Lets try this again reaching out for advice and opinions
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Lets try this again reaching out for advice and opinions
 
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I tried asking before. I am going to trust again: Problems: I do not trust Saint Vincents, want several clubs I can at least try, I probably need a job career resume helping types. Problems After Monday simply do not trust Saint Vincents. Owen/Dad has a tendancy to say IT must be their it etc. I got a secritary complaining to me about their staffing issues and omg omg we have no staff. Like I told that rude person. That's on them. Not on someone calling up for what ever reason. I got basically told to shove problem up my.... Saint Vincents has No doctors regularly, no nurse practioners, and from what I can not a damn thing that actually works right. I am now looking for: Job and career types, fun, possibly a new GP, and basically a fresh start: new evaluations, what (if any) meds I may need A good and propper psychiatrists and GP with staff that actually pays attention and doesn't rant about their staffing issues to patients Voke/Joke rehab is a hap hazzard mess and hasn't worked in at least two years so I t will not work at all. I do not fully trust Freed my current psychiatrist because his "perscritions" are a jiberish half hazzard mess from dragon naturally speaking with out any specific spelled out to the letter how if and when to use meds. What stuff to avoid with said meds etc. The secretaries are rude and arguably incompitent And they are just a giant cluster On the postivie sides: Goals I am looking into clubs etc I want to at least try and as dad says the top priority is help affording getting out of this bullshit rut. I want a actuall good and proper psyichatirst with a good and propper office with a fresh start.. Freedmans scripts are to be blunt a mess. They do not spell out exactly how and when to take meds. He has given me a ton with absuletly no spelled out directions wich to to use. I am no longer ok with this. I want someone that can assist me in finding a job to support my zumba habbits. I refuse to believe that dos not exist anywhere in santa fe. If that is not the case: I want opinions, guidance and advice where to move to so as I can get that kind support and guidance. I am more than open to moving ABQ if it comes to it. I am sick and tired of being stuck and must get actual substantive grounded help getting out of a train reck of a life I have at the moment. I must have meetups, fun clubs to be a be in: I've found I love to dance. that's a fine place to start and someone sugested a meetup to try,. I enjoy walks as well, but the all of two groups are how shall I say flakey at best, It must be regular as in weekly I love sampling teas I love tai chi I want to try Kung Fu- I'd love to have a gym partner I am just trying to make concrete strives to getting my ass in geer and my act together in general. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Lets try this again reaching out for advice and opinions
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Having reasonable experience with presby clinic on St Mike's across from St Vinnie. On Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 08:20 Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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For what it's worth, I have nothing to contribute to many of your (Gil) questions. I know I'm a blowhard on almost everything. But I do actually try to stay quiet when I know I've got nothing of use to say. Some people are different (e.g. Renee'). She'd rather someone respond with something/anything just to show she's been heard. So, I've had to work on those little verbal queues like "uh-huh" just to show I'm still in the room.
