It's the Spies, Stupid!

[Peter Lissaman]

Thanks to all who responded in much more courteous terms than my present
title!  A'course, it reminded me and well should I have remembered!  But
"old men forget" as da Bard had it (Lear).  My old tutor (thesis advisor in
these parts, (one S.W., for those in the know )) was one of the "Bletchley
Boys" who cracked Enigma in WW II.  And, as a math grad student, I well
remember more than 1/2 century ago hearing his tales as we looked out over
the rainy rooftops of Cambridge!  A'course, the Enigma Machine was entirely
deterministic, mechanical, but verrray complicated. Wheels within wheels!!
New setting each morning!  I can imagine some totally bored Wehrmacht
Feldwebel cranking away at this horizontal axis coffee grinder while he
slurped his ersatz Kaffee and wished he had some sugar!    The Brits said,
languidly and  typically Englishly, "we usually managed to 'sort out' the
day's code by tea time".  Also, being an honorable Englishman, (there were
still a few left then), my tutor said very little of substance because the
Official Secrets Act ran for 50 years.
My remarks are really meant entertain, so thanks to all for putting up with
this BS!!!

Peter Lissaman,  Da Vinci Ventures

Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.

1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
TEL: [phone]                        FAX: [phone]

> [Original Message]
> From: <friam-request at redfish.com>
> To: <friam at redfish.com>
> Date: 7/22/2007 10:02:51 AM
> Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 49, Issue 20
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Why "true" random? (Peter Lissaman)
>    2. Re: Why "true" random? (Robert Holmes)
>    3. Re: Why "true" random? (Russell Standish)
>    4. Re: Why "true" random? (Prof David West)
>    5. Re: Why "true" random? (Phil Henshaw)
>    6. Re: Why "true" random? (Douglas Roberts)
>    7. Re: Why "true" random? (Phil Henshaw)
>    8. Re: Why "true" random? (Roger Frye)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:24:42 -0600
> From: "Peter Lissaman" <plissaman at earthlink.net>
> Subject: [FRIAM] Why "true" random?
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Message-ID: <380-220077621162442468 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true" randomness???

I very well remember the early, good old, bad old, days of Aerospace, in
the 50's, when we were really doing practical earthshattering things --
like going to the moon -- sans computers!!  The RAND corporation, for whom
I consulted, published a typed book (size of a Manhattan telephone
directory) of "random" numbers  for engineering application.  Much
entertainment was occasioned when, about three months later, they
distributed a list of "typos" to their original list of random numbers.
Today I use homemade random numbers alla time for real problems,
specifically the actual response of real flight vehicles in real
atmospheric turbulence.  Flight tests support  analysis, in the sense that
what we predict is not obviously incorrect.  We have never found it
necessary to utilize any more "perfectly random" "random" sequences!

>
>
> Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures
>
> Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.
>
> 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
> TEL: [phone] FAX: [phone]
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 13:34:44 -0600
> From: "Robert Holmes" <robert at holmesacosta.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random?
> To: plissaman at earthlink.net, "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> Coffee Group" <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID:
> <857770150707211234h692a7989h5debe46c1b558b3d at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Cryptography. The required robustness of a random generator is highly
> sensitive to the intended application;
>
>    - Generating a "thought for the day" for your blog? Required
>    randomness = low.
>    - Response testing a missile system? Required randomness = medium
>    - Stealing above test results, encrypting them and transmitting them
>    to Al Quaeda in a form that you hope the NSA won't understand? Required
>    randomness = high
>
> Robert
>
> On 7/21/07, Peter Lissaman <plissaman at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >  Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true"

randomness???
> > I very well remember the early, good old, bad old, days of Aerospace,
in the
> > 50's, when we were really doing practical earthshattering things -- like
> > going to the moon -- sans computers!!  The RAND corporation, for whom I
> > consulted, published a typed book (size of a Manhattan telephone
directory)
> > of "random" numbers  for engineering application.  Much entertainment
was
> > occasioned when, about three months later, they distributed a list of
> > "typos" to their original list of random numbers.  Today I use homemade
> > random numbers alla time for real problems, specifically the actual
response
> > of real flight vehicles in real atmospheric turbulence.  Flight tests
> > support  analysis, in the sense that what we predict is not obviously
> > incorrect.  We have never found it necessary to utilize any more
"perfectly

> > random" "random" sequences!
> >
> >
> > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures
> >
> > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.
> >
> > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
> > TEL: [phone] FAX: [phone]
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:

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/attachment-0001.html

>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:27:33 +1000
> From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random?
> To: plissaman at earthlink.net, The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <20070721042733.GG845 at hells-dell.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Cryptographic applications require true randomness. If your cipher
> used on a pseudo-random number generator, then a cracker discovering
> your algorithm and key has broken your code.
>
> I also have a hunch that genuine randomness is needed for open-ended
> evolutionary systems. Here, the evol algorithm is in the position of
> the code cracker, and once the code is cracked, the evol algorithm
> stops. I had a workshop paper on this in 2004, which has some problems
> with it. The concept is controversial, to say the least.
>
> Cheers
>
> On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 10:24:42AM -0600, Peter Lissaman wrote:
> > Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true"

randomness???  I very well remember the early, good old, bad old, days of
Aerospace, in the 50's, when we were really doing practical earthshattering
things -- like going to the moon -- sans computers!!  The RAND corporation,
for whom I consulted, published a typed book (size of a Manhattan telephone
directory) of "random" numbers  for engineering application.  Much
entertainment was occasioned when, about three months later, they
distributed a list of "typos" to their original list of random numbers.
Today I use homemade random numbers alla time for real problems,
specifically the actual response of real flight vehicles in real
atmospheric turbulence.  Flight tests support  analysis, in the sense that
what we predict is not obviously incorrect.  We have never found it
necessary to utilize any more "perfectly random" "random" sequences!

> >
> >
> > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures
> >
> > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.
> >
> > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
> > TEL: [phone] FAX: [phone]
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> --
>
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> A/Prof Russell Standish                  Phone [phone] (mobile)
> Mathematics                        
> UNSW SYDNEY 2052                 hpcoder at hpcoders.com.au
> Australia                                http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 21:55:30 -0400
> From: "Prof David West" <profwest at fastmail.fm>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random?
> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group"
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <1185069330.26136.1201375009 at webmail.messagingengine.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
>
>
>
> " cryptography ... missile system ... encrypting ...  transmitting ...
> Al Quaeda ... NSA"  sequence occurring twice within 7 hours in the same
> mail-list.  Somewhere in VA a computer just burped.  Expect the black
> helicopters within 24 hours.  :)
>
> davew
>
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 13:34:44 -0600, "Robert Holmes"
> <robert at holmesacosta.com> said:
> > Cryptography. The required robustness of a random generator is highly
> > sensitive to the intended application;
> >
> >    - Generating a "thought for the day" for your blog? Required
> >    randomness = low.
> >    - Response testing a missile system? Required randomness = medium
> >    - Stealing above test results, encrypting them and transmitting them
> >    to Al Quaeda in a form that you hope the NSA won't understand?
> >    Required
> >    randomness = high
> >
> > Robert
> >
> > On 7/21/07, Peter Lissaman <plissaman at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >  Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true"

randomness???
> > > I very well remember the early, good old, bad old, days of Aerospace,
in the
> > > 50's, when we were really doing practical earthshattering things --
like
> > > going to the moon -- sans computers!!  The RAND corporation, for whom
I
> > > consulted, published a typed book (size of a Manhattan telephone
directory)
> > > of "random" numbers  for engineering application.  Much entertainment
was
> > > occasioned when, about three months later, they distributed a list of
> > > "typos" to their original list of random numbers.  Today I use
homemade
> > > random numbers alla time for real problems, specifically the actual
response
> > > of real flight vehicles in real atmospheric turbulence.  Flight tests
> > > support  analysis, in the sense that what we predict is not obviously
> > > incorrect.  We have never found it necessary to utilize any more
"perfectly

