Just as a bye-the-way
Locked
 
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Don't want my FRIAM friends and acquaintances to be the last to know:
If you feel like getting married, I can now conduct the ceremony. "With this rigatoni, I thee wed, etc."
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Doug, I don't want to pick on you, but your certificate strikes me as indirect bullying.
I'm as atheistic as they come, but I know a number of people who (for reasons that I don't understand) take religion quite seriously. They are intelligent, pleasant people, not the sort to rub their beliefs in anyone's face. Most are politically left of center. One has a bumper sticker that reads "A proud member of the religious left".
Why pick on them? I'm sure you don't intend to. I'm sure you are making fun of the Rick Santorums of the world. It's just that by casting as wide a net as the Flying Spaghetti Monster does, it also makes fun of everyone with religious feelings.
The answer someone like Sam Harris would give is that what they say is either false or without any shred of objective support. But the people I'm thinking of don't go around proclaiming their beliefs as The Truth. They go about their business simply wanting to experience the world through a different lens. The fact that I don't understand it -- and I don't; I'm completely mystified by their way of thinking about certain things -- doesn't give me the right to ridicule it.
Sorry for the rant. -- Russ
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote: Don't want my FRIAM friends and acquaintances to be the last to know: ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Russ, your rant was conducted in the pure spirit of FRIAM; I would have been disappointed had I not received at least one.
And I enjoyed it, thanks! --Doug
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 11:31 PM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Russ Abbott
Ramen.
**************************** Greg Sonnenfeld “The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.” On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 11:31 PM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote: > Doug, I don't want to pick on you, but your certificate strikes me as > indirect bullying. > > I'm as atheistic as they come, but I know a number of people who (for > reasons that I don't understand) take religion quite seriously. They are > intelligent, pleasant people, not the sort to rub their beliefs in anyone's > face. Most are politically left of center. One has a bumper sticker that > reads "A proud member of the religious left". > > Why pick on them? I'm sure you don't intend to. I'm sure you are making fun > of the Rick Santorums of the world. It's just that by casting as wide a net > as the Flying Spaghetti Monster does, it also makes fun of everyone with > religious feelings. > > The answer someone like Sam Harris would give is that what they say is > either false or without any shred of objective support. But the people I'm > thinking of don't go around proclaiming their beliefs as The Truth. They go > about their business simply wanting to experience the world through a > different lens. The fact that I don't understand it -- and I don't; I'm > completely mystified by their way of thinking about certain things -- > doesn't give me the right to ridicule it. > > Sorry for the rant. > > -- Russ > > > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> > wrote: >> >> Don't want my FRIAM friends and acquaintances to be the last to know: >> >> If you feel like getting married, I can now conduct the ceremony. >> >> "With this rigatoni, I thee wed, etc." >> >> -Father Doug >> >> -- >> Doug Roberts >> [hidden email] >> [hidden email] >> http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins >> >> 505-455-7333 - Office >> 505-670-8195 - Cell >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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The Vicar of Vermicelli approves. Sent from Android. On Mar 23, 2012 9:34 AM, "Greg Sonnenfeld" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ramen. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Just as a bye-the-way
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In reply to this post by Russ Abbott
I'm told many find comfort in the teachings of <insert your
spiritual leader here>. I thought it odd/insightful that Joseph
Cambell found the same core message in the world's major
religious teachings. I can believe moral atheists share the same
core teachings. Then there are those from all persuasions that
hijack a religion for their own purposes: political or financial
power - they can all burn in hell! :) But hey if it works even as a
social phenomenon, i.e. allows one to enjoy life and live longer and
die in peace, can we knock it?