A story to add weight to the idea: When I was a kid sitting at the dinner table, my sister, from the kitchen, asked if I had something to drink with dinner. I nodded my head not thinking she couldn't see me. My dad FLIPPED HIS LID, grabbed my head and started shaking it yelling: "I don't hear anything! Why can't I hear anything when I shake your head?" He sure knew how to drive a point home. 8^) On 07/11/2018 09:11 AM, Carl Tollander wrote: > Having reasonable experience with presby clinic on St Mike's across from St Vinnie. > > > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 08:20 Gillian Densmore <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > I tried asking before. I am going to trust again: > Problems: I do not trust Saint Vincents, want several clubs I can at least try, I probably need a job career resume helping types. > Problems > After Monday simply do not trust Saint Vincents. Owen/Dad has a tendancy to say IT must be their it etc. I got a secritary complaining to me about their staffing issues and omg omg we have no staff. Like I told that rude person. That's on them. Not on someone calling up for what ever reason. I got basically told to shove problem up my.... > Saint Vincents has No doctors regularly, no nurse practioners, and from what I can not a damn thing that actually works right. > I am now looking for: Job and career types, fun, possibly a new GP, and basically a fresh start: new evaluations, what (if any) meds I may need > A good and propper psychiatrists and GP with staff that actually pays attention and doesn't rant about their staffing issues to patients > Voke/Joke rehab is a hap hazzard mess and hasn't worked in at least two years so I t will not work at all. > I do not fully trust Freed my current psychiatrist because his "perscritions" are a jiberish half hazzard mess from dragon naturally speaking with out any specific spelled out to the letter how if and when to use meds. What stuff to avoid with said meds etc. > The secretaries are rude and arguably incompitent > And they are just a giant cluster > On the postivie sides: > Goals I am looking into clubs etc I want to at least try and as dad says the top priority is help affording getting out of this bullshit rut. > I want a actuall good and proper psyichatirst with a good and propper office with a fresh start.. Freedmans scripts are to be blunt a mess. They do not spell out exactly how and when to take meds. He has given me a ton with absuletly no spelled out directions wich to to use. I am no longer ok with this. > > I want someone that can assist me in finding a job to support my zumba habbits. I refuse to believe that dos not exist anywhere in santa fe. > If that is not the case: > I want opinions, guidance and advice where to move to so as I can get that kind support and guidance. I am more than open to moving ABQ if it comes to it. > I am sick and tired of being stuck and must get actual substantive grounded help getting out of a train reck of a life I have at the moment. > I must have meetups, fun clubs to be a be in: I've found I love to dance. that's a fine place to start and someone sugested a meetup to try,. > I enjoy walks as well, but the all of two groups are how shall I say flakey at best, It must be regular as in weekly > I love sampling teas > I love tai chi > I want to try Kung Fu- > I'd love to have a gym partner > I am just trying to make concrete strives to getting my ass in geer and my act together in general. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Lets try this again reaching out for advice and opinions
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Glen, your anecdote joins nicely with Jaqueline's question "if this list
is dead, where will all the lurkers go?" to create an image of hundreds of heads at hundreds of screens bobbing up and down! This triggers for me, the famous film quote (tagline?) from the Alien 4 part trilogy: "In space, nobody can hear you scream". I'm not a big fan of horror, yet I happen to be (re)reading Stephen King's book on writing aptly titled "On Writing" and of all the horrific movies out there, Alien was the first (and approximately only) one to ever catch my fancy. It also triggers my contemplation/reflection on our collective attraction to Zombie Apocalypse movies... (Night of the Living Dead, Omega Man, et cetera, ad nauseum) and the way this might be a subtly coded set of messages allowing us to engage in the xenophobia we consistently (western society?) seem to return to. On 7/11/18 10:23 AM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote: > For what it's worth, I have nothing to contribute to many of your (Gil) questions. I know I'm a blowhard on almost everything. But I do actually try to stay quiet when I know I've got nothing of use to say. Some people are different (e.g. Renee'). She'd rather someone respond with something/anything just to show she's been heard. So, I've had to work on those little verbal queues like "uh-huh" just to show I'm still in the room. > > A story to add weight to the idea: When I was a kid sitting at the dinner table, my sister, from the kitchen, asked if I had something to drink with dinner. I nodded my head not thinking she couldn't see me. My dad FLIPPED HIS LID, grabbed my head and started shaking it yelling: "I don't hear anything! Why can't I hear anything when I shake your head?" He sure knew how to drive a point home. 8^) > > On 07/11/2018 09:11 AM, Carl Tollander wrote: >> Having reasonable experience with presby clinic on St Mike's across from St Vinnie. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018, 08:20 Gillian Densmore <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> >> I tried asking before. I am going to trust again: >> Problems: I do not trust Saint Vincents, want several clubs I can at least try, I probably need a job career resume helping types. >> Problems >> After Monday simply do not trust Saint Vincents. Owen/Dad has a tendancy to say IT must be their it etc. I got a secritary complaining to me about their staffing issues and omg omg we have no staff. Like I told that rude person. That's on them. Not on someone calling up for what ever reason. I got basically told to shove problem up my.... >> Saint Vincents has No doctors regularly, no nurse practioners, and from what I can not a damn thing that actually works right. >> I am now looking for: Job and career types, fun, possibly a new GP, and basically a fresh start: new evaluations, what (if any) meds I may need >> A good and propper psychiatrists and GP with staff that actually pays attention and doesn't rant about their staffing issues to patients >> Voke/Joke rehab is a hap hazzard mess and hasn't worked in at least two years so I t will not work at all. >> I do not fully trust Freed my current psychiatrist because his "perscritions" are a jiberish half hazzard mess from dragon naturally speaking with out any specific spelled out to the letter how if and when to use meds. What stuff to avoid with said meds etc. >> The secretaries are rude and arguably incompitent >> And they are just a giant cluster >> On the postivie sides: >> Goals I am looking into clubs etc I want to at least try and as dad says the top priority is help affording getting out of this bullshit rut. >> I want a actuall good and proper psyichatirst with a good and propper office with a fresh start.. Freedmans scripts are to be blunt a mess. They do not spell out exactly how and when to take meds. He has given me a ton with absuletly no spelled out directions wich to to use. I am no longer ok with this. >> >> I want someone that can assist me in finding a job to support my zumba habbits. I refuse to believe that dos not exist anywhere in santa fe. >> If that is not the case: >> I want opinions, guidance and advice where to move to so as I can get that kind support and guidance. I am more than open to moving ABQ if it comes to it. >> I am sick and tired of being stuck and must get actual substantive grounded help getting out of a train reck of a life I have at the moment. >> I must have meetups, fun clubs to be a be in: I've found I love to dance. that's a fine place to start and someone sugested a meetup to try,. >> I enjoy walks as well, but the all of two groups are how shall I say flakey at best, It must be regular as in weekly >> I love sampling teas >> I love tai chi >> I want to try Kung Fu- >> I'd love to have a gym partner >> I am just trying to make concrete strives to getting my ass in geer and my act together in general. > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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Ha! That's a pretty funny image. The idea that there's a bunch of lurkers bobbing their heads at what someone says seems like something Trump might think. It would be an interesting experiment. When/if you post some blurb to your favorite medium, be it cocktail party, Twitter, or some mailing list, if nobody responds, do you think: a) everyone must agree with you? b) people see it but don't care? c) people must disagree with you because otherwise they'd argue?, or d) nobody's there?
I've known quite a few musicians who, even while on stage, seem to crave the audience's attention or participation. They seem to feel that if nobody's dancing (or banging, or moshing, or whatever's appropriate), then their gig is somehow failing. Being a bit of a shoegazer, myself, it's bizarre to think that the people producing such beautiful audioscapes would ever need, much less want, my feedback. But they do. On 07/11/2018 11:50 AM, Steven A Smith wrote: > Glen, your anecdote joins nicely with Jaqueline's question "if this list > is dead, where will all the lurkers go?" to create an image of hundreds > of heads at hundreds of screens bobbing up and down! > > This triggers for me, the famous film quote (tagline?) from the Alien 4 > part trilogy: "In space, nobody can hear you scream". I'm not a big > fan of horror, yet I happen to be (re)reading Stephen King's book on > writing aptly titled "On Writing" and of all the horrific movies out > there, Alien was the first (and approximately only) one to ever catch my > fancy. > > It also triggers my contemplation/reflection on our collective > attraction to Zombie Apocalypse movies... (Night of the Living Dead, > Omega Man, et cetera, ad nauseum) and the way this might be a subtly > coded set of messages allowing us to engage in the xenophobia we > consistently (western society?) seem to return to. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Lets try this again reaching out for advice and opinions
