Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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That diversity means that any (given) introvert may well respect the idea that a low-dimensional connection is at least a connection of some sort, allowing them to choose whether or not another person is a member of some class (e.g. "elites") or not. Hence the know-nothings that are encouraging the introvert to at least make _some_ connection, however vapid, are helping them make decisions and navigate the world. If nothing else, the introvert should learn enough to manipulate people to get them to leave the room, with no hard feelings on the part of the manipulated. >8^D On 01/27/2017 01:08 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Some introverts seek strong connections to tight network of friends (a preference for actual similarity or well-understood differences), some might look at others fearfully and be concerned with predictability or loyalty, others don't like tribes and object to the behavior of finding common subspaces of similarity, others want to negotiate principles or third parties that govern how, why, and when people interact. There are lots of ways to have the property of being an introvert just as there are lots of ways to be an extrovert. -- ☣ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
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Re: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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In reply to this post by gepr
Sorry, but Trump is not an introvert. It's true that introversion can be caused by extrovert-like impulses. But Trump is a narcissist. I thought I had sent enough evidence. Frsnk Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 27, 2017 1:43 PM, "gepr" <[hidden email]> wrote: Heh, I shoulda known you wouldn't let that slide. You're right. But any introvert that wants to contribute and the only way to contribute is to get past the vapid (but very real) barriers must be capable of establishing that thin similarity _before_ dialing it back and refining the dissimilarities. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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In reply to this post by gepr
Some of the most nuanced, useful analyses of people I get from other introverts. I mean, there's a difference between interacting in a particular familiar way, and sitting in the back of the class, meeting room, etc. watching, and making sense of what you see.
-----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 2:38 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software That diversity means that any (given) introvert may well respect the idea that a low-dimensional connection is at least a connection of some sort, allowing them to choose whether or not another person is a member of some class (e.g. "elites") or not. Hence the know-nothings that are encouraging the introvert to at least make _some_ connection, however vapid, are helping them make decisions and navigate the world. If nothing else, the introvert should learn enough to manipulate people to get them to leave the room, with no hard feelings on the part of the manipulated. >8^D On 01/27/2017 01:08 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Some introverts seek strong connections to tight network of friends (a preference for actual similarity or well-understood differences), some might look at others fearfully and be concerned with predictability or loyalty, others don't like tribes and object to the behavior of finding common subspaces of similarity, others want to negotiate principles or third parties that govern how, why, and when people interact. There are lots of ways to have the property of being an introvert just as there are lots of ways to be an extrovert. -- ☣ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2
No. It seemed to me that you quit the conversation. Of course, I can't be sure you got my last message. But I left off challenging the (especially remote) diagnosis of NPD as purely phenomenological (type 2). And given Nick's idea that recursive explanations are fundamentally different from flat ones, I also provided a rather detailed challenge to that.
So, it seems to me that Trump's learned behavior (pre military school, but by some accounts even in college) may easily be a consequence of learning how to _deal_ with his introverted nature, especially in the context of an overbearing father. The primary aspect of what I see about Trump is that he's compensating for deep insecurities. Perhaps deep insecurities can percolate out to exhibit as introvertedness or narcissism, especially since the entire process of diagnosis is solely phenomenological. But I readily admit my ignorance and would love to learn how I'm wrong. On 01/27/2017 01:43 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Sorry, but Trump is not an introvert. It's true that introversion can be caused by extrovert-like impulses. But Trump is a narcissist. I thought I had sent enough evidence. -- ☣ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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Well, this isn't physics or math so any assertion is ambiguous, complicated and uncertain. But...Introversion is often caused by grandiose or exhibitionistic impulses. Once I saw a TV interview in which Barbra Streisand claimed to be a shy introvert. (That's the correct spelling of her name). To the extent that I understand it, and very oversimplified, Narcissistic Personality Disorder is caused by failure of the parents to validate a child's authentic self. For instance, imagine a three year-old's mother says, "He's a ladies' man like his daddy". First, he's not a man and the only lady he cares about is his mommy. He feels lonely, empty, and much dissonance between what he is and what his parent(s) say(s) he is. Disclaimer: I read a handful of books on this and related topics. I took one course at the Pittsburgh Psychoanalytic Institute on "Psychoanalysis and Literature". I had many conversations with residents, psychiatrists, and psychoanalysts when I worked in the Research Center in Child Psychiatry at the University of Pittsburgh. This is far from being educated in the field. Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 27, 2017 3:00 PM, "glen ☣" <[hidden email]> wrote: No. It seemed to me that you quit the conversation. Of course, I can't be sure you got my last message. But I left off challenging the (especially remote) diagnosis of NPD as purely phenomenological (type 2). And given Nick's idea that recursive explanations are fundamentally different from flat ones, I also provided a rather detailed challenge to that. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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In reply to this post by gepr
p.s. I showed my wife, who was a therapist and mental health counselor for many years, a bit of this discussion she says that you are correct, Glen, in that you can't be a NPD sufferer without being insecure. Their behavior is symptomatic of this. "I know more about ISIS than the Generals! Believe me!" He couldn't possible believe that.
