High Voltage, cell phones and other scary things

[Nick Thompson]

Folks,

I am getting confused again:  Can somebody confirm or deny the following:?

(1) We have two worries here, high voltage transients and cell phone use.  

(2) They have nothing to do with each other, right?

(3) In the study on high voltage transients, the excess cancers were
melanomas, right?  Could this have had anything todo with the fact that the
study was done in California?  What was taken as the base rate for
melanoma?   I feel the Reverend Bayes is about to enter the argument.

(4)  What were the controls on the study on cell phone use?   Stress and
heat are both known causes of lazy sperm.   I would worry about laptop use
before I would worry about cell phone use.  Not only do laptops put out of
wifi signal, they cook your crotch to the temperature of rare roast beef,
if you hold them in your lap.  Also, the stress effect of multitasking,
particularly if one of the tasks is talking for more than 4 hours a day
over a bad telephone connection ... ALL cell phones are bad .. should be
measureable.  

(5)  Finally, are we worried about sperm counts because we are worried
about our fertility, or because sperm are the canaries in the mine?  

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University (nthompson at clarku.edu)

> [Original Message]
> From: <friam-request at redfish.com>
> To: <friam at redfish.com>
> Date: 6/8/2008 10:00:54 AM
> Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 60, Issue 6
>
> Send Friam mailing list submissions to
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. "Dirty Power" Linked to Cancers in California School in
>       Milham-Morgan Study (peter)
>    2. Men who use mobile phones face increased risk of infertility
>       | Mail Online (peter)
>    3. Mixing Incredible Modeling tools (peter)
>    4. Re: also Th!nk City electric car from Norway...: Guerin:
>       Murray 2008.06.07 (Tom Johnson)
>    5. Re: "Dirty Power" Linked to Cancers in California School in
>       Milham-Morgan Study (Marcus G. Daniels)
>    6. A band that uses only IPODS  !!! (peter)
>    7. Re: "Dirty Power" Linked to Cancers in California School in
>       Milham-Morgan Study (G?nther Greindl)
>    8. Re: "Dirty Power" Linked to Cancers in California School in
>       Milham-Morgan Study (Marcus G. Daniels)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 12:02:07 -0600
> From: peter <pete at ideapete.com>
> Subject: [FRIAM] "Dirty Power" Linked to Cancers in California School
> in Milham-Morgan Study
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <484ACD1F.20503 at ideapete.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24957072/
>
> This is re the comments posted recently on power magnetic field health
> causes, there are a few PDFs also on line which seem to make sense
>
> Again I think these are ways that we can model and demonstrate in the
> real world at the center to prove validity and I just cannot wait for
> Steve to sponsor a summer race with the kids in santa fe, for the

following

>
> " Redfish's great cell phone popcorn popping completion "  the first one
> to pop a full cup of popcorn with their cell phones wins xxx for life
> --- No LANL or Sandia modifications allowed and no cell phones the size
> of a pickup truck..     The banner alone should prove awesome
>
> ( : ( : pete
> --
>
> Peter Baston
>
> *IDEAS*
>
> /www.ideapete.com/ <http://www.ideapete.com/>
>
>
>  
>
>  
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 12:05:03 -0600
> From: peter <pete at ideapete.com>
> Subject: [FRIAM] Men who use mobile phones face increased risk of
> infertility | Mail Online
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <484ACDCF.4050100 at ideapete.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-412179/Men-use-mobile-phones-face-in
creased-risk-infertility.html

>
> ( : ( : pete
> --
>
> Peter Baston
>
> *IDEAS*
>
> /www.ideapete.com/ <http://www.ideapete.com/>
>
>
>  
>
>  
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 12:21:28 -0600
> From: peter <pete at ideapete.com>
> Subject: [FRIAM] Mixing Incredible Modeling tools
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <484AD1A8.2070401 at ideapete.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Three of the most powerful modeling tools we have experimented with are
>
> http://www.antics3d.com/
>
> http://sketchup.google.com/
>
> http://earth.google.com/
>
> Antics does POWERFUL animation ( Go ok you will not believe the results
> ) and the power of sketchup mixed with the goggle tool set, earth, gears
> and other attributes is awesome " All interact well "
>
> One of SKPs biggest secrets is the use of Ruby on Rails running in the
> background so that almost any attribute can be manipulated " Such as  
> Physics " and for the more adventurous you can role your own. API access
> and registration for the truly creative also available
>
> Go look at some of the demos and turn these loose with your kids this
> summer and you will not hear a peep outa them. You can build or download
> complex infrastructure models in SKP and download them into the antics
> modeling programs and ready made humans scenes and actions and even
> produce a full animation production files
>
> The icing on the cake is that all have free versions that produce beyond
> professional results
>
> I think Owen is researching some summer camp ideas for the complex and
> these should be high on our list
>
>
> ( : ( : pete
> --
>
> Peter Baston
>
> *IDEAS*
>
> /www.ideapete.com/ <http://www.ideapete.com/>
>
>
>  
>
>  
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 12:20:32 -0600
> From: "Tom Johnson" <tom at jtjohnson.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] also Th!nk City electric car from Norway...:
> Guerin: Murray 2008.06.07
> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group"
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID:
> <e04090490806071120g430b0084i147ab2816f1ae99f at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Is Think City the company in Norway that Gov. Bill Richardson is visiting
> next week?
> -tj
>
> On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 12:36 AM, Rich Murray <rmforall at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > also Th!nk City electric car from Norway...: Guerin: Murray 2008.06.07
> >
> > Hi Stephen,  Some of us at Friam have talked about possible investments