Otherwise I must congratulate Father Doug in becoming a man of the cloth at the CotFSM and following in a long line of inspired spiritual teachers. I liked the bit about ' we are anti-crazy nonsense done in the name of religion.' (see the About page). Noodle on. Thanks, Robert C PS What would you believe if you had infinite intelligence? R On 3/22/12 11:31 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
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Good question about infinite intelligence. Try to even frame a reference for answering that one. Sent from Android. On Mar 23, 2012 12:14 PM, "Robert J. Cordingley" <[hidden email]> wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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So, for reference: a 2X intelligence delta that we have all probably experienced, perhaps without knowing it, would be from talking with a person who had an IQ of 70, followed by engaging with a person having a140 IQ. I will ignore quibbles about the accuracy of IQ as an intelligence measure for the purpose of this discussion. I suspect the less intelligent person truely believes the religious dogma he's been taught. No ambiguity: true belief. I've observed that the more intelligent people put part of their intellect to sleep when it comes to religion. They call this process "taking it as an article of faith" when one of the irrational elements of their religion is brought into the spotlight. So the question that I would have, were we all to suddenly evolve 2X intelligence is: to what extent would we collectively be willing to suspend our intelligent thought processes in order to continue to believe religious bullshit? Working from my phone today... -Doug Sent from Android. On Mar 23, 2012 1:58 PM, "Robert J. Cordingley" <[hidden email]> wrote:
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I come at the whole "I'm ordained so now I can marry folk" thing from a different direction: in many states, *anyone* can be an officient at a wedding. No special documentation is required. In those places, any accrediting document for that purpose is a joke document. ~~The Reverend James Steiner, ULC, FSM, CotSG ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Indeed, and New Mexico is one of those states. Regardless, I am inordinately proud of my new ordination. :) -Doug Sent from Android. On Mar 23, 2012 3:15 PM, "James Steiner" <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Just as a bye-the-way
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In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2
It's possible that...
- there may be a direct correlation between less intelligence and belief in what others will tell them (e.g. dogma and religious BS) - because neither knows any better. - and that may have nothing to do with whether a belief in the Divine is correlated with intelligence. - there may be a direct correlation between intelligence and the model of the Divine held by the believer. Those with little or no imagination may prefer the fatherly bearded figure on a throne or no-one/thing at all. - the more introspective may develop a model more subtle: e.g. 'existing' between the branes of the universes yet present 'everywhere' in one of 11 higher dimensions, fielding energies unforeseen that impact on the spiritually aware entities in the different universes under Its influence... or something completely different... perhaps it's metaphorically turtles all the way down (branes within branes within...) held together by... No evidence of existence is not proof of non-existence - even if our limited anthropocentric concept of existence applies here. We may be thinking about It all wrong. I've observed that the extent to which people "take it as an article of faith" depends on the school of teachings. Doubt - an antidote to fanaticism - healthily shows itself often, contrary to 'taking the article'. And as for the final interesting but loaded question... at least I'd like to think the BS quotient should fall. There's a discussion of the religiosity and intelligence studies in Wikipedia. Then there's the story of the Scottish atheist fishing in Lock Ness when suddenly his boat was tossed in the air. The fisherman gazed in fright at the Loch Ness Monster opening it's terrible jaws about to devour fisherman, boat and all. The fisherman cried out "God help me!". God replied " Why should I - you don't believe in me!" "Give me a break, I didn't believe in the Loch Ness monster a moment ago either!" Timing may be everything. Thanks Robert C On 3/23/12 2:42 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
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In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2
So, Doug, explain to me how you come to believe in the validity of induction? From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts So, for reference: a 2X intelligence delta that we have all probably experienced, perhaps without knowing it, would be from talking with a person who had an IQ of 70, followed by engaging with a person having a140 IQ. I will ignore quibbles about the accuracy of IQ as an intelligence measure for the purpose of this discussion. I suspect the less intelligent person truely believes the religious dogma he's been taught. No ambiguity: true belief. I've observed that the more intelligent people put part of their intellect to sleep when it comes to religion. They call this process "taking it as an article of faith" when one of the irrational elements of their religion is brought into the spotlight. So the question that I would