> > > random" "random" sequences!
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures
> > >
> > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.
> > >
> > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
> > > TEL: [phone] FAX: [phone]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ============================================================
> > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> > >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:19:25 -0400
> From: "Phil Henshaw" <sy at synapse9.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random?
> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <000001c7cc0f$1b4d1240$2f01a8c0 at SavyII>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Or what about 'decynchronization', rather than random noise..to erase
> inconvenient pattern?   Probably has nothing to do with cryptography,
> though, I suppose, as I expect that the sort of lab experiment thing the
> people at the SASO conference were talking about has no mathematical
> representation as yet, just ways of producing them.    At least that's
> another property that efficiently hides pattern.  It came up that some
> of the work on syncronization, that doing the opposite had valuable
> proprerties in preventing congestion and surges when used to produce
> desynchronized flows.     Interesting work though!
>
>
> Phil Henshaw                       ????.?? ? `?.????
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 680 Ft. Washington Ave
> NY NY 10040                      
> tel: [phone]                
> e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com          
> explorations: www.synapse9.com    
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com
> > [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish
> > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 12:28 AM
> > To: plissaman at earthlink.net; The Friday Morning Applied
> > Complexity Coffee Group
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random?
> >
> >
> > Cryptographic applications require true randomness. If your
> > cipher used on a pseudo-random number generator, then a
> > cracker discovering your algorithm and key has broken your code.
> >
> > I also have a hunch that genuine randomness is needed for
> > open-ended evolutionary systems. Here, the evol algorithm is
> > in the position of the code cracker, and once the code is
> > cracked, the evol algorithm stops. I had a workshop paper on
> > this in 2004, which has some problems with it. The concept is
> > controversial, to say the least.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 10:24:42AM -0600, Peter Lissaman wrote:
> > > Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true"
> > > randomness???  I very well remember the early, good old,
> > bad old, days
> > > of Aerospace, in the 50's, when we were really doing practical
> > > earthshattering things -- like going to the moon -- sans
> > computers!!  
> > > The RAND corporation, for whom I consulted, published a typed book
> > > (size of a Manhattan telephone directory) of "random" numbers  for
> > > engineering application.  Much entertainment was occasioned when,
> > > about three months later, they distributed a list of
> > "typos" to their
> > > original list of random numbers.  Today I use homemade
> > random numbers
> > > alla time for real problems, specifically the actual
> > response of real
> > > flight vehicles in real atmospheric turbulence.  Flight
> > tests support  
> > > analysis, in the sense that what we predict is not obviously
> > > incorrect.  We have never found it necessary to utilize any more
> > > "perfectly random" "random" sequences!
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures
> > >
> > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.
> > >
> > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
> > > TEL: [phone] FAX: [phone]
> > > ============================================================
> > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures,
> > > archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> > --
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------------
> > A/Prof Russell Standish                  Phone [phone] (mobile)
> > Mathematics                        
> > UNSW SYDNEY 2052                 hpcoder at hpcoders.com.au
> > Australia                                http://www.hpcoders.com.au
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------------
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:18:36 -0600
> From: "Douglas Roberts" <doug at parrot-farm.net>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random?
> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group"
> <friam at redfish.com>, plissaman at earthlink.net
> Message-ID:
> <f16528920707212218t5d7a368bk3c81a01bf7b3af63 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Simulations of stochastic processes also require good RN generators,
> especially for simulations of large systems with (I hate to use this word)
> emergent behavioral properties.  A bad RN generator will introduce

emergent

> behavior that will be "flavored" by a bad random sequences.
>
>
> --
> Doug Roberts, RTI International
> droberts at rti.org
> doug at parrot-farm.net
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-670-8195 - Cell
>
>
> On 7/20/07, Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au> wrote:
> >
> > Cryptographic applications require true randomness. If your cipher
> > used on a pseudo-random number generator, then a cracker discovering
> > your algorithm and key has broken your code.
> >
> > I also have a hunch that genuine randomness is needed for open-ended
> > evolutionary systems. Here, the evol algorithm is in the position of
> > the code cracker, and once the code is cracked, the evol algorithm
> > stops. I had a workshop paper on this in 2004, which has some problems
> > with it. The concept is controversial, to say the least.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 10:24:42AM -0600, Peter Lissaman wrote:
> > > Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true"
> > randomness???  I very well remember the early, good old, bad old, days

of
> > Aerospace, in the 50's, when we were really doing practical
earthshattering
> > things -- like going to the moon -- sans computers!!  The RAND
corporation,
> > for whom I consulted, published a typed book (size of a Manhattan
telephone
> > directory) of "random" numbers  for engineering application.  Much
> > entertainment was occasioned when, about three months later, they
> > distributed a list of "typos" to their original list of random
> > numbers.  Today I use homemade random numbers alla time for real
problems,
> > specifically the actual response of real flight vehicles in real
atmospheric

> > turbulence.  Flight tests support  analysis, in the sense that what we
> > predict is not obviously incorrect.  We have never found it necessary to
> > utilize any more "perfectly random" "random" sequences!
> > >
> > >
> > > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures
> > >
> > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.
> > >
> > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
> > > TEL: [phone] FAX: [phone]
> > > ============================================================
> > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > A/Prof Russell Standish                  Phone [phone] (mobile)
> > Mathematics
> > UNSW SYDNEY 2052                         hpcoder at hpcoders.com.au
> > Australia                                http://www.hpcoders.com.au
> >
> >
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
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/attachment-0001.html

