"I have no idea what's going on." -- Towelie
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Step 1) Get confused by: https://phys.org/news/2019-05-atomic-function.html
Step 2) Find the actual article: https://journals.aps.org/prx/pdf/10.1103/PhysRevX.9.021002 Step 3) Get irritated by the phrase "three-level system". Step 4) Find ref 14: http://oaktrust.library.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/126621/PhysRevA.78.013803.pdf Step 5) Realize you're no better than Towelie and look up "dark states" on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_state Step 6) Notice the bait-and-switch from "three-level" to "three-state" and stuff Towelie into the Confirmation Homunculus' mouth, mumbling about how energy quantification does imply a ground state, if not a strict hierarchy. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: "I have no idea what's going on." -- Towelie
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Glen writes:
"mumbling about how energy quantification does imply a ground state" I didn't trace through all this, but what about degenerate states (with large Hamming distances)? Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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Right. That's why I qualified it with "if not a strict hierarchy". A basic question that demonstrates my ignorance of physics is: Can an atom jump, say, 2 energy levels with 1 photon of 2x the energy, where it would otherwise jump 2 levels with 2 photons of 1x the energy? I.e. what I (probably mistakenly) call "cross-trophic" interaction.
An additional basic question would be whether or not there are "lateral states of different kind" (that's my own nonsense phrase). I.e. maybe an atom can be in an energy state X that is (reductively) the same energy level as another state Y, but with or without the ability to move from state X to state Y without going up or down in energy level? I presume that in complicated (coherent) systems, with lots of particles, the 2nd question comes out "yes". But in the Monte Carlo style experiment described in Subhanker et al, where each particle is clamped separately, I have no idea. The mysterious incantations of dipole fields and Rabi frequencies seem to imply you could clamp a system with different types of lasers to get "lateral states of different kind" ... it even seems reasonable you could apply two different lasers to the same atom ... though I'm confident in my uncertainty, there. On 5/17/19 11:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > I didn't trace through all this, but what about degenerate states (with large Hamming distances)? -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: "I have no idea what's going on." -- Towelie
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Glen writes:
< An additional basic question would be whether or not there are "lateral states of different kind" (that's my own nonsense phrase). I.e. maybe an atom can be in an energy state X that is (reductively) the same energy level as another state Y, but with or without the ability to move from state X to state Y without going up or down in energy level? > Quantum tunneling enables moving between such states (without kinetic energy). The probability of a configuration comes from the energy of the configuration, not the details of the configuration. Even a ground state doesn't have to be a unique configuration. There's also the notion of superposition states that aren't even definite states, but nonetheless can be characterized by their energy (and probability). Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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This is interesting. To what extent is "energy" a reductive projection of what's actually (ontologically) extant? What details are being reduced out? If it helps, maybe it would be useful to avoid the concept of energy and rely instead on "probability" or superposition.
