Is the new president mentally ill?

[Jochen Fromm-5]

Courageous people like professor Klemperer or bishop von Galen remind us what is right and what is wrong, even after all these years. Hannah Szenes, a Jewish resistance fighter in WWII allegedly said

"There are stars who's light only reaches the earth long after they have fallen appart. There are people who's remembrance gives light in this world, long after they have passed away. This light shines in our darkest nights on the road we must follow."

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/12/17 08:24 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

Meryl Streep reminds me of Clemens August Graf von Galen, who was one of the few bishops that had the courage to criticize the Nazi regime. He was a bishop in my hometown Münster near the Dutch border. In his sermons he criticized that the Nazis were killing innocent disabled people. The program was named T4. The Nazis let him live because he was too popular among the people. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen

Many other priests and bishops were imprisoned by the Gestapo  (the secret state police) in concentration camps and died. In St. Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin many of those are mentioned on memorial plagues. While it may be futile to resist, those who have the courage to do it are not forgotten. 

It can also help to document the things that are unfolding, the violations of human rights, the corruption, and the injustice. In Dresden there was a Jewish professor Victor Klemperer who covered the actions of the Nazi regime in his diaries and journals. He was an important witness of all the injustice that happened. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: glen ☣ <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/12/17 02:07 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

But the question is what actions are guided by remote diagnosis?  I admit that I hope high visibility shaming like that from Streep, when added to the rest of the stress he will be / has been under, will make him go away.  But it's not likely for the same reasons Steve cites that blame and stigma won't really work on him.

I suppose if we could really confirm that he's a particular type of narcissist, then we could build models of what he may or may not do and choose actions based on their expected efficacy.  But because, almost by definition, everyone who willingly runs for President is a narcissist of some sort or other and to differing extent, that diagnosis isn't helpful.

Listening to the confirmation hearings is more helpful, I think.  Take note of all the (many) issues where Trump and his appointees express diametrically opposite positions.  Focus on those fissures.  At best, his administration will shatter.  At worst, the more distance you can put between the incompetent Cheeto and the competent people surrounding him, the more likely we'll end up with a Bush2 or a late-stage-Reagan ... maybe not good, but not catastrophic.

On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best.
> Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.
> Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...


--
☣ glen

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[Eric Charles-2]

Jochen,

So much of that exists by default though. I find it distasteful to see the president's picture in post offices and the governors' pictures at the department of motor vehicles. If Trump has his pictures there, but they are five times bigger, I won't be significantly more distasteful. And if I drive to Yellowstone, and it says "Welcome to The Trump Yellowstone Experience", it won't give me nightmares. To the extent that it is tasteless, it is also inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. At least, it won't worry me on anything like the magnitude of worry some seem to be experienced while noting that the nuclear football follows him around. And, as I said, to the extent that his pride is locked into people thinking highly of The Trump Presidency Experience, one would expect a functional narcissist to be ruthless in ensuring that things went in ways that would continue to garner public adoration.... which generally (but not always) means running the country as well as possible.

To the extent that, as you say, "Marketing is no way to make America great again", it is hard to view Obama's Peace Prize as anything other than marketing at this point, and many seemed to think at the time that the he had somehow made us great before even entering office. Marketing has (unfortunately) been an increasingly important part of the job for a long time now, and if it something that is going to be done, it doesn't bother me that it will now being done more openly.

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 6:34 PM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best. 

Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.

Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Eric Charles <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/11/17 22:08 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

This is, overall, a strange concern, because you need additional layers of analysis. Functional narcissists do well because they have particular strengths, and when those strengths are on the side of third parties, those third parties tend to do quite well. To the extent that we can get Trump's narcissism to effectively feed off of the success of the country (which he seems quite willing to do), things will probably go quite well. To the extent that he is able to look at Putin and say "Who care's what you think? I'm president of the U.S., which is doing great by the way, terrific, and you are at the top of a crumbled empire," I don't think there is any risk of reaching for the football. A nuclear bomb wouldn't be good for the stock market, wouldn't help real estate prices, wouldn't help convince Ford to move that factory to the U.S., where Trump could do a ribbon cutting in front of an adulating crowd.

People keep saying that he is quick to anger, holds grudges, goes on the attack to much, but, frankly, we are mostly talking about tweets here. Has he ever bought a company just to fire someone? Is there an implication he has ever had people killed who were suing him (something well within his financial means)? Has he started a company to bankrupt someone else in the same niche who pissed him off? Are we really afraid he will go from tweet to nuclear launch with no escalation in between? What past history of escalation do we have to suggest that is a thing to worry about? And, in the mean time, might we not get some countries to the bargaining table based on the perception that Trump won't rule nuclear launch out, who might not be dealing with us otherwise?

If we are lucky, we have an effective narcissist on our side. If we are unlucky we have a reasonably competent businessman, in way over his head. Either way, I'm not worried he'll launch a nuke in week 2.

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 1:54 AM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

I posted this on Google+, since we have a lot of psychologists here you might be interested too?

Psychologists, therapists and mental health professionals seem to be fascinated and terrified alike by the new president who has not only become a brand, but is nothing but a brand:

1. he seems to be a textbook case of a narcissistic personality disorder
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-greene/is-donald-trump-mentally_b_13693174.html

2. he was elected although he imitates the behavior of an massive Internet troll
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-embodied-mind/201701/unified-theory-trump

3. he displays a total lack of honesty and truth-telling
http://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

All DSM-5 criteria of a narcissistic personality disorder seem to be fulfilled. Should we be worried? What do you think? He shows a clear need for instant retaliation if someone criticizes him, which is obviously some form a narcissistic rage. It is clearly more than a self-serving bias, and such a deep personality disorder is not harmless at all. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-serving_bias

The problem is he is in a position where he can pull the strings now, as the commander in chief of the most powerful army. The US has about 2000 nuclear weapons on high alert, and there is a soldier with the nuclear football following the president at all times. What could go wrong?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_football

-Jochen

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[Eric Charles-2]

The comparison of Meryl Streep to Klemperer or von Galen seems more baffling to me than the original conversation. As some on social media have been pointing out, she stood in a room full of like minded people, and spoke their collective mind, with no risk to her career or her person. She didn't say anything not being chanted from the rooftops by hundreds of thousands of other people, and said publically, by prominent celebrities and members of the press every day.

Are we really worried Meryl will be disappeared in the coming weeks, and gassed? Are we worried she will be hit with false charges, arrested without trial, and have her properties become forfeit to the state? Are we even worried she might be blacklisted and never act again? And even if she did, are we worried she won't be able to get by in this world and support her family with the $75 million she already has? Those are honest questions.

Maybe I'm very confused about what "courageous" means. I would consider the average BLM marcher, or women's march participant, more courageous. They could be attacked by police or counter protesters, they could be arrested, they could be fired from their jobs, they could become ostracized by their communities, etc. Heck, Jill Stein got herself arrested at Standing Rock and hardly anyone seemed to notice. I'm not saying Meryl didn't give a good speech, or that it was unimportant, but I honestly wonder what risk we really think she faces as a result of that speech, which leads us to dub her act so courageous, and to compare it to the actions of the other individuals mentioned.

 

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Meryl Streep reminds me of Clemens August Graf von Galen, who was one of the few bishops that had the courage to criticize the Nazi regime. He was a bishop in my hometown Münster near the Dutch border. In his sermons he criticized that the Nazis were killing innocent disabled people. The program was named T4. The Nazis let him live because he was too popular among the people. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen

Many other priests and bishops were imprisoned by the Gestapo  (the secret state police) in concentration camps and died. In St. Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin many of those are mentioned on memorial plagues. While it may be futile to resist, those who have the courage to do it are not forgotten. 

