Friam Digest, Vol 29, Issue 42
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Dear all,
Thoughts from the diaspora ... here we are in Central New England .... pinned down by the snow storm .... our turkey is in Cambridge, 70 miles away .... but we have the VEGGIES! AND the pumkin pie. All the time I was out there I never thought to ask you the following question. As a behaviorist psychologist, I have always had doubts about the notion of self knowledge, in the sense that we know the true causes of our own actions (which we would have to do if "we" were the causes of our own action, eh? ) One of the reasons I went out to SFE was to get the answer to the question, what is it that a computer gives you when you ask a computer to tell you about itself. On my understanding, what you learn about is in fact the state of a specialisted subsystem designed to monitor the whole which gets you an answer on the basis of reports from specialized sub-sub systems...."cues" if you will. So in my gloom, I am sitting here looking at my CP monitor in my task bar varying from 10 percent to 17 percent. So, that is not my CPU telling me about my CPU, right. If not, who is it and on the basis of what incomplete knowledge is it telling me what the CPU is doing. Happy thanks giving. If anybody has a turkey and no veggies or pie, give me a call. Nick Nicholas Thompson nickthompson at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson > [Original Message] > From: <Friam-request at redfish.com> > To: <Friam at redfish.com> > Date: 11/23/2005 11:22:26 PM > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 29, Issue 42 > > Send Friam mailing list submissions to > Friam at redfish.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > Friam-request at redfish.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > Friam-owner at redfish.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: more metrics - was:geek novels (Bruce Sawhill) > 2. Re: Interesting New Development w/o I-goddamn-DEs (Giles Bowkett) > 3. Re: Interesting New Development w/o I-goddamn-DEs (Owen Densmore) > 4. Re: Top geek novels (John Pfersich) > 5. Re: Top geek novels (James Steiner) > 6. Re: Top geek novels (Roger Critchlow) > 7. Re: Interesting New Development w/o I-goddamn-DEs (John Pfersich) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:58:06 -0800 > From: Bruce Sawhill <bksawhill at cnsp.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] more metrics - was:geek novels > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <Friam at redfish.com> > Cc: Bruce Sawhill <bksawhill at cnsp.com> > Message-ID: <6C414552-A91D-49AC-BD8D-A6501AA2A1E1 at cnsp.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > my E number is about 30. > > Bruce > > > On Nov 23, 2005, at 1:30 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 23, 2005 at 12:06:30PM -0700, Robert Holmes wrote: > >> So all this scoring of ourselves against the geek novel list > >> reminded me of > >> a couple of metrics I recently came across in Physics World. One > >> is the > >> "h-index" (http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/9/8/9/1), which > >> quantifies an > >> individuals scientific output as the number of papers (peer- > >> reviewed) you > >> have written that have been cited at least that number of times. > >> My h-index > >> is 1 (I've written one peer-reviewed paper that got cited once); real > >> scientists score in the 20-40 range after 20 years or so in the > >> business. So > >> what's the highest h-index in FRIAM? > > > > 20 is a pretty high h number. You can compute h approximately quite > > easily from Google Scholar, a little less easily from ISI. I did it > > for myself, both my PhD supervisors and several other academic > > individuals I know of. My h number was 7 according to Google, and 6 > > according to ISI. My first PhD supervisor was about 5, and my second > > one about 23. The second supervisor is considered a leader in his > > field. Nobel prize winners were typically reported with h values in > > the > > 30s. Most other scientists I am acquainted with (of my vintage) came > > in under 10, so my h-value was actually fairly average (gave me some > > sort of comfort, at least). > > > > Whilst the h value is considerably better than raw publication and > > citation values, it is still prone to the fashion effect. Working in a > > fashionable area of science (eg gene sequencing) will give you a > > higher > > h score than an unfashionable one (eg complex systems). > > > >> > >> The Physics World correspondence that followed their item on the h- > >> index > >> drew a parallel with the Eddington Number E, invented by famed > >> astronomer > >> and amateur cyclist Arthur Eddington. E is defined as the highest > >> number of > >> days in your life on which you have cycled more than E miles. My E > >> is about > >> 15. Eddington's was 87 when he died. So who's got the highest E > >> number