have, were we all to suddenly evolve 2X intelligence is: to what extent would we collectively be willing to suspend our intelligent thought processes in order to continue to believe religious bullshit? Working from my phone today... -Doug Sent from Android. On Mar 23, 2012 1:58 PM, "Robert J. Cordingley" <[hidden email]> wrote: For starters what would you consider to be good and bad - assuming you are still a human being, with human interests at least? It's a problem because I haven't premised whether you have infinite knowledge to go with the infinite intelligence 'cos the two together is/are looking like an omni-something being etc. Good question about infinite intelligence. Try to even frame a reference for answering that one. Sent from Android. On Mar 23, 2012 12:14 PM, "Robert J. Cordingley" <[hidden email]> wrote: I'm told many find comfort in the teachings of <insert your spiritual leader here>. I thought it odd/insightful that Joseph Cambell found the same core message in the world's major religious teachings. I can believe moral atheists share the same core teachings. Then there are those from all persuasions that hijack a religion for their own purposes: political or financial power - they can all burn in hell! :) But hey if it works even as a social phenomenon, i.e. allows one to enjoy life and live longer and die in peace, can we knock it? Doug, I don't want to pick on you, but your certificate strikes me as indirect bullying. I'm as atheistic as they come, but I know a number of people who (for reasons that I don't understand) take religion quite seriously. They are intelligent, pleasant people, not the sort to rub their beliefs in anyone's face. Most are politically left of center. One has a bumper sticker that reads "A proud member of the religious left". Why pick on them? I'm sure you don't intend to. I'm sure you are making fun of the Rick Santorums of the world. It's just that by casting as wide a net as the Flying Spaghetti Monster does, it also makes fun of everyone with religious feelings. The answer someone like Sam Harris would give is that what they say is either false or without any shred of objective support. But the people I'm thinking of don't go around proclaiming their beliefs as The Truth. They go about their business simply wanting to experience the world through a different lens. The fact that I don't understand it -- and I don't; I'm completely mystified by their way of thinking about certain things -- doesn't give me the right to ridicule it. Sorry for the rant. -- Russ On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote: Don't want my FRIAM friends and acquaintances to be the last to know: If you feel like getting married, I can now conduct the ceremony. "With this rigatoni, I thee wed, etc." -Father Doug --
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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When we put it in a computer, it works. My email spam filter
(spamassassin) uses a machine induction technique called Bayesian networks. It is remarkably effective at keeping spam out, and learning, in the process, what I consider to be spam. In order to persuade me that induction is invalid, you would need to explain why the above is not an example of induction. I have read David Deutsch's books where takes a swinging hammer to induction. I found these to be less than convincing. Moreover, the examples he gives of induction (and of induction failing) seem very similar to the spamassasin example above (which also fails, from time-to-time, as the occasional spam gets through). I have been on the lists Fabric of Reality and Beginning of Infinity, until I got kicked off for the suspected crime of being a Bayesian epistemologist, where such discussions have taken place, with the anti-induction crowd providing little substance other than to suggest read tomes and tomes of Popper, which I'm unlikely to do without a compelling reason. Surely, if induction is so incoherent, it can be demolished effectively in 100 words or less. BTW - I do agree with Deutsch that conjecture and refutation is a superior way of gaining knowledge, than what I would call induction. But it seems that to say induction doesn't exist or doesn't work is going too far. On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 10:42:15PM -0600, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > So, Doug, explain to me how you come to believe in the validity of > induction? > > > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf > Of Douglas Roberts > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 2:43 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Just as a bye-the-way > > > > So, for reference: a 2X intelligence delta that we have all probably > experienced, perhaps without knowing it, would be from talking with a person > who had an IQ of 70, followed by engaging with a person having a140 IQ. > > I will ignore quibbles about the accuracy of IQ as an intelligence measure > for the purpose of this discussion. > > I suspect the less intelligent person truely believes the religious dogma > he's been taught. No ambiguity: true belief. > > I've observed that the more intelligent people put part of their intellect > to sleep when it comes to religion. They call this process "taking it as an > article of faith" when one of the irrational elements of their religion is > brought into the spotlight. > > So the question that I would have, were we all to suddenly evolve 2X > intelligence is: to what extent would we collectively be willing to suspend > our intelligent thought processes in order to