It can also help to document the things that are unfolding, the violations of human rights, the corruption, and the injustice. In Dresden there was a Jewish professor Victor Klemperer who covered the actions of the Nazi regime in his diaries and journals. He was an important witness of all the injustice that happened. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: glen ☣ <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/12/17 02:07 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

But the question is what actions are guided by remote diagnosis?  I admit that I hope high visibility shaming like that from Streep, when added to the rest of the stress he will be / has been under, will make him go away.  But it's not likely for the same reasons Steve cites that blame and stigma won't really work on him.

I suppose if we could really confirm that he's a particular type of narcissist, then we could build models of what he may or may not do and choose actions based on their expected efficacy.  But because, almost by definition, everyone who willingly runs for President is a narcissist of some sort or other and to differing extent, that diagnosis isn't helpful.

Listening to the confirmation hearings is more helpful, I think.  Take note of all the (many) issues where Trump and his appointees express diametrically opposite positions.  Focus on those fissures.  At best, his administration will shatter.  At worst, the more distance you can put between the incompetent Cheeto and the competent people surrounding him, the more likely we'll end up with a Bush2 or a late-stage-Reagan ... maybe not good, but not catastrophic.

On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best.
> Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.
> Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...


--
☣ glen

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[Owen Densmore]

From the first-mile list comes an interesting innovation effort proposed by Rep. Ben Ray Lujan, D-NM. 

For those of us in NM, it should be indicative of Trump's ability to work with others, i.e. just how bad is his narcissistic personality disorder.

   -- Owen

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Richard Lowenberg <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 9:14 AM
Subject: [1st-mile-nm] Lujan: Libraries + Innovation
To: 1st-mile Nm <[hidden email]>


Lujan: Libraries + Innovation

http://www.nextgov.com/cio-briefing/2017/01/lawmaker-public-libraries-can-boost-american-innovation/134518/

President-elect Donald Trump's technology agenda is largely opaque, but at least one member of Congress has a message for his administration: ideas for cutting-edge technology often comes from the grassroots.

“Innovation may have a national or even global impact but like politics, the process of innovation is inherently local,” Rep. Ben Ray Lujan, D-N.M., said during an Information Technology and Innovation Foundation event on Capitol Hill on Wednesday. The government needs to think of creative ways to “provide resources to the innovators ... across the country," he added.

Lujan advocated for establishing maker-spaces in public libraries, potentially outfitting them with small-scale manufacturing equipment such as 3-D printers, that are accessible to businesses, researchers and the nearby community. Because public libraries already exist across America, "including the rural parts, where we still don’t have bandwidth capacity," they could become hubs for technological development outside Silicon Valley, he said.

Lujan, who co-founded the House Technology Transfer Caucus, singled out this and a few other innovation-themed recommendations for Trump's administration mentioned in a report from the ITIF and the Brookings Institution.

He also advocated for creating an Energy Department-based nonprofit that could dole out funds to transition technology out of federal research labs and into the marketplace. Lujan said he's working on legislation that would encourage Energy to promote partnerships with local economic development groups including maker-spaces.

Other specific recommendations mentioned in the report include encouraging student entrepreneurship and increasing research and development tax credit generosity.


---------------------------------------------------------------
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1st-Mile Institute     <a href="tel:[phone]" value="[phone]" target="_blank" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">505-603-5200
Box 8001, Santa Fe, NM 87504,
[hidden email]     www.1st-mile.org
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[Grant Holland]

Eric,

It looks to me like you are missing what people like myself and Jochen are very afraid of - the extreme marginalization of certain classes of people versus other classes of people. And when I say "extreme", I mean extreme.

I grew up in the American South in the 1950s where lynchings of a certain class of people still occurred. That culture strictly forbade the pursuit of social and economic opportunity for that class, at the threat of beatings and death. And it was justified via an appeal to Christianity! For example, my mother (I'm a white guy) took over my Sunday school class in order to teach us (11 year old kids) that racism is Biblically justified. (She failed of course in her attempt at demonstrating that.)

So I know by experience that the danger of that kind of marginalization is real. (The propensity for a return to that world is alive and kicking even today in the deep South.) It is palpable and I recognize it in today's cultural and political manifestations.

I know that many of my friends who voted for Trump either think that I am simply a sore Hillary lover (I'm not really a fan of hers), or that I'm senselessly paranoid. But I think my fears are real and even probable. I'm way beyond mere disagreement. (That's where I was in 2000 when W won.)

And I do not think that Jochen's fears are unjustified. Listen to him. You don't have to agree, but listen. He comes from a place that is fresh with the experience, and the consequences, of the real life manifestations of these phenomena. It happened, and Jochen knows what the tracks of that animal look like.

Thanks for listening to me!
Grant

On 1/12/17 6:07 AM, Eric Charles wrote:

The comparison of Meryl Streep to Klemperer or von Galen seems more baffling to me than the original conversation. As some on social media have been pointing out, she stood in a room full of like minded people, and spoke their collective mind, with no risk to her career or her person. She didn't say anything not being chanted from the rooftops by hundreds of thousands of other people, and said publically, by prominent celebrities and members of the press every day.

Are we really worried Meryl will be disappeared in the coming weeks, and gassed? Are we worried she will be hit with false charges, arrested without trial, and have her properties become forfeit to the state? Are we even worried she might be blacklisted and never act again? And even if she did, are we worried she won't be able to get by in this world and support her family with the $75 million she already has? Those are honest questions.

Maybe I'm very confused about what "courageous" means. I would consider the average BLM marcher, or women's march participant, more courageous. They could be attacked by police or counter protesters, they could be arrested, they could be fired from their jobs, they could become ostracized by their communities, etc. Heck, Jill Stein got herself arrested at Standing Rock and hardly anyone seemed to notice. I'm not saying Meryl didn't give a good speech, or that it was unimportant, but I honestly wonder what risk we really think she faces as a result of that speech, which leads us to dub her act so courageous, and to compare it to the actions of the other individuals mentioned.

 

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Meryl Streep reminds me of Clemens August Graf von Galen, who was one of the few bishops that had the courage to criticize the Nazi regime. He was a bishop in my hometown Münster near the Dutch border. In his sermons he criticized that the Nazis were killing innocent disabled people. The program was named T4. The Nazis let him live because he was too popular among the people. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen

Many other priests and bishops were imprisoned by the Gestapo  (the secret state police) in concentration camps and died. In St. Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin many of those are mentioned on memorial plagues. While it may be futile to resist, those who have the courage to do it are not forgotten. 

It can also help to document the things that are unfolding, the violations of human rights, the corruption, and the injustice. In Dresden there was a Jewish professor Victor Klemperer who covered the actions of the Nazi regime in his diaries and journals. He was an important witness of all the injustice that happened. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: glen ☣ <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/12/17 02:07 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

But the question is what actions are guided by remote diagnosis?  I admit that I hope high visibility shaming like that from Streep, when added to the rest of the stress he will be / has been under, will make him go away.  But it's not likely for the same reasons Steve cites that blame and stigma won't really work on him.

I suppose if we could really confirm that he's a particular type of narcissist, then we could build models of what he may or may not do and choose actions based on their expected efficacy.  But because, almost by definition, everyone who willingly runs for President is a narcissist of some sort or other and to differing extent, that diagnosis isn't helpful.

Listening to the confirmation hearings is more helpful, I think.  Take note of all the (many) issues where Trump and his appointees express diametrically opposite positions.  Focus on those fissures.  At best, his administration will shatter.  At worst, the more distance you can put between the incompetent Cheeto and the competent people surrounding him, the more likely we'll end up with a Bush2 or a late-stage-Reagan ... maybe not good, but not catastrophic.

On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best.
> Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.
> Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...


--
☣ glen

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Well, sorry to be negative, but salaries for librarians in Santa Fe are about half what they are cities of equivalent size in states like Oregon or California.  That shows about how seriously New Mexico takes libraries.   There is barely any money for digital content, never mind spaces to create the kind of stable work environments that would be needed for, say, young software developers (e.g. of limited means from, say, Pojoaque or Espanola) to develop experience.   SFPL terminals turn over every hour.   And a lot of their patrons are homeless people that just need some physical shelter from the cold.  SFPL at the main branch does have an optical drop now, but I believe it isn’t in use yet because they can’t afford to finish the installation.  I agree libraries could serve this role, but it would require leadership at the library level and substantial broad investments, not just a few expensive toys like 3-D printers.   There also need to be trained people available to help patrons use machines like that, and individuals responsible for fixing the machines, or calling in the vendors when the machines break, and so on.