in
> > alternative energy, so I thought this info about current tech on the
market
> > would be of interest, particularly with a local office --
> > maybe Conergy would like to connect with Santa Fe Complex.  Conergy is
now
> > offering Nanosolar technology for affordable solar power for
communities on
> > the scale of El Dorado, which is just sort of thing that could be
> > visualized
> > on the sand table.  Santa Fe could be a world leader as a community that
> > switches from coal, gas, and nuclear to solar and wind power.
> >
> > If we also attract an assembly plant for the Th!nk City electric car
from
> > Norway, 124 mile daily range at 65 mph, then in a few years most
pollution
> > would be gone from our air, with major health benefits.....!
> >
> > In mutual service,  Rich Murray 505-501-2298  rmforall at comcast.net
> >
> >
> >
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/25/officially-official-th-nk-city-elect
ric-car-on-sale-in-the-uk-t/
> >
> > AutoblogGreen
> > Officially official: Th!nk City electric car on sale in the UK this fall
> >
> > Posted Mar 25th 2008 3:10PM by Sebastian Blanco
> > Filed under: EV/Plug-in, Green Daily, UK, Th!nk (Think)
> >
> > March has been a big month for Th!nk, with the news about $4m
investments
> > and the new Ox model out of Geneva. We knew EV fans in Norway would be
able
> > to buy a Th!nk City soon, and the good news for Britons is that the City
> > will be available to order in the UK sometime "during the last quarter
of
> > this year." Smart Planet notes that the Th!nk City's running costs of
> > around
> > 1.25p a mile are a good place to be and "exactly halfway between the
usual
> > stated costs of the G-Wiz and the Mega City." While the Th!nk City does
> > take
> > longer to charge than some other EVs (10 hours at a standard plug vs.
4-6),
> > you get more performance from it. 124 miles per charge being the big
one; a
> > little bit of punch with a 0-30 speed of 6.5 seconds being the other. UK
> > buyers can expect to pay ?14,000 (just under $28,000US) for a Th!nk
City -

> > plus ?100 per month for a battery rental. Details after the jump.
> >
> > Gallery: Th!nk City Electric Vehicle
> >
> >
> ==========================================
> J. T. Johnson
> Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
> www.analyticjournalism.com
> 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
> http://www.jtjohnson.com tom at jtjohnson.com
>
> "You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
> To change something, build a new model that makes the
> existing model obsolete."
> -- Buckminster Fuller
> ==========================================
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:24:22 -0600
> From: "Marcus G. Daniels" <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Dirty Power" Linked to Cancers in California
> School in Milham-Morgan Study
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <48499CF6.3070600 at snoutfarm.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24957072/
> >
> > This is re the comments posted recently on power magnetic field health
> > causes, there are a few PDFs also on line which seem to make sense
>
> Here's the abstract of the paper.  
>
>    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119553477/abstract
>
> The paper itself you'd need to pull from your research library.   I did,
> and in addition to the stats in the abstract, apparently there were two
> rooms with ongoing and rapid changes in high frequency (~12 kHz)
> transients, and both of those cases had teachers that developed cancer.
>
> It seems like a fine thing to do to study the biology of all this.  For
> example, here's a company that seems to be on to something:
>
>     http://www.novocuretrial.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 16:23:05 -0600
> From: peter <pete at ideapete.com>
> Subject: [FRIAM] A band that uses only IPODS  !!!
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <484B0A49.8060000 at ideapete.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwoPgnvpPQg&feature=related
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6qKPUB3tro&NR=1
>
> (  : ( :  pete
> --
>
> Peter Baston
>
> *IDEAS*
>
> /www.ideapete.com/ <http://www.ideapete.com/>
>
>
>  
>
>  
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 00:40:50 +0200
> From: G?nther Greindl <guenther.greindl at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Dirty Power" Linked to Cancers in California
> School in Milham-Morgan Study
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <484B0E72.6090506 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Hi,
>
> sounds scary. What I find strange is this: they say at the beginning of
> the paper:
>
> There are many sources of ??dirty power?? in today?s
> electrical equipment. Examples of electrical equipment
> designed to operate with interrupted current flow are light
> dimmer switches that interrupt the current twice per cycle
> (120 times/s), power saving compact fluorescent lights that
> interrupt the current at least 20,000 times/s, halogen lamps,
> electronic transformers and most electronic equipment
> manufactured since the mid-1980s that use switching power
> supplies. Dirty power generated by electrical equipment in a
> building is distributed throughout the building on the electric
> wiring. Dirty power generated outside the building enters the
> building on electric wiring and through ground rods and
> conductive plumbing, while within buildings, it is usually the
> result of interrupted current generated by electrical appliances
> and equipment.
>
>
> I mean, everybody has this stuff at home: why then the cluster at that
> school? Wouldn't that speak against transients being responsible
> (because they exist everywhere)?
>
> (I am no electrical engineer)
>
> Regards,
> G?nther
>
> Marcus G. Daniels wrote:
> >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24957072/
> >>
> >> This is re the comments posted recently on power magnetic field health
> >> causes, there are a few PDFs also on line which seem to make sense
> >
> > Here's the abstract of the paper.  
> >
> >    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119553477/abstract
> >
> > The paper itself you'd need to pull from your research library.   I