continue to believe religious > bullshit? > > Working from my phone today... > > -Doug > > Sent from Android. > > On Mar 23, 2012 1:58 PM, "Robert J. Cordingley" <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > For starters what would you consider to be good and bad - assuming you are > still a human being, with human interests at least? It's a problem because > I haven't premised whether you have infinite knowledge to go with the > infinite intelligence 'cos the two together is/are looking like an > omni-something being etc. > > Ok, so let's assume humans evolve collectively to be 2x or 10x more > intelligent than now. How would society change? Would anyone vote for > Republicans? or Democrats? Would we even have a voting system? Would the > jails be empty? > > Thanks > Robert C > > On 3/23/12 1:23 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: > > Good question about infinite intelligence. Try to even frame a reference for > answering that one. > > Sent from Android. > > On Mar 23, 2012 12:14 PM, "Robert J. Cordingley" <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > I'm told many find comfort in the teachings of <insert your spiritual leader > here>. I thought it odd/insightful that Joseph Cambell > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_campbell> found the same core message > in the world's major religious teachings. I can believe moral atheists > share the same core teachings. Then there are those from all persuasions > that hijack a religion for their own purposes: political or financial power > - they can all burn in hell! :) But hey if it works even as a social > phenomenon, i.e. allows one to enjoy life and live longer and die in peace, > can we knock it? > > Otherwise I must congratulate Father Doug in becoming a man of the cloth at > the CotFSM <http://www.venganza.org/> and following in a long line of > inspired spiritual teachers. I liked the bit about ' we are anti-crazy > nonsense done in the name of religion.' (see the About page). Noodle on. > > Thanks, > Robert C > PS What would you believe if you had infinite intelligence? R > > On 3/22/12 11:31 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: > > Doug, I don't want to pick on you, but your certificate strikes me as > indirect bullying. > > > > I'm as atheistic as they come, but I know a number of people who (for > reasons that I don't understand) take religion quite seriously. They are > intelligent, pleasant people, not the sort to rub their beliefs in anyone's > face. Most are politically left of center. One has a bumper sticker that > reads "A proud member of the religious left". > > > > Why pick on them? I'm sure you don't intend to. I'm sure you are making fun > of the Rick Santorums of the world. It's just that by casting as wide a net > as the Flying Spaghetti Monster does, it also makes fun of everyone with > religious feelings. > > > > The answer someone like Sam Harris would give is that what they say is > either false or without any shred of objective support. But the people I'm > thinking of don't go around proclaiming their beliefs as The Truth. They go > about their business simply wanting to experience the world through a > different lens. The fact that I don't understand it -- and I don't; I'm > completely mystified by their way of thinking about certain things -- > doesn't give me the right to ridicule it. > > > > Sorry for the rant. > > > > > -- Russ > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > Don't want my FRIAM friends and acquaintances to be the last to know: > > > > If you feel like getting married, I can now conduct the ceremony. > > > > "With this rigatoni, I thee wed, etc." > > > > -Father Doug > > > > > -- > Doug Roberts > [hidden email] > [hidden email] > > http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins > > > 505-455-7333 - Office > 505-670-8195 - Cell > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics [hidden email] University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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I, too, can make an argument for the validity of induction; However, that's
not the point. I wanted to hear Doug;s Nick -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Russell Standish Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 11:22 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Just as a bye-the-way When we put it in a computer, it works. My email spam filter (spamassassin) uses a machine induction technique called Bayesian networks. It is remarkably effective at keeping spam out, and learning, in the process, what I consider to be spam. In order to persuade me that induction is invalid, you would need to explain why the above is not an example of induction. I have read David Deutsch's books where takes a swinging hammer to induction. I found these to be less than convincing. Moreover, the examples he gives of induction (and of induction failing) seem very similar to the spamassasin example above (which also fails, from time-to-time, as the occasional spam gets through). I have been on the lists Fabric of Reality and Beginning of Infinity, until I got kicked off for the suspected crime of being a Bayesian epistemologist, where such discussions have taken place, with the anti-induction crowd providing little substance other than to suggest read tomes and tomes of Popper, which I'm unlikely to do without a compelling reason. Surely, if induction is so incoherent, it can be demolished effectively in 100 words or less. BTW - I do agree with Deutsch that conjecture and refutation is a superior way of