In the wake of Eric's post waaayyy back in early May mentioning decoherent histories, I found this presentation: http://quantum.phys.cmu.edu/CHS/CHS_transp.pdf, with one slide saying: > • Quantum mechanics: three options for probabilities > (i) Use standard theory; > (ii) Invent new one; > (iii) Become confused (very popular option) > • Consistent histories uses standard probability theory > · There are two tasks: > - Define quantum sample space S > - Introduce probabilities Pr And Eric had already said: On 5/1/19 10:55 PM, David Eric Smith wrote: > What my physics did was construct the whole space of possible state vectors, and explain the role any particular one of them would play as cause. It did not choose for me, which particular state in the space of the possible describes a particular instance, and it could not do so, having set up the whole space as the realm of possibilities. Given all that, and what you say ("... not the details of the configuration"), I have trouble getting lost in the difference between the reduction and the fully detailed *thing* that I'm predisposed to imagine is "really" out there ... the thing being reduced. ... Having re-read such things over and over and, perhaps having my brain polluted by things like this: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/may/03/death-of-debate-jordan-peterson-slavoj-zizek-alexandria-ocasio-cortez ... yes, I know, non-sequiturs notwithstanding ... I can't help but wonder how anyone can remain enamored with the partial orderings we consistently impute. What evidence is there of degenerate ground states? On 5/17/19 1:34 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Quantum tunneling enables moving between such states (without kinetic energy). The probability of a configuration comes from the energy of the configuration, not the details of the configuration. Even a ground state doesn't have to be a unique configuration. There's also the notion of superposition states that aren't even definite states, but nonetheless can be characterized by their energy (and probability). -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: "I have no idea what's going on." -- Towelie
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Glen writes:
< To what extent is "energy" a reductive projection of what's actually (ontologically) extant? > In the case of the physics of a crystal or a restricted Boltzmann machine (a neural net), it could be a sufficient description... < Given all that, and what you say ("... not the details of the configuration"), I have trouble getting lost in the difference between the reduction and the fully detailed *thing* that I'm predisposed to imagine is "really" out there ... the thing being reduced. > ..but if a spin approximates something more than a spin, then the reduction (interpreting energy) could be a lossy reduction. The assumption here is that there is nothing `below' the spins of interest, all that matters is a spin as it is coupled to other spins, and the consequences of that is revealed by energy. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: "I have no idea what's going on." -- Towelie
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In reply to this post by gepr
Glen writes:
"What evidence is there of degenerate ground states?" The Hamiltonians for a logical operator like an OR gate need ground-state degeneracies for non-trivial applications. Configuration Input0 Input1 -> Output A 0 0 -> 0 B 0 1 -> 1 C 1 0 -> 1 D 1 1 -> 1 P(A) = P(B) = P(C) = P(D) = 0.25 If the probabilities (thus energies) were not balanced, then the OR gate could not be inverted in a fair way. Excited eigenstates typically exist, but they would give configurations that were wrong like "D 0 0 -> 1". Suppose one wanted to find the key for a complex encryption circuit. A gate encoding that completely favored one gate, P(X) = 1, would not enable search. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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OK. Well, I thought I could've digested the two papers by this time. But I've failed and will probably give up for now. It's still entirely unclear to me how the 3 level system's dark states facilitate the finer-than-diffraction-limited resolution. So, I can't place the OR gate example into the context of the laser lattice and my 1st basic question about energy state transitions via different energy photons.
I believe I grok your point about any given "degenerate" state being "computed over" as if it is or could be real[ized], just so that the solutions are meaningful. But in the context of microscopy, distinguishing things below the resolution allowed by the drive beam, I remain completely lost. Hopefully, I'll try again soon ... maybe on an airplane flight when I have nothing to distract me. 8^) On 5/18/19 8:00 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Glen writes: > > "What evidence is there of degenerate ground states?" > > The Hamiltonians for a logical operator like an OR gate need ground-state degeneracies for non-trivial applications. > > Configuration Input0 Input1 -> Output > A 0 0 -> 0 > B 0 1 -> 1 > C 1 0 -> 1 > D 1 1 -> 1 > > P(A) = P(B) = P(C) = P(D) = 0.25 > > If the probabilities (thus energies) were not balanced, then the OR gate could not be inverted in a fair way. Excited eigenstates typically exist, but they would give configurations that were wrong like "D 0 0 -> 1". Suppose one wanted to find the key for a complex encryption circuit. A gate encoding that completely favored one gate, P(X) = 1, would not enable search. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: "I have no idea what's going on." -- Towelie