Frank Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505 [hidden email] [hidden email] Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918 -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 3:00 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software No. It seemed to me that you quit the conversation. Of course, I can't be sure you got my last message. But I left off challenging the (especially remote) diagnosis of NPD as purely phenomenological (type 2). And given Nick's idea that recursive explanations are fundamentally different from flat ones, I also provided a rather detailed challenge to that. So, it seems to me that Trump's learned behavior (pre military school, but by some accounts even in college) may easily be a consequence of learning how to _deal_ with his introverted nature, especially in the context of an overbearing father. The primary aspect of what I see about Trump is that he's compensating for deep insecurities. Perhaps deep insecurities can percolate out to exhibit as introvertedness or narcissism, especially since the entire process of diagnosis is solely phenomenological. But I readily admit my ignorance and would love to learn how I'm wrong. On 01/27/2017 01:43 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Sorry, but Trump is not an introvert. It's true that introversion can be caused by extrovert-like impulses. But Trump is a narcissist. I thought I had sent enough evidence. -- ☣ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2
“Introversion is often caused by grandiose or exhibitionistic impulses.” For me, I would not say it is not self-inhibition, to, say, stay out of trouble.
A simple explanation, like dopamine response sounds right.
http://www.medicaldaily.com/brain-introvert-compared-extrovert-are-they-really-different-299064 After a morning of meetings, or even just one, I’m overloaded with distracting unconnected but enduring signals. Processing garbage that is of little interest
me and with little consequence. However, I can adapt over to extrovert mode – “pretend to be a manager” mode -- and function that way, provided I don’t have any expectation of accomplishing anything that requires careful linear thinking. It’s a (too) slow
ramping process to get back into introvert mode. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2
Right, it's fine for us to be talking about ambiguous concepts... in fact, I'd argue those are the things that need the most discussion. Just for context, since I'm still waiting for my hepatocyte culture simulation to finish, I took this test: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/23-signs-youe28099re-secretly-a-narcissist-masquerading-as-a-sensitive-introvert/ I got a 67 ... of course, that's probably biased since I'm taking the test in the context of this conversation. But what's amazing to me is my ability to doubt myself while remaining confident in my doubt of other things. The best question was: "___ I tend to feel humiliated when criticized." This reminds me of the reappropriation of negative labels. I can't help but wonder what mechanisms (deeply) insecure people have developed to handle negative circumstances. And that reminds me of this article, which I thought was fantastic: An open letter to Milo Yiannopoulos http://www.dailycal.org/2017/01/17/open-letter-milo-yiannopoulos/ I think most people are hurt by criticism of any kind. But what matters is not that you're hurt by it. What matters is how you _respond_. And how you respond also happens to be how we diagnose personality disorders. It seems less about how the incoming information impinges on you and much more about how you respond, what your rearing taught you to do. On 01/27/2017 02:20 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Well, this isn't physics or math so any assertion is ambiguous, complicated and uncertain. But...Introversion is often caused by grandiose or exhibitionistic impulses. Once I saw a TV interview in which Barbra Streisand claimed to be a shy introvert. (That's the correct spelling of her name). To the extent that I understand it, and very oversimplified, Narcissistic Personality Disorder is caused by failure of the parents to validate a child's authentic self. For instance, imagine a three year-old's mother says, "He's a ladies' man like his daddy". First, he's not a man and the only lady he cares about is his mommy. He feels lonely, empty, and much dissonance between what he is and what his parent(s) say(s) he is. > > Disclaimer: I read a handful of books on this and related topics. I took one course at the Pittsburgh Psychoanalytic Institute on "Psychoanalysis and Literature". I had many conversations with residents, psychiatrists, and psychoanalysts when I worked in the Research Center in Child Psychiatry at the University of Pittsburgh. This is far from being educated in the field. -- ☣ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
OK. I'm sure everyone's tired of my emails by now (and my sim's almost finished). So this is the last for today. I have to consider what you say below in the context of the "manipulationist" conception of causality. You can't sit in the back fo the class watching and making sense. By manipulationism, you must measure, interfere, and measure again in order to claim any sort of soundness. Of course, you may not have to do the manipulating directly. A good team of people, some of which enjoy interfering (extroverts) combined with some who enjoy only the data reduction and analysis ... along with a few "gatekeepers" who can do a little of both ... is ideal. On 01/27/2017 01:46 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Some of the most nuanced, useful analyses of people I get from other introverts. I mean, there's a difference between interacting in a particular familiar way, and sitting in the back of the class, meeting room, etc. watching, and making sense of what you see. -- ☣ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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In reply to this post by gepr
In her book "Neurosis and Human Growth", Karen Horney (Horn-Eye) has chapters on "the self-effacing solution" and "the expansive solution". Both solutions are responses to unconscious, neurotic conflicts. The self-effacing version is introversion-like and the expansive version is extroversion-like. In other words, extroversion and introversion can be caused by similar conflicts.