gaining knowledge, than what I would call induction. But it seems that to say induction doesn't exist or doesn't work is going too far. On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 10:42:15PM -0600, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > So, Doug, explain to me how you come to believe in the validity of > induction? > > > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On > Behalf Of Douglas Roberts > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 2:43 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Just as a bye-the-way > > > > So, for reference: a 2X intelligence delta that we have all probably > experienced, perhaps without knowing it, would be from talking with a > person who had an IQ of 70, followed by engaging with a person having a140 > > I will ignore quibbles about the accuracy of IQ as an intelligence > measure for the purpose of this discussion. > > I suspect the less intelligent person truely believes the religious > dogma he's been taught. No ambiguity: true belief. > > I've observed that the more intelligent people put part of their > intellect to sleep when it comes to religion. They call this process > "taking it as an article of faith" when one of the irrational elements > of their religion is brought into the spotlight. > > So the question that I would have, were we all to suddenly evolve 2X > intelligence is: to what extent would we collectively be willing to > suspend our intelligent thought processes in order to continue to > believe religious bullshit? > > Working from my phone today... > > -Doug > > Sent from Android. > > On Mar 23, 2012 1:58 PM, "Robert J. Cordingley" > <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > For starters what would you consider to be good and bad - assuming you > are still a human being, with human interests at least? It's a > problem because I haven't premised whether you have infinite knowledge > to go with the infinite intelligence 'cos the two together is/are > looking like an omni-something being etc. > > Ok, so let's assume humans evolve collectively to be 2x or 10x more > intelligent than now. How would society change? Would anyone vote > for Republicans? or Democrats? Would we even have a voting system? > Would the jails be empty? > > Thanks > Robert C > > On 3/23/12 1:23 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: > > Good question about infinite intelligence. Try to even frame a > reference for answering that one. > > Sent from Android. > > On Mar 23, 2012 12:14 PM, "Robert J. Cordingley" > <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > I'm told many find comfort in the teachings of <insert your spiritual > leader > here>. I thought it odd/insightful that Joseph Cambell > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_campbell> found the same core > message in the world's major religious teachings. I can believe moral > atheists share the same core teachings. Then there are those from all > persuasions that hijack a religion for their own purposes: political > or financial power > - they can all burn in hell! :) But hey if it works even as a social > phenomenon, i.e. allows one to enjoy life and live longer and die in > peace, can we knock it? > > Otherwise I must congratulate Father Doug in becoming a man of the > cloth at the CotFSM <http://www.venganza.org/> and following in a > long line of inspired spiritual teachers. I liked the bit about ' we > are anti-crazy nonsense done in the name of religion.' (see the About > > Thanks, > Robert C > PS What would you believe if you had infinite intelligence? R > > On 3/22/12 11:31 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: > > Doug, I don't want to pick on you, but your certificate strikes me as > indirect bullying. > > > > I'm as atheistic as they come, but I know a number of people who (for > reasons that I don't understand) take religion quite seriously. They > are intelligent, pleasant people, not the sort to rub their beliefs in > anyone's face. Most are politically left of center. One has a bumper > sticker that reads "A proud member of the religious left". > > > > Why pick on them? I'm sure you don't intend to. I'm sure you are > making fun of the Rick Santorums of the world. It's just that by > casting as wide a net as the Flying Spaghetti Monster does, it also > makes fun of everyone with religious feelings. > > > > The answer someone like Sam Harris would give is that what they say is > either false or without any shred of objective support. But the people > I'm thinking of don't go around proclaiming their beliefs as The > Truth. They go about their business simply wanting to experience the > world through a different lens. The fact that I don't understand it -- > and I don't; I'm completely mystified by their way of thinking about > certain things -- doesn't give me the right to ridicule it. > > > > Sorry for the rant. > > > > > -- Russ > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Douglas Roberts > <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > Don't want my FRIAM friends and acquaintances to be the last to know: > > > > If you feel like getting married, I can now conduct the ceremony. > > > > "With this rigatoni, I thee wed, etc." > > > > -Father Doug > > > > > -- > Doug Roberts > [hidden email] > [hidden email] > > http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins > > > 505-455-7333 - Office > 505-670-8195 - Cell > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics [hidden email] University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Russell Standish
While we wait for Doug...