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I am coming to appreciate more what artists (including poets and
musicians) mean when they talk about their work being collaborative with their audience (fans, readers, etc.) I share your (Glen) sentiment (as something of a shoe-gazer myself) that I am not in any (specific) way obligated to respond to their work, yet I do believe that my response (even if it is roughly *intense shoe gazing*) is an important part of what they are doing. I remember listening to an NPR story (This American Life?) years ago on roughly the anniversary of the first public/commercial audio recording of a musical performance and the reception such a thing had at that time. Musicians were supposedly entirely non-plussed by this development... the anecdotal explanation being that they simply didn't recognize the *sound* being emitted as being representative of the art/performance... it obviously had a central role in some sense, but by the time *we* came of age (depending on who "we" is here, anywhere from the early 50s to the 2000s (I know only of one specific member of this list under 30?) commercial LP and audio tape (reel to reel, 8 track, cassette, ???) recordings were a strong standard in the way we experienced music. As a DJ in the early 70s, I was aware that for any given popular song, there may be several or *many* recorded versions (usually from different live concerts) with subtle variations and that *I*, with my "curatorial" role with music felt it very important to know that *somebody was listening*. When I allowed requests and dedications, it was invariably maddening that the callins were almost exclusively "teeny boppers" asking for the most ridiculously saccharine music over and over (during Michael Jackson's "Ben" fame, they would call *while* it was playing to ask me to play it... I set a hard and fast rule that no song, no matter how popular would ever get played more than once during my 3-4 hour show. Of course, Gil's questions/requests here were not intended as (performance?) art, so this doesn't apply directly. I know that when *I* as a question into the air and get absolutely NO response, it is easy to take the deafening silence personally. Sorry Gil... I'm glad you kept asking, even if our advice/answers are somewhat lame! - Stve - Steve On 7/11/18 5:18 PM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote: > Ha! That's a pretty funny image. The idea that there's a bunch of lurkers bobbing their heads at what someone says seems like something Trump might think. It would be an interesting experiment. When/if you post some blurb to your favorite medium, be it cocktail party, Twitter, or some mailing list, if nobody responds, do you think: a) everyone must agree with you? b) people see it but don't care? c) people must disagree with you because otherwise they'd argue?, or d) nobody's there? > > I've known quite a few musicians who, even while on stage, seem to crave the audience's attention or participation. They seem to feel that if nobody's dancing (or banging, or moshing, or whatever's appropriate), then their gig is somehow failing. Being a bit of a shoegazer, myself, it's bizarre to think that the people producing such beautiful audioscapes would ever need, much less want, my feedback. But they do. > > > On 07/11/2018 11:50 AM, Steven A Smith wrote: >> Glen, your anecdote joins nicely with Jaqueline's question "if this list >> is dead, where will all the lurkers go?" to create an image of hundreds >> of heads at hundreds of screens bobbing up and down! >> >> This triggers for me, the famous film quote (tagline?) from the Alien 4 >> part trilogy: "In space, nobody can hear you scream". I'm not a big >> fan of horror, yet I happen to be (re)reading Stephen King's book on >> writing aptly titled "On Writing" and of all the horrific movies out >> there, Alien was the first (and approximately only) one to ever catch my >> fancy. >> >> It also triggers my contemplation/reflection on our collective >> attraction to Zombie Apocalypse movies... (Night of the Living Dead, >> Omega Man, et cetera, ad nauseum) and the way this might be a subtly >> coded set of messages allowing us to engage in the xenophobia we >> consistently (western society?) seem to return to. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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Well, as usual, we have to avoid any artificial discretization. Collaboration comes in a spectrum of types just like everything else. The lag time for feedback from one's recorded music (or video, books, etc.) is much longer than that of a "live" show. But that doesn't mean there is no feedback to the artist or publisher. And, as you point out, the system might be a 3 compartment system (artist, DJ, listener), which not only affects the lag time, but also the quality and type of signal (including more types: artist-listener, artist-DJ, DJ-listener, artist-listener-DJ, artist-DJ-listener, etc.).
