Google, GPS and "We know where you are."
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Google, GPS and "We know where you are."
 
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Colleagues:
In recent days, Google announced the beta of some software for a GPS-equipped mobile phones. See http://tinyurl.com/yrvfo3 The way it works is by picking up a signal from cell towers, it indicates the phone's location with a blue dot on Google's Mobil Maps. (For what it's worth, I have Google Mobile Maps on my Treo 650, but I have yet to get this version to work.) Here's my question: Would it be possible for the Google mothership to do the equivalent of "pinging" my phone number, not to make a call but to see if (a) the phone is on and if so (b) where is that phone? The phone wouldn't ring, so the user would have no idea he/she is being geo-located. I assume that if Google could do that, those phone numbers and geocodes could easily become a data base appropriate for some interesting data mining, both as a static bit of insight and if done, say, every hour, whew. What a rich pile of insight for all sorts of people, businesses and survey agencies. Putting aside issues of a person's privacy, just the collective data about where that particular phone is going -- forget who owns it -- would be rather amazing and useful to some. So, back to the questions: 1) Would those pings of a phone be possible? 2) Would the results reflect location and movement of that phone down to what degree of distance today? Are we talking meters or kilometers or ???? 3) And if Google wasn't doing the pinging, could anyone who had my phone number track my location and/or distance from any originating dialing point/server? Thanks, Tom Johnson -- ========================================== J. T. Johnson Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA www.analyticjournalism.com 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h) http://www.jtjohnson.com tom at jtjohnson.com "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." -- Buckminster Fuller ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20071203/f87cfa93/attachment.html |
Google, GPS and "We know where you are."
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Well, according to this slashdot:
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/23/196229 which points to this Washington Post article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/22/AR2007112201444_pf.html the feds have been routinely asking for and getting real time cell tower tracking information from your phone provider, even though it runs counter to DoJ guidelines. So that's with access to the cell phone infrastructure but it's roughly the same information that GoogleMaps is using to locate your phone without GPS. As for bugging your phone, sure, it would be no problem to write a small program which ran on your Treo, woke up regularly, checked the cell id's on the closest towers, and SMS'ed that information to someone who was interested. You might notice the extra interference on your car FM radio if you have a GSM phone, you might notice the SMS charges on your phone bill, or you might walk around announcing your location until the phone broke. But the pings, the handshakes with the cell towers, are infrastructural, they're your phone's business and the phone company's business, and they only go further if your phone or your phone company explicitly shares them. The precision depends on the density of the towers and how well the intersecting sectors have been mapped by GPS phones. While GMaps is active on the phone, it's reading out the id's for the nearest tower/cells and the signal strength for each id. If the phone has GPS, it sends the cell id's/signal strength and the GPS location to mother google for her world map. If the phone has no GPS, it just sends the cell id's/signal strength to mother google. She checks her map and sends back an estimated location and error. That it's not working around Santa Fe probably means that there aren't many, or any, GPS enabled phones running GoogleMaps and reporting actual locations around these parts. But Google can't ping your phone, it's your phone that pings the towers to maintain its connectivity. And Google only collects the tower id/signal strength/location information, because collecting identities would be evil, not to mention hideously expensive given that there is one cell phone for every two people on earth as of last thursday: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/29/213245 -- rec -- On Dec 3, 2007 1:10 AM, Tom Johnson <tom at jtjohnson.com> wrote: > Colleagues: > > In recent days, Google announced the beta of some software for a > GPS-equipped mobile phones. See http://tinyurl.com/yrvfo3 > The way it works is by picking up a signal from cell towers, it indicates > the phone's location with a blue dot on Google's Mobil Maps. (For what it's > worth, I have Google Mobile Maps on my Treo 650, but I have yet to get this > version to work.) > > Here's my question: > > Would it be possible for the Google mothership to do the equivalent of > "pinging" my phone number, not to make a call but to see if (a) the phone is > on and if so (b) where is that phone? The phone wouldn't ring, so the user > would have no idea he/she is being geo-located. I assume that if Google > could do that, those phone numbers and geocodes could easily become a data > base appropriate for some interesting data mining, both as a static bit of > insight and if done, say, every hour, whew. What a rich pile of insight for > all sorts of people, businesses and survey agencies. Putting aside issues > of a person's privacy, just the collective data about where that particular > phone is going -- forget who owns it -- would be rather amazing and useful > to some. > > So, back to the questions: > > 1) Would those pings of a phone be possible? > 2) Would the results reflect location and movement of that phone down to > what degree of distance today? Are we talking meters or kilometers or ???? > 3) And if Google wasn't doing the pinging, could anyone who had my phone > number track my location and/or distance from any originating dialing > point/server? > > Thanks, > Tom Johnson > > -- > ========================================== > J. T. Johnson > Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA > www.analyticjournalism.com > 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h) > http://www.jtjohnson.com tom at jtjohnson.com > > "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. > To change something, build a new model that makes the > existing model obsolete." > -- Buckminster Fuller > ========================================== > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20071203/e75d5f4b/attachment.html |
Google, GPS and "We know where you are."