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 9:42 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

 

From the first-mile list comes an interesting innovation effort proposed by Rep. Ben Ray Lujan, D-NM. 

 

For those of us in NM, it should be indicative of Trump's ability to work with others, i.e. just how bad is his narcissistic personality disorder.

 

   -- Owen

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Richard Lowenberg <[hidden email]>
Date: Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 9:14 AM
Subject: [1st-mile-nm] Lujan: Libraries + Innovation
To: 1st-mile Nm <[hidden email]>


Lujan: Libraries + Innovation

http://www.nextgov.com/cio-briefing/2017/01/lawmaker-public-libraries-can-boost-american-innovation/134518/

President-elect Donald Trump's technology agenda is largely opaque, but at least one member of Congress has a message for his administration: ideas for cutting-edge technology often comes from the grassroots.

“Innovation may have a national or even global impact but like politics, the process of innovation is inherently local,” Rep. Ben Ray Lujan, D-N.M., said during an Information Technology and Innovation Foundation event on Capitol Hill on Wednesday. The government needs to think of creative ways to “provide resources to the innovators ... across the country," he added.

Lujan advocated for establishing maker-spaces in public libraries, potentially outfitting them with small-scale manufacturing equipment such as 3-D printers, that are accessible to businesses, researchers and the nearby community. Because public libraries already exist across America, "including the rural parts, where we still don’t have bandwidth capacity," they could become hubs for technological development outside Silicon Valley, he said.

Lujan, who co-founded the House Technology Transfer Caucus, singled out this and a few other innovation-themed recommendations for Trump's administration mentioned in a report from the ITIF and the Brookings Institution.

He also advocated for creating an Energy Department-based nonprofit that could dole out funds to transition technology out of federal research labs and into the marketplace. Lujan said he's working on legislation that would encourage Energy to promote partnerships with local economic development groups including maker-spaces.

Other specific recommendations mentioned in the report include encouraging student entrepreneurship and increasing research and development tax credit generosity.


---------------------------------------------------------------
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1st-Mile Institute     <a href="tel:[phone]" target="_blank">505-603-5200
Box 8001, Santa Fe, NM 87504,
[hidden email]     www.1st-mile.org
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[Nick Thompson]

Grant,

 

This is a tremendous letter. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Grant Holland
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 9:58 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>; ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

 

Eric,

It looks to me like you are missing what people like myself and Jochen are very afraid of - the extreme marginalization of certain classes of people versus other classes of people. And when I say "extreme", I mean extreme.

I grew up in the American South in the 1950s where lynchings of a certain class of people still occurred. That culture strictly forbade the pursuit of social and economic opportunity for that class, at the threat of beatings and death. And it was justified via an appeal to Christianity! For example, my mother (I'm a white guy) took over my Sunday school class in order to teach us (11 year old kids) that racism is Biblically justified. (She failed of course in her attempt at demonstrating that.)

So I know by experience that the danger of that kind of marginalization is real. (The propensity for a return to that world is alive and kicking even today in the deep South.) It is palpable and I recognize it in today's cultural and political manifestations.

I know that many of my friends who voted for Trump either think that I am simply a sore Hillary lover (I'm not really a fan of hers), or that I'm senselessly paranoid. But I think my fears are real and even probable. I'm way beyond mere disagreement. (That's where I was in 2000 when W won.)

And I do not think that Jochen's fears are unjustified. Listen to him. You don't have to agree, but listen. He comes from a place that is fresh with the experience, and the consequences, of the real life manifestations of these phenomena. It happened, and Jochen knows what the tracks of that animal look like.

Thanks for listening to me!
Grant

On 1/12/17 6:07 AM, Eric Charles wrote:

The comparison of Meryl Streep to Klemperer or von Galen seems more baffling to me than the original conversation. As some on social media have been pointing out, she stood in a room full of like minded people, and spoke their collective mind, with no risk to her career or her person. She didn't say anything not being chanted from the rooftops by hundreds of thousands of other people, and said publically, by prominent celebrities and members of the press every day.

 

Are we really worried Meryl will be disappeared in the coming weeks, and gassed? Are we worried she will be hit with false charges, arrested without trial, and have her properties become forfeit to the state? Are we even worried she might be blacklisted and never act again? And even if she did, are we worried she won't be able to get by in this world and support her family with the $75 million she already has? Those are honest questions.

 

Maybe I'm very confused about what "courageous" means. I would consider the average BLM marcher, or women's march participant, more courageous. They could be attacked by police or counter protesters, they could be arrested, they could be fired from their jobs, they could become ostracized by their communities, etc. Heck, Jill Stein got herself arrested at Standing Rock and hardly anyone seemed to notice. I'm not saying Meryl didn't give a good speech, or that it was unimportant, but I honestly wonder what risk we really think she faces as a result of that speech, which leads us to dub her act so courageous, and to compare it to the actions of the other individuals mentioned.

 

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician

U.S. Marine Corps

 

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Meryl Streep reminds me of Clemens August Graf von Galen, who was one of the few bishops that had the courage to criticize the Nazi regime. He was a bishop in my hometown Münster near the Dutch border. In his sermons he criticized that the Nazis were killing innocent disabled people. The program was named T4. The Nazis let him live because he was too popular among the people. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen

 

Many other priests and bishops were imprisoned by the Gestapo  (the secret state police) in concentration camps and died. In St. Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin many of those are mentioned on memorial plagues. While it may be futile to resist, those who have the courage to do it are not forgotten. 

 

It can also help to document the things that are unfolding, the violations of human rights, the corruption, and the injustice. In Dresden there was a Jewish professor Victor Klemperer who covered the actions of the Nazi regime in his diaries and journals. He was an important witness of all the injustice that happened. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer

 

-J.

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: glen ☣ <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/12/17 02:07 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

 

But the question is what actions are guided by remote diagnosis?  I admit that I hope high visibility shaming like that from Streep, when added to the rest of the stress he will be / has been under, will make him go away.  But it's not likely for the same reasons Steve cites that blame and stigma won't really work on him.

I suppose if we could really confirm that he's a particular type of narcissist, then we could build models of what he may or may not do and choose actions based on their expected efficacy.  But because, almost by definition, everyone who willingly runs for President is a narcissist of some sort or other and to differing extent, that diagnosis isn't helpful.

Listening to the confirmation hearings is more helpful, I think.  Take note of all the (many) issues where Trump and his appointees express diametrically opposite positions.  Focus on those fissures.  At best, his administration will shatter.  At worst, the more distance you can put between the incompetent Cheeto and the competent people surrounding him, the more likely we'll end up with a Bush2 or a late-stage-Reagan ... maybe not good, but not catastrophic.

On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best.
> Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.
> Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...


--
☣ glen

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[Gillian Densmore]

I asked at wed tech and I shall ask here then I might sugest to table it for a bit before everyone gets insomnia and heartburn:

IF Drumpf is shown to have a neroisis and or other issues that make it a really bad idea for him to be president?

What next? 

Is he able or willing to own having a Neuroisis?

A

s I tossed out durring wedthech

Ok so razzing asside for a moment:

What next? are their guidlines or rules for what to do?

Also

is it really better for Pence (for example) to be president? He has more practical experience. He also has his own bagage and issues.

If it becomes reasonably clear Drumpf simply isn't able to work as president because of any number of medical problems what next?

Are their guidleines or rules for what to do? I personally simply don't know.

I'd guess that pence and or the sennate and congress somehow take over.  Marcus(SP) and Josh thought Pence might (temporarily) take over (sort of) mostly as a place holder, and their'd be an Emergence Special election.