I don't construct hardly any music, even though I trained a bit on piano and trumpet. But I have participated in a few jam sessions (using a drum forcibly shoved at me). Low latency collaboration between musicians is obviously required. And I can even see the need for such tight couplings between, say, conductor and orchestra, or musician and performing dancers or whatnot. But I still don't really understand the apparent *need* of stage bands to see their audience *react* in immediate, active, and obvious ways right then and there. There is a clear bifurcation of stage bands, though. The math rock bands, being largely engrossed in their production, don't seem to care that much about getting/seeing reactions during their performance. The same seems true of most stoner, psy, and noise acts. So, I have to infer a strong correlation between the musicians' internal physiology and their product type. Different types of intentional evocation require/dictate different types of interaction. And to be clear, it's not that I do or don't feel obligated to react visibly. It's that I don't parse music by moving my body. In fact, physical movement interferes with my ability to listen carefully. So, yeah, if you want me to move, play rote ostinatos that I've heard over and over again in one form or the other. But if you want me to *hear*, then play something interesting and don't demand any movement from me. 8^) On 07/11/2018 07:47 PM, Steven A Smith wrote: > I am coming to appreciate more what artists (including poets and > musicians) mean when they talk about their work being collaborative with > their audience (fans, readers, etc.) > > I share your (Glen) sentiment (as something of a shoe-gazer myself) that > I am not in any (specific) way obligated to respond to their work, yet I > do believe that my response (even if it is roughly *intense shoe > gazing*) is an important part of what they are doing. > > I remember listening to an NPR story (This American Life?) years ago on > roughly the anniversary of the first public/commercial audio recording > of a musical performance and the reception such a thing had at that > time. Musicians were supposedly entirely non-plussed by this > development... the anecdotal explanation being that they simply didn't > recognize the *sound* being emitted as being representative of the > art/performance... it obviously had a central role in some sense, but > by the time *we* came of age (depending on who "we" is here, anywhere > from the early 50s to the 2000s (I know only of one specific member of > this list under 30?) commercial LP and audio tape (reel to reel, 8 > track, cassette, ???) recordings were a strong standard in the way we > experienced music. As a DJ in the early 70s, I was aware that for any > given popular song, there may be several or *many* recorded versions > (usually from different live concerts) with subtle variations and that > *I*, with my "curatorial" role with music felt it very important to know > that *somebody was listening*. When I allowed requests and > dedications, it was invariably maddening that the callins were almost > exclusively "teeny boppers" asking for the most ridiculously saccharine > music over and over (during Michael Jackson's "Ben" fame, they would > call *while* it was playing to ask me to play it... I set a hard and > fast rule that no song, no matter how popular would ever get played more > than once during my 3-4 hour show. > > Of course, Gil's questions/requests here were not intended as > (performance?) art, so this doesn't apply directly. I know that when > *I* as a question into the air and get absolutely NO response, it is > easy to take the deafening silence personally. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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The Spectra and Dimensionality of Collaboration
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Glen
> Well, as usual, we have to avoid any artificial discretization. Collaboration comes in a spectrum of types just like everything else. The lag time for feedback from one's recorded music (or video, books, etc.) is much longer than that of a "live" show. But that doesn't mean there is no feedback to the artist or publisher. And, as you point out, the system might be a 3 compartment system (artist, DJ, listener), which not only affects the lag time, but also the quality and type of signal (including more types: artist-listener, artist-DJ, DJ-listener, artist-listener-DJ, artist-DJ-listener, etc.). I naturally accept your (nominally) continuous spectrum as well as the extra-degrees of freedom to which you can probably add composer, lyricist, producer, and an arbitrary other number of players. > I don't construct hardly any music, even though I trained a bit on piano and trumpet. But I have participated in a few jam sessions (using a drum forcibly shoved at me). Low latency collaboration between musicians is obviously required. And I can even see the need for such tight couplings between, say, conductor and orchestra, or musician and performing dancers or whatnot. But I still don't really understand