Fwd: Grad Students Would Be Hit By Massive Tax Hike Under House GOP Plan : NPR
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Fwd: Grad Students Would Be Hit By Massive Tax Hike Under House GOP Plan : NPR
 
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Piece in NPR that somebody else forwarded to me: I have to wonder, contra my own screed a couple of days ago (which on one hand I still believe), whether this was put into the house bill as a poison pill to help mobilize a sector of resistance. The NPR article says that 145.000 people received tuition waivers in 2011-2012 (I don’t know if that means, in aggregate, or per year). TImes 50k/year times 15%, that would be a billion dollars. If it were 25%, that would be larger, but not everybody’s tuition waiver is an MIT 50k. Against deficit changes on the order of trillions, I’m not sure that number is large enough to even make a difference in procedural rules for passage of any final 2-house bill. That’s not to mention that, since most grad students couldn’t pay the extra tax at all, they would drop out and only a part of the accounted amount would ever be collected. In poking a beehive of higher education (sadly, too low-budget to qualify as a hornet’s nest), though, they would be sure to provoke a set of people who have a certain amount of discretionary time and enough of a habit of organizing to be willing to put some of that time into communication. Many of them can also spell, more or less, and compose a grammatical sentence. If it were mainly about the money, surely the house could have found some other group to steal a billion dollars from who are too overworked, underpaid, and isolated to have time or community structure to organize against them. I wonder if the relevant committees, too cowardly to fight t in the open, are looking for small proxy wars that would absolve them of the responsibility for being associated with a tax plan even they don’t think they could get away with indefinitely through the next several election cycles. After all, they are mean, and in many fundamental things profoundly stupid, but in terms of infighting tactics and evading responsibility they are quite sophisticated. I guess that question turns on whether the elimintation of this one item would have any significant effect on the form or passage of the rest of the package. Shame I have no professional knowledge in this sphere. I don’t even know enough about the ones drafting the bill to have a sense of whether meanness, or cowardly shrewdness, are more plausible motives for their choices. Eric ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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I don't know. I *wish* that were the case, that the (mostly) lawyers we elect to argue about stuff we don't want to argue about, were crafty enough to plant poison pills. Was it Napoleon who said: "Never ascribe malice where incompetence will suffice."? We could modify that slightly to: Never ascribe cleverness where incompetence will suffice. But I'm gullible. Our (Oregon) congress members seem relatively authentic, even our Republican. But who knows?
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/disliking-congress-as-a-whole-and-as-individuals/ On 11/21/2017 04:38 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > I wonder if the relevant committees, too cowardly to fight t in the open, are looking for small proxy wars that would absolve them of the responsibility for being associated with a tax plan even they don’t think they could get away with indefinitely through the next several election cycles. After all, they are mean, and in many fundamental things profoundly stupid, but in terms of infighting tactics and evading responsibility they are quite sophisticated. > > I guess that question turns on whether the elimintation of this one item would have any significant effect on the form or passage of the rest of the package. > > Shame I have no professional knowledge in this sphere. I don’t even know enough about the ones drafting the bill to have a sense of whether meanness, or cowardly shrewdness, are more plausible motives for their choices. -- ␦glen? ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
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Re: Fwd: Grad Students Would Be Hit By Massive Tax Hike Under House GOP Plan : NPR
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In reply to this post by David Eric Smith
Hi, Eric, There is deep comfort in any conspiracy theory – the solace that somebody, ANYBODY, even the Devil, is in charge! Alas, as my friend Charles Peirce is wont to point out, most events are random. So, this white mote that you point to in the black milk of our time, is probably random, also, -- a stupid mistake made by some arrogant staffer and the republicans too dumb to see the risk they are running. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Piece in NPR that somebody else forwarded to me: I have to wonder, contra my own screed a couple of days ago (which on one hand I still believe), whether this was put into the house bill as a poison pill to help mobilize a sector of resistance. The NPR article says that 145.000 people received tuition waivers in 2011-2012 (I don’t know if that means, in aggregate, or per year). TImes 50k/year times 15%, that would be a billion dollars. If it were 25%, that would be larger, but not everybody’s tuition waiver is an MIT 50k. Against deficit changes on the order of trillions, I’m not sure that number is large enough to even make a difference in procedural rules for passage of any final 2-house bill. That’s not to mention that, since most grad students couldn’t pay the extra tax at all, they would drop out and only a part of the accounted amount would ever be collected. In poking a beehive of higher education (sadly, too low-budget to qualify as a hornet’s nest), though, they would be sure to provoke a set of people who have a certain amount of discretionary time and enough of a habit of organizing to be willing to put some of that time into communication. Many of them can also spell, more or less, and compose a grammatical sentence. If it were mainly about the money, surely the house could have found some other group to steal a billion dollars from who are too overworked, underpaid, and isolated to have time or community structure to organize against them. I wonder if the relevant committees, too cowardly to fight t in the open, are looking for small proxy wars that would absolve them of the responsibility for being associated with a tax plan even they don’t think they could get away with indefinitely through the next several election cycles. After all, they are mean, and in many fundamental things profoundly stupid, but in terms of infighting tactics and evading responsibility they are quite sophisticated. I guess that question turns on whether the elimintation of this one item would have any significant effect on the form or passage of the rest of the package. Shame I have no professional knowledge in this sphere. I don’t even know enough about the ones drafting the bill to have a sense of whether meanness, or cowardly shrewdness, are more plausible motives for their choices. Eric ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Fwd: Grad Students Would Be Hit By Massive Tax Hike Under House GOP Plan : NPR