(See also Gov. Grey Davis for example)

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Grant,

 

This is a tremendous letter. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Grant Holland
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 9:58 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>; ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

 

Eric,

It looks to me like you are missing what people like myself and Jochen are very afraid of - the extreme marginalization of certain classes of people versus other classes of people. And when I say "extreme", I mean extreme.

I grew up in the American South in the 1950s where lynchings of a certain class of people still occurred. That culture strictly forbade the pursuit of social and economic opportunity for that class, at the threat of beatings and death. And it was justified via an appeal to Christianity! For example, my mother (I'm a white guy) took over my Sunday school class in order to teach us (11 year old kids) that racism is Biblically justified. (She failed of course in her attempt at demonstrating that.)

So I know by experience that the danger of that kind of marginalization is real. (The propensity for a return to that world is alive and kicking even today in the deep South.) It is palpable and I recognize it in today's cultural and political manifestations.

I know that many of my friends who voted for Trump either think that I am simply a sore Hillary lover (I'm not really a fan of hers), or that I'm senselessly paranoid. But I think my fears are real and even probable. I'm way beyond mere disagreement. (That's where I was in 2000 when W won.)

And I do not think that Jochen's fears are unjustified. Listen to him. You don't have to agree, but listen. He comes from a place that is fresh with the experience, and the consequences, of the real life manifestations of these phenomena. It happened, and Jochen knows what the tracks of that animal look like.

Thanks for listening to me!
Grant

On 1/12/17 6:07 AM, Eric Charles wrote:

The comparison of Meryl Streep to Klemperer or von Galen seems more baffling to me than the original conversation. As some on social media have been pointing out, she stood in a room full of like minded people, and spoke their collective mind, with no risk to her career or her person. She didn't say anything not being chanted from the rooftops by hundreds of thousands of other people, and said publically, by prominent celebrities and members of the press every day.

 

Are we really worried Meryl will be disappeared in the coming weeks, and gassed? Are we worried she will be hit with false charges, arrested without trial, and have her properties become forfeit to the state? Are we even worried she might be blacklisted and never act again? And even if she did, are we worried she won't be able to get by in this world and support her family with the $75 million she already has? Those are honest questions.

 

Maybe I'm very confused about what "courageous" means. I would consider the average BLM marcher, or women's march participant, more courageous. They could be attacked by police or counter protesters, they could be arrested, they could be fired from their jobs, they could become ostracized by their communities, etc. Heck, Jill Stein got herself arrested at Standing Rock and hardly anyone seemed to notice. I'm not saying Meryl didn't give a good speech, or that it was unimportant, but I honestly wonder what risk we really think she faces as a result of that speech, which leads us to dub her act so courageous, and to compare it to the actions of the other individuals mentioned.

 

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician

U.S. Marine Corps

 

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Meryl Streep reminds me of Clemens August Graf von Galen, who was one of the few bishops that had the courage to criticize the Nazi regime. He was a bishop in my hometown Münster near the Dutch border. In his sermons he criticized that the Nazis were killing innocent disabled people. The program was named T4. The Nazis let him live because he was too popular among the people. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen

 

Many other priests and bishops were imprisoned by the Gestapo  (the secret state police) in concentration camps and died. In St. Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin many of those are mentioned on memorial plagues. While it may be futile to resist, those who have the courage to do it are not forgotten. 

 

It can also help to document the things that are unfolding, the violations of human rights, the corruption, and the injustice. In Dresden there was a Jewish professor Victor Klemperer who covered the actions of the Nazi regime in his diaries and journals. He was an important witness of all the injustice that happened. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer

 

-J.

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: glen ☣ <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/12/17 02:07 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

 

But the question is what actions are guided by remote diagnosis?  I admit that I hope high visibility shaming like that from Streep, when added to the rest of the stress he will be / has been under, will make him go away.  But it's not likely for the same reasons Steve cites that blame and stigma won't really work on him.

I suppose if we could really confirm that he's a particular type of narcissist, then we could build models of what he may or may not do and choose actions based on their expected efficacy.  But because, almost by definition, everyone who willingly runs for President is a narcissist of some sort or other and to differing extent, that diagnosis isn't helpful.

Listening to the confirmation hearings is more helpful, I think.  Take note of all the (many) issues where Trump and his appointees express diametrically opposite positions.  Focus on those fissures.  At best, his administration will shatter.  At worst, the more distance you can put between the incompetent Cheeto and the competent people surrounding him, the more likely we'll end up with a Bush2 or a late-stage-Reagan ... maybe not good, but not catastrophic.

On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best.
> Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.
> Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...


--
☣ glen

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

“If it becomes reasonably clear Drumpf simply isn't able to work as president because of any number of medical problems what next? Are their guidleines or rules for what to do?”

 

Section 4 of the 25^th amendment:

 

“Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

 

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.”

 

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[gepr]

So, can we infer that those who focus on a diagnosis believe that the diagnosis might convince Pence and a majority of appropriate others to declare Trump unable?  As much as I disagree with Pence's apparent views, it would be fantastic if he were playing such a game.  Such sneaky planning might even restore my faith in government.

On 01/12/2017 09:47 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> “If it becomes reasonably clear Drumpf simply isn't able to work as president because of any number of medical problems what next? Are their guidleines or rules for what to do?”
>
> Section 4 of the 25th amendment:
>
> “Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
>
> Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.”


--
☣ glen
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[Marcus G. Daniels]

We can wait until there is more evidence, but it seems to me a distinction between bad and worse.  
At some point, if there is worse evidence in hand, people (not just Congress) will start having to think and communicate in very different ways.   But to completely dismiss the worse possibility seems foolish, even if (hopefully) Eric is right.    

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 11:05 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?


So, can we infer that those who focus on a diagnosis believe that the diagnosis might convince Pence and a majority of appropriate others to declare Trump unable?  As much as I disagree with Pence's apparent views, it would be fantastic if he were playing such a game.  Such sneaky planning might even restore my faith in government.

On 01/12/2017 09:47 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> “If it becomes reasonably clear Drumpf simply isn't able to work as president because of any number of medical problems what next? Are their guidleines or rules for what to do?”
>
> Section 4 of the 25th amendment:
>
> “Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
>
> Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.”


--
☣ glen
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[Eric Charles-2]

Grant, et al.,

I fully understand concern for the effect that electing Trump might have on the attitudes of the larger population. I have relatives who are, in fact, moving from rural areas, where discrimination was already noticeable, to Canada, in anticipation of increased discrimination (inspired by what, to them, Trump's victory represents). However, I see that as conceptually distinct from concern over what Trump himself might do. They are moving due to concerns about their local neighbors, not about what might happen in the White House or in Trump Towers, and not because they are afraid of Trump being kept in proximity to the football.

As for the VP and the cabinet deciding to try to ouster him, that seems unlikely, unless he becomes considerably more erratic. The "out" provided by the 25th amendment is clearly intended for someone who becomes unstable in office. The law requires people the president put in place to declare that they no longer have faith in him, which implies a fundamental change in the character of the person whose agenda they agreed to serve.

The amendment is not intended to remove a narcissistic person, who was such when elected, and is still such in office. If it becomes clear that he is fundamentally unfit for office, they will turn against him, but "unfit" by their standards will mean that he consistently disrupts the ability of the party to get things done, not merely that he gives erratic press conferences and tweets in the middle of the night. As far as general decorum, recall that "whip it out like LBJ" is a perfectly valid expression. As far as mental incompetence, recall that Regan was pretty far gone by the end of his time, and the people around him kept things running fairly well. So long as the party can keep things running fairly well despite Trump's flaws, there won't be a sufficient number of people willing to sign.

P.S. Out of curiosity, does anyone else know someone actually moving as a result of the election?

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Grant Holland <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eric,

It looks to me like you are missing what people like myself and Jochen are very afraid of - the extreme marginalization of certain classes of people versus other classes of people. And when I say "extreme", I mean extreme.