the apparent *need* of stage bands to see their audience *react* in immediate, active, and obvious ways right then and there. I think *my* anecdotal point was that *I* didn't used to understand the degree to which some artists feel like their work is collaborative... we can characterize it as "feedback from the audience" and posit all kinds of coupling coefficients across space and time, but to them it appears to be *collaborative* more than "needing a responsive audience". On one end, an ad-hoc washboard, spoon, and jug band would appear to be the MOST collaborative... with the members of the audience (maybe nobody is an audience if everyone in the kitchen or on the porch is tapping their foot, entrained to the tempo the more obvious members of the group are trying to find/establish/maintain) participating and even rotating through various instruments and/or all vocalizing/clapping/stomping along. Yee Haw! I can't say for you (Glen, or anyone else reading this) but I find my own physical response to music to be across a wide range from shoe-gazing (as you put it) to a fairly strong physical response. It sounds like maybe Gil is just finding/hitting his stride with physical/emotional entrainment to music and maybe more importantly others dancing to the same rhythms in a group? I've had my moments (mostly in my relative youth) when I did "get down and boogie" a little and even now find myself able to *sway* to some music, but I *also* understand just meditating to the music... listening intently without any obvious physical response. I think I hear the key to your reflection here being the *expectation* of the band (or it's members) on you (the audience) or maybe more strongly but tangentially, the *need* for it. Both of my daughters hooked up in their early adult years with musicians who performed in public (not quite pro, but not entirely amateur)... they were both *very* introverted (one exclusively was a drummer, the other multi-talented but spent most of his time on stage with a keyboard) and neither would have openly admitted the need for a live audience for feedback, yet both seemed to feel that they (usually) played better to an audience. Some of that might be attributed to the rest of the band *needing* (wanting/appreciating?) the feedback of a moshing/banging/stomping/clapping/dancing/swaying/singalonging audience and being jazzed themselves, helping these two young men have a better experience *with* the band. Or maybe they *did* need/want that kind of coupling, it just didn't fit their self-image to admit they wanted/needed it? Neither performs in public (much if at all) anymore but one is a semi-pro producer (meaning he has set up an elaborate ad-hoc recording studio and helps others produce music). He has a full mixing setup in the basement along with amps and speakers and soundproofing and a number of his own instruments across a spectrum and room for small groups to jam... but when they *record*, he has mic and headphone cords running to every room in the house upstairs, and he sets each band-member up in *relative* isolation so that they only hear one another through their headphones as they lay down tracks. Yes, the *do* remix tracks played out of time, etc. also but from what he tells me, the best work is done playing in real-time but only over the wire... nobody hearing anyone else sound waves, just the actual recording as it is layed down/mixed a fraction of a millisecond behind I suppose... they don't look across the room at one another for meaningful glances, or watch the other "grooving" on his/her own instrument. If we had video of them in their rooms, I suspect they are *all* grooving they whole time, just as if they were in front of an audience... the full-body kinesology is likely a key part of the music-making even IF it looks (to me) like at least part affectation. He says he misses playing live gigs but doesn't miss the drama of being in bands which plays live gigs. I'll have to ask him if he misses the live audience or just the effect of the live audience on his bandmates. - Steve > > There is a clear bifurcation of stage bands, though. The math rock bands, being largely engrossed in their production, don't seem to care that much about getting/seeing reactions during their performance. The same seems true of most stoner, psy, and noise acts. So, I have to infer a strong correlation between the musicians' internal physiology and their product type. Different types of intentional evocation require/dictate different types of interaction. > > And to be clear, it's not that I do or don't feel obligated to react visibly. It's that I don't parse music by moving my body. In fact, physical movement interferes with my ability to listen carefully. So, yeah, if you want me to move, play rote ostinatos that I've heard over and over again in one form or the other. But if you want me to *hear*, then play something interesting and don't demand any movement from me. 8^) > > > On 07/11/2018 07:47 PM, Steven A Smith wrote: >> I am coming to appreciate more what artists (including poets and >> musicians) mean when they talk