here? > >> > > > > The longest distance I did/do regularly is about 10km. Translating > > this into miles, that would be around 7 (IIRC)? I have occasionally > > done longer distances, of course, but not more than 7 times... > > > > So I would have to be (7,7) then ... > > > > > >> Robert > >> > >> (h, E) = (1, 15) > > > >> ============================================================ > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe > >> Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at http:// > >> www.friam.org > > > > -- > > *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which > > is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a > > virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this > > email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you > > may safely ignore this attachment. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ > > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile) > > Mathematics 0425 253119 (") > > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au > > Australia http:// > > parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks > > International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------ > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe > > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at http:// > > www.friam.org > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:12:55 -0700 > From: Giles Bowkett <gilesb at gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Interesting New Development w/o I-goddamn-DEs > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <Friam at redfish.com> > Message-ID: > <2d81dedb0511231512s4836b2afnc59a4675110b9b78 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Fair's fair. I can't actually code in Smalltalk yet, but I've played > with it enough that I can say that VisualWorks Smalltalk's IDE puts > every Java IDE I've ever seen to shame. > > On 11/23/05, John Pfersich <jp1660 at att.net> wrote: > > I know that I'll be called a freak, but I'll take Smalltalk and its > > environment any day over any other tool. Eclipse tries really hard to be > > the IDE that all decent Smalltalks have (not GNU Smalltalk). I know that > > it's slow for some everyday things, but simulations are easy in ST, and > > Ruby's been said to be the language that's closest to Smalltalk. I'd > > but that doesn't mean it's close. > > > > I know, Smalltalk is dead. > > > > As for Ruby on Rails, I'd have to say after, a small amount of useage, that > > the Seaside framework in Smalltalk is better. RoR is a bit of a bicycle > > with training wheels; it tries to simplify the development of web apps, but > > it does away with some of the complexity that is necessary for larger > > projects. Big, inclusive Java is intimidating to learn and ridiculously > > complicated, but there has to be a happy medium between the Java > > implementation and the Ruby implementation. > > > > 'nuf said. > > > > At 09:08 PM 11/22/2005 -0700, Owen Densmore wrote: > > >During the recent conversations about ruby and other nifty systems, I > > >beamed into the various "build xxx in nnn minutes" flicks: > > > http://www.rubyonrails.org/media/video/rails_take2_with_sound.mov > > > http://www.turbogears.org/docs/wiki20/20MinuteWiki.mov > > > > > >.. as a Mac user I was quite surprised at the nifty tools being > > >used! One is iTerm, a more hacker friendly Term replacement with > > >tabs for sessions, .. quite nice. It also seems to be a better > > >terminal in a variety of ways. > > > http://iterm.sourceforge.net/ > > > > > >.. but the HUGE winner is a new text editor, TextMate > > > http://www.macromates.com/ > > >which is very close to two wonderful linux systems: nedit and jedit. > > >TextMate actually has found the sweet-spot between IDEs and text > > >editors. (jEdit has done pretty well here but is a bit flaky at > > > > > >Editor's note: I think most IDEs take more time to learn than they > > >save in development time! I've used Idea .. which was not Mac > > >friendly (weird non-standard file dialogs), Eclipse (nice Mac > > >integration but very, very hard to learn), and Netbeans (tempting but > > >always with at least one fatal flaw). > > > > > >Note how well the movies show the use of Ruby/Python syntax awareness > > >and command/template completion. I'm going to jump in for a bit and > > >see if it replaces my current jEdit on Mac. > > > > > > -- Owen > > > > > >Owen Densmore > > >http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org > > > > > > > > > > > >============================================================ > > >FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > >Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe > > >Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at > > >http://www.friam.org > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe > > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at > > > > > -- > Giles Bowkett = Giles Goat Boy > http://www.gilesgoatboy.org/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 16:41:10 -0700 > From: Owen Densmore <owen at backspaces.net> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Interesting New Development w/o I-goddamn-DEs > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <Friam at redfish.com> > Message-ID: <1A76B4F1-7F4C-4ADE-9ABE-093E9668BFA0 at backspaces.