Government Shutdown
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Gillian Densmore wrote at 10/01/2013 02:18 PM:
> So my question is: as such can Obama not replace the people that forced the > closure? No, not directly. They're elected by their various districts. He can definitely apply lots of pressure he (seems to) have not yet applied, though. -- ⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella Will you be entertained by beast and knives? ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Gillian Densmore
On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
But the last time the GOP shut down the government, 17 years ago, they ended up getting creamed at the polls and Bill Clinton got re-elected. -- rec -- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by cody dooderson
Heres one more try at the haiku thing. congress is messing stuff up seems normal to me
Cody Smith On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 1:22 PM, cody dooderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2
On 10/1/13 3:55 PM, Roger Critchlow
wrote:
I'm not sure what they would be prosecuted *for*? Acting in bad faith? My memory isn't good enough to know what happened in times before that. Late 70's there was quite a bit of thrashing around shutdowns it seems? With a fullhouse of democrats (whitehouse, senate *and* congress)? - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by cody dooderson
haikus continue
dooderson restates obvious all is well on FRIAM
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Steve Smith wrote at 10/01/2013 03:49 PM:
> I'm not sure what they would be prosecuted *for*? Acting in bad faith? We're not talking about the shutdown, per se. If the House refuses to pass a bill to raise the debt limit, then the country defaults. It's unclear to me what that implies. But I assume, since it's new territory, a team of creative attorneys could figure out some way to hold the guilty accountable. At the very least, they should choose a new speaker. -- ⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella Root up the trees caress the dirt ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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Your children and grandchildren will suffer from this sabotaging of
the US government. None of this is funny. On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 4:25 PM, glen <[hidden email]> wrote: > Steve Smith wrote at 10/01/2013 03:49 PM: >> >> I'm not sure what they would be prosecuted *for*? Acting in bad faith? > > > We're not talking about the shutdown, per se. If the House refuses to pass > a bill to raise the debt limit, then the country defaults. It's unclear to > me what that implies. But I assume, since it's new territory, a team of > creative attorneys could figure out some way to hold the guilty accountable. > > At the very least, they should choose a new speaker. > > -- > =><= glen e. p. ropella > Root up the trees caress the dirt > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To reply to our email administrator directly, please send an email to [hidden email]. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-5
Got it in one.
J. On 10/1/13 12:16 AM, Jochen Fromm
wrote:
-- "Sunlight is the best disinfectant." -- Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis, 1913. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Patrick Reilly
On 10/1/13 5:34 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:
> Your children and grandchildren will suffer from this sabotaging of > the US government. None of this is funny. As they will also from our collective sabotaging of the environment and the economies and societies of the third world, yet we seem to continue to fiddle (watch TV, eat junk food, argue online) as the world oxidizes. The Anarcho-Libertarian in me has me trying to help them (my two daughters and my one granddaughter) be more prepared personally for the less than ideal circumstances we are collectively creating for ourselves (more to the point, them). The Humanist in me has me wishing we could do better than this, hoping we can do better, trusting we can do better. I'm sure those "sabotaging" the government think they are rescuing it... I don't hold with the right wing rhetoric on such topics but when I do listen to it carefully and openly enough, I know that they at least, believe it themselves. My biggest honest hope in the moment, perhaps, parallels the comment about the backlash against the GOP's last shutdown. Sometimes things *do* have to get worse before they get better. That is not to say that I fully support the "other side" in all things, I think there is plenty of hard-headed thinking there too, but in this era I'd call them the significantly lesser of evils. A compromise at this point is better than nothing.... but as with Obama's election, I can only call it "a good start"... What I really *wish* for is a more enlightened self interest from all of us on topics ranging from the environment to economy to foreign policy. I don't know where that will come from... probably not a religious or political leader or institution, and probably not from any particular "guru". Perhaps it is the very hard knocks we are enduring (at our own hand?) that will lead us to more perspective. One of the things I like to believe our last dozen years of folly may bring is some perspective... Hope springs infernal, - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Joe Spinden
Assuming the pres invokes the 14th amendment, and it goes to the
supremes, what happens while they're hearing it?
