Friam Digest, Vol 43, Issue 24

[Nick Thompson]

Phil,

I have kept out of the most recent War of the PolyMaths because i just
don't have the firepower these days to keep up.

But your last communication poked my fire a bit.

Have you seen either THE PLAUSIBILITY OF LIFE or CATCHING OURSELVES IN THE
ACT.

The f irst is a must read, because the gain/pain ratio is so high.  As for
the second, the pain is pretty high, so I have been unable as yet whether
the gain is worth it, but I am pretty sure.  

Nick

> [Original Message]
> From: <friam-request at redfish.com>
> To: <friam at redfish.com>
> Date: 1/13/2007 12:00:41 PM
> Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 43, Issue 24
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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: fun and sandpiles (Phil Henshaw)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 08:29:14 -0500
> From: "Phil Henshaw" <sy at synapse9.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] fun and sandpiles
> To: <sy at synapse9.com>, "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
> Group'" <friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <001101c73716$d4f78d30$2f01a8c0 at SavyII>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> On thing worth mentioning is the reason it's useful to consider the maze
> of instrumental behaviors that constitute systems in the context of the
> whole envelope of their developments (??.?? ? `?.??) from beginning to
> end.   It turns the mystery of complex developmental systems into the
> puzzle of when and how they'll go through the classic switches and
> display the key landmarks of doing so.  
>
> The growth to climax switch is one of the most interesting of them, and
> of particular concern to systems designed not to allow it, for example.
> Of course, a major preliminary question once the model is understood, is
> whether the switches that completely reorient the developmental
> processes originate from inside or out.  
>
>
> Phil Henshaw                       ????.?? ? `?.????
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> >
> > Sure, there's definitely a point to make that the inactive
> > presence of potential least energy patterns is frequently
> > 'the reason' that patterns
> > form.   That might make it seem that offering 'fun' as an alternative
> > (for the system exploring the options), is well, like it was said for
> > fun...   I also see a much more difficult issue involved.  
> >
> > There's the significant question to raise about the
> > difference between abstract causation (which has the end
> > effect as the cause) and instrumental causation (which has
> > the process leading there as the cause).  The former is a lot
> > easier, and arguably much more useful since it lets you give
> > a causal value to abstractions like statistics for
> > other situations than the one you're actually considering.  
> > The latter
> > is a horrible nuisance by comparison, because it requires
> > extensive particular understanding of situations that will
> > occur only once. Because it's how nature does it, however
> > (you can watch and see), the latter still seems interesting.  
> >
> > In tracing instrumental causation there certainly are some
> > common mistakes to be made, and there's not much of a
> > developed tradition for guidance, either.  What seems the
> > worst of it is that trying to read instrumental causes
> > sometimes seems to largely lead modern minds to conspiracy
> > theory and magical thinking.  Still, it gives one to wonder
> > why people are so very bad at it, and about the examples of
> > natural system steering where it's navigating the
> > instrumental causes that clearly seems to be the center of the fun.
> >
> >
> > Phil Henshaw                       ????.?? ? `?.????
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 680 Ft. Washington Ave
> > NY NY 10040                      
> > tel: [phone]                
> > e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com          
> > explorations: www.synapse9.com    
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com
> > > [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Hugh Trenchard
> > > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 1:55 AM
> > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > > Subject: [FRIAM] fun and sandpiles
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks, Phil, and I definitely agree that sandpile
> > phenomena and play
> > > phenomena are not mutually exclusive in the domain of complexity.
> > >
> > > I think I was only trying to emphasize the point that I
> > > started my thread
> > > with a view to specific pattern formations of frigatebirds
> > > which result from
> > > some specific rules of interaction.  At the risk of
> > > misinterpretation here
> > > (and no disrespect intended, if I am misinterpreting), an
> > > argument was
> > > presented, it seemed, that there are no reasons for certain
> > > behaviours other
> > > than that they are the result of having fun, but the argument
> > > was made in
> > > the context of animals that were not necessarily in the
> > > pattern formations I
> > > was looking at.
> > >
> > > It may very well be that it is fun for frigatebirds to be in these
> > > formations, but there are, I think, still physical reasons
> > > why they choose
> > > those formations - and not other ones - related to the way in
> > > which they
> > > couple due to the energy savings that certain formations allow (I
> > > hypothesize).
> > >
> > > Coming back to cyclists who interact, it is certainly
> > > satisfying when a
> > > drafting cyclist finds the "sweetspot" in the draft zone,
> > > where maximal
> > > drafting benefit is experienced.  It also fun and satisfying
> > > to be part of
> > > the peloton experience, to have engaged in a series of
> > > interactions with
> > > other cyclists that result in emergent pattern formation.  
> > > Even so, the
> > > pattern formations can be traced primarily to physical
> > > coupling between
> > > cyclists, namely the drafting benefit, collision avoidance
> > > and forward
> > > motion.
> > >
> > > Bicycle racing, is of course, a sport, so it also involves
> > > strategies and
> > > directives from leaders, but you can remove those and there
> > > will still be
> > > certain types of patterns which will arise by the basic rules
> > > I've noted
> > > (I've simulated some by computer, although the results are
> > > still a bit
> > > controversial).