Frank Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505 [hidden email] [hidden email] Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918 -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 3:51 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software Right, it's fine for us to be talking about ambiguous concepts... in fact, I'd argue those are the things that need the most discussion. Just for context, since I'm still waiting for my hepatocyte culture simulation to finish, I took this test: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/23-signs-youe28099re-secretly-a-narcissist-masquerading-as-a-sensitive-introvert/ I got a 67 ... of course, that's probably biased since I'm taking the test in the context of this conversation. But what's amazing to me is my ability to doubt myself while remaining confident in my doubt of other things. The best question was: "___ I tend to feel humiliated when criticized." This reminds me of the reappropriation of negative labels. I can't help but wonder what mechanisms (deeply) insecure people have developed to handle negative circumstances. And that reminds me of this article, which I thought was fantastic: An open letter to Milo Yiannopoulos http://www.dailycal.org/2017/01/17/open-letter-milo-yiannopoulos/ I think most people are hurt by criticism of any kind. But what matters is not that you're hurt by it. What matters is how you _respond_. And how you respond also happens to be how we diagnose personality disorders. It seems less about how the incoming information impinges on you and much more about how you respond, what your rearing taught you to do. On 01/27/2017 02:20 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Well, this isn't physics or math so any assertion is ambiguous, complicated and uncertain. But...Introversion is often caused by grandiose or exhibitionistic impulses. Once I saw a TV interview in which Barbra Streisand claimed to be a shy introvert. (That's the correct spelling of her name). To the extent that I understand it, and very oversimplified, Narcissistic Personality Disorder is caused by failure of the parents to validate a child's authentic self. For instance, imagine a three year-old's mother says, "He's a ladies' man like his daddy". First, he's not a man and the only lady he cares about is his mommy. He feels lonely, empty, and much dissonance between what he is and what his parent(s) say(s) he is. > > Disclaimer: I read a handful of books on this and related topics. I took one course at the Pittsburgh Psychoanalytic Institute on "Psychoanalysis and Literature". I had many conversations with residents, psychiatrists, and psychoanalysts when I worked in the Research Center in Child Psychiatry at the University of Pittsburgh. This is far from being educated in the field. -- ☣ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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For What It's Worth as I understand it: -It's a spectrum. -Someone can have aspects of both. -How someone recharges is offten a clue what end of this spectrum they're on. For example someone that talks a lot and then feels recharged has some extrovert tendencies. However -Making matters worse is someone on theDyslexic and or Autism SpectrumS can seem like Extrovert/Intervert (See also many of silicon vallies very clever people) - -The sunset is very pretty and beer is good so is Legends of Tomorrow. -Is it spring yet? -Haven't we given ThatPerson what their neursis needs? On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 4:11 PM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote: In her book "Neurosis and Human Growth", Karen Horney (Horn-Eye) has chapters on "the self-effacing solution" and "the expansive solution". Both solutions are responses to unconscious, neurotic conflicts. The self-effacing version is introversion-like and the expansive version is extroversion-like. In other words, extroversion and introversion can be caused by similar conflicts. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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In reply to this post by gepr
Take the test and imagine what Trump would answer if he were being honest.