Of course the teeps might not push the case uphill, given their prior belief in said court decisions, and that they're anarchists. C. On 10/1/13 6:04 PM, Joseph Spinden
wrote:
Got it in one. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Patrick Reilly
I meant to make a general statement to the list about how I feel about
the dismantlement of the US by anarcho-capitalists and liberterians-of-convenience. My comment was meant to be "in the stream" and was not directed at your specific comments. My apologies for allowing my taste for brevity to lead my sparse commentary to appear to be an attack of your messaging. On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 4:59 PM, glen <[hidden email]> wrote: > Patrick Reilly wrote at 10/01/2013 04:34 PM: >> >> Your children and grandchildren will suffer from this sabotaging of >> the US government. None of this is funny. > > > Sorry. I don't understand. Are you suggesting that I'm making fun of the > situation? > > -- > =><= glen e. p. ropella > The world says I need some help > -- The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To reply to our email administrator directly, please send an email to [hidden email]. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Patrick Reilly
On 10/1/13 5:34 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:
> Your children and grandchildren will suffer from this sabotaging of > the US government. None of this is funny. > Is someone laughing? Not Pelosi, who calls them "arsonists", or Reid who calls them "anarchists", or the president who says they want a "ransom". If even these leaders use rhetoric like this one might pause to remember that other countries (e.g. Egypt) have been known recently to round-up a backward minority like the Muslim Brotherhood full stop. How far? Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Patrick Reilly
Patrick -
Thanks for weighing in, even if your terseness got mistaken for some form of criticism! > I meant to make a general statement to the list about how I feel about > the dismantlement of the US by anarcho-capitalists and > liberterians-of-convenience. My comment was meant to be "in the > stream" and was not directed at your specific comments. My apologies > for allowing my taste for brevity to lead my sparse commentary to > appear to be an attack of your messaging. I myself admit to having an overly large sense of morbid fascination, so *I* may be guilty of taking morbid pleasure in the kinds of things being discussed. I love a good Zombie Apocalypse even if it is only metaphorical. I also give your "Libertarians of convenience" a thumbs up even if I may be one. Although I *identify* with some of the spirit of Anarcho-Libertarianism, it is a *personal* preference which I do not expect others to participate in. I don't honestly expect a Liberatarian Utopia to happen (much less be desirable) but I *do* think that a faction of (generous?) Libertarians (oxymoron?) can do a lot to improve the world. This is where I find card-carrying Libertarians to fail... they insist on personal choice being paramount and then try to foist it on everyone else... paradox much? - Steve > > On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 4:59 PM, glen <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Patrick Reilly wrote at 10/01/2013 04:34 PM: >>> Your children and grandchildren will suffer from this sabotaging of >>> the US government. None of this is funny. >> >> Sorry. I don't understand. Are you suggesting that I'm making fun of the >> situation? >> >> -- >> =><= glen e. p. ropella >> The world says I need some help >> > > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
Suggestion to those really concerned: follow Larry Lessig and RootStrikers.
Their premise is simple: we have lost our republic and they are working on regaining it. Larry has been successful in several areas, especially Law and Computation. His Code Is Law book nailed much of what we are struggling with.
Otherwise, just keep on trucking!
Oh, what I like about them most? They're working with Mark Meckler, a tea party founder.
Move along, nothing here.
-- Owen On Tue, Oct 1, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Marcus G. Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Steve:
I was a card carrying Libertarian at the age of 19. At the age of 57 and having some life experience under my belt, I am very skeptical that applying "first principles" in rational good faith will yield effective results. For two examples , I first offer the spectacle of the former Fed Chief Greenspan admitting that he hadn't considered the possibility of personal greed affecting the decisions of bank CEO's, and a second example of the Chicago School founder proclaiming the all volunteer army as his greatest accomplishment of all.
The vision of triumphantly reducing the decision to put your life in harm's way in order to defend your ideals and liberty and the liberty and welfare of those around you to an economy choice particularly turns my stomach.
Expanding on this testament of my loathing, I see most right wing drivel as dogmatic cover that exists for the same purpose as most religious and political dogma: to justify unnecessary cruelty. --- Par On Tuesday, October 1, 2013, Steve Smith wrote: Patrick - -- The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To reply to our email administrator directly, please send an email to [hidden email]. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
On 10/1/13 8:34 PM, Owen Densmore
wrote:
Campaign finance is a problem, so I should want the prototypical 1% fat cat (Koch) to sponsor more tea party candidates? Frying pan, fire. No thanks. These tea party people are just jealous that they are not big dog, but they wouldn't know what to do if they were. I'm certainly no Republican, but it's hard not to feel sorry for the damage being done to their party. Sure, I'm all in favor of bounding the power of all organizations through the use of technology. I don't need to join with the crazies to see the value in that. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Patrick Reilly
Patrick Reilly wrote at 10/01/2013 08:07 PM:
> The vision of triumphantly reducing the decision to put your life in > harm's way in order to defend your ideals and liberty and the liberty and > welfare of those around you to an economy choice particularly turns my > stomach. FWIW, I agree wholeheartedly. I similarly sense the pinch of the dichotomy between requiring a structured commitment from the soldiers, yet allowing them to retain some autonomy (e.g. http://phys.org/news/2013-03-soldiers-disobey-illegal.html), for all sorts of reasons... not just avoiding criminal prosecution, but to help them preserve their personal identity. Personally, I thought fairly hard about joining the reserves after 9/11. I didn't join the military when I was young largely because my dad (a former drill sergeant, and pretty much a right winger) convinced me that joining was a bad idea, for me anyway. Then when BushCo launched the unjustified invasion of Iraq, I was happy I'd _again_ followed my right wing dad's advice. (His political views changed drastically as he started dying from congestive heart failure... which took about a year. Funny how imminent death changes one's perspective.) > Expanding on this testament of my loathing, I see most right wing drivel as > dogmatic cover that exists for the same purpose as most religious and > political dogma: to justify unnecessary cruelty. I agree with your gist, but not your word "cruelty". I think it's really _fear_. Cruelty implies a dispassionate lack of caring. These wingers seem to care quite a bit, to me. They're desperately afraid of the future, of uncertainty, of loss of control. There may be some more aloof, rational, unemotional people like Rove or perhaps the Kochs who are just plain cruel. But most of the tea partiers I've met are plain old ignorant. And that ignorance correlates with fear. And the fear causes their bad behavior. At least that's how I choose to see them ... call me delusional. 8^) -- ⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella Like it's screwed itself in hell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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