Go?
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Has anyone thought about applying ants or value net modeling or other
complexity-based techniques to Go? Carl Tollander [hidden email] (505) 660-5003 "The universe is full of magical things, patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper." - Eden Philpotts |
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I wrote a short, sort of hand-waving paper on Go and multi-agent
systems, with some other ideas thrown in for good measure. No ants or value nets, but might still be interesting. There's a PDF on my page at: http://www.redfish.com/dkunkle/#go -dan On Monday, May 19, 2003, at 11:51 America/Denver, Carl Tollander wrote: > Has anyone thought about applying ants or value net modeling or other > complexity-based techniques to Go? |
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In reply to this post by Friam mailing list
Interesting if you could do something effective, but:
Why would you think you could apply value net modeling to Go ? =20 How would you go about doing it ? (If this is too much to post, please let me know your ideas the next = time we coincide at a FRIAM meeting.) Joe Spinden -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf = Of Carl Tollander Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 2:51 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: [FRIAM] Go? *** May 23 meeting to be at Jane's Cafe *** *** map at http://www.redfish.com/friam *** Has anyone thought about applying ants or value net modeling or other complexity-based techniques to Go? Carl Tollander [hidden email] (505) 660-5003 "The universe is full of magical things,=20 patiently waiting for our wits to grow=20 sharper." - Eden Philpotts =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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Joe - I'm just messing around right now, but while reconditioning
my swamp cooler this last weekend I had this imagery about Go stones as functors and ants building up connections between them. There's also some stuff about one-to-many mappings between topology and geometry (the Go board) and genetic search for combinations of stones that the ants would like. I was thinking the ant-constructed topologies would be kind of like value nets, thus the questions. Some of these elements are part of Another Project; it just suddenly seemed that Go would be an accessible metaphor to combat the otherwise high paradigmicity. (and St Johns has a Go club so there would be local domain expertise). carl -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of joseph spinden Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 1:08 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Go? *** May 23 meeting to be at Jane's Cafe *** *** map at http://www.redfish.com/friam *** Interesting if you could do something effective, but: Why would you think you could apply value net modeling to Go ? How would you go about doing it ? (If this is too much to post, please let me know your ideas the next time we coincide at a FRIAM meeting.) Joe Spinden -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Carl Tollander Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 2:51 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: [FRIAM] Go? *** May 23 meeting to be at Jane's Cafe *** *** map at http://www.redfish.com/friam *** Has anyone thought about applying ants or value net modeling or other complexity-based techniques to Go? Carl Tollander [hidden email] (505) 660-5003 "The universe is full of magical things, patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper." - Eden Philpotts ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com =================== FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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I am a member of the Go club (although I am one of the weaker members), =
& so I have some expertise. =20 I am not quite sure what you mean by Go as an "accessible metaphor". Metaphor for what ? If when you say you would like "an accessible metaphor to combat the otherwise high paradigmicity" you mean you would like a simple, concrete example instance, then I think that is a great idea. I am all in favor = of simple, concrete examples. =20 However, I do not think Go is necessarily an appropriate simple example. = =20 In part because the rules are (deceptively ?) simple, the state space is very large, so a high degree of expert pattern recognition is essential; = I do not think that is so well understood that it is so easily codified. = In fact, I suspect most business applications are significantly simpler. =20 Still, if you or anyone else in the group should decide to go ahead with such a project, I will follow it with interest. Joe -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf = Of Carl Tollander Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 5:44 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Go? *** May 23 meeting to be at Jane's Cafe *** *** map at http://www.redfish.com/friam *** Joe - I'm just messing around right now, but while reconditioning my swamp cooler this last weekend I had this imagery about Go stones as functors and ants building up connections between them. There's also some stuff about one-to-many mappings between topology and geometry (the Go board) and genetic search for combinations of stones that the ants would like. I was thinking the ant-constructed topologies would be kind of like value nets, thus the questions. Some of these elements are part of Another Project; it just suddenly seemed that Go would be an accessible metaphor to combat the otherwise = high paradigmicity. (and St Johns has a Go club so there would be local domain expertise). carl -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of joseph spinden Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 1:08 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Go? *** May 23 meeting to be at Jane's Cafe *** *** map at http://www.redfish.com/friam *** Interesting if you could do something effective, but: Why would you think you could apply value net modeling to Go ? How would you go about doing it ? (If this is too much to post, please let me know your ideas the next = time we coincide at a FRIAM meeting.) Joe Spinden -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf = Of Carl Tollander Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 2:51 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: [FRIAM] Go? *** May 23 meeting to be at Jane's Cafe *** *** map at http://www.redfish.com/friam *** Has anyone thought about applying ants or value net modeling or other complexity-based techniques to Go? Carl Tollander [hidden email] (505) 660-5003 "The universe is full of magical things, patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper." - Eden Philpotts =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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http://www.britgo.org/gopcres/playit.html
