Fwd: ABM

[Marcus G. Daniels]

Douglas Roberts wrote:
> When I mentioned that there were a few people on this list who felt
> that OO methodologies were an impediment to ABM development rather
> than a benefit, the general response was disbelief.
OO methodologies, and esp. common OOP tools, can be both a benefit and
an impediment -- the ratio of benefit and impediment depends on the
situation.

[Douglas Roberts-2]

Oh, I'm pretty sure that I didn't. It is well recognized that any group of X
domain "experts" will effectively express ~X*2 opinions on any given topic
within their domain.

On 6/5/07, Glen E. P. Ropella <gepr at tempusdictum.com> wrote:
>
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>
> It sounds like you misrepresented the thread, to me.
>

--
Doug Roberts, RTI International
droberts at rti.org
doug at parrot-farm.net
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell
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[Robert Howard-2-3]

The impediments (the constraints and rules) of a programming language are
there deliberately by design. They are the benefits. Among many other
things, OO deliberately impedes a programmer from looking into the scope of
objects unless specifically declared. This may be seen as an impediment to
the programmer, who might just love to be able to bang anything out on the
keyboard, but it is marketed as a long-term benefit to other programmers who
later have to read the code.

Robert Howard
Phoenix, Arizona

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Marcus G. Daniels
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 8:47 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: ABM

Douglas Roberts wrote:
> When I mentioned that there were a few people on this list who felt
> that OO methodologies were an impediment to ABM development rather
> than a benefit, the general response was disbelief.
OO methodologies, and esp. common OOP tools, can be both a benefit and
an impediment -- the ratio of benefit and impediment depends on the
situation.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Robert Holmes]

On 6/5/07, Glen E. P. Ropella <gepr at tempusdictum.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> Saying some thing _can_ be an impediment is very different from saying
> that it is _always_ an impediment.



Well there's your problem Glen - you're trying to introduce conditionals and
realistic shades of grey when this group is more comfortable with absolutes
and black and white. For example, the FRIAM approved form would be "Doug
Robert's posts always lead to a flame war", not "Doug Robert's comments
sometimes lead to a flame war"

Robert
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[Douglas Roberts-2]

So, I guess the question then would be this:  Does a post that generates a
thread that is 54 messages long and counting always qualify as as a flame,
or only under certain conditions (i.e. Roberts started/contributed to the
thread).

Black.  White!   Black. No, White!
Wrong.  Am not!  Are too!

--Doug

On 6/5/07, Robert Holmes <robert at holmesacosta.com> wrote:

>
> On 6/5/07, Glen E. P. Ropella <gepr at tempusdictum.com> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > Saying some thing _can_ be an impediment is very different from saying
> > that it is _always_ an impediment.
>
>
>
> Well there's your problem Glen - you're trying to introduce conditionals
> and realistic shades of grey when this group is more comfortable with
> absolutes and black and white. For example, the FRIAM approved form would be
> "Doug Robert's posts always lead to a flame war", not "Doug Robert's
> comments sometimes lead to a flame war"
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

--
Doug Roberts, RTI International
droberts at rti.org
doug at parrot-farm.net
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell
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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Robert Howard wrote:
> The impediments (the constraints and rules) of a programming language are
> there deliberately by design. They are the benefits. Among many other
> things, OO deliberately impedes a programmer from looking into the scope of
> objects unless specifically declared. This may be seen as an impediment to
> the programmer, who might just love to be able to bang anything out on the
> keyboard, but it is marketed as a long-term benefit to other programmers who
> later have to read the code.
>  
Sorry, I thought it was clear from context that I was talking about `as
applied to modeling', and this notion of search instead of how to
engineer something with an given goal.   It's not implied that the code
will be shared with anyone.  Often a paper describing the crucial
aspects of the simulation would be published and the code would be
discarded or collect bitrot.

It's an impediment if the language or framework or methodology being
used forces a modeler commit to things they do not know, especially if
those commitments are not obvious and not benign assumptions.  