The problem with induction is that the only good evidence for it is that several times in the past we have used the inductive method and it has worked. If you really gathered all the evidence, you would see such a strong trend that the logical conclusion would seem inevitable: We have every reason to think induction will continue working in the future. :- ) See related point here: http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2159#comic Eric On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 01:22 AM, "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]> wrote: Eric CharlesI, too, can make an argument for the validity of induction; However, that's not the point. I wanted to hear Doug;s Nick -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Russell Standish Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 11:22 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Just as a bye-the-way When we put it in a computer, it works. My email spam filter (spamassassin) uses a machine induction technique called Bayesian networks. It is remarkably effective at keeping spam out, and learning, in the process, what I consider to be spam. In order to persuade me that induction is invalid, you would need to explain why the above is not an example of induction. I have read David Deutsch's books where takes a swinging hammer to induction. I found these to be less than convincing. Moreover, the examples he gives of induction (and of induction failing) seem very similar to the spamassasin example above (which also fails, from time-to-time, as the occasional spam gets through). I have been on the lists Fabric of Reality and Beginning of Infinity, until I got kicked off for the suspected crime of being a Bayesian epistemologist, where such discussions have taken place, with the anti-induction crowd providing little substance other than to suggest read tomes and tomes of Popper, which I'm unlikely to do without a compelling reason. Surely, if induction is so incoherent, it can be demolished effectively in 100 words or less. BTW - I do agree with Deutsch that conjecture and refutation is a superior way of gaining knowledge, than what I would call induction. But it seems that to say induction doesn't exist or doesn't work is going too far. On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 10:42:15PM -0600, Nicholas Thompson wrote: > So, Doug, explain to me how you come to believe in the validity of > induction? > > > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On > Behalf Of Douglas Roberts > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 2:43 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Just as a bye-the-way > > > > So, for reference: a 2X intelligence delta that we have all probably > experienced, perhaps without knowing it, would be from talking with a > person who had an IQ of 70, followed by engaging with a person having a140 IQ. > > I will ignore quibbles about the accuracy of IQ as an intelligence > measure for the purpose of this discussion. > > I suspect the less intelligent person truely believes the religious > dogma he's been taught. No ambiguity: true belief. > > I've observed that the more intelligent people put part of their > intellect to sleep when it comes to religion. They call this process > "taking it as an article of faith" when one of the irrational elements > of their religion is brought into the spotlight. > > So the question that I would have, were we all to suddenly evolve 2X > intelligence is: to what extent would we collectively be willing to > suspend our intelligent thought processes in order to continue to > believe religious bullshit? > > Working from my phone today... > > -Doug > > Sent from Android. > > On Mar 23, 2012 1:58 PM, "Robert J. Cordingley" > <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > For starters what would you consider to be good and bad - assuming you > are still a human being, with human interests at least? It's a > problem because I haven't premised whether you have infinite knowledge > to go with the infinite intelligence 'cos the two together is/are > looking like an omni-something being etc. > > Ok, so let's assume humans evolve collectively to be 2x or 10x more > intelligent than now. How would society change? Would anyone vote > for Republicans? or Democrats? Would we even have a voting system? > Would the jails be empty? > > Thanks > Robert C > > On 3/23/12 1:23 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: > > Good question about infinite intelligence. Try to even frame a > reference for answering that one. > > Sent from Android. > > On Mar 23, 2012 12:14 PM, "Robert J. Cordingley" > <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > I'm told many find comfort in the teachings of <insert your spiritual > leader > here>. I thought it odd/insightful that Joseph Cambell > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_campbell> found the same core > message in the world's major religious teachings. I can believe moral > atheists share the same core teachings. Then there are those from all > persuasions that hijack a religion for their own purposes: political > or financial power > - they can all burn in hell! :) But hey if it works even as a social > phenomenon, i.e. allows one to enjoy life and live longer and die in > peace, can we knock it? > > Otherwise I must congratulate Father Doug in becoming a man of the > cloth at the CotFSM <http://www.venganza.org/> and following in a > long line of inspired spiritual teachers. I liked the bit about ' we > are anti-crazy nonsense done in the name of religion.' (see the About page). Noodle on. > > Thanks, > Robert C > PS What would you believe if you had infinite intelligence? R > > On 3/22/12 11:31 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: > > Doug, I don't want to pick on you, but your certificate strikes me as > indirect bullying. > > > > I'm as atheistic as they come, but I know a number of people who (for > reasons that I don't understand) take religion quite seriously. They > are intelligent, pleasant