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Well, smalltalk is a bit different in that it operates in a complete > environment of its own. And its a bit hard to share code, or at > least was years ago when I used it at Xerox. But I presume Squeak > and other newer versions have gotten past the "image" .. the big wad > of smalltalk that was your current version and envrionment. > > But, boy, I really agree that only APL came close to the speed of > development of smalltalk. > > But this does bring to mind an idea: build a java based system that > had the same completeness of smalltalk, and you ship the whole > "project". Sorta build a great incestuous java IDE, possibly with a > Groovy or similar scripting plugin, that was the same joy smalltalk was. > > -- Owen > > Owen Densmore > http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org > > > On Nov 23, 2005, at 4:12 PM, Giles Bowkett wrote: > > > Fair's fair. I can't actually code in Smalltalk yet, but I've played > > with it enough that I can say that VisualWorks Smalltalk's IDE puts > > every Java IDE I've ever seen to shame. > > > > On 11/23/05, John Pfersich <jp1660 at att.net> wrote: > >> I know that I'll be called a freak, but I'll take Smalltalk and its > >> environment any day over any other tool. Eclipse tries really hard > >> to be > >> the IDE that all decent Smalltalks have (not GNU Smalltalk). I > >> know that > >> it's slow for some everyday things, but simulations are easy in > >> ST, and > >> Ruby's been said to be the language that's closest to Smalltalk. > >> I'd agree, > >> but that doesn't mean it's close. > >> > >> I know, Smalltalk is dead. > >> > >> As for Ruby on Rails, I'd have to say after, a small amount of > >> useage, that > >> the Seaside framework in Smalltalk is better. RoR is a bit of a > >> bicycle > >> with training wheels; it tries to simplify the development of web > >> apps, but > >> it does away with some of the complexity that is necessary for larger > >> projects. Big, inclusive Java is intimidating to learn and > >> ridiculously > >> complicated, but there has to be a happy medium between the Java > >> implementation and the Ruby implementation. > >> > >> 'nuf said. > >> > >> At 09:08 PM 11/22/2005 -0700, Owen Densmore wrote: > >>> During the recent conversations about ruby and other nifty > >>> systems, I > >>> beamed into the various "build xxx in nnn minutes" flicks: > >>> http://www.rubyonrails.org/media/video/rails_take2_with_sound.mov > >>> http://www.turbogears.org/docs/wiki20/20MinuteWiki.mov > >>> > >>> .. as a Mac user I was quite surprised at the nifty tools being > >>> used! One is iTerm, a more hacker friendly Term replacement with > >>> tabs for sessions, .. quite nice. It also seems to be a better > >>> terminal in a variety of ways. > >>> http://iterm.sourceforge.net/ > >>> > >>> .. but the HUGE winner is a new text editor, TextMate > >>> http://www.macromates.com/ > >>> which is very close to two wonderful linux systems: nedit and jedit. > >>> TextMate actually has found the sweet-spot between IDEs and text > >>> editors. (jEdit has done pretty well here but is a bit flaky at > >>> times.) > >>> > >>> Editor's note: I think most IDEs take more time to learn than they > >>> save in development time! I've used Idea .. which was not Mac > >>> friendly (weird non-standard file dialogs), Eclipse (nice Mac > >>> integration but very, very hard to learn), and Netbeans (tempting > >>> but > >>> always with at least one fatal flaw). > >>> > >>> Note how well the movies show the use of Ruby/Python syntax > >>> awareness > >>> and command/template completion. I'm going to jump in for a bit and > >>> see if it replaces my current jEdit on Mac. > >>> > >>> -- Owen > >>> > >>> Owen Densmore > >>> http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ============================================================ > >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe > >>> Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at > >>> http://www.friam.org > >> > >> > >> ============================================================ > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe > >> Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at http:// > >> www.friam.org > >> > > > > > > -- > > Giles Bowkett = Giles Goat Boy > > http://www.gilesgoatboy.org/ > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe > > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at http:// > > www.friam.org > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 20:50:39 -0700 > From: John Pfersich <jp1660 at att.net> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Top geek novels > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <Friam at redfish.com> > Message-ID: > <5.2.0.9.0.20051123204926.019ff2d0 at ipostoffice.worldnet.att.