Frank Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505 [hidden email] [hidden email] Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918 -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: Friday, January 27, 2017 3:51 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software Right, it's fine for us to be talking about ambiguous concepts... in fact, I'd argue those are the things that need the most discussion. Just for context, since I'm still waiting for my hepatocyte culture simulation to finish, I took this test: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/23-signs-youe28099re-secretly-a-narcissist-masquerading-as-a-sensitive-introvert/ I got a 67 ... of course, that's probably biased since I'm taking the test in the context of this conversation. But what's amazing to me is my ability to doubt myself while remaining confident in my doubt of other things. The best question was: "___ I tend to feel humiliated when criticized." This reminds me of the reappropriation of negative labels. I can't help but wonder what mechanisms (deeply) insecure people have developed to handle negative circumstances. And that reminds me of this article, which I thought was fantastic: An open letter to Milo Yiannopoulos http://www.dailycal.org/2017/01/17/open-letter-milo-yiannopoulos/ I think most people are hurt by criticism of any kind. But what matters is not that you're hurt by it. What matters is how you _respond_. And how you respond also happens to be how we diagnose personality disorders. It seems less about how the incoming information impinges on you and much more about how you respond, what your rearing taught you to do. On 01/27/2017 02:20 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Well, this isn't physics or math so any assertion is ambiguous, complicated and uncertain. But...Introversion is often caused by grandiose or exhibitionistic impulses. Once I saw a TV interview in which Barbra Streisand claimed to be a shy introvert. (That's the correct spelling of her name). To the extent that I understand it, and very oversimplified, Narcissistic Personality Disorder is caused by failure of the parents to validate a child's authentic self. For instance, imagine a three year-old's mother says, "He's a ladies' man like his daddy". First, he's not a man and the only lady he cares about is his mommy. He feels lonely, empty, and much dissonance between what he is and what his parent(s) say(s) he is. > > Disclaimer: I read a handful of books on this and related topics. I took one course at the Pittsburgh Psychoanalytic Institute on "Psychoanalysis and Literature". I had many conversations with residents, psychiatrists, and psychoanalysts when I worked in the Research Center in Child Psychiatry at the University of Pittsburgh. This is far from being educated in the field. -- ☣ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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In reply to this post by gepr
To Glen and Marcus,
Not so fast gentlemen. You managed to pull apart a few strands using tried assumptions. The Alpha is the most conspicuous personality type commonly encountered in smallish sample sizes, <10,000 individuals. Once when lounging about in the grad students lounge a group of nauseating younger students barged in and claimed that I was an Alpha male. Then I probably swore and claimed they were speaking nonsense. Then another male grad student entered and he was a star football player. They claimed he was also an Alpha. That is when he finally spoke up and asked which of us they ranked higher. They replied the star , of course. Then he replied that was imbecilic since none of them had ever seen me strike. They listened close as he explained, my entire family were freakishly fast and lanky and even my baby brother could overwhelm him in an arm wrestling contest. He compared us to kicking horses. I was so drunk that very night it was news to me. He explained that Alphas have a need to be recognized but there were other personalities far more dangerous and Alphas avoided them. He summed up his speech by swearing that he never wanted to ever piss any of us off. I thought about this only again after being accused of being a pacifist. My brothers and I all rode nasty motorcycles with awesome Barnette Clutches before hydraulic assist. Great arm exercise. Besides I had to walk on crutches for nearly two years and that only added to my inherent grumpiness. Our varsity boxing team never drew much of an audience during the hippie-era. So I cause confusion only because I do not fit into any well established classification system. I bring this up because my experience in life defies most systems which you are attempting to tease apart. Trump may well be a Narcissist and deluded in some traditional manner. That only suggests he will make a mistake and run into someone he has no idea even exists. That would make for a great mess and possibly a great waste of lives. There may well be someone within his comfort zone right now that could destroy him as easily as pushing the send button. Putin is far more than a boogey-man and his moral compass is largely indecipherable. Trump does not understand that Hunters are waiting high up in the trees. Trump is just bait for now. However, this discussion is fascinating, already you are in agreement about the transitory nature of the Elites and Glen is actually employing a form of shadow deduction process to determine what they are and are not. This reminds me of Lenin's attempt to define the bourgeoisie classes He used accusations and insinuations to expose them and they proclaimed their innocence up to their executions. Stalin then invented 'the show trial' to extract forced confessions before execution. In both cases present and past the accused never willingly admitted their guilt. Which leads me to ask if they may be possible scape goats serving a complex social function. Perhaps I can add two or more defining characteristics, these ephemeral elites also believe they are speaking the truth and demand that the audience also believes. This is what I call "the evangelical personality." Secondly they also believe that they are never responsible for