I realize that starting from a blank slate with a general purpose (let's
say OO) language also doesn't ensure such commitments will not be made,
because are some basic mechanics needed to do simulations at all, and
there are good ways to implement them and more bad ways.  Starting from
scratch, the bias is toward whatever is easy, not to facilities that are
best suited to understand the problem.  Starting from a framework, the
bias is toward whatever templates happen to do, and whatever the
conventional wisdom suggests.  Tradeoffs.

[glen ep ropella]

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Robert Holmes wrote:
> Well there's your problem Glen - you're trying to introduce conditionals
> and realistic shades of grey when this group is more comfortable with
> absolutes and black and white. For example, the FRIAM approved form
> would be "Doug Robert's posts always lead to a flame war", not "Doug
> Robert's comments sometimes lead to a flame war"

Hmmm.  OK.  How's this:

OO methods are always an impediment when the application is not
naturally an OO.  And the lack of any method is always an impediment if
the application has some natural structure.

Perhaps the following opinion will fall on more sympathetic ears:

For those of you who use phrases like "OO methodologies", it's "OO
method".  The word "methodology" indicates the study of method.  You
sound like a bunch of stodgy old bureaucrats whose only skill is placing
clip art in powerpoint and go to every length to establish their
relevance with made-up words.  "Methodologies"... Sheesh!  We may as
well run around talking about all those biologies, physicses,
sociologies, ontologies, and phenomenologicalies everyone uses.

- --
glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com
Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by
means of language. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein

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[Douglas Roberts-2]

Guess who sounds like a cranky old fart now?

I'm positively jovial in comparison. (My preferred methodology,
coincidently).

;-}

Oh, and btw:  the world is generally comprised of objects, which has the
interesting effect of influencing most modern sw developers to prefer OO
environments (and methodologies, tee hee) over the older procedural ones.

So, with that, and the fact that it is now 6:07pm Madison time, I will put
my glass (object) of beer down on the table (object) and head down to the
room (object) where my poster (object) session (object) is to be held in a
few minutes.  Where, I will be spending the next two hours describing to
people (objects) the intricacies of our new TeraGrid (object) MRAC (object)
project (object).

Cheers,

--Doug

On 6/5/07, Glen E. P. Ropella <gepr at tempusdictum.com> wrote:

>
>
> Hmmm.  OK.  How's this:
>
> OO methods are always an impediment when the application is not
> naturally an OO.  And the lack of any method is always an impediment if
> the application has some natural structure.
>
> Perhaps the following opinion will fall on more sympathetic ears:
>
> For those of you who use phrases like "OO methodologies", it's "OO
> method".  The word "methodology" indicates the study of method.  You
> sound like a bunch of stodgy old bureaucrats whose only skill is placing
> clip art in powerpoint and go to every length to establish their
> relevance with made-up words.  "Methodologies"... Sheesh!  We may as
> well run around talking about all those biologies, physicses,
> sociologies, ontologies, and phenomenologicalies everyone uses.
>
> - --
> glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com
> Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by
> means of language. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
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>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Douglas Roberts wrote:
> On 6/5/07, *Glen E. P. Ropella* <gepr at tempusdictum.com
> <mailto:gepr at tempusdictum.com>> wrote:
>
>     For those of you who use phrases like "OO methodologies", it's "OO
>     method".  The word "methodology" indicates the study of method.
>
Either one looks to be just fine.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=methodologies

Main Entry: *meth?od?ol?o?gy*
<javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?method13.wav=methodology')>
Pronunciation: "me-th&-'d?-l&-jE
Function: /noun/
Inflected Form(s): /plural/ *-gies*
Etymology: New Latin /methodologia,/ from Latin /methodus/ + /-logia/ -logy
*1* *:* a body of methods <http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/methods> ,
rules, and postulates employed by a discipline *:* a particular
procedure or set of procedures
*2* *:* the analysis of the principles or procedures of inquiry in a
particular field

[glen ep ropella]

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Douglas Roberts wrote:
> Oh, and btw:  the world is generally comprised of objects, which has the
> interesting effect of influencing most modern sw developers to prefer OO
> environments (and methodologies, tee hee) over the older procedural ones.