I grew up in the American South in the 1950s where lynchings of a certain class of people still occurred. That culture strictly forbade the pursuit of social and economic opportunity for that class, at the threat of beatings and death. And it was justified via an appeal to Christianity! For example, my mother (I'm a white guy) took over my Sunday school class in order to teach us (11 year old kids) that racism is Biblically justified. (She failed of course in her attempt at demonstrating that.)

So I know by experience that the danger of that kind of marginalization is real. (The propensity for a return to that world is alive and kicking even today in the deep South.) It is palpable and I recognize it in today's cultural and political manifestations.

I know that many of my friends who voted for Trump either think that I am simply a sore Hillary lover (I'm not really a fan of hers), or that I'm senselessly paranoid. But I think my fears are real and even probable. I'm way beyond mere disagreement. (That's where I was in 2000 when W won.)

And I do not think that Jochen's fears are unjustified. Listen to him. You don't have to agree, but listen. He comes from a place that is fresh with the experience, and the consequences, of the real life manifestations of these phenomena. It happened, and Jochen knows what the tracks of that animal look like.

Thanks for listening to me!
Grant

On 1/12/17 6:07 AM, Eric Charles wrote:

The comparison of Meryl Streep to Klemperer or von Galen seems more baffling to me than the original conversation. As some on social media have been pointing out, she stood in a room full of like minded people, and spoke their collective mind, with no risk to her career or her person. She didn't say anything not being chanted from the rooftops by hundreds of thousands of other people, and said publically, by prominent celebrities and members of the press every day.

Are we really worried Meryl will be disappeared in the coming weeks, and gassed? Are we worried she will be hit with false charges, arrested without trial, and have her properties become forfeit to the state? Are we even worried she might be blacklisted and never act again? And even if she did, are we worried she won't be able to get by in this world and support her family with the $75 million she already has? Those are honest questions.

Maybe I'm very confused about what "courageous" means. I would consider the average BLM marcher, or women's march participant, more courageous. They could be attacked by police or counter protesters, they could be arrested, they could be fired from their jobs, they could become ostracized by their communities, etc. Heck, Jill Stein got herself arrested at Standing Rock and hardly anyone seemed to notice. I'm not saying Meryl didn't give a good speech, or that it was unimportant, but I honestly wonder what risk we really think she faces as a result of that speech, which leads us to dub her act so courageous, and to compare it to the actions of the other individuals mentioned.

 

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Meryl Streep reminds me of Clemens August Graf von Galen, who was one of the few bishops that had the courage to criticize the Nazi regime. He was a bishop in my hometown Münster near the Dutch border. In his sermons he criticized that the Nazis were killing innocent disabled people. The program was named T4. The Nazis let him live because he was too popular among the people. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen

Many other priests and bishops were imprisoned by the Gestapo  (the secret state police) in concentration camps and died. In St. Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin many of those are mentioned on memorial plagues. While it may be futile to resist, those who have the courage to do it are not forgotten. 

It can also help to document the things that are unfolding, the violations of human rights, the corruption, and the injustice. In Dresden there was a Jewish professor Victor Klemperer who covered the actions of the Nazi regime in his diaries and journals. He was an important witness of all the injustice that happened. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: glen ☣ <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/12/17 02:07 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

But the question is what actions are guided by remote diagnosis?  I admit that I hope high visibility shaming like that from Streep, when added to the rest of the stress he will be / has been under, will make him go away.  But it's not likely for the same reasons Steve cites that blame and stigma won't really work on him.

I suppose if we could really confirm that he's a particular type of narcissist, then we could build models of what he may or may not do and choose actions based on their expected efficacy.  But because, almost by definition, everyone who willingly runs for President is a narcissist of some sort or other and to differing extent, that diagnosis isn't helpful.

Listening to the confirmation hearings is more helpful, I think.  Take note of all the (many) issues where Trump and his appointees express diametrically opposite positions.  Focus on those fissures.  At best, his administration will shatter.  At worst, the more distance you can put between the incompetent Cheeto and the competent people surrounding him, the more likely we'll end up with a Bush2 or a late-stage-Reagan ... maybe not good, but not catastrophic.

On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best.
> Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.
> Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...


--
☣ glen

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[Gary Schiltz-4]

Not because of this election, but GW Bush's second coronation in 2004 was a major factor for my wife Karen and I to start actively looking outside the USA for somewhere for early retirement. After exploring Costa Rica, Belize, Panama, and Ecuador, we finally cut ourselves loose in 2008 and sold everything and moved here to Ecuador, just outside Quito. It is ironic that we left just before Obama was elected, as I think he is one of the best presidents the country has ever had. At least we were spared most of the political mudslinging that ensued for the next eight years. The last year has eliminated any lingering doubts we may have had about the wisdom of the move.

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

Grant, et al.,

I fully understand concern for the effect that electing Trump might have on the attitudes of the larger population. I have relatives who are, in fact, moving from rural areas, where discrimination was already noticeable, to Canada, in anticipation of increased discrimination (inspired by what, to them, Trump's victory represents). However, I see that as conceptually distinct from concern over what Trump himself might do. They are moving due to concerns about their local neighbors, not about what might happen in the White House or in Trump Towers, and not because they are afraid of Trump being kept in proximity to the football.

As for the VP and the cabinet deciding to try to ouster him, that seems unlikely, unless he becomes considerably more erratic. The "out" provided by the 25th amendment is clearly intended for someone who becomes unstable in office. The law requires people the president put in place to declare that they no longer have faith in him, which implies a fundamental change in the character of the person whose agenda they agreed to serve.

The amendment is not intended to remove a narcissistic person, who was such when elected, and is still such in office. If it becomes clear that he is fundamentally unfit for office, they will turn against him, but "unfit" by their standards will mean that he consistently disrupts the ability of the party to get things done, not merely that he gives erratic press conferences and tweets in the middle of the night. As far as general decorum, recall that "whip it out like LBJ" is a perfectly valid expression. As far as mental incompetence, recall that Regan was pretty far gone by the end of his time, and the people around him kept things running fairly well. So long as the party can keep things running fairly well despite Trump's flaws, there won't be a sufficient number of people willing to sign.

P.S. Out of curiosity, does anyone else know someone actually moving as a result of the election?

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Grant Holland <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eric,

It looks to me like you are missing what people like myself and Jochen are very afraid of - the extreme marginalization of certain classes of people versus other classes of people. And when I say "extreme", I mean extreme.

I grew up in the American South in the 1950s where lynchings of a certain class of people still occurred. That culture strictly forbade the pursuit of social and economic opportunity for that class, at the threat of beatings and death. And it was justified via an appeal to Christianity! For example, my mother (I'm a white guy) took over my Sunday school class in order to teach us (11 year old kids) that racism is Biblically justified. (She failed of course in her attempt at demonstrating that.)

So I know by experience that the danger of that kind of marginalization is real. (The propensity for a return to that world is alive and kicking even today in the deep South.) It is palpable and I recognize it in today's cultural and political manifestations.

I know that many of my friends who voted for Trump either think that I am simply a sore Hillary lover (I'm not really a fan of hers), or that I'm senselessly paranoid. But I think my fears are real and even probable. I'm way beyond mere disagreement. (That's where I was in 2000 when W won.)

And I do not think that Jochen's fears are unjustified. Listen to him. You don't have to agree, but listen. He comes from a place that is fresh with the experience, and the consequences, of the real life manifestations of these phenomena. It happened, and Jochen knows what the tracks of that animal look like.

Thanks for listening to me!
Grant

On 1/12/17 6:07 AM, Eric Charles wrote:

The comparison of Meryl Streep to Klemperer or von Galen seems more baffling to me than the original conversation. As some on social media have been pointing out, she stood in a room full of like minded people, and spoke their collective mind, with no risk to her career or her person. She didn't say anything not being chanted from the rooftops by hundreds of thousands of other people, and said publically, by prominent celebrities and members of the press every day.