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A couple years ago, we did a vis with Nathan Eagle at MIT Media Lab that tracked
100 media lab and sloan school faculty and students' locations based on interpolated tower info. Click on the first visualization: http://reality.media.mit.edu/viz.php The location of the users was augmented by each phone pinging for nearby bluetooth IDs to give 10m proximity information. There's quite a bit of interesting information to be extracted. Here's a powerpoint of Nathan's findings presented at a Where 2.0 conference: http://conferences.oreillynet.com/presentations/where2005/eagle_update.ppt We did have identity information from the volunteer subjects, though. As Roger writes, Google claims to only collect non-identifying tower info... -Stephen > -----Original Message----- > From: Roger Critchlow [mailto:rec at elf.org] > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 9:08 AM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Google, GPS and "We know where you are." > > Well, according to this slashdot: > > http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/23/196229 > > which points to this Washington Post article: > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/2 > 2/AR2007112201444_pf.html > > the feds have been routinely asking for and getting real time > cell tower tracking information from your phone provider, > even though it runs counter to DoJ guidelines. So that's > with access to the cell phone infrastructure but it's roughly > the same information that GoogleMaps is using to locate your > phone without GPS. > > As for bugging your phone, sure, it would be no problem to > write a small program which ran on your Treo, woke up > regularly, checked the cell id's on the closest towers, and > SMS'ed that information to someone who was interested. You > might notice the extra interference on your car FM radio if > you have a GSM phone, you might notice the SMS charges on > your phone bill, or you might walk around announcing your > location until the phone broke. > > But the pings, the handshakes with the cell towers, are > infrastructural, they're your phone's business and the phone > company's business, and they only go further if your phone or > your phone company explicitly shares them. > > The precision depends on the density of the towers and how > well the intersecting sectors have been mapped by GPS phones. > While GMaps is active on the phone, it's reading out the > id's for the nearest tower/cells and the signal strength for > each id. If the phone has GPS, it sends the cell id's/signal > strength and the GPS location to mother google for her world > map. If the phone has no GPS, it just sends the cell > id's/signal strength to mother google. She checks her map > and sends back an estimated location and error. That it's > not working around Santa Fe probably means that there aren't > many, or any, GPS enabled phones running GoogleMaps and > reporting actual locations around these parts. > > But Google can't ping your phone, it's your phone that pings > the towers to maintain its connectivity. And Google only > collects the tower id/signal strength/location information, > because collecting identities would be evil, not to mention > hideously expensive given that there is one cell phone for > every two people on earth as of last thursday: > > http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/29/213245 > > -- rec -- > > > On Dec 3, 2007 1:10 AM, Tom Johnson < tom at jtjohnson.com> wrote: > > > Colleagues: > > In recent days, Google announced the beta of some > software for a GPS-equipped mobile phones. See > http://tinyurl.com/yrvfo3 > The way it works is by picking up a signal from cell > towers, it indicates the phone's location with a blue dot on > Google's Mobil Maps. (For what it's worth, I have Google > Mobile Maps on my Treo 650, but I have yet to get this > version to work.) > > Here's my question: > > Would it be possible for the Google mothership to do > the equivalent of "pinging" my phone number, not to make a > call but to see if (a) the phone is on and if so (b) where is > that phone? The phone wouldn't ring, so the user would have > no idea he/she is being geo-located. I assume that if Google > could do that, those phone numbers and geocodes could easily > become a data base appropriate for some interesting data > mining, both as a static bit of insight and if done, say, > every hour, whew. What a rich pile of insight for all sorts > of people, businesses and survey agencies. Putting aside > issues of a person's privacy, just the collective data about > where that particular phone is going -- forget who owns it -- > would be rather amazing and useful to some. > > So, back to the questions: > > 1) Would those pings of a phone be possible? > 2) Would the results reflect location and movement of > that phone down to what degree of distance today? Are we > talking meters or kilometers or ???? > 3) And if Google wasn't doing the pinging, could anyone > who had my phone number track my location and/or distance > from any originating dialing point/server? > > Thanks, > Tom Johnson > > -- > ========================================== > J. T. Johnson > Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA > www.analyticjournalism.com > 505.577.6482 (c) 505.473.9646(h) > http://www.jtjohnson.com tom at jtjohnson.com > > "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. > To change something, build a new model that makes the > existing model obsolete." > -- > Buckminster Fuller > ========================================== > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at > http://www.friam.org <http://www.friam.org> > > > > |