No, the world is NOT generally comprised of objects any more than it is
generally comprised of waves.

The sw developer flocking phenomenon you cite is causally unrelated to
what the world is _comprised_ of and has more to do with blowhards
brain-washing our naive children with propaganda.

We see the same flocking phenomenon in pop music, roller shoes, tikcle
me elmo dolls, and the popularity of tv.

- --
glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule. -- H. L. Mencken

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[glen ep ropella]

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Marcus G. Daniels wrote:

> Douglas Roberts wrote:
>> On 6/5/07, *Glen E. P. Ropella* <gepr at tempusdictum.com
>> <mailto:gepr at tempusdictum.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     For those of you who use phrases like "OO methodologies", it's "OO
>>     method".  The word "methodology" indicates the study of method.
>>
> Either one looks to be just fine.
>
> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=methodologies
>
> Main Entry: *meth?od?ol?o?gy*
> <javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?method13.wav=methodology')>
> Pronunciation: "me-th&-'d?-l&-jE
> Function: /noun/
> Inflected Form(s): /plural/ *-gies*
> Etymology: New Latin /methodologia,/ from Latin /methodus/ + /-logia/ -logy
> *1* *:* a body of methods <http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/methods> ,
> rules, and postulates employed by a discipline *:* a particular
> procedure or set of procedures
> *2* *:* the analysis of the principles or procedures of inquiry in a
> particular field

This from the same dictionary that gives us:  "drama queen", "himbo",
and "mouse potato".  [grin]

Here's an interesting "usage note" from a _better_ dictionary, the
American Heritage:

'In recent years, however, methodology has been increasingly used as a
pretentious substitute for method in scientific and technical contexts,
as in The oil company has not yet decided on a methodology for restoring
the beaches. People may have taken to this practice by influence of the
adjective methodological to mean "pertaining to methods." Methodological
may have acquired this meaning because people had already been using the
more ordinary adjective methodical to mean "orderly, systematic." But
the misuse of methodology obscures an important conceptual distinction
between the tools of scientific investigation (properly methods) and the
principles that determine how such tools are deployed and interpreted.'

- --
glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com
Shallow men believe in luck ... Strong men believe in cause and effect.
- -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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[Robert Howard-2-3]

Some quotes from the same person:

For those of you who use phrases like "OO methodologies", it's "OO method".
The word "methodology" indicates the study of method.

No. Multiple meanings for symbols doesn't make the language less accurate or
less useful.  

I disagree.  Modeling is not _a_ framework.  It is the _process_ of building
a framework.  Modeling is a behavior, not a state.

Very ambiguous human languages are quite useful and are in no danger of
being replaced by unambiguous languages.  Further, an argument can be made
that the ambiguity in languages makes them _more_ useful than strict
languages.

 

Robert Howard

Phoenix, Arizona

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Marcus G. Daniels
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 4:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: ABM

 

Douglas Roberts wrote:

> On 6/5/07, *Glen E. P. Ropella* <gepr at tempusdictum.com

> <mailto:gepr at tempusdictum.com>> wrote:

>

>     For those of you who use phrases like "OO methodologies", it's "OO

>     method".  The word "methodology" indicates the study of method.

>

Either one looks to be just fine.

 

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=methodologies

 

Main Entry: *meth?od?ol?o?gy*

<javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?method13.wav=methodology')>

Pronunciation: "me-th&-'d?-l&-jE

Function: /noun/

Inflected Form(s): /plural/ *-gies*

Etymology: New Latin /methodologia,/ from Latin /methodus/ + /-logia/ -logy

*1* *:* a body of methods <http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/methods> ,

rules, and postulates employed by a discipline *:* a particular

procedure or set of procedures

*2* *:* the analysis of the principles or procedures of inquiry in a

particular field

 

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 

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[glen ep ropella]

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Robert Howard wrote:
> Some quotes from the same person:

So, what's your point?

- --
glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com
Do I contradict myself?  Very well, then, I contradict myself; (I am
large -- I contain multitudes.) -- Walt Whitman

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