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Hopefully, I'll try again soon ... maybe on an airplane flight when I have nothing to distract me. 8^) Well, except nothing perhaps but hurtling at 60 percent of the speed of sound, at ten percent of normal oxygen levels, at 30 degrees below zero packed in with a 160 other sardines in zorris and hawaian shirts, a third of whom are presumably infected with measles. You can read on airplanes???! Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- OK. Well, I thought I could've digested the two papers by this time. But I've failed and will probably give up for now. It's still entirely unclear to me how the 3 level system's dark states facilitate the finer-than-diffraction-limited resolution. So, I can't place the OR gate example into the context of the laser lattice and my 1st basic question about energy state transitions via different energy photons. I believe I grok your point about any given "degenerate" state being "computed over" as if it is or could be real[ized], just so that the solutions are meaningful. But in the context of microscopy, distinguishing things below the resolution allowed by the drive beam, I remain completely lost. Hopefully, I'll try again soon ... maybe on an airplane flight when I have nothing to distract me. 8^) On 5/18/19 8:00 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Glen writes: > > "What evidence is there of degenerate ground states?" > > The Hamiltonians for a logical operator like an OR gate need ground-state degeneracies for non-trivial applications. > > Configuration Input0 Input1 -> Output > A 0 0 -> 0 > B 0 1 -> 1 > C 1 0 -> 1 > D 1 1 -> 1 > > P(A) = P(B) = P(C) = P(D) = 0.25 > > If the probabilities (thus energies) were not balanced, then the OR gate could not be inverted in a fair way. Excited eigenstates typically exist, but they would give configurations that were wrong like "D 0 0 -> 1". Suppose one wanted to find the key for a complex encryption circuit. A gate encoding that completely favored one gate, P(X) = 1, would not enable search. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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Bah! My dad was a pilot. So we flew on "passes" from the time I was born. I've been flying (as mostly a passenger) in 2 seater T-38s, 4 seater excursion flights over glaciers, etc. for my entire life. We even veered off and jumped a couple of runways at SAF with ... a pilot who will remain unnamed back in 2000 or so. I love sitting in the back in those turbo prop puddle jumpers and watching the fuselage torque clock- and counter-clockwise when landing with a heavy crosswind like there in Santa Fe. Of all the ways I've imagined dying since my cancer diagnosis, a plane crash ... or being sucked out a man-sized hole at 40k feet, seem optimal.
The more important issue is that my back and neck problems force me to stay awake in those stupid bucket seats, even if it's a 14 hour red-eye. If I fall asleep and my head tips over, I'll have a neck spasm for the next 4 days, preventing me from turning my head one way or the other. So, the question is: You can *avoid* reading on airplanes?!?!? Luckily, in our upcoming trip, we'll be on an Airbus, instead of a Boeing. Boeing seats SUCK! On 5/22/19 5:41 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Well, except nothing perhaps but hurtling at 60 percent of the speed of sound, at ten percent of normal oxygen levels, at 30 degrees below zero packed in with a 160 other sardines in zorris and hawaian shirts, a third of whom are presumably infected with measles. > > You can read on airplanes???! ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: "I have no idea what's going on." -- Towelie
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In reply to this post by gepr
I wasn't try to relate it to your first question. The evidence that degenerate states exist is that SQUID-based quantum computers can and do generate them.
On 5/22/19, 5:02 PM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: OK. Well, I thought I could've digested the two papers by this time. But I've failed and will probably give up for now. It's still entirely unclear to me how the 3 level system's dark states facilitate the finer-than-diffraction-limited resolution. So, I can't place the OR gate example into the context of the laser lattice and my 1st basic question about energy state transitions via different energy photons. I believe I grok your point about any given "degenerate" state being "computed over" as if it is or could be real[ized], just so that the solutions are meaningful. But in the context of microscopy, distinguishing things below the resolution allowed by the drive beam, I remain completely lost. Hopefully, I'll try again soon ... maybe on an airplane flight when I have nothing to distract me. 8^) On 5/18/19 8:00 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Glen writes: > > "What evidence is there of degenerate ground states?" > > The Hamiltonians for a logical operator like an OR gate need ground-state degeneracies for non-trivial applications. > > Configuration Input0 Input1 -> Output > A 0 0 -> 0 > B 0 1 -> 1 > C 1 0 -> 1 > D 1 1 -> 1 > > P(A) = P(B) = P(C) = P(D) = 0.25 > > If the probabilities (thus energies) were not balanced, then the OR gate could not be inverted in a fair way. Excited eigenstates typically exist, but they would give configurations that were wrong like "D 0 0 -> 1". Suppose one wanted to find the key for a complex encryption circuit. A gate encoding that completely favored one gate, P(X) = 1, would not enable search. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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