unforeseen outcomes. They invent rationalizations after a calamity to exonerate themselves. "The saintly fool personality" Third they accuse someone, very publicly, announcing and justifying their subsequent actions before acting. I guess these observations don't narrow down the field very much for any of us. "The righteously angry personality" I guess the fourth factor is that they never admit they screwed up, ever. "The good but stupid soldier" I thought Beta's sucked up to Alphas on a regular basis like cheerleaders. So now we have 7 characteristics. Not bad for a start. But suspect there are a lot of amateurs in the grouping. It reminds me of an old adage, never tell a Slav you will kill him, even in jest. He will believe you are telling the truth and strike first. They have different rules. America casually throws around too many poorly veiled threats. Trump is a very noisy bleating bait goat right now and he should hold his tongue for now. Those Turkish NATO allies are acting like whores cozying up to Russia right now. The Turks think they can resurrect the Ottoman Empire. I suspect Putin wishes to erode NATO unity and dismember it totally. Obama created an uncomfortable noose around Russia. So expect him to shrug it off. Why on earth are the Syrian peace talks being held in Kazakhstan, since the Turks think they originally came from that area from their own mythology. Are the Russians going to sucker Turkey into a provocation so that they reoccupy the Bosphorus again. The Russians are very good at setting up a fall guy. Besides them who else can claim to have smashed so many empires. Glad you guys noticed Frauke Petra, this is the careful way the Skinheads are moving into legitimacy. She knows exactly what she is doing. A right wing Germany will scare Russia more than anything else. Not again I hope. I guess this is the ugly face of populism. If the Russians want to dismantle NATO then they should focus on Germany next which would cripple NATO. vib -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: January-27-17 1:37 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software OK, maybe. But I think that type, that can't be "persuaded" [*] based on low-dimensional similarity and familiarity, has very few members. The real problem is establishing the similarity and familiarity. H Clinton was not very good at it. B Clinton was. And even when confronting an ideologically empowered alpha, it's trivial to establish similarity and familiarity by adopting alpha traits. You simply slap them on the back for being alpha. Tell them you're just like they are, that you will fight as a soldier or a general for what you believe because that's the way _we_ SHOULD be. Even though you're in opposite corners of the ring, you can still establish similarity and familiarity with your opponent. In fact, it's trivially easy to do with alphas. Betas are more difficult. Regardless, your right that my defined-by-indefiniteness is not adequate to cover the problem you're raising. Although concreteness is necessary for recategorizing an "elite" out of the class, it's not sufficient. You have to actively demonstrate. Perhaps this is why wonky introverts don't make good politicians, whereas back-slapping morons get elected all the time. Perhaps the more powerful defining quality of "elites" is the standoffishness, aloofness, where every smile looks like a smirk, and when you try to pat them on the back, they recoil in horror. 8^) That's personal for me because I don't like to be touched. And my dad tried to convince me that when you shake people's hand, you should _crush_ them ... unless they're female of course. [sigh] The "elite" use big words and their sentences require parsing. If that's the case, then it's also a matter of hermeneutics and the occult. The more work you have to put in to see a return, to understand what's being said/done, the more likely the author/sender is an "elite". There's a sense that "elites" wear more/thicker/plaited masks than the regular Joe. Nice. So we now have 2 properties I can understand: indefiniteness and hermeneutical. Thanks. [*] In quotes because actual persuasion to agreement isn't needed. All that's needed is to begin thinking about the person concretely, not abstractly. You don't have to agree with Clinton's ideas in order to remove her from the fictitious "elite". On 01/27/2017 11:04 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > On CNN, Van Jones has this series "The Messy Truth", where he plays (kind of annoyingly) the liberal apologist. There's an interview with some coal mining folks from West Virginia talking about why they voted for Trump. One of the participants, in an earlier television appearance during the campaign, had asked Hillary Clinton about her "We're going to put a lot of coal miners out of business" remark. They don't show much of the original confrontation, but it wasn't clear if she actually had a chance to answer or took the opportunity. All that is shown is that it was awkward. Is there any heartfelt and reasoned answer that she could have given that would be more compelling than just eating hot dogs and drinking beer? There is type of person that can be persuaded based on low-dimensional similarity and feelings of familiarity. However, in my experience, there are also a few alphas in every blue-collar community like this that are trying to show they in charge. This guy picked a fight in that setting because that's his place in his world, and it is important that his world stay small. -- ☣ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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Vladimyr writes:
< So I cause confusion only because I do not fit into any well established classification system. I bring this up because my experience in life defies most systems which you are attempting to tease apart. Trump may well be a Narcissist and deluded in some traditional manner. That only suggests he will make a mistake and run into someone he has no idea even exists. > One might imagine that people in a failing town would leave that town. Or that they'd give up on the city councils and school boards and instead focus on paying their bills and keeping their family together. But what can happen as governance disintegrates, is that a new species enters. I called that species an alpha, but you are right, it is a vague term. This person was *not* an alpha when things were going well, no, they were at the local tavern grousing about things with their other loser friends. It's only when things start to get untenable for the town does this creature decide it is safe to come out in the light. The creature seeks souls which can be captured. He may start with a desperate woman who has no hope for her life and takes her as a wife. Sometimes several creatures will rally together in order force out people that *are* making the local institutions work. And you guessed it, the people to force out are the snobs, know-it-alls, and (now) `elites'. And it is not unheard of that the creature manages to mature into the middle class and become a `respected' member of the community. They reproduce, and the cycle continues. Donald Trump and Steve Bannon intuitively understood these angry men and how to make them come out in the light. They all rely on fear and derangement and have no hope of maintaining power without making it proliferate. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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Marcus ,
You are quite correct and describe the Hitler type quite well. I never agreed with some of the Nuremberg trial conclusions that wished to attribute all the sins of Nazi Germany on a few maniacs. The truth was that the Germans knew quite well what was happening. The arrival of skinheads fascists brown shirts black shirts en masse presumes something is disturbingly out of whack in the modern world. Add to this the foolish lout who starts trouble when emboldened by the hysterical cries of his new girl friend. That is time to clear out before an irate man hitches his D9 bulldozer to the main structural post of a shabby drinking hole. When the German women of Cologne Germany claimed to have been groped in a New Year's crowd I expected serious violence, thankfully cooler heads prevailed. These type of Alpha males are just a minor part of the problem and will never start a revolt, that requires too much effort. When I was much younger I played around with this very boring but predictable type. I saw that others also tried to meddle with them for other reasons. but they were well protected. Hard to remove. They hung on to local power like ticks on a dog. They feed off of fools that believe. They gain trust only so they may betray others for a trifle. So today Chevrolet announced a factory in Canada was being shut down and moved to Mexico. That is not the way to make friends. I suppose there will be many hot heads emerging now. So we can assume NAFTA is now dead and awaiting only a funeral. GM probably arranged this just to spite Trump and cared nothing about friendship. Someone in GM thinks they can excuse this as a misunderstanding . They are starting a fire. they. GM. think they are protected but by who... That's the mystery. I suspect GM will throw someone under the bus. The mystery group is not going to expose itself at this point. I would not. It's too early. vib -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Sent: January-27-17 11:56 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software Vladimyr writes: < So I cause confusion only because I do not fit into any well established classification system. I bring this up because my experience in life defies most systems which you are attempting to tease apart. Trump may well be a Narcissist and deluded in some traditional manner. That only suggests he will make a mistake and run into someone he has no idea even exists. > One might imagine that people in a failing town would leave that town. Or that they'd give up on the city councils and school boards and instead focus on paying their bills and keeping their family together. But what can happen as governance disintegrates, is that a new species enters. I called that species an alpha, but you are right, it is a vague term. This person was *not* an alpha when things were going well, no, they were at the local tavern grousing about things with their other loser friends. It's only when things start to get untenable for the town does this creature decide it is safe to come out in the light. The creature seeks souls which can be captured. He may start with a desperate woman who has no hope for her life and takes her as a wife. Sometimes several creatures will rally together in order force out people that *are* making the local institutions work. And you guessed it, the people to force out are the snobs, know-it-alls, and (now) `elites'. And it is not unheard of that the creature manages to mature into the middle class and become a `respected' member of the community. They reproduce, and the cycle continues. Donald Trump and Steve Bannon intuitively understood these angry men and how to make them come out in the light. They all rely on fear and derangement and have no hope of maintaining power without making it proliferate. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Vladimyr Burachynsky
On 01/27/2017 08:34 PM, Vladimyr Burachynsky wrote:
> So I cause confusion only because I do not fit into any well established classification system. I bring this up because my experience in life defies > most systems which you are attempting to tease apart. Well, to be clear, I offered the idea that abstract categorizing is easily broken by concretizing the categorized. So, you're simply backing up what I was saying. In essence, the categories are artificial. Concretizing any particular person imputed to be a member of the class, will demonstrate they're not a member of the class. Hence, "elites" actually has measure 0, despite what the sloppy thinker thinks prior to trying to measure the class. > Perhaps I can add two or more defining characteristics, these ephemeral elites also believe they are speaking the truth and demand that the audience also believes. This is what I call > "the evangelical personality." > Secondly they also believe that they are never responsible for unforeseen outcomes. They invent rationalizations after a calamity to