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > At 10:56 AM 11/23/2005 -0700, jpgirard wrote: > > > >And of course, I would argue that the entire Foundation series is built > >Harry Seldon, who (fictionally) built his research on the > >self-organizing/complexity principle that one human is never predictable, > >but populations of humans are. > > > > > > > >Jim > > Like lemmings? > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: /attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:01:34 -0500 > From: James Steiner <gregortroll at gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Top geek novels > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <Friam at redfish.com> > Message-ID: > <5ec674320511232001n539a6cecm8401c9155058c3ea at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > 11/20 plus Shockwave Rider and Stand on Zanzibar... > > On 11/23/05, Jochen Fromm <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de> wrote: > > Real Geeks read hard SF, for instance > > David Brin or Greg Egan. > > "real" geeks? which kind? Tech geeks, Scifi geeks, Radio Geeks, > Science Geeks, Math Geeks, Ballroom dancing geeks...? There's so > many!! > > Here's a question: What kind of geeks are we, or, rather, in what > domains of geekdom do you exist? > > ~~James > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 21:21:42 -0700 > From: Roger Critchlow <rec at elf.org> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Top geek novels > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <Friam at redfish.com> > Message-ID: > <66d1c98f0511232021r552c5a4q9d919f0189667bfc at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Ah, the Whole Geek Catalog. > > -- rec -- > > On 11/23/05, James Steiner <gregortroll at gmail.com> wrote: > > 11/20 plus Shockwave Rider and Stand on Zanzibar... > > > > On 11/23/05, Jochen Fromm <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de> wrote: > > > Real Geeks read hard SF, for instance > > > David Brin or Greg Egan. > > > > "real" geeks? which kind? Tech geeks, Scifi geeks, Radio Geeks, > > Science Geeks, Math Geeks, Ballroom dancing geeks...? There's so > > many!! > > > > Here's a question: What kind of geeks are we, or, rather, in what > > domains of geekdom do you exist? > > > > ~~James > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe > > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 21:15:18 -0700 > From: John Pfersich <jp1660 at att.net> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Interesting New Development w/o I-goddamn-DEs > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > <Friam at redfish.com>, The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee > Group <Friam at redfish.com> > Message-ID: > <5.2.0.9.0.20051123205441.019b7890 at ipostoffice.worldnet.att.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > At 04:41 PM 11/23/2005 -0700, Owen Densmore wrote: > >Well, smalltalk is a bit different in that it operates in a complete > >environment of its own. And its a bit hard to share code, or at > >least was years ago when I used it at Xerox. But I presume Squeak > >and other newer versions have gotten past the "image" .. the big wad > >of smalltalk that was your current version and envrionment. > > Well, you could do fileouts into change sets back a while ago to share > code, and much more sophisticated methods exist now. Images are still > an"impediment" to code sharing. Personally, I look at the image as your > private IDE that's optimized to the way you work. And I've yet to see an > IDE that has as many methods to do refactoring (as in Martin Fowler's > book). The refactoring browser has at least 47 different refactorings. I > gave up counting at that point. And the context sensitive menus (one of the > things they track is which refactorings are valid, and yes, the menus are > objects) are the most advanced I've ever seen. > > > >But, boy, I really agree that only APL came close to the speed of > >development of smalltalk. > > > >But this does bring to mind an idea: build a java based system that > >had the same completeness of smalltalk, and you ship the whole > >"project". Sorta build a great incestuous java IDE, possibly with a > >Groovy or similar scripting plugin, that was the same joy smalltalk was. > > > Java is the pits, and Eclipse is the best that Erich Gramma could come up > with. It would be really difficult to approach the productivity that you > get with the Smalltalk environment. Besides the Smalltalk "IDE" is so > faster than Eclipse, it's obscene. > > Just another OO dig, xUnit testing started with Smalltalk. Kent Beck wrote > a paper that described the process in the late '80s, and it was a Smalltalk > practice. At least, as far back as the early to mid '80s. That and pair > programming and most of extreme programming I consider to be normal > Smalltalk "coding" practices. > > Sorry to go on, but programming and such have been putting food on the > table for over 30 years, and I've yet to see a programming environment > that's as good as Smalltalk over the past 20+ years. I became addicted to > Smalltalk in the early '80s. > > > > -- Owen > > > >Owen Densmore > >http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org > > > > > >On Nov 23, 2005, at 4:12 PM, Giles Bowkett wrote: > > > > > Fair's fair. I can't actually code in Smalltalk yet, but I've played > > > with it enough that I can say that VisualWorks Smalltalk's IDE puts > > > every Java IDE I've ever seen to shame. > > > > > > On 11/23/05, John Pfersich <jp1660 at att.net> wrote: > > >> I know that I'll be called a freak, but I'll take Smalltalk and its > > >> environment any day over any other tool. Eclipse tries really hard > > >> to be > > >> the IDE that all decent Smalltalks have (not GNU Smalltalk). I > > >> know that > > >> it's slow for some everyday things, but simulations are easy in > > >> ST, and > > >> Ruby's been said to be the language that's closest to Smalltalk. > > >> I'd agree, > > >> but that doesn't mean it's close. > > >> > > >> I know, Smalltalk is dead. > > >> > > >> As for Ruby on Rails, I'd have to say after, a small amount of > > >> useage, that > > >> the Seaside framework in Smalltalk is better. RoR is a bit of a > > >> bicycle > > >> with training wheels; it tries to simplify the development of web > > >> apps, but > > >> it does away with some of the complexity that is necessary for larger > > >> projects. Big, inclusive Java is intimidating to learn and > > >> ridiculously > > >> complicated, but there has to be a happy medium between the Java > > >> implementation and the Ruby implementation. > > >> > > >> 'nuf said. > > >> > > >> At 09:08 PM 11/22/2005 -0700, Owen Densmore wrote: > > >>> During the recent conversations about ruby and other nifty > > >>> systems, I > > >>> beamed into the various "build xxx in nnn minutes" flicks: > > >>> http://www.rubyonrails.org/media/video/rails_take2_with_sound.mov > > >>> http://www.turbogears.org/docs/wiki20/20MinuteWiki.mov > > >>> > > >>> .. as a Mac user I was quite surprised at the nifty tools being > > >>> used! One is iTerm, a more hacker friendly Term replacement with > > >>> tabs for sessions, .. quite nice. It also seems to be a better > > >>> terminal in a variety of ways. > > >>> http://iterm.sourceforge.net/ > > >>> > > >>> .. but the HUGE winner is a new text editor, TextMate > > >>> http://www.macromates.com/ > > >>> which is very close to two wonderful linux systems: nedit and jedit. > > >>> TextMate actually has found the sweet-spot between IDEs and text > > >>> editors. (jEdit has done pretty well here but is a bit flaky at > > >>> times.) > > >>> > > >>> Editor's note: I think most IDEs take more time to learn than they > > >>> save in development time! I've used Idea .. which was not Mac > > >>> friendly (weird non-standard file dialogs), Eclipse (nice Mac > > >>> integration but very, very hard to learn), and Netbeans (tempting > > >>> but > > >>> always with at least one fatal flaw). > > >>> > > >>> Note how well the movies show the use of Ruby/Python syntax > > >>> awareness > > >>> and command/template completion. I'm going to jump in for a bit and > > >>> see if it replaces my current jEdit on Mac. > > >>> > > >>> -- Owen > > >>> > > >>> Owen Densmore > > >>> http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ============================================================ > > >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe > > >>> Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at > > >>> http://www.friam.org > > >> > > >> > > >> ============================================================ > > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe > > >> Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at http:// > > >> www.friam.org > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Giles Bowkett = Giles Goat Boy > > > http://www.gilesgoatboy.org/ > > > > > > ============================================================ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe > > > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at http:// > > > www.friam.org > > > > > >============================================================ > >FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe > >Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at > >http://www.friam.org > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Friam mailing list > Friam at redfish.com > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > End of Friam Digest, Vol 29, Issue 42 > ************************************* |
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