people, not the sort to rub their beliefs in > anyone's face. Most are politically left of center. One has a bumper > sticker that reads "A proud member of the religious left". > > > > Why pick on them? I'm sure you don't intend to. I'm sure you are > making fun of the Rick Santorums of the world. It's just that by > casting as wide a net as the Flying Spaghetti Monster does, it also > makes fun of everyone with religious feelings. > > > > The answer someone like Sam Harris would give is that what they say is > either false or without any shred of objective support. But the people > I'm thinking of don't go around proclaiming their beliefs as The > Truth. They go about their business simply wanting to experience the > world through a different lens. The fact that I don't understand it -- > and I don't; I'm completely mystified by their way of thinking about > certain things -- doesn't give me the right to ridicule it. > > > > Sorry for the rant. > > > > > -- Russ > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Douglas Roberts > <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > Don't want my FRIAM friends and acquaintances to be the last to know: > > > > If you feel like getting married, I can now conduct the ceremony. > > > > "With this rigatoni, I thee wed, etc." > > > > -Father Doug > > > > > -- > Doug Roberts > [hidden email] > [hidden email] > > http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins > > > 505-455-7333 - Office > 505-670-8195 - Cell > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics [hidden email] University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org Professional Student and Assistant Professor of Psychology Penn State University Altoona, PA 16601 ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
Re: Just as a bye-the-way
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In reply to this post by Robert J. Cordingley
Thanks,
I liked this other one too. http://www.naute.com/jokes/atheist.phtml On 3/24/12, Robert J. Cordingley <[hidden email]> wrote: > Then there's the story of the Scottish atheist fishing in Lock Ness when > suddenly his boat was tossed in the air. The fisherman gazed in fright > at the Loch Ness Monster opening it's terrible jaws about to devour > fisherman, boat and all. The fisherman cried out "God help me!". God > replied " Why should I - you don't believe in me!" "Give me a break, I > didn't believe in the Loch Ness monster a moment ago either!" > > Timing may be everything. > > Thanks > Robert C ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Robert,
I think that's the best I've ever seen. Thanks, Nick -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 7:14 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Just as a bye-the-way Thanks, I liked this other one too. http://www.naute.com/jokes/atheist.phtml On 3/24/12, Robert J. Cordingley <[hidden email]> wrote: > Then there's the story of the Scottish atheist fishing in Lock Ness > when suddenly his boat was tossed in the air. The fisherman gazed in > fright at the Loch Ness Monster opening it's terrible jaws about to > devour fisherman, boat and all. The fisherman cried out "God help > me!". God replied " Why should I - you don't believe in me!" "Give > me a break, I didn't believe in the Loch Ness monster a moment ago either!" > > Timing may be everything. > > Thanks > Robert C ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
While we're waiting for Nick, I'll go ahead and share one of my favorite examples of forced induction:
--Doug
On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote: BTW, I'm especially partial to forced induction, so I'm hoping you pick that one, Nick. Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Doug, I sent this response at 9.39. did you not get it. I think the server throws away one in five of my messages, just for fun. From: Nicholas Thompson [mailto:[hidden email]] Of course. Sorry. Inductive reasoning consists of inferring general principles or rules from specific facts. Nick From: [hidden email] [hidden email] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts I'll be happy, perhaps even thrilled to share my thoughts on induction, Nick. First, however, we need to narrow the question down to be a bit more specific. The word induction has many applications and connotations. Here are a few: In biology and chemistry: § Inductive effect is the redistribution of electron density through molecular sigma bonds § § Induction period - the time interval between the initial cause and the appearance of the first measurable effect § § Regulation of gene expression, a process in which a molecule (e.g. a drug) induces (i.e. initiates or enhances) or inhibits the expression of an enzyme § § Induction (birth), induction of childbirth § § Asymmetric induction is the formation of one specific stereoisomer in the presence of a nearby chiral center § § Inductive reasoning aptitude, an aptitude or personality characteristic § § § Regulation of gene expression § § § Enzyme induction and inhibition § In mathematics: § Mathematical induction, a method of proof in the field of mathematics § Strong induction, or Complete induction, a variant of mathematical induction § Transfinite induction, a kind of mathematical induction § Epsilon-induction, a kind of transfinite induction § Structural induction, a generalization of mathematical induction § Statistical induction, also known as statistical inference. § induced representation, in representation theory: an operation for obtaining a representation of an object from one of its subobjects. § Parabolic induction: a method of constructing group representations of a reductive group from representations of its parabolic subgroups. In philosophy, logic, and computer science: § Inductive reasoning, a form of reasoning often confused with scientific reasoning § Backward induction in game theory and economics § Concept learning is the induction of a concept (category) from observations In physics: § Electromagnetic induction in physics and engineering § Induction heating, the process of heating an electrically conducting object § Induction cooker, which uses induction heating for cooking. § Electrostatic induction in physics § Forced induction, with combustion engines, is the use of a gas compressor added to the air intake So, you could perhaps pick which application of induction you are interested in, and I will be, as I said, just tickled pink to expound on it. --Doug On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote: I, too, can make an argument for the validity of induction; However, that's