> > >
> > > In any event, I certainly agree that there is a broad scale
> > > of complexity,
> > > since most types of interactions result in some sort of
> > > emergent phenomena.
> > > I think, though, that it becomes increasingly difficult to
> > > identify even
> > > what the emergent phenomena are when looking at complex
> > > interactions that
> > > involve a multitude of factors and rules of interaction, let
> > > alone isolate
> > > what the principles of interaction are that lead to the
> > > emergent phenomena.
> > > What is the emergent phenomena of birds that are playing, in
> > > apparently
> > > random configurations? I'm not suggesting there are any,
> > they're just
> > > difficult to see, that's all.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Phil Henshaw" <sy at synapse9.com>
> > > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
> > > <friam at redfish.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 6:34 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior
> > >
> > >
> > > I for one don't think emergent systems study requires
> > choosing between
> > > 'sand piles' and animals having 'fun'.   Playful
> > > experimentation is one
> > > of the all time best natural systems for discovering natural
> > > structures it seems to me, just a higher level version of
> > > jumping potential wells like some grain of sand seems bound
> > > to have done at a critical point to
> > > get a slide going.   The range of complex system phenomena is
> > > tremendous.
> > >
> > > One thing that helps me is that there seem to be various
> > > scales you can arrange the entire spectrum on, complexity of
> > > self-regulation for
> > > example.   Thermostats and sand piles are on the simple side
> > > and animal
> > > acrobatics on the high side.  You don't necessarily have to
> > > assign a number to things to have a useful scale, of course,
> > > just have a way to order things and make note of
> > > uncertainties.  That's what the paleontologists do with all
> > > their species branching diagrams (clad notation).  For those
> > > who like numbers, though, there's the rudimentary numerical
> > > development scale, the number of doublings a system performs
> > > in its development.   Humans and the world economy thus far
> > > are about 30
> > > doublings, for example.   Yep, kind of an interestingly compressed
> > > scale!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Phil Henshaw                       ????.?? ? `?.????
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > 680 Ft. Washington Ave
> > > NY NY 10040
> > > tel: [phone]
> > > e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com
> > > explorations: www.synapse9.com
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com
> > > [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On
> > > > Behalf Of Hugh Trenchard
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 8:05 PM
> > > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I for one am rarely afraid to ask questions, stupid or
> > > otherwise, when
> > > > my curiosity is piqued.
> > > >
> > > > Do the ravens in Sante Fe align in vee formations when they
> > > roll off
> > > > chandelles?  If they do, then regardless of whether they
> > are having
> > > > fun, it is an interesting pattern formation which causes
> > one to ask
> > > > reasonably why
> > > > they choose such a formation. Do they do it for the sheer
> > > > pleasure of the
> > > > esthetics of the vee formation? This would, it seems, entail
> > > > some "fun" of
> > > > the formation, although I doubt I would find many people who
> > > > would argue
> > > > that is the fun they derive. So then why is it fun that they
> > > > should align in
> > > > those formations?
> > > >
> > > > I myself wouldn't claim to subscribe to a behaviourist
> > > school, unless
> > > > you can generalize the term to include analysis of the
> > emergence of
> > > > physical patterns among collectives.  Pattern formation within
> > > > sandpiles is more akin
> > > > to my specific interests than the behaviour of individual
> > > > animals. That is
> > > > always interesting too, but it isn't the focus of my inquiry here.
> > > >
> > > > Hugh Trenchard
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Peter Lissaman" <plissaman at earthlink.net>
> > > > To: <friam at redfish.com>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 1:05 PM
> > > > Subject: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > When he was given a brief description of the learned
> > > theories of Dr.
> > > > > Freud, and told that they accounted for all human behavior, Will
> > > > Rogers stated
> > > > > that: "he found it real interesting, but reckoned that in
> > > > Oklahoma, folks
> > > > > mainly did things jes' acause they felt like it".  I gave a
> > > > paper at AIAA
> > > > > annual meeting in Reno earlier this week on birds
> > > > extracting energy from
> > > > > turbulence. There's a lot in it for the birdies, with their
> > > > low flight
> > > > > speeds, superb sensing and rapid response. Ravens in
> > Santa Fe are
> > > > > marvellous aerobats in the turbulence rolling off the
> > > > Sangres. But why?
> > > > > When you see them rolling off perfect chandelles, as with
> > > > dolphins surfing
> > > > > and gamboling in the bow wave, you have to admit that
> > > > they're "jes' havin'
> > > > > fun", contrary to these gloomy animal "behavioristos" who
> > > > claim animals do
> > > > > everything for a reason.
> > > > >
> > > > > Peter Lissaman,  Da Vinci Ventures
> > > > >
> > > > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what
> > to look for.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
> > > > > TEL: [phone]                        FAX: [phone]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures,
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> > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures,
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> > >
> > >
> > > ============================================================
> > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures,
> > > archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ============================================================
> > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures,
> > > archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
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> End of Friam Digest, Vol 43, Issue 24
> *************************************