about their work being collaborative with >> their audience (fans, readers, etc.) >> >> I share your (Glen) sentiment (as something of a shoe-gazer myself) that >> I am not in any (specific) way obligated to respond to their work, yet I >> do believe that my response (even if it is roughly *intense shoe >> gazing*) is an important part of what they are doing. >> >> I remember listening to an NPR story (This American Life?) years ago on >> roughly the anniversary of the first public/commercial audio recording >> of a musical performance and the reception such a thing had at that >> time. Musicians were supposedly entirely non-plussed by this >> development... the anecdotal explanation being that they simply didn't >> recognize the *sound* being emitted as being representative of the >> art/performance... it obviously had a central role in some sense, but >> by the time *we* came of age (depending on who "we" is here, anywhere >> from the early 50s to the 2000s (I know only of one specific member of >> this list under 30?) commercial LP and audio tape (reel to reel, 8 >> track, cassette, ???) recordings were a strong standard in the way we >> experienced music. As a DJ in the early 70s, I was aware that for any >> given popular song, there may be several or *many* recorded versions >> (usually from different live concerts) with subtle variations and that >> *I*, with my "curatorial" role with music felt it very important to know >> that *somebody was listening*. When I allowed requests and >> dedications, it was invariably maddening that the callins were almost >> exclusively "teeny boppers" asking for the most ridiculously saccharine >> music over and over (during Michael Jackson's "Ben" fame, they would >> call *while* it was playing to ask me to play it... I set a hard and >> fast rule that no song, no matter how popular would ever get played more >> than once during my 3-4 hour show. >> >> Of course, Gil's questions/requests here were not intended as >> (performance?) art, so this doesn't apply directly. I know that when >> *I* as a question into the air and get absolutely NO response, it is >> easy to take the deafening silence personally. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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I like (kinda agree with) everything you say in that last post, except the following: On 07/12/2018 09:50 AM, Steven A Smith wrote: > I think I hear the key to your reflection here being the *expectation* > of the band (or it's members) on you (the audience) or maybe more > strongly but tangentially, the *need* for it. I definitely care less about any expectation they place/have *on* me. I care more about what that feedback *does* for them or to them. Does it help produce the music? Does it color/bias the music? Does it simply energize them so that they can generate the music for a longer time? Do they customize the music (consciously or not) based on that feedback? Etc. This is what I don't understand. My attempt to parse stage bands into those that seem to feed off the audience vs. those that don't is an attempt to gain some understanding into what the feedback achieves for the musicians. And your discussion of nearly synchronized production over the wire contributes to that understanding. Thanks. It reminds me of so many guitarists who seem to move their mouth/jaw/lips as they play, seemingly in ways correlated with what they're playing. It's as if the coupling between their body and their music is either much much tighter than (or independent from) the coupling between their body and the other musicians' bodies. But, again, I can imagine the "affectation" you refer to is a spectrum, as well. I'm a big fan of some bands that put on a real *show* where the show is meaningfully tied to the music. E.g. Wardruna (http://www.wardruna.com/), which uses "historical instruments" and dresses the part. Their performances approach a play, with strong visuals coupled with the music. So, the question becomes one of how audience feedback affects something like a "troupe of minstrels", including acrobatics and such, versus something like chamber music. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: The Spectra and Dimensionality of Collaboration
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Glen -
> I like (kinda agree with) everything you say in that last post, except the following: > > On 07/12/2018 09:50 AM, Steven A Smith wrote: >> I think I hear the key to your reflection here being the *expectation* >> of the band (or it's members) on you (the audience) or maybe more >> strongly but tangentially, the *need* for it. > I definitely care less about any expectation they place/have *on* me. I care more about what that feedback *does* for them or to them. The former is probably significantly my projection, as I always find it awkward to respond to specific expectations, real or imagined. Whether it is the (real or imagined) expectations of the band, or the "rest of the audience", I can find it inhibitory. While I enjoy attending art-openings for the energy of the rest of the crowd there observing