Google, GPS and "We know where you are."
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In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2
Cell tower data has been used for quite a while to trace the movement of
individuals and groups of individuals around a city or other geographic location. See: http://www.csiss.org/ Gus Koehler, Ph.D. President and Principal Time Structures, Inc. 1545 University Ave. Sacramento, CA 95825 916-564-8683, Fax: 916-564-7895 Cell: 916-716-1740 www.timestructures.com _____ From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 8:08 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Google, GPS and "We know where you are." Well, according to this slashdot: http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/23/196229 which points to this Washington Post article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/22/AR2007112201 444_pf.html the feds have been routinely asking for and getting real time cell tower tracking information from your phone provider, even though it runs counter to DoJ guidelines. So that's with access to the cell phone infrastructure but it's roughly the same information that GoogleMaps is using to locate your phone without GPS. As for bugging your phone, sure, it would be no problem to write a small program which ran on your Treo, woke up regularly, checked the cell id's on the closest towers, and SMS'ed that information to someone who was interested. You might notice the extra interference on your car FM radio if you have a GSM phone, you might notice the SMS charges on your phone bill, or you might walk around announcing your location until the phone broke. But the pings, the handshakes with the cell towers, are infrastructural, they're your phone's business and the phone company's business, and they only go further if your phone or your phone company explicitly shares them. The precision depends on the density of the towers and how well the intersecting sectors have been mapped by GPS phones. While GMaps is active on the phone, it's reading out the id's for the nearest tower/cells and the signal strength for each id. If the phone has GPS, it sends the cell id's/signal strength and the GPS location to mother google for her world map. If the phone has no GPS, it just sends the cell id's/signal strength to mother google. She checks her map and sends back an estimated location and error. That it's not working around Santa Fe probably means that there aren't many, or any, GPS enabled phones running GoogleMaps and reporting actual locations around these parts. But Google can't ping your phone, it's your phone that pings the towers to maintain its connectivity. And Google only collects the tower id/signal strength/location information, because collecting identities would be evil, not to mention hideously expensive given that there is one cell phone for every two people on earth as of last thursday: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/11/29/213245 -- rec -- On Dec 3, 2007 1:10 AM, Tom Johnson < tom at jtjohnson.com> wrote: Colleagues: In recent days, Google announced the beta of some software for a GPS-equipped mobile phones. See http://tinyurl.com/yrvfo3 The way it works is by picking up a signal from cell towers, it indicates the phone's location with a blue dot on Google's Mobil Maps. (For what it's worth, I have Google Mobile Maps on my Treo 650, but I have yet to get this version to work.) Here's my question: Would it be possible for the Google mothership to do the equivalent of "pinging" my phone number, not to make a call but to see if (a) the phone is on and if so (b) where is that phone? The phone wouldn't ring, so the user would have no idea he/she is being geo-located. I assume that if Google could do that, those phone numbers and geocodes could easily become a data base appropriate for some interesting data mining, both as a static bit of insight and if done, say, every hour, whew. What a rich pile of insight for all sorts of people, businesses and survey agencies. Putting aside issues of a person's privacy, just the collective data about where that particular phone is going -- forget who owns it -- would be rather amazing and useful to some. So, back to the questions: 1) Would those pings of a phone be possible? 2) Would the results reflect location and movement of that phone down to what degree of distance today? Are we talking meters or kilometers or ???? 3) And if Google wasn't doing the pinging, could anyone who had my phone number track my location and/or distance from any originating dialing point/server? Thanks, Tom Johnson -- ========================================== J. T. Johnson Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA www.analyticjournalism.com 505.577.6482 (c) 505.473.9646(h) http://www.jtjohnson.com tom at jtjohnson.com "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." -- Buckminster Fuller ========================================== ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20071203/f2ce9b88/attachment.html |
Google, GPS and "We know where you are."