Are we really worried Meryl will be disappeared in the coming weeks, and gassed? Are we worried she will be hit with false charges, arrested without trial, and have her properties become forfeit to the state? Are we even worried she might be blacklisted and never act again? And even if she did, are we worried she won't be able to get by in this world and support her family with the $75 million she already has? Those are honest questions.

Maybe I'm very confused about what "courageous" means. I would consider the average BLM marcher, or women's march participant, more courageous. They could be attacked by police or counter protesters, they could be arrested, they could be fired from their jobs, they could become ostracized by their communities, etc. Heck, Jill Stein got herself arrested at Standing Rock and hardly anyone seemed to notice. I'm not saying Meryl didn't give a good speech, or that it was unimportant, but I honestly wonder what risk we really think she faces as a result of that speech, which leads us to dub her act so courageous, and to compare it to the actions of the other individuals mentioned.

 

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Meryl Streep reminds me of Clemens August Graf von Galen, who was one of the few bishops that had the courage to criticize the Nazi regime. He was a bishop in my hometown Münster near the Dutch border. In his sermons he criticized that the Nazis were killing innocent disabled people. The program was named T4. The Nazis let him live because he was too popular among the people. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen

Many other priests and bishops were imprisoned by the Gestapo  (the secret state police) in concentration camps and died. In St. Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin many of those are mentioned on memorial plagues. While it may be futile to resist, those who have the courage to do it are not forgotten. 

It can also help to document the things that are unfolding, the violations of human rights, the corruption, and the injustice. In Dresden there was a Jewish professor Victor Klemperer who covered the actions of the Nazi regime in his diaries and journals. He was an important witness of all the injustice that happened. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: glen ☣ <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/12/17 02:07 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

But the question is what actions are guided by remote diagnosis?  I admit that I hope high visibility shaming like that from Streep, when added to the rest of the stress he will be / has been under, will make him go away.  But it's not likely for the same reasons Steve cites that blame and stigma won't really work on him.

I suppose if we could really confirm that he's a particular type of narcissist, then we could build models of what he may or may not do and choose actions based on their expected efficacy.  But because, almost by definition, everyone who willingly runs for President is a narcissist of some sort or other and to differing extent, that diagnosis isn't helpful.

Listening to the confirmation hearings is more helpful, I think.  Take note of all the (many) issues where Trump and his appointees express diametrically opposite positions.  Focus on those fissures.  At best, his administration will shatter.  At worst, the more distance you can put between the incompetent Cheeto and the competent people surrounding him, the more likely we'll end up with a Bush2 or a late-stage-Reagan ... maybe not good, but not catastrophic.

On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best.
> Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.
> Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...


--
☣ glen

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[John Dobson]

The 25th Amendment has two provisions (Articles 3 and 4) that provide for removal of a sitting president. 

 In Article 3, if the president himself decides he can't carry on, he can let folks know.  Here's the language: Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.

So how likely is it that President Trump will do that?  Not likely.  4 allows for others to determine he is unfit.  Here's the language:  Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Unfortunately, this is reversible.  The president can, Lazarus-like, be declared ok again and be reinstated.

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

I asked at wed tech and I shall ask here then I might sugest to table it for a bit before everyone gets insomnia and heartburn:

IF Drumpf is shown to have a neroisis and or other issues that make it a really bad idea for him to be president?

What next? 

Is he able or willing to own having a Neuroisis?

A

s I tossed out durring wedthech

Ok so razzing asside for a moment:

What next? are their guidlines or rules for what to do?

Also

is it really better for Pence (for example) to be president? He has more practical experience. He also has his own bagage and issues.

If it becomes reasonably clear Drumpf simply isn't able to work as president because of any number of medical problems what next?

Are their guidleines or rules for what to do? I personally simply don't know.

I'd guess that pence and or the sennate and congress somehow take over.  Marcus(SP) and Josh thought Pence might (temporarily) take over (sort of) mostly as a place holder, and their'd be an Emergence Special election.

(See also Gov. Grey Davis for example)

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Grant,

 

This is a tremendous letter. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Grant Holland
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 9:58 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>; ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

 

Eric,

It looks to me like you are missing what people like myself and Jochen are very afraid of - the extreme marginalization of certain classes of people versus other classes of people. And when I say "extreme", I mean extreme.

I grew up in the American South in the 1950s where lynchings of a certain class of people still occurred. That culture strictly forbade the pursuit of social and economic opportunity for that class, at the threat of beatings and death. And it was justified via an appeal to Christianity! For example, my mother (I'm a white guy) took over my Sunday school class in order to teach us (11 year old kids) that racism is Biblically justified. (She failed of course in her attempt at demonstrating that.)

So I know by experience that the danger of that kind of marginalization is real. (The propensity for a return to that world is alive and kicking even today in the deep South.) It is palpable and I recognize it in today's cultural and political manifestations.

I know that many of my friends who voted for Trump either think that I am simply a sore Hillary lover (I'm not really a fan of hers), or that I'm senselessly paranoid. But I think my fears are real and even probable. I'm way beyond mere disagreement. (That's where I was in 2000 when W won.)

And I do not think that Jochen's fears are unjustified. Listen to him. You don't have to agree, but listen. He comes from a place that is fresh with the experience, and the consequences, of the real life manifestations of these phenomena. It happened, and Jochen knows what the tracks of that animal look like.

Thanks for listening to me!
Grant

On 1/12/17 6:07 AM, Eric Charles wrote:

The comparison of Meryl Streep to Klemperer or von Galen seems more baffling to me than the original conversation. As some on social media have been pointing out, she stood in a room full of like minded people, and spoke their collective mind, with no risk to her career or her person. She didn't say anything not being chanted from the rooftops by hundreds of thousands of other people, and said publically, by prominent celebrities and members of the press every day.

 

Are we really worried Meryl will be disappeared in the coming weeks, and gassed? Are we worried she will be hit with false charges, arrested without trial, and have her properties become forfeit to the state? Are we even worried she might be blacklisted and never act again? And even if she did, are we worried she won't be able to get by in this world and support her family with the $75 million she already has? Those are honest questions.

 

Maybe I'm very confused about what "courageous" means. I would consider the average BLM marcher, or women's march participant, more courageous. They could be attacked by police or counter protesters, they could be arrested, they could be fired from their jobs, they could become ostracized by their communities, etc. Heck, Jill Stein got herself arrested at Standing Rock and hardly anyone seemed to notice. I'm not saying Meryl didn't give a good speech, or that it was unimportant, but I honestly wonder what risk we really think she faces as a result of that speech, which leads us to dub her act so courageous, and to compare it to the actions of the other individuals mentioned.

 

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician

U.S. Marine Corps

 

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Meryl Streep reminds me of Clemens August Graf von Galen, who was one of the few bishops that had the courage to criticize the Nazi regime. He was a bishop in my hometown Münster near the Dutch border. In his sermons he criticized that the Nazis were killing innocent disabled people. The program was named T4. The Nazis let him live because he was too popular among the people. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen

 

Many other priests and bishops were imprisoned by the Gestapo  (the secret state police) in concentration camps and died. In St. Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin many of those are mentioned on memorial plagues. While it may be futile to resist, those who have the courage to do it are not forgotten. 

 

It can also help to document the things that are unfolding, the violations of human rights, the corruption, and the injustice. In Dresden there was a Jewish professor Victor Klemperer who covered the actions of the Nazi regime in his diaries and journals. He was an important witness of all the injustice that happened. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer

 

-J.

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: glen ☣ <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/12/17 02:07 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

 

But the question is what actions are guided by remote diagnosis?  I admit that I hope high visibility shaming like that from Streep, when added to the rest of the stress he will be / has been under, will make him go away.  But it's not likely for the same reasons Steve cites that blame and stigma won't really work on him.

I suppose if we could really confirm that he's a particular type of narcissist, then we could build models of what he may or may not do and choose actions based on their expected efficacy.  But because, almost by definition, everyone who willingly runs for President is a narcissist of some sort or other and to differing extent, that diagnosis isn't helpful.

