Freeman Dyson

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Freeman Dyson

Nick Thompson

While we are at it, did anybody read about Freeman Dyson in the Times Mag today?  What did you think?
 
N
 
 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
 
 
 


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Re: Freeman Dyson

Ted Carmichael
That's a funny coincidence ... I am reading it just now.

I'm always glad to come across another skeptic on anthropogenic global warming, particularly from someone with such strong credentials.  The sustained level of pervasive hand-wrangling on this issue is quite worrisome.  The actions that some are proposing to curb carbon emissions is far out of line relative to the level of uncertainty that still exists, and I think it likely that a stiff carbon tax of some sort will do much more harm than good.

And I do get tired of the badly written articles one finds on this subject in the press.  The level of blind acceptance among the press corp is rather reminiscent of those covering the Bush white house.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.  I have seen a slight uptick in skeptical writings over the last year or so on AGW, so maybe we have started to turn the corner on this issue.  One can hope.

Cheers,

Ted

*I didn't just drop a bomb, did I?

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

While we are at it, did anybody read about Freeman Dyson in the Times Mag today?  What did you think?
 
N
 
 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
 
 
 


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Reply | Threaded
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Re: Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

Steve Smith
In the spirit of avoiding deadlines by reading things I don't have time for and writing things I probably should delete before sending, or better yet, not bother to write:

I have a love/hate relationship with Freeman Dyson and his work and legacy.

I have a love/hate relationship (quite parallel actually) with Global Climate Change.

I'm a human-chauvanist (in the sense of Robert Heinlein) and I loathe myself for it.

I'm a bleeding heart liberal humanist (in the sense of many of us on this list) and I loathe myself for it.

Yes Nick, it is time for another huge helping of starchy, fatty, Ennui, liberally drizzled with rich, spicy Angst:

I think it is horribly/wonderfully arrogant of us to think we can do anything of consequence to this planet.   But then "what means consequence"?  After all, even our most devastating nuclear holocaust would look like a drop in the bucket compared to one good impactor from space (or any other historical Extinction Event).   And at the same time, there is some evidence that humans, at the end of the last ice age managed to wipe out most of the megafauna (where did those mastadons, giant tree sloths, dire wolves and sabertooth cats go anyway?) on the planet, sparing only those in Africa who (apparently?) adapted to our enhanced predatory (neolithic?) capabilities as fast as we developed new ones?

Mother Nature is not really that nice to her children (and I think of us as some of her most precocious brats to date), starting as early as the Siderian period, the rise (and cum-uppance) of the Oxygen Extinction.  Stupid Photosynthesizers... didn't they know when to quit?  And look what they ushered in, Oxygen Metabolizers that could run circles around them, gobble them up like so much fodder and shit them out.   The over-zealousness of the photosynthesizers lead to the creation of their own new masters, the oxygen-eating herbivores who in turn provided a substrate for the carnivores, which collectively provide a great playground for Homo Sapiens Exploitatus (read Genesis and talk to some fundamentalist Christians if you don't think this planet was designed to be our playground).

Like members of the pantheon of Greek (and Roman and Norse) Gods, Ma Nature gives us the rope to hang ourselves, lets us stew in our own juices, offers us the best of all parental benefits: "benign neglect".   Those cigarette burns on our cheeks?  That just comes from not being careful enough around adults smoking cigarettes at a cocktail party (gesticulating wildly in their drunken exuberence).   Only the slow and dull-witted let that happen more than once.  Thanks Ma, you are right... I'll be more careful next time... and thanks again for the chemistry set you gave me for Xmas and the big box of matches!  Have a nice party.

Whether Al Gore (and the many very serious scientists he quotes, or the many Chicken Littles who flock to him) are correct or not, I am not sure.   My human-centric arrogance loves the idea that in 100+ years of industrial activity we have been able to kick the planet's ecological and climatological balance so far out of whack that we might not recover.  My (somewhat more humble) humanist side abhors that we can so blithely set the planet on fire (metaphorically) with little thought to the consequence to all the cute little baby seals and our cute little grandchildren and their even cuter grandchildren (if we, the species last that long).