>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 08:31:25 -0400
> From: "Phil Henshaw" <sy at synapse9.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random?
> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <000801c7cc5c$38c4fd40$2f01a8c0 at SavyII>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Not sure really what the inputs always used, but I think these Self-org
> & Self-adapt algorithms the SASO engineers were playing with didn't
> always use random generators to produce the systemic effects they were
> getting.   Obviously all input effects all output in some sort of way,
> but it was the outcomes that would come from the whole gamete of
> unspecified inputs that seemed to be the 'phase space profile' they were
> most interested in.  
>  
> Many of the papers were on how the inputs could seriously 'misbehave'
> and still not screw up the control schemes, often discussed in terms of
> 'malicious agent' concepts, of which the real net has plenty real
> examples!     I also found them very receptive to considering not only
> what a malicious person would think of doing to defeat someone else's
> operating plan, but also the 'malicious creativity' of natural system
> emergence as a focus of design contingencies.
>  
>  
>
> Phil Henshaw                       ????.?? ? `?.????
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 680 Ft. Washington Ave
> NY NY 10040                      
> tel: [phone]                
> e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com          
> explorations: www.synapse9.com <http://www.synapse9.com/>    
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On
> Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
> Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 1:19 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group;
> plissaman at earthlink.net
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random?
>
>
> Simulations of stochastic processes also require good RN generators,
> especially for simulations of large systems with (I hate to use this
> word) emergent behavioral properties.  A bad RN generator will introduce
> emergent behavior that will be "flavored" by a bad random sequences.
>
>
> --
> Doug Roberts, RTI International
> droberts at rti.org
> doug at parrot-farm.net
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-670-8195 - Cell
>
>
>
> On 7/20/07, Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au> wrote:
>
> Cryptographic applications require true randomness. If your cipher
> used on a pseudo-random number generator, then a cracker discovering
> your algorithm and key has broken your code.
>
> I also have a hunch that genuine randomness is needed for open-ended
> evolutionary systems. Here, the evol algorithm is in the position of
> the code cracker, and once the code is cracked, the evol algorithm
> stops. I had a workshop paper on this in 2004, which has some problems
> with it. The concept is controversial, to say the least.
>
> Cheers
>
> On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 10:24:42AM -0600, Peter Lissaman wrote:
> > Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true"
> randomness???  I very well remember the early, good old, bad old, days
> of Aerospace, in the 50's, when we were really doing practical
> earthshattering things -- like going to the moon -- sans computers!!
> The RAND corporation, for whom I consulted, published a typed book (size
> of a Manhattan telephone directory) of "random" numbers  for engineering
> application.  Much entertainment was occasioned when, about three months
> later, they distributed a list of "typos" to their original list of
> random numbers.  Today I use homemade random numbers alla time for real
> problems, specifically the actual response of real flight vehicles in
> real atmospheric turbulence.  Flight tests support  analysis, in the
> sense that what we predict is not obviously incorrect.  We have never
> found it necessary to utilize any more "perfectly random" "random"
> sequences!
> >
> >
> > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures
> >
> > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.
> >
> > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
> > TEL: [phone] FAX: [phone]
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> --
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> A/Prof Russell Standish                  Phone [phone] (mobile)
> Mathematics
> UNSW SYDNEY 2052                         hpcoder at hpcoders.com.au
> Australia                                http://www.hpcoders.com.au
> <http://www.hpcoders.com.au>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 07:40:10 -0600
> From: "Roger Frye" <rfrye at qforma.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random?
> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group"
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <op.tvvb880hmlpho7 at vivarini.frye>
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> I would argue the opposite.  While I agree with Doug that you need good  
> RNGs (though not necessarily true RNGs) in order to avoid bias, the  
> problem with good pseudo- or true- RNGs is that they have order N^2  
> convergence for Monte Carlo simulations.  Quasi-random number generators  
> on the other hand (such as multiples of an irrational square root, or a  
> Peano tiling) converge in order N.  If you can trust the results, faster  
> conergence lets you simulate more.
> -Roger
>
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:18:36 -0600, Douglas Roberts

<doug at parrot-farm.net>  

> wrote:
>
> > Simulations of stochastic processes also require good RN generators,
> > especially for simulations of large systems with (I hate to use this  
> > word)
> > emergent behavioral properties.  A bad RN generator will introduce  
> > emergent
> > behavior that will be "flavored" by a bad random sequences.
> >
> >
>
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> End of Friam Digest, Vol 49, Issue 20
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