Listening to the confirmation hearings is more helpful, I think.  Take note of all the (many) issues where Trump and his appointees express diametrically opposite positions.  Focus on those fissures.  At best, his administration will shatter.  At worst, the more distance you can put between the incompetent Cheeto and the competent people surrounding him, the more likely we'll end up with a Bush2 or a late-stage-Reagan ... maybe not good, but not catastrophic.

On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best.
> Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.
> Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...


--
☣ glen

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[Grant Holland]

Eric,

You make a good point about your concerns being orthogonal to mine.

To my point, though... one of the things that Trump is doing to exacerbate my concern is to nominate folks (e.g. the senator from Alabama to AG) who have vowed to promote further class marginalization, and have demonstrated that such is their propensity and commitment - by, for example, supporting the KKK.

Grant

On 1/12/17 12:12 PM, Eric Charles wrote:

Grant, et al.,

I fully understand concern for the effect that electing Trump might have on the attitudes of the larger population. I have relatives who are, in fact, moving from rural areas, where discrimination was already noticeable, to Canada, in anticipation of increased discrimination (inspired by what, to them, Trump's victory represents). However, I see that as conceptually distinct from concern over what Trump himself might do. They are moving due to concerns about their local neighbors, not about what might happen in the White House or in Trump Towers, and not because they are afraid of Trump being kept in proximity to the football.

As for the VP and the cabinet deciding to try to ouster him, that seems unlikely, unless he becomes considerably more erratic. The "out" provided by the 25th amendment is clearly intended for someone who becomes unstable in office. The law requires people the president put in place to declare that they no longer have faith in him, which implies a fundamental change in the character of the person whose agenda they agreed to serve.

The amendment is not intended to remove a narcissistic person, who was such when elected, and is still such in office. If it becomes clear that he is fundamentally unfit for office, they will turn against him, but "unfit" by their standards will mean that he consistently disrupts the ability of the party to get things done, not merely that he gives erratic press conferences and tweets in the middle of the night. As far as general decorum, recall that "whip it out like LBJ" is a perfectly valid expression. As far as mental incompetence, recall that Regan was pretty far gone by the end of his time, and the people around him kept things running fairly well. So long as the party can keep things running fairly well despite Trump's flaws, there won't be a sufficient number of people willing to sign.

P.S. Out of curiosity, does anyone else know someone actually moving as a result of the election?

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Grant Holland <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eric,

It looks to me like you are missing what people like myself and Jochen are very afraid of - the extreme marginalization of certain classes of people versus other classes of people. And when I say "extreme", I mean extreme.

I grew up in the American South in the 1950s where lynchings of a certain class of people still occurred. That culture strictly forbade the pursuit of social and economic opportunity for that class, at the threat of beatings and death. And it was justified via an appeal to Christianity! For example, my mother (I'm a white guy) took over my Sunday school class in order to teach us (11 year old kids) that racism is Biblically justified. (She failed of course in her attempt at demonstrating that.)

So I know by experience that the danger of that kind of marginalization is real. (The propensity for a return to that world is alive and kicking even today in the deep South.) It is palpable and I recognize it in today's cultural and political manifestations.

I know that many of my friends who voted for Trump either think that I am simply a sore Hillary lover (I'm not really a fan of hers), or that I'm senselessly paranoid. But I think my fears are real and even probable. I'm way beyond mere disagreement. (That's where I was in 2000 when W won.)

And I do not think that Jochen's fears are unjustified. Listen to him. You don't have to agree, but listen. He comes from a place that is fresh with the experience, and the consequences, of the real life manifestations of these phenomena. It happened, and Jochen knows what the tracks of that animal look like.

Thanks for listening to me!
Grant

On 1/12/17 6:07 AM, Eric Charles wrote:

The comparison of Meryl Streep to Klemperer or von Galen seems more baffling to me than the original conversation. As some on social media have been pointing out, she stood in a room full of like minded people, and spoke their collective mind, with no risk to her career or her person. She didn't say anything not being chanted from the rooftops by hundreds of thousands of other people, and said publically, by prominent celebrities and members of the press every day.

Are we really worried Meryl will be disappeared in the coming weeks, and gassed? Are we worried she will be hit with false charges, arrested without trial, and have her properties become forfeit to the state? Are we even worried she might be blacklisted and never act again? And even if she did, are we worried she won't be able to get by in this world and support her family with the $75 million she already has? Those are honest questions.

Maybe I'm very confused about what "courageous" means. I would consider the average BLM marcher, or women's march participant, more courageous. They could be attacked by police or counter protesters, they could be arrested, they could be fired from their jobs, they could become ostracized by their communities, etc. Heck, Jill Stein got herself arrested at Standing Rock and hardly anyone seemed to notice. I'm not saying Meryl didn't give a good speech, or that it was unimportant, but I honestly wonder what risk we really think she faces as a result of that speech, which leads us to dub her act so courageous, and to compare it to the actions of the other individuals mentioned.

 

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Meryl Streep reminds me of Clemens August Graf von Galen, who was one of the few bishops that had the courage to criticize the Nazi regime. He was a bishop in my hometown Münster near the Dutch border. In his sermons he criticized that the Nazis were killing innocent disabled people. The program was named T4. The Nazis let him live because he was too popular among the people. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen

Many other priests and bishops were imprisoned by the Gestapo  (the secret state police) in concentration camps and died. In St. Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin many of those are mentioned on memorial plagues. While it may be futile to resist, those who have the courage to do it are not forgotten. 

It can also help to document the things that are unfolding, the violations of human rights, the corruption, and the injustice. In Dresden there was a Jewish professor Victor Klemperer who covered the actions of the Nazi regime in his diaries and journals. He was an important witness of all the injustice that happened. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: glen ☣ <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/12/17 02:07 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

But the question is what actions are guided by remote diagnosis?  I admit that I hope high visibility shaming like that from Streep, when added to the rest of the stress he will be / has been under, will make him go away.  But it's not likely for the same reasons Steve cites that blame and stigma won't really work on him.

I suppose if we could really confirm that he's a particular type of narcissist, then we could build models of what he may or may not do and choose actions based on their expected efficacy.  But because, almost by definition, everyone who willingly runs for President is a narcissist of some sort or other and to differing extent, that diagnosis isn't helpful.

Listening to the confirmation hearings is more helpful, I think.  Take note of all the (many) issues where Trump and his appointees express diametrically opposite positions.  Focus on those fissures.  At best, his administration will shatter.  At worst, the more distance you can put between the incompetent Cheeto and the competent people surrounding him, the more likely we'll end up with a Bush2 or a late-stage-Reagan ... maybe not good, but not catastrophic.

On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best.
> Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.
> Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...


--
☣ glen

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[Vladimyr Burachynsky]

On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best.
> Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.
> Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...

VIB I missed the rest of Jochen Fromm’s letter but agree whole heartedly.

 

The universe of a narcissist has a radius close to +1 plus the small consensus it controls. The Solipsist has complete mastery of a Universe of radius absolute 1 plus the deluded

cohort of imaginary sycophants. The difference between the two is very small. A totally mad narcissist vacillates between the two positions slaughtering all contradictions real or imagined.

If a madman truly believes in himself … than he can commit any atrocity with a clear conscience. I true believer can completely ignore reality.

 

I was accused of being a pacifist lately when I am anything but that. Sometimes Violence is the only response to madmen and in such a case, hesitation is folly.

I was raised by survivors of The Great Slaughter in Eastern Europe, they taught me to fight and how to kill because they feared it’s return. Not in my life time was I ever called upon…

thank God.

 

When I wanted to play hockey my father asked what are these Anglish games, you should learn to fight and kill.

That is how you survive…

 

I was raised in a world of two realities, one flippant and the other bitterly serious.

 

Jochen sees the same insatiable monster’s path.

We watch in quiet but we are not passive. The Russians know this beast as well as anyone. Finns, Balts, Ukrainians, Poles, Central Europeans we lost an uncountable number.