Dyson is not only a deep thinker, but also a grand thinker.   What could something as mundane as "Global Climate Change" mean to someone who has proposed collecting up all of the planetary and asteroidal material in the solar system to create a perfect shell at the optimal distance from the sun to create a perfect "inside out" planet, intercepting every bit of radiation energy leaving the sun.   If it were set at 1 AU, to simulate the solar flux of earth (how terra-centric can we get?) we get a surface something like 55 million (~2^16 ) times that of earth.   The total energy output of the sun is about 2^43 times our current use.   All the engineering problems aside (hah!) we have a theoretical maximum in this solar system (unless we decided we needed to boost the rate of fusion in the sun, if we could) of at least 55 million times as many people consuming trillions as many times as much energy per capita (put your money back in GM/Hummer stock)!   Given that we would be living on a shell whose "other side" (a few meters or kilometers away?) we might even be able to make much more efficient use of the solar flux than we do now, restricted by having to create/find gradients in our closed little atmospheric and oceanic shell.  Imagine the entire surface of the sphere a huge set of valved heat-pipes just waiting to provide thermal gradients for optimal energy utilization to do useful work!  Imagine all that "useful work"!  Oh the things we could do!

Of course Dyson scoffs at our fears of global warming, and suggests we bio-engineer forests to sequester carbon.   He might even be right (that we have the wherewithal to do such).   And if we start doubling our population every 30 years right away, we can have the population necessary to maximally use the Dyson Sphere in a mere 11 generations (330 years!) (check my math guys).   We'd better quit worrying about minor problems like rising sea levels and desertification of the interior of north America and get cracking on the really hard problems like how to gather up and reshape all the non-solar matter in the solar system.   Better kick a few Obama Bucks into Space Technology, hell kick them all in!

So, is anthropogenic global climate change real?  I fear it is.  I hope it isn't.  What I'm equally disturbed about is that *we can't tell!*.  I don't mean that the climate change scientists don't have really good data and even good models (ice cores from antartica, greenland, etc.).  What I mean is that as a species, as a culture, we are so tangled up in our value system that something vaguely like half of us (well, half of those living in the US, or half of those in the 1st World) insist that *they know for a fact* that the *other half* are totally insane and being disagreeable for entirely specious and political reasons.   Half of us think the other half are trying to destroy the biosphere while the other half think that the *other* other half are trying to destroy the economy.  

Either way, everyone thinks everyone else is trying to destroy humanity (and life, the universe, and everything)!   If the stakes are this high, why are we screaming and running in every direction at once?  Wait... isn't that what we humans (primates, mammals, vertebrates) do?   What possible survival value is there in that?   The canoe is rocking and tipping madly and we are all rushing to see how far out the side we can hang our bodies to try to balance the "idiots" hanging out the other side.   Anyone who's fallen out of a canoe knows that a good strategy when things get tippy is to move to the center and drop down low, not shriek loudly as we manically try to obtain a dynamic balance with the other shrieking occupants.  

When the wildfire roars through the forest or prarie, the animals, great and small run blindly in all directions.   Those that run away from the fire, flush more, and give them a direction to run in.   The only thing a smoke-blinded panicked creature needs to know in a wildfire is to run like hell in the same direction everyone else around you is running (even if they are running in circles).  By the time the fire is about to consume you, this is a good strategy.  Back when it was just starting and you were (un)lucky enough to be near the front, this is as likely to get you killed immediately as it is to help you run in a direction where you get to have a chance of being killed slowly or maybe, just maybe, not at all.  We are the ones who started the fire (if there is one), isn't it amazing that some of us are eager to run right back into it and toss some  more accellerant on it?  Maybe it is just an illusion, a collective hallucination, and isn't it brave of those who run directly into it spraying volatile combustibles around like holy water?

In the spirit of hunkering down in the center of the canoe... I think I should dig out those 5 year old vegetable seeds and start patiently doing germination tests.  Then I should start preparing an area inside my south facing windows to sprout some starts.   In about a week, the soil will be ready for some light tilling and I could plant those peas and an early crop of greens outside and start getting ready to put in the starts mid-May.   Nah... I think I'll go to the Hummer store and see if the prices are finally down enough that I can finally trade my 30 yr old 40MPG Civic in on...  I deserve to ride in style.  I am, after all, one of Mother Nature's most special children! Gas is hovering at $2...  no big deal.  And the produce section is *full* of great green goodness shipped halfway across the planet, all shiny and wrapped up in cellophane, much prettier than anything I could grow myself. What was I thinking?  Articles on big thinkers like Dyson get me all nostalgic sometimes.