exonerate themselves. > "The saintly fool personality" > Third they accuse someone, very publicly, announcing and justifying their subsequent actions before acting. I guess these observations don't narrow down the field very much for any of us. > "The righteously angry personality" > I guess the fourth factor is that they never admit they screwed up, ever. > "The good but stupid soldier" > I thought Beta's sucked up to Alphas on a regular basis like cheerleaders. > So now we have 7 characteristics. Not bad for a start. But suspect there are a lot of amateurs in the grouping. Well, I count 6: 1. indefiniteness, 2. hermeneutics, 3. evangelizing, 4. negligent (saintly fool), 5. disciplinarian (you made me do it), and 6. abdicating. But what I was getting at with (1) and (2) was, I suppose, what is required within the head of the accuser. What are the characteristics of the way the accuser _thinks_ that results in them accusing some class of being "elite". Your (3-6) are traits that the accused might exhibit or the accuser might perceive. But they're not properties of the accuser's mind/thoughts. I set up my attempt to understand the accusers' minds, rather than attributes of the _accused_, because I believe the accusations are either TRIVIAL or FALSE. They're trivial because, as I said, we're all "elites" at something ... elite tooth brusher, elite seashell gatherer, etc. They're false because the classifications don't survive unless you choose a single well-defined predicate (like wealth or athletic achievement). So, the quesiton is: What type of mind accuses the "elites" of this or that. And the answer is: the type of mind that is prone to indefinite (schematic) thinking and an expectation of (or frustration with) hermeneutics. And those apply regardless of (3-6) or any other arbitrary descriptors of the alleged "elites". -- ☣ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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Glen,
I was thinking this was my own obsession only. But the mind of the accuser is repeatedly presenting itself as more important then any specific category. It runs through them all like a river. I recall someone wishing to learn how to build sailboats and that person thought I was born with such talents. Somehow I restrained myself at the idiocy of such a statement. As far as I knew all that I was born with was appetite and the uncontrollable instinct to void myself. Sailboats took 3 decades to master The leaky guts and pipes only two years. I started wondering why a man would attribute some extraordinary gift of birth to another and resent me for it. I have been accused of cheating at cards simply for having a memory of what was played and what was not. I have watched people after a big thunderous noise automatically assert that they did nothing, even before the least effort at analysis of what just happened. So the next action if it can be called that was to blame anyone near by and still deaf from the noise. These accusers are generally not very quick witted and unreliable. There are too many to fight at once so learn to duck. Personally I treat them as being defective and symbolic emotional thinkers. Perhaps these categories are misleading and what is going on is much more primitive, deeper into a kind of pre-social tribal mind set. Accessible only through fear. vib that was a useful exchange on a serious problem. But what intrigues me is how your letter ended up in my Junk folder. Lucky I found it. -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: January-30-17 6:01 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software On 01/27/2017 08:34 PM, Vladimyr Burachynsky wrote: > So I cause confusion only because I do not fit into any well > established classification system. I bring this up because my experience in life defies most systems which you are attempting to tease apart. Well, to be clear, I offered the idea that abstract categorizing is easily broken by concretizing the categorized. So, you're simply backing up what I was saying. In essence, the categories are artificial. Concretizing any particular person imputed to be a member of the class, will demonstrate they're not a member of the class. Hence, "elites" actually has measure 0, despite what the sloppy thinker thinks prior to trying to measure the class. > Perhaps I can add two or more defining characteristics, these ephemeral elites also believe they are speaking the truth and demand that the audience also believes. This is what I call > "the evangelical personality." > Secondly they also believe that they are never responsible for unforeseen outcomes. They invent rationalizations after a calamity to exonerate themselves. > "The saintly fool personality" > Third they accuse someone, very publicly, announcing and justifying their subsequent actions before acting. I guess these observations don't narrow down the field very much for any of us. > "The righteously angry personality" > I guess the fourth factor is that they never admit they screwed up, ever. > "The good but stupid soldier" > I thought Beta's sucked up to Alphas on a regular basis like cheerleaders. > So now we have 7 characteristics. Not bad for a start. But suspect there are a lot of amateurs in the grouping. Well, I count 6: 1. indefiniteness, 2. hermeneutics, 3. evangelizing, 4. negligent (saintly fool), 5. disciplinarian (you made me do it), and 6. abdicating. But what I was getting at with (1) and (2) was, I suppose, what is required within the head of the accuser. What are the characteristics of the way the accuser _thinks_ that results in them accusing some class of being "elite". Your (3-6) are traits that the accused might exhibit or the accuser might perceive. But they're not properties of the accuser's mind/thoughts. I set up my attempt to understand the accusers' minds, rather than attributes of the _accused_, because I believe the accusations are either TRIVIAL or FALSE. They're trivial because, as I said, we're all "elites" at something ... elite tooth brusher, elite seashell gatherer, etc. They're false because the classifications don't survive unless you choose a single well-defined predicate (like wealth or athletic achievement). So, the quesiton is: What type of mind accuses the "elites" of this or that. And the answer is: the type of mind that is prone to indefinite (schematic) thinking and an expectation of (or frustration with) hermeneutics. And those apply regardless of (3-6) or any other arbitrary descriptors of the alleged "elites". -- ☣ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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Administrator