Of Russell Standish > So, Doug, explain to me how you come to believe in the validity of > induction? > > > > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On > Behalf Of Douglas Roberts > Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 2:43 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Just as a bye-the-way > > > > So, for reference: a 2X intelligence delta that we have all probably > experienced, perhaps without knowing it, would be from talking with a > person who had an IQ of 70, followed by engaging with a person having a140 > > I will ignore quibbles about the accuracy of IQ as an intelligence > measure for the purpose of this discussion. > > I suspect the less intelligent person truely believes the religious > dogma he's been taught. No ambiguity: true belief. > > I've observed that the more intelligent people put part of their > intellect to sleep when it comes to religion. They call this process > "taking it as an article of faith" when one of the irrational elements > of their religion is brought into the spotlight. > > So the question that I would have, were we all to suddenly evolve 2X > intelligence is: to what extent would we collectively be willing to > suspend our intelligent thought processes in order to continue to > believe religious bullshit? > > Working from my phone today... > > -Doug > > Sent from Android. > > On Mar 23, 2012 1:58 PM, "Robert J. Cordingley" > <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > For starters what would you consider to be good and bad - assuming you > are still a human being, with human interests at least? It's a > problem because I haven't premised whether you have infinite knowledge > to go with the infinite intelligence 'cos the two together is/are > looking like an omni-something being etc. > > Ok, so let's assume humans evolve collectively to be 2x or 10x more > intelligent than now. How would society change? Would anyone vote > for Republicans? or Democrats? Would we even have a voting system? > Would the jails be empty? > > Thanks > Robert C > > On 3/23/12 1:23 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: > > Good question about infinite intelligence. Try to even frame a > reference for answering that one. > > Sent from Android. > > On Mar 23, 2012 12:14 PM, "Robert J. Cordingley" > <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > I'm told many find comfort in the teachings of <insert your spiritual > leader > here>. I thought it odd/insightful that Joseph Cambell > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_campbell> found the same core > message in the world's major religious teachings. I can believe moral > atheists share the same core teachings. Then there are those from all > persuasions that hijack a religion for their own purposes: political > or financial power > - they can all burn in hell! :) But hey if it works even as a social > phenomenon, i.e. allows one to enjoy life and live longer and die in > peace, can we knock it? > > Otherwise I must congratulate Father Doug in becoming a man of the > cloth at the CotFSM <http://www.venganza.org/> and following in a > long line of inspired spiritual teachers. I liked the bit about ' we > are anti-crazy nonsense done in the name of religion.' (see the About > > Thanks, > Robert C > PS What would you believe if you had infinite intelligence? R > > On 3/22/12 11:31 PM, Russ Abbott wrote: > > Doug, I don't want to pick on you, but your certificate strikes me as > indirect bullying. > > > > I'm as atheistic as they come, but I know a number of people who (for > reasons that I don't understand) take religion quite seriously. They > are intelligent, pleasant people, not the sort to rub their beliefs in > anyone's face. Most are politically left of center. One has a bumper > sticker that reads "A proud member of the religious left". > > > > Why pick on them? I'm sure you don't intend to. I'm sure you are > making fun of the Rick Santorums of the world. It's just that by > casting as wide a net as the Flying Spaghetti Monster does, it also > makes fun of everyone with religious feelings. > > > > The answer someone like Sam Harris would give is that what they say is > either false or without any shred of objective support. But the people > I'm thinking of don't go around proclaiming their beliefs as The > Truth. They go about their business simply wanting to experience the > world through a different lens. The fact that I don't understand it -- > and I don't; I'm completely mystified by their way of thinking about > certain things -- doesn't give me the right to ridicule it. > > > > Sorry for the rant. > > > > > -- Russ > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 8:07 PM, Douglas Roberts > <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > Don't want my FRIAM friends and acquaintances to be the last to know: > > > > If you feel like getting married, I can now conduct the ceremony. > > > > "With this rigatoni, I thee wed, etc." > > > > -Father Doug > > > > > -- > Doug Roberts > [hidden email] > [hidden email] > > http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins > > > <a href="tel:505-455-7333">505-455-7333 - Office > <a href="tel:505-670-8195">505-670-8195 - Cell > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics [hidden email] University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Nope, didn't get that one, Nick. I'll get right on this...
On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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