Then the Americans claimed a total victory in 1945, and got the same slow social disease.

War continued well into the 1950’s in the East.

 

Trump is no more than a bleating goat tethered to a tent peg in the forest. Now that both national parties are discredited more demons are emerging, the Media/Bubble and the National Intelligence community.

I admit to being dumbstruck by Trump’s counter reactions. He might make it to the end of a term but don’t bet on it.

 

Trump and Putin are drawing out the poisons in the system.

Putin might survive in some clever way but Trump is clearly blinded by his own aura or his deodorant.

Trump is performing his role as Bait, very well.

vib

 

I ask that no one ever confuses thinking for passivity, nor mistake me for an apocalyptic hermit.

So calm down a bit and reduce your heart rate before you touch a trigger.

 

Is that a spoof about Americans coming to Canada, tell them to bring a good coat because it is -40 C with windchill.

You are crazy to look for a balmy sanctuary up here. This place is only fit for the crazy Siberians now.

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Grant Holland
Sent: January-12-17 6:40 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

 

Eric,

You make a good point about your concerns being orthogonal to mine.

To my point, though... one of the things that Trump is doing to exacerbate my concern is to nominate folks (e.g. the senator from Alabama to AG) who have vowed to promote further class marginalization, and have demonstrated that such is their propensity and commitment - by, for example, supporting the KKK.

Grant

 

On 1/12/17 12:12 PM, Eric Charles wrote:

Grant, et al.,

I fully understand concern for the effect that electing Trump might have on the attitudes of the larger population. I have relatives who are, in fact, moving from rural areas, where discrimination was already noticeable, to Canada, in anticipation of increased discrimination (inspired by what, to them, Trump's victory represents). However, I see that as conceptually distinct from concern over what Trump himself might do. They are moving due to concerns about their local neighbors, not about what might happen in the White House or in Trump Towers, and not because they are afraid of Trump being kept in proximity to the football.

 

As for the VP and the cabinet deciding to try to ouster him, that seems unlikely, unless he becomes considerably more erratic. The "out" provided by the 25th amendment is clearly intended for someone who becomes unstable in office. The law requires people the president put in place to declare that they no longer have faith in him, which implies a fundamental change in the character of the person whose agenda they agreed to serve.

 

The amendment is not intended to remove a narcissistic person, who was such when elected, and is still such in office. If it becomes clear that he is fundamentally unfit for office, they will turn against him, but "unfit" by their standards will mean that he consistently disrupts the ability of the party to get things done, not merely that he gives erratic press conferences and tweets in the middle of the night. As far as general decorum, recall that "whip it out like LBJ" is a perfectly valid expression. As far as mental incompetence, recall that Regan was pretty far gone by the end of his time, and the people around him kept things running fairly well. So long as the party can keep things running fairly well despite Trump's flaws, there won't be a sufficient number of people willing to sign.

 

P.S. Out of curiosity, does anyone else know someone actually moving as a result of the election?

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician

U.S. Marine Corps

 

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Grant Holland <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eric,

It looks to me like you are missing what people like myself and Jochen are very afraid of - the extreme marginalization of certain classes of people versus other classes of people. And when I say "extreme", I mean extreme.

I grew up in the American South in the 1950s where lynchings of a certain class of people still occurred. That culture strictly forbade the pursuit of social and economic opportunity for that class, at the threat of beatings and death. And it was justified via an appeal to Christianity! For example, my mother (I'm a white guy) took over my Sunday school class in order to teach us (11 year old kids) that racism is Biblically justified. (She failed of course in her attempt at demonstrating that.)

So I know by experience that the danger of that kind of marginalization is real. (The propensity for a return to that world is alive and kicking even today in the deep South.) It is palpable and I recognize it in today's cultural and political manifestations.

I know that many of my friends who voted for Trump either think that I am simply a sore Hillary lover (I'm not really a fan of hers), or that I'm senselessly paranoid. But I think my fears are real and even probable. I'm way beyond mere disagreement. (That's where I was in 2000 when W won.)

And I do not think that Jochen's fears are unjustified. Listen to him. You don't have to agree, but listen. He comes from a place that is fresh with the experience, and the consequences, of the real life manifestations of these phenomena. It happened, and Jochen knows what the tracks of that animal look like.

Thanks for listening to me!
Grant

 

On 1/12/17 6:07 AM, Eric Charles wrote:

The comparison of Meryl Streep to Klemperer or von Galen seems more baffling to me than the original conversation. As some on social media have been pointing out, she stood in a room full of like minded people, and spoke their collective mind, with no risk to her career or her person. She didn't say anything not being chanted from the rooftops by hundreds of thousands of other people, and said publically, by prominent celebrities and members of the press every day.

 

Are we really worried Meryl will be disappeared in the coming weeks, and gassed? Are we worried she will be hit with false charges, arrested without trial, and have her properties become forfeit to the state? Are we even worried she might be blacklisted and never act again? And even if she did, are we worried she won't be able to get by in this world and support her family with the $75 million she already has? Those are honest questions.

 

Maybe I'm very confused about what "courageous" means. I would consider the average BLM marcher, or women's march participant, more courageous. They could be attacked by police or counter protesters, they could be arrested, they could be fired from their jobs, they could become ostracized by their communities, etc. Heck, Jill Stein got herself arrested at Standing Rock and hardly anyone seemed to notice. I'm not saying Meryl didn't give a good speech, or that it was unimportant, but I honestly wonder what risk we really think she faces as a result of that speech, which leads us to dub her act so courageous, and to compare it to the actions of the other individuals mentioned.

 

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician

U.S. Marine Corps

 

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Meryl Streep reminds me of Clemens August Graf von Galen, who was one of the few bishops that had the courage to criticize the Nazi regime. He was a bishop in my hometown Münster near the Dutch border. In his sermons he criticized that the Nazis were killing innocent disabled people. The program was named T4. The Nazis let him live because he was too popular among the people. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen

 

Many other priests and bishops were imprisoned by the Gestapo  (the secret state police) in concentration camps and died. In St. Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin many of those are mentioned on memorial plagues. While it may be futile to resist, those who have the courage to do it are not forgotten. 

 

It can also help to document the things that are unfolding, the violations of human rights, the corruption, and the injustice. In Dresden there was a Jewish professor Victor Klemperer who covered the actions of the Nazi regime in his diaries and journals. He was an important witness of all the injustice that happened. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer

 

-J.

 

 

-------- Original message --------

From: glen ☣ <[hidden email]>

Date: 1/12/17 02:07 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?

 

But the question is what actions are guided by remote diagnosis?  I admit that I hope high visibility shaming like that from Streep, when added to the rest of the stress he will be / has been under, will make him go away.  But it's not likely for the same reasons Steve cites that blame and stigma won't really work on him.

I suppose if we could really confirm that he's a particular type of narcissist, then we could build models of what he may or may not do and choose actions based on their expected efficacy.  But because, almost by definition, everyone who willingly runs for President is a narcissist of some sort or other and to differing extent, that diagnosis isn't helpful.

Listening to the confirmation hearings is more helpful, I think.  Take note of all the (many) issues where Trump and his appointees express diametrically opposite positions.  Focus on those fissures.  At best, his administration will shatter.  At worst, the more distance you can put between the incompetent Cheeto and the competent people surrounding him, the more likely we'll end up with a Bush2 or a late-stage-Reagan ... maybe not good, but not catastrophic.

On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser". There is no way how he can make the country great again. As Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best.
> Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness. Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his image is destroyed. He and his brand have become undistinguishable.
> Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do, build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would want such a future...


--
☣ glen

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Vladimyr writes:

"Then the Americans claimed a total victory in 1945, and got the same slow social disease."

Maybe it could be treated?  Here they used herpes simplex virus.

http://pubmedcentralcanada.ca/pmcc/articles/PMC2763614/

Or perhaps insights as below could be applied via CRISPR?

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867416317433

Marcus

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