Has some information on go playing computers and programs. You might start digging there. Aug 1, 2002, NYT had an article on the state of the art in go playing programs. In an Ancient Game, Computing's Future by Katie Hafner If I remember it, there was some description of the AI techniques used, but no mention of Ants or value net modeling that I recall. She does mention that such programs are in there infancy with respect to their relative strength to humans. They are at about the strongest 1980 level chess programs (laughable) -- namely very weak with respect to the strongest human players. Any large improvements would probably be quite interesting. John joseph spinden wrote: > *** May 23 meeting to be at Jane's Cafe *** > *** map at http://www.redfish.com/friam *** > > I am a member of the Go club (although I am one of the weaker members), & so > I have some expertise. > > I am not quite sure what you mean by Go as an "accessible metaphor". > Metaphor for what ? > > If when you say you would like "an accessible metaphor to combat the > otherwise high paradigmicity" you mean you would like a simple, concrete > example instance, then I think that is a great idea. I am all in favor of > simple, concrete examples. > > However, I do not think Go is necessarily an appropriate simple example. > In part because the rules are (deceptively ?) simple, the state space is > very large, so a high degree of expert pattern recognition is essential; I > do not think that is so well understood that it is so easily codified. In > fact, I suspect most business applications are significantly simpler. > > Still, if you or anyone else in the group should decide to go ahead with > such a project, I will follow it with interest. > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > Carl Tollander > Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 5:44 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Go? > > *** May 23 meeting to be at Jane's Cafe *** > *** map at http://www.redfish.com/friam *** > > Joe - I'm just messing around right now, but while reconditioning > my swamp cooler this last weekend I had this imagery about > Go stones as functors and ants building up connections between them. > There's also some stuff about one-to-many mappings between topology > and geometry (the Go board) and genetic search for combinations of > stones that the ants would like. I was thinking the ant-constructed > topologies would be kind of like value nets, thus the questions. > > Some of these elements are part of Another Project; it just suddenly > seemed that Go would be an accessible metaphor to combat the otherwise high > paradigmicity. (and St Johns has a Go club so there would be local > domain expertise). > > carl > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf > Of joseph spinden > Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 1:08 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Go? > > *** May 23 meeting to be at Jane's Cafe *** > *** map at http://www.redfish.com/friam *** > > Interesting if you could do something effective, but: > > Why would you think you could apply value net modeling to Go ? > > How would you go about doing it ? > > (If this is too much to post, please let me know your ideas the next time we > coincide at a FRIAM meeting.) > > Joe Spinden > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of > Carl Tollander > Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 2:51 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: [FRIAM] Go? > > *** May 23 meeting to be at Jane's Cafe *** > *** map at http://www.redfish.com/friam *** > > Has anyone thought about applying ants or value net modeling or other > complexity-based techniques to Go? > > Carl Tollander > [hidden email] > (505) 660-5003 > > "The universe is full of magical things, > patiently waiting for our wits to grow > sharper." - Eden Philpotts > > ========================================================= > FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv > Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe > Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: > http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > =================== > FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv > Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe > Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: > http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > ========================================================= > FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv > Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe > Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: > http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > ========================================================= > FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv > Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe > Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: > http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com -- Mesa Analytics & Computing 505-983-3449 Phone 509-472-8131 Fax [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Friam mailing list
I bet I'm the worst Go player in the group. The idea was to use Go
as a thought experiment to help organize some thinking about how several "complexity-based techniques" could interact. The process would probably be anything but simple or concrete, but it might be fun. The object wouldn't be to make a machine to play the game, but to represent and recognize some of what goes on during Go play. Carl Tollander [hidden email] (505) 660-5003 -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of joseph spinden Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 5:26 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Go? *** May 23 meeting to be at Jane's Cafe *** *** map at http://www.redfish.com/friam *** I am a member of the Go club (although I am one of the weaker members), & so I have some expertise. I am not quite sure what you mean by Go as an "accessible metaphor". Metaphor for what ? If when you say you would like "an accessible metaphor to combat the otherwise high paradigmicity" you mean you would like a simple, concrete example instance, then I think that is a great idea. I am all in favor of simple, concrete examples. However, I do not think Go is necessarily an appropriate simple example. In part because the rules are (deceptively ?) simple, the state space is very large, so a high degree of expert pattern recognition is essential; I do not think that is so well understood that it is so easily codified. In fact, I suspect most business applications are significantly simpler. Still, if you or anyone else in the group should decide to go ahead with such a project, I will follow it with interest. Joe -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Carl Tollander Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 5:44 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Go? *** May 23 meeting to be at Jane's Cafe *** *** map at http://www.redfish.com/friam *** Joe - I'm just messing around right now, but while reconditioning my swamp cooler this last weekend I had this imagery about Go stones as functors and ants building up connections between them. There's also some stuff about one-to-many mappings between topology and geometry (the Go board) and genetic search for combinations of stones that the ants would like. I was thinking the ant-constructed topologies would be kind of like value nets, thus the questions. Some of these elements are part of Another Project; it just suddenly seemed that Go would be an accessible metaphor to combat the otherwise high paradigmicity. (and St Johns has a Go club so there would be local domain expertise). carl -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of joseph spinden Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 1:08 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Go? *** May 23 meeting to be at Jane's Cafe *** *** map at http://www.redfish.com/friam *** Interesting if you could do something effective, but: Why would you think you could apply value net modeling to Go ? How would you go about doing it ? (If this is too much to post, please let me know your ideas the next time we coincide at a FRIAM meeting.) Joe Spinden -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Carl Tollander Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 2:51 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: [FRIAM] Go? *** May 23 meeting to be at Jane's Cafe *** *** map at http://www.redfish.com/friam *** Has anyone thought about applying ants or value net modeling or other complexity-based techniques to Go? Carl Tollander [hidden email] (505) 660-5003 "The universe is full of magical things, patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper." - Eden Philpotts ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com =================== FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com =================== FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Jane's Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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