a piece or collection for the first time, I absolutely *loathe* being asked "what do you think?" (or equivalent) by anyone who is not an intimate. Especially the artist themselves! The latter is what I think we are contemplating collaboratively here as you elaborate: > Does it help produce the music? Does it color/bias the music? Does it simply energize them so that they can generate the music for a longer time? Do they customize the music (consciously or not) based on that feedback? Etc. This is what I don't understand. My attempt to parse stage bands into those that seem to feed off the audience vs. those that don't is an attempt to gain some understanding into what the feedback achieves for the musicians. I think your original statement was "I don't understand" which I always get trapped into thinking is code for "I don't approve", which by now I should know better with you. > But, again, I can imagine the "affectation" you refer to is a spectrum, as well. I'm a big fan of some bands that put on a real *show* where the show is meaningfully tied to the music. E.g. Wardruna (http://www.wardruna.com/), which uses "historical instruments" and dresses the part. Their performances approach a play, with strong visuals coupled with the music. So, the question becomes one of how audience feedback affects something like a "troupe of minstrels", including acrobatics and such, versus something like chamber music. In my first (knee jerk?) response to this, I wanted to make some claims about Rock-Opera only to find (reading Wikipedia whose reliability is variable) that Rock Operas are not (normally?) conceived as a stage performance, but rather a themed "concept album", which is then generally rendered *as* a "rock musical" stage performance and then (yet) later perhaps as a cinematic performance. The most seminal (and sometimes considered to be the first), _Tommy_ by The Who being an obvious example. _Jesus Christ Superstar_ is another, though it appears that _Hair_ (which I always assumed followed the same arc) sprung to life directly as a stage production. While the music video/short-clip as a form predated MTV, it seems like the creation of MTV provided a consistent venue and appetite for canned visual performances to go along with canned audio. This of course, is somewhat oblique to your contemplation of *stage* performers which I take you to mean run of the mill musicians whose primary outlet for musical creation is *playing on stage*... local and regional bands or individuals who play live venues more than they sell recordings (though they may record and sell also). Naturally people who choose this venue/outlet would seem to do it because it helps them do what they do. Or perhaps they really know nothing else... they "grew up in it" and that is *how* they practice their music, whether it is obvious what aspects of the live performance is necessary to them. A complementary question to contemplate (perhaps) is not whether they *need* the interaction or if they simply are put off/lost when it is not there... it may not be that they overtly feed off of the energy or the feedback as much as they simply depend on it as a "reflection" of their energetic output? This diminishes my idea that it is collaborative... the audience becomes somewhat of a passive reflector, closer to the geometry/acoustics of an amphitheater than of electronic amplifier/speaker kitting. I'm sure we have at least a few people on the list with more live performance experience than either of us who might have their own personal insights. Other performance types to consider might include dance, magic (illusion), or acrobatics. It is my belief that while all three are very kinesthetic, that only the illusionist absolute requires an audience for full meaning to emerge. I don't mean to say that an illusionist cannot practice her craft alone, without an audience, but to some extent, wouldn't that be a lot like the proverbial "one hand clapping" more than "a tree falling in the forest, with no one to hear it"? - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Lets try this again reaching out for advice and opinions
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In reply to this post by gepr
Thank you guys again! The guidance is very much apreciated--thank you On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:09 AM, uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote: Well, as usual, we have to avoid any artificial discretization. Collaboration comes in a spectrum of types just like everything else. The lag time for feedback from one's recorded music (or video, books, etc.) is much longer than that of a "live" show. But that doesn't mean there is no feedback to the artist or publisher. And, as you point out, the system might be a 3 compartment system (artist, DJ, listener), which not only affects the lag time, but also the quality and type of signal (including more types: artist-listener, artist-DJ, DJ-listener, artist-listener-DJ, artist-DJ-listener, etc.). ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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