Besides, I need to work on the mathematics to see if my version of the Dyson Sphere will remain solar-stationary based on the "solar wind" alone, and what angular velocity I need to provide 1G, and whether the resulting coriolis forces will mess with my head.   I guess I should go back and read Niven's RingWorld again for some pointers.   What are we going to use to replace the magnetic field to deflect the "bad rays" and where will they go?  Oh shit!  I think we just created a giant Cavitron!  No wonder there are so many pulsars in the known universe... they are just all of the civilizations who survived their own nonsense long enough to turn their solar system into a giant Cavitron spewing beams of intense energy around the Universe as cautionary beacons for the rest of us.

Ahhhhhhhhyeeeeeeee!

- Steven Angsty Smith
Homo Sapiens Exploitatus ExtraOrdinaire

That's a funny coincidence ... I am reading it just now.

I'm always glad to come across another skeptic on anthropogenic global warming, particularly from someone with such strong credentials.  The sustained level of pervasive hand-wrangling on this issue is quite worrisome.  The actions that some are proposing to curb carbon emissions is far out of line relative to the level of uncertainty that still exists, and I think it likely that a stiff carbon tax of some sort will do much more harm than good.

And I do get tired of the badly written articles one finds on this subject in the press.  The level of blind acceptance among the press corp is rather reminiscent of those covering the Bush white house.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.  I have seen a slight uptick in skeptical writings over the last year or so on AGW, so maybe we have started to turn the corner on this issue.  One can hope.

Cheers,

Ted

*I didn't just drop a bomb, did I?

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

While we are at it, did anybody read about Freeman Dyson in the Times Mag today?  What did you think?


============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
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Re: Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

Nick Thompson
Steve S.,
 
Now I KNOW you should write an op=ed for the Times.   Or better still, the NEW YORKER. 
 
The Liberal's Contract with the world:  "You let me do to you whatever I want, and in return I give you my guilt."
 
Another Liberal fallacy:  "As long as I have contempt for myself, I get to have contempt for you"
 
These are habits of mind I both deplore and indulge in myself  in the same sentences.   In fact, in those very sentences. 
 
But when I am trying to be serious, I return to the existentialism that I was braised in as a kid.:  Choosing is what humans do; we have to take our best shot!  And if our best science tells us (1) that global warming may be a terrible problem and (2) that we wont know if it is a terrible problem until after it is too late to do something, then we ==>must<== take a crack at solving the problem. 
 
Note the use of modal language!  ("==>must<==")  Anytime somebody uses modal language, they have entered into the world of values ... have, in fact, taken leave of their sense, gone mad!.  I cannot argue for "taking our best shot".  I just believe that as humans we "should" do it, and hope that you will join me in this belief, because I would rather be mad together than mad alone.  This is the best rationale I can muster for supporting Anti-global warming measures. 
 
To be serious, we have to escape irony; to escape irony, we have to go mad.    The solution is that easy.   
 
Nick  
 
 
 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 3/30/2009 12:41:38 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

In the spirit of avoiding deadlines by reading things I don't have time for and writing things I probably should delete before sending, or better yet, not bother to write:

I have a love/hate relationship with Freeman Dyson and his work and legacy.

I have a love/hate relationship (quite parallel actually) with Global Climate Change.

I'm a human-chauvanist (in the sense of Robert Heinlein) and I loathe myself for it.

I'm a bleeding heart liberal humanist (in the sense of many of us on this list) and I loathe myself for it.

Yes Nick, it is time for another huge helping of starchy, fatty, Ennui, liberally drizzled with rich, spicy Angst:

I think it is horribly/wonderfully arrogant of us to think we can do anything of consequence to this planet.   But then "what means consequence"?  After all, even our most devastating nuclear holocaust would look like a drop in the bucket compared to one good impactor from space (or any other historical Extinction Event).   And at the same time, there is some evidence that humans, at the end of the last ice age managed to wipe out most of the megafauna (where did those mastadons, giant tree sloths, dire wolves and sabertooth cats go anyway?) on the planet, sparing only those in Africa who (apparently?) adapted to our enhanced predatory (neolithic?) capabilities as fast as we developed new ones?

Mother Nature is not really that nice to her children (and I think of us as some of her most precocious brats to date), starting as early as the Siderian period, the rise (and cum-uppance) of