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Hi Nick,
Yes, I imagine this explanation probably wins on entropic grounds (which is maybe nothing other than a restatement of what you said): there are more detailed ways the random stupidity and arrogance explanation can be right, than most alternatives. I wonder if they believe they are stratizing? E > On Nov 21, 2017, at 12:16 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi, Eric, > > There is deep comfort in any conspiracy theory – the solace that somebody, ANYBODY, even the Devil, is in charge! Alas, as my friend Charles Peirce is wont to point out, most events are random. So, this white mote that you point to in the black milk of our time, is probably random, also, -- a stupid mistake made by some arrogant staffer and the republicans too dumb to see the risk they are running. > > Nick > > > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > Clark University > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 5:38 AM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Subject: [FRIAM] Fwd: Grad Students Would Be Hit By Massive Tax Hike Under House GOP Plan : NPR > > Piece in NPR that somebody else forwarded to me: > > >> https://www.npr.org/2017/11/14/563879136/house-gop-tax-plan-would-hit-grad-students-with-massive-tax-hike > > I have to wonder, contra my own screed a couple of days ago (which on one hand I still believe), whether this was put into the house bill as a poison pill to help mobilize a sector of resistance. The NPR article says that 145.000 people received tuition waivers in 2011-2012 (I don’t know if that means, in aggregate, or per year). TImes 50k/year times 15%, that would be a billion dollars. If it were 25%, that would be larger, but not everybody’s tuition waiver is an MIT 50k. Against deficit changes on the order of trillions, I’m not sure that number is large enough to even make a difference in procedural rules for passage of any final 2-house bill. That’s not to mention that, since most grad students couldn’t pay the extra tax at all, they would drop out and only a part of the accounted amount would ever be collected. > > In poking a beehive of higher education (sadly, too low-budget to qualify as a hornet’s nest), though, they would be sure to provoke a set of people who have a certain amount of discretionary time and enough of a habit of organizing to be willing to put some of that time into communication. Many of them can also spell, more or less, and compose a grammatical sentence. If it were mainly about the money, surely the house could have found some other group to steal a billion dollars from who are too overworked, underpaid, and isolated to have time or community structure to organize against them. > > I wonder if the relevant committees, too cowardly to fight t in the open, are looking for small proxy wars that would absolve them of the responsibility for being associated with a tax plan even they don’t think they could get away with indefinitely through the next several election cycles. After all, they are mean, and in many fundamental things profoundly stupid, but in terms of infighting tactics and evading responsibility they are quite sophisticated. > > I guess that question turns on whether the elimintation of this one item would have any significant effect on the form or passage of the rest of the package. > > Shame I have no professional knowledge in this sphere. I don’t even know enough about the ones drafting the bill to have a sense of whether meanness, or cowardly shrewdness, are more plausible motives for their choices. > > Eric > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Fwd: Grad Students Would Be Hit By Massive Tax Hike Under House GOP Plan : NPR
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In reply to this post by gepr
Nice data to have, Glen, thank you.
E > On Nov 21, 2017, at 11:02 AM, ┣glen┫ <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I don't know. I *wish* that were the case, that the (mostly) lawyers we elect to argue about stuff we don't want to argue about, were crafty enough to plant poison pills. Was it Napoleon who said: "Never ascribe malice where incompetence will suffice."? We could modify that slightly to: Never ascribe cleverness where incompetence will suffice. But I'm gullible. Our (Oregon) congress members seem relatively authentic, even our Republican. But who knows? > > https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/disliking-congress-as-a-whole-and-as-individuals/ > > On 11/21/2017 04:38 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> I wonder if the relevant committees, too cowardly to fight t in the open, are looking for small proxy wars that would absolve them of the responsibility for being associated with a tax plan even they don’t think they could get away with indefinitely through the next several election cycles. After all, they are mean, and in many fundamental things profoundly stupid, but in terms of infighting tactics and evading responsibility they are quite sophisticated. >> >> I guess that question turns on whether the elimintation of this one item would have any significant effect on the form or passage of the rest of the package. >> >> Shame I have no professional knowledge in this sphere. I don’t even know enough about the ones drafting the bill to have a sense of whether meanness, or cowardly shrewdness, are more plausible motives for their choices. > > > -- > ␦glen? > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Fwd: Grad Students Would Be Hit By Massive Tax Hike Under House GOP Plan : NPR
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In reply to this post by David Eric Smith
http://phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1985
Best, Pietro (Italian silent friend) Il 21/11/17 13:38, Eric Smith ha
scritto:
-- The world is full of interesting problems to be solved! Home page: http://terna.to.it Have a look to: http://web-prod.santafe.edu/news-center/news/dangers-simplicity-complex-world ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Fwd: Grad Students Would Be Hit By Massive Tax Hike Under House GOP Plan : NPR
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In reply to this post by David Eric Smith
On the other hand, many professors want a cheap, dedicated labor force, and benefit from having a labor pool that believes they have poor employment options until they say otherwise. Why should being a grad student an exercise in suffering? Meanwhile, research is done by many kind of organizations outside of universities.