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Does anyone have an opinion on the OP: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software .. which really is about that it's too late for populism, nationalism, isolationism to overcome what is already around us? We are far more global than we think we are. How many of us are bilingual at least? Look at your "digital day" and ask yourself just how, in so many ways, you've gone past ever going back. My original example surprised me when I discovered just how many global, non-US dominant open source software movements I'm involved in. My interest was in how many similar cases of globalism occur outside of my domain. So even though there are 10 (OP) huge forces against globalism, they simply cannot overcome where we are, we're past the tipping point. Certainly in software. And you? -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software
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Owen,
I think you are conflating projects that are feasible for college students or retired individuals with projects that are feasible for professionals. In industry,
some kinds of work products (and yes, software) are export-controlled and, whether or you sell them or not, you can be in big trouble if you share them with individuals in other countries. In government, you can’t just work non-governmental people unless
there are CRADAs in place, and working with other governments is even more touchy. The academic community is distributed across the globe, and there arguably less redundancy in expertise. Anyone that can be fired is especially vulnerable to government
policy. Or even Elon Musk: He’ll certainly need support from the government for a Mars colonization effort. Why else would he tolerate Trump for a second? Marcus From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]]
On Behalf Of Owen Densmore Does anyone have an opinion on the OP: Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software .. which really is about that it's too late for populism, nationalism, isolationism to overcome what is already around us? We are far more global than we think we are. How many of us are bilingual at least? Look at your "digital day" and ask yourself just how, in so many ways, you've gone past ever going back. My original example surprised me when I discovered just how many global, non-US dominant open source software movements I'm involved in. My interest was in how many similar cases
of globalism occur outside of my domain. So even though there are 10 (OP) huge forces against globalism, they simply cannot overcome where we are, we're past the tipping point. Certainly in software. And you? -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
Heh, your juxtaposition and question are ill-formed, which is why I tried to reach some clarity on what that article in the OP meant. Open source is at least in part a political movement with its own conception of "elites", spawning the various license types and long-running legal battles. To consider any sort of globalist implications solely from the myopic tools and tools communities mentality isn't useful. That would be like assuming the existence of worldwide sports like soccer or the Olympics will obviate war. Open source (and data and the larger "openly sourced" information) are just as susceptible to provincialism as democracies. And the mechanisms are the same, inflammatory accusations based on ill-defined classification systems (including the ones Marcus mentions about "munitions"). I've argued here on the list that with some open source tools, it literally does not matter whether they are open source or not because only a tiny handful of people on the planet are capable of reading them. E.g. cryptographic software used to be more "elite" than it is today. But it's still pretty obscure. And these elites stay elite (through their own work, social privilege, and gene-given attributes) because tech advances. You, Owen, are so extraordinarily privileged that you may not adequately realize the extent of it. Yes, for people like you, with your intellect, your hard work, etc., you will never be at risk for back-sliding into provincialism. Even if/when the US slides into a dark age, you can simply leave or get a job with the new dictator divining truth from the stars. But what about the huge swaths of us that live under things like poverty or opiate addiction? (Just to be clear, I'm in the same boat ... at least until I get brain damage from a motorcycle crash or my cancer transforms into a more aggressive kind.) We are global because we are elite. Just because we will be able to except ourselves from much of the back slide doesn't mean it can't happen. And the more vulnerable amongst us elite will definitely "go back". On 01/30/2017 07:32 PM, Owen Densmore wrote: > Does anyone have an opinion on the OP: > Globalism in the age of populism? .. & Open Source Software > > .. which really is about that it's too late for populism, nationalism, isolationism to overcome what is already around us? We are far more global than we think we are. > > How many of us are bilingual at least? Look at your "digital day" and ask yourself just how, in so many ways, you've gone past ever going back. > > My original example surprised me when I discovered just how many global, non-US dominant open source software movements I'm involved in. My interest was in how many similar cases of globalism occur outside of my domain. > > So even though there are 10 (OP) huge forces against globalism, they simply cannot overcome where we are, we're past the tipping point. Certainly in software. > > And you? -- ␦glen? ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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