did,

> > and in addition to the stats in the abstract, apparently there were two
> > rooms with ongoing and rapid changes in high frequency (~12 kHz)
> > transients, and both of those cases had teachers that developed cancer.
> >
> > It seems like a fine thing to do to study the biology of all this.  For
> > example, here's a company that seems to be on to something:
> >
> >     http://www.novocuretrial.com
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:08:31 -0600
> From: "Marcus G. Daniels" <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Dirty Power" Linked to Cancers in California
> School in Milham-Morgan Study
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <484B14EF.60305 at snoutfarm.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> G?nther Greindl wrote:
> > I mean, everybody has this stuff at home: why then the cluster at that
> > school? Wouldn't that speak against transients being responsible
> > (because they exist everywhere)?
> >  
> If it were that common, then a 1/10000 would be expected.  Maybe La
> Quinta was just the one.
> It did sound like it was particularly powerful transients, though.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Friam mailing list
> Friam at redfish.com
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
> End of Friam Digest, Vol 60, Issue 6
> ************************************

[Marcus G. Daniels]

Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> I am getting confused again:  Can somebody confirm or deny the following:?
>
> (1) We have two worries here, high voltage transients and cell phone use.  
>
> (2) They have nothing to do with each other, right?
>  
As I understand it, the transients hypothesis is that high frequency
voltage spikes may induce currents in cells and that these can be above
the normal potentials used for cell signaling.    Here the frequency
range is relatively low, up to 12 KHz or so.
Normally the currents that can be induced in tissue by magnetic and
electric fields are several orders of magnitude below what is there
naturally, though.   (In the NovoCure brain tumor therapy they had to
come up with a distributed stimulation technique to avoid burning the
scalp to deliver the needed voltages to influence [cancer] mitosis.)

Cell phone concerns can be divided into thermal changes (they heat up
nearby tissue), and non-thermal effects which are claimed to exist but
the research is sketchy and mysterious.

> (3) In the study on high voltage transients, the excess cancers were
> melanomas, right?  Could this have had anything todo with the fact that the
> study was done in California?  What was taken as the base rate for
> melanoma?   I feel the Reverend Bayes is about to enter the argument.
>  
There are some slides on that here:  http://lqms.net/Milham.aspx
(They say no, slide 13.)

That doesn't preclude other confounding factors, however.  e.g. common
histories or habits of those teachers, or some other non-obvious
correlate of those spikes.  Say flickering lights or annoying hum, that
led them to a behavior that was associated with a carcinogen...they had
a headache, so when they got home they sat in the sun and smoked
cigarettes..
>  would worry about laptop use
> before I would worry about cell phone use.  Not only do laptops put out of
> wifi signal, they cook your crotch to the temperature of rare roast beef,
> if you hold them in your lap.
A WiFi signal power is way below a cell phone.  There is also complex
EMR from the microprocessor that's can be as a high of a frequency as
WiFi.   But the heat isn't because you are being microwaved, it's just
that microprocessors are very hot.   (If you take a heatsink of a
running computer's microprocessor and put your finger on the CPU, it
_will_ hurt!)

If you want to do something to reduce your exposure to microwaves, don't
put a cell phone (or cordless phone or walkie talkie) next to your
head.   WiFi from your laptop is less than 1/10th of the power, and
signal power falls of as 1/distance^2.  Putting the laptop on the desk
instead of your lap will decrease signal strength to the level that
groups like Bioinitiative advocate (0.1 microwatts / cm^2).

Marcus