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Administrator
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In reply to this post by Tom Johnson
On Dec 3, 2007, at 1:10 AM, Tom Johnson wrote:
> <snip> > (For what it's > worth, I have Google Mobile Maps on my Treo 650, but I have yet to > get this > version to work.) > </snip> Tom: http://tinyurl.com/29gywp Google hasn't yet released MyLocation for Treos. The reason is likely that the Java midlet version was more important .. most not- quite-smart phones support it. Note it doesn't mention iPhones which also have a custom version of Google Maps. Nokia is on board because they have such a huge part of the European market, and WinMob here in the US. -- Owen |
Google, GPS and "We know where you are."
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In reply to this post by Tom Johnson
Speaking primarily from ignorance, it seems Google is using the
infrastructure available for 911 calls today. A cell phone call to 911 currently identifies only the quadrant of the call. The next generation 911 will use the phone's GPS coordinates but it is in rollout today. All of which makes me wonder whether the Google announcement isn't more marketing than substance for the moment-- although Google may be able to access the GPS info sooner than the 911 centers since it has more resources. Based on the video in your link, I'm inclined to believe they're using the quadrant info and some guessing software. In a city, the guesses would be more accurate as there are more towers. In NM, they're not likely ti ID you w/i 1000 feet as the Flash flic says. -d- On Dec 3, 2007, at 1:10 AM, Tom Johnson wrote: > Colleagues: > > In recent days, Google announced the beta of some software for a GPS- > equipped mobile phones. See http://tinyurl.com/yrvfo3 > The way it works is by picking up a signal from cell towers, it > indicates the phone's location with a blue dot on Google's Mobil > Maps. (For what it's worth, I have Google Mobile Maps on my Treo > 650, but I have yet to get this version to work.) > > Here's my question: > > Would it be possible for the Google mothership to do the equivalent > of "pinging" my phone number, not to make a call but to see if (a) > the phone is on and if so (b) where is that phone? The phone > wouldn't ring, so the user would have no idea he/she is being geo- > located. I assume that if Google could do that, those phone numbers > and geocodes could easily become a data base appropriate for some > interesting data mining, both as a static bit of insight and if > done, say, every hour, whew. What a rich pile of insight for all > sorts of people, businesses and survey agencies. Putting aside > issues of a person's privacy, just the collective data about where > that particular phone is going -- forget who owns it -- would be > rather amazing and useful to some. > > So, back to the questions: > > 1) Would those pings of a phone be possible? > 2) Would the results reflect location and movement of that phone > down to what degree of distance today? Are we talking meters or > kilometers or ???? > 3) And if Google wasn't doing the pinging, could anyone who had my > phone number track my location and/or distance from any originating > dialing point/server? > > Thanks, > Tom Johnson > > -- > ========================================== > J. T. Johnson > Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA > www.analyticjournalism.com > 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h) > http://www.jtjohnson.com tom at jtjohnson.com > > "You never change things by fighting the existing reality. > To change something, build a new model that makes the > existing model obsolete." > -- Buckminster > Fuller > ========================================== > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20071204/6f418a97/attachment.html |
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