloud Cliff this Friday 1/27/2005 ***
>
> Dual core is one process with two copies of the "core" parts of the CPU,
> like the ALU and maybe some other things. It's one chip, and the two
> cores are very tightly integrated, so multi threaded applications can
> communicate very quickly. I assume they share cache and things like
> that. Dual core is new.
>
> Dual processor is just having two CPU chips on your motherboard. They
> get to share system resources like RAM, but because communicating
> between them goes through the motherboard and system RAM, the
> communications are much slower.
>
> So, if you're running multi-threaded applications that communicate a
> lot, dual core should speed things up. But if you're running two
> separate processes that don't interact (much), like running two
> instances of your ABM with different random number seeds, dual processor
> should be as good as dual core, and probably cheaper for the next few
> years. I think. Can anyone confirm/correct?
>
> - Martin
>
> Roger Frye wrote:
> > *** FRIAM is meeting at Cloud Cliff this Friday 1/27/2005 ***
> >
> > What is the difference between dual core and dual processor?
> >
> > On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 06:59:49 -0700, Tim Densmore <tim at backspaces.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>There is a lot of criticism, even amongst those bathed in the koolaid
> >>though:
> >>http://www.unsanity.org/archives/000445.php
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Cloud Cliff
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Cloud Cliff
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
*PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
may safely ignore this attachment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
Australia http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robert J. Cordingley

Mac + Intel

In reply to this post by Tim Densmore

PC magazine (1/19/06) seems to look at it more postively, for some ...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1912969,00.asp

Robert Cordingley

Tim Densmore wrote:

>
> Seeing as they're not shipping yet, and that the one used in the
> stevenote was a prototype, I doubt you'll get much in the way of
> feedback yet. There is a lot of criticism, even amongst those bathed
> in the koolaid though:
>
> http://www.unsanity.org/archives/000445.php
>
> I meant to send this link to the group a while back, but I think my
> webmail ate it (which is better than what it did to a company I was
> returning a jacket to - it sent them something like 15 replies).
>
> Thank you,
> Tim Densmore
>
> --------------------------
>
> "Shared pain is lessened, shared joy is increased; thus do we refute
> entropy."
> --Spider Robinson
> On Jan 24, 2006, at 6:33 AM, Justin Lyon wrote:
>
> *** FRIAM is meeting at Cloud Cliff this Friday 1/27/2005 ***
>
> I was chatting with Robert Scoble (tech evangelist at Microsoft)
> and he told me that the MacBook Pro won't use Verizon's EVDO card.
> Is this correct?
>
> He also told me that he almost bought one! Wow. I think I'm going
> to buy one - has anyone bought one yet and if so what do you think?
>
> Warmly,
> Justin Lyon
>
> http://justinlyonandsimulation.blogspot.com
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Cloud Cliff
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>============================================================
>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Cloud Cliff
>lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

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Russell Standish

Mac + Intel

Dual processor versus buying two boxes typically gives about a 25%
cost saving for almost the same amount of CPU power (assuming distributed
memory applications like "throughput" engines)

Dual core will make sense only if it offers a similar saving over dual
processor (and I don't see why it shouldn't). One will then go out
buying dual core, dual processor systems (4 CPUs per box).

Cheers

On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 04:37:06PM -0600, Robert Cordingley wrote:
> *** FRIAM is meeting at Cloud Cliff this Friday 1/27/2005 ***
>

> PC magazine (1/19/06) seems to look at it more postively, for some ...
>
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1912969,00.asp
>
> Robert Cordingley
>
> Tim Densmore wrote:
>
> >
> >Seeing as they're not shipping yet, and that the one used in the
> >stevenote was a prototype, I doubt you'll get much in the way of
> >feedback yet. There is a lot of criticism, even amongst those bathed
> >in the koolaid though:
> >
> >http://www.unsanity.org/archives/000445.php
> >
> >I meant to send this link to the group a while back, but I think my
> >webmail ate it (which is better than what it did to a company I was
> >returning a jacket to - it sent them something like 15 replies).
> >
> >Thank you,
> >Tim Densmore
> >
> >--------------------------
> >
> >"Shared pain is lessened, shared joy is increased; thus do we refute
> >entropy."
> >--Spider Robinson
> >On Jan 24, 2006, at 6:33 AM, Justin Lyon wrote:
> >
> > *** FRIAM is meeting at Cloud Cliff this Friday 1/27/2005 ***
> >
> > I was chatting with Robert Scoble (tech evangelist at Microsoft)
> > and he told me that the MacBook Pro won't use Verizon's EVDO card.
> > Is this correct?
> >
> > He also told me that he almost bought one! Wow. I think I'm going
> > to buy one - has anyone bought one yet and if so what do you think?
> >
> > Warmly,
> > Justin Lyon
> >
> > http://justinlyonandsimulation.blogspot.com
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Cloud Cliff
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >============================================================
> >FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> >Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Cloud Cliff
> >lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >

> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Cloud Cliff
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
*PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
may safely ignore this attachment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
Australia http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Owen Densmore

Mac + Intel

Administrator

In reply to this post by Russell Standish

FWIW: During the design of a Java processor at Sun several years
back, the lead engineer chose a 4-core processor design largely due
to Java's thread architecture .. i.e. they're built into the language
thus the VM thus the processors could presumably be smart about
thread usage.

In my experience, multiple processors (as opposed to multiple cores)
are great for separate applications or for unix shell scripts which
are reasonably careful about unix process usage. They do not,
however, seem to help a lot with threads within a single
application. Indeed, the server based window manager architectures
take advantage of this: one processor for X11, another for your
application. The speedup is quite apparent.

Threads are very useful as the connection between the client and
server, none the less .. threads make server writing trivial.

-- Owen

Owen Densmore
http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org

Russell Standish

Mac + Intel

True, but you wouldn't pay over the odds to speed up your X11
server. If dual core is more expensive than dual processor, you would
just buy dual processor if what you needed to do was accelerate your X server.

My understanding was that multithreaded Java was rather rare (at least
as rare as OpenMP SMP coding is in the compiled world). To be quite
honest, I'm more than happy for this sort of thing to take off, as
this sort of parallel programming is my area of expertise.

Cheers

On Tue, Jan 24, 2006 at 04:01:27PM -0700, Owen Densmore wrote:

> *** FRIAM is meeting at Cloud Cliff this Friday 1/27/2005 ***
>
> FWIW: During the design of a Java processor at Sun several years
> back, the lead engineer chose a 4-core processor design largely due
> to Java's thread architecture .. i.e. they're built into the language
> thus the VM thus the processors could presumably be smart about
> thread usage.
>
> In my experience, multiple processors (as opposed to multiple cores)
> are great for separate applications or for unix shell scripts which
> are reasonably careful about unix process usage. They do not,
> however, seem to help a lot with threads within a single
> application. Indeed, the server based window manager architectures
> take advantage of this: one processor for X11, another for your
> application. The speedup is quite apparent.
>
> Threads are very useful as the connection between the client and
> server, none the less .. threads make server writing trivial.
>
> -- Owen
>
> Owen Densmore
> http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Cloud Cliff
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Charles Gieseler

Mac + Intel

In reply to this post by Tim Densmore

In addition to the stevenote being a prototype, there appears to be
another issue to consider . From slashdot (http://tinyurl.com/e3q8o):

34 Design Flaws in 20 Days of Intel Core Duo
/"Geek.com is reporting that Intel's errata (bug) documentation shows
that the Intel Core Duo chip has 34 known issues
<http://geek.com/news/geeknews/2006Jan/bch20060123034350.htm> found in
the 20 days since the launch of the iMac Core Duo. (you can read the
list
<http://geek.com/images/geeknews/2006Jan/core_duo_errata__2006_01_21__full.gif>)
with only plans to fix one of them. While bugs in hardware is nothing
new (the P4 has 64 known issues, at this time Intel does not plan to fix
a single one) this marks one of the first times that Intel released a
processor with known bugs, and some of the bugs are of higher severity
than in the past. Also alarming is the rate the flaws have been found,
at one and half per day since the launch of the iMac Core Duo."

/Suddenly it's becoming a little easier for me to hold off on buying the
first generation Intel-Macs./
/
-Charlie Gieseler

Tim Densmore wrote:

>*** FRIAM is meeting at Cloud Cliff this Friday 1/27/2005 ***
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Seeing as they're not shipping yet, and that the one used in the
> stevenote was a prototype, I doubt you'll get much in the way of
> feedback yet. There is a lot of criticism, even amongst those bathed
> in the koolaid though:
>
> http://www.unsanity.org/archives/000445.php
>
> I meant to send this link to the group a while back, but I think my
> webmail ate it (which is better than what it did to a company I was
> returning a jacket to - it sent them something like 15 replies).
>
> Thank you,
> Tim Densmore
>
> --------------------------
>
> "Shared pain is lessened, shared joy is increased; thus do we refute
> entropy."
> --Spider Robinson
> On Jan 24, 2006, at 6:33 AM, Justin Lyon wrote:
>
> *** FRIAM is meeting at Cloud Cliff this Friday 1/27/2005 ***
>
> I was chatting with Robert Scoble (tech evangelist at Microsoft)
> and he told me that the MacBook Pro won't use Verizon's EVDO card.
> Is this correct?
>
> He also told me that he almost bought one! Wow. I think I'm going
> to buy one - has anyone bought one yet and if so what do you think?
>
> Warmly,
> Justin Lyon
>
> http://justinlyonandsimulation.blogspot.com
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Cloud Cliff
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>============================================================
>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Cloud Cliff
>lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

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