Academia often does not play nice with industry, and often goes to great lengths to shield itself from outsiders. At least half the talks I go to introduce the speaker based on their distinguished academic genealogy, and not based on any of their accomplishments. Even the forms I have to fill out to invite speakers assume a certain kind of background, and the expectations are set up (at many levels of the organization) to judge harshly anyone that does not conform to that. In a way, I see all this, and think Burn Baby Burn. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Fwd: Grad Students Would Be Hit By Massive Tax Hike Under House GOP Plan : NPR
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Reportedly there's some anti Roe v. Wade language tucked in the bill, too. See page 92-93, I recall. TJ On Nov 21, 2017 4:14 PM, "Marcus Daniels" <[hidden email]> wrote: On the other hand, many professors want a cheap, dedicated labor force, and benefit from having a labor pool that believes they have poor employment options until they say otherwise. Why should being a grad student an exercise in suffering? Meanwhile, research is done by many kind of organizations outside of universities. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Fwd: Grad Students Would Be Hit By Massive Tax Hike Under House GOP Plan : NPR
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Does it even mean anything? Why not allow 529e for a child one might have or come to know? Then could start even earlier.
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]]
On Behalf Of Tom Johnson Reportedly there's some anti Roe v. Wade language tucked in the bill, too. See page 92-93, I recall. TJ On Nov 21, 2017 4:14 PM, "Marcus Daniels" <[hidden email]> wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
Re: Fwd: Grad Students Would Be Hit By Massive Tax Hike Under House GOP Plan : NPR
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
Oh boy, careful what you wish for: Indentured Servitude. The legislative things to do are to prevent just that.
Bring back pensions and give an incentive to stay for five years. https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/11/the-push-for-education-programs-that-pay-people-as-they-learn/546329/ Fadulu: Even though a company has invested in an apprentice, couldn't the apprentice leave and go elsewhere for a job that pays better? It sounds risky from a business perspective. Campa-Najjar: There are certain agreements that could prevent that. Unions, when they do apprenticeships, they just say, "If we train you, you have committed to staying for five years." It's almost like the military. ... Maybe there's just [a need for] accountability on both sides [when it comes to companies and their employees]. The employer and employee come into this relationship where we're going to train you and you will work for us for the next five years. We'll put you on this curriculum where every couple months you get a promotion. ... So I think there are some things legislatively we could do to make that happen. -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 1:44 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Grad Students Would Be Hit By Massive Tax Hike Under House GOP Plan : NPR On the other hand, many professors want a cheap, dedicated labor force, and benefit from having a labor pool that believes they have poor employment options until they say otherwise. Why should being a grad student an exercise in suffering? Meanwhile, research is done by many kind of organizations outside of universities. Academia often does not play nice with industry, and often goes to great lengths to shield itself from outsiders. At least half the talks I go to introduce the speaker based on their distinguished academic genealogy, and not based on any of their accomplishments. Even the forms I have to fill out to invite speakers assume a certain kind of background, and the expectations are set up (at many levels of the organization) to judge harshly anyone that does not conform to that. In a way, I see all this, and think Burn Baby Burn. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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Hm. I suppose I'm a fan of the *category*. I was a "co-op" student in college and it did wonders for me. But there was no agreement that I'd definitely take a job with them after graduation. So, perhaps I got the better end of the deal. It wouldn't have bothered me much to sell some of my future to my co-op employer, though, because I only co-op'ed at the 1 company. A friend hopped companies a couple of times for his co-op terms and eventually went for a masters and got a job at a totally different company.
On 11/21/2017 02:17 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Oh boy, careful what you wish for: Indentured Servitude. The legislative things to do are to prevent just that. > Bring back pensions and give an incentive to stay for five years. > > https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/11/the-push-for-education-programs-that-pay-people-as-they-learn/546329/ > > Fadulu: Even though a company has invested in an apprentice, couldn't the apprentice leave and go elsewhere for a job that pays better? It sounds risky from a business perspective. > > Campa-Najjar: There are certain agreements that could prevent that. Unions, when they do apprenticeships, they just say, "If we train you, you have committed to staying for five years." It's almost like the military. ... Maybe there's just [a need for] accountability on both sides [when it comes to companies and their employees]. The employer and employee come into this relationship where we're going to train you and you will work for us for the next five years. We'll put you on this curriculum where every couple months you get a promotion. ... So I think there are some things legislatively we could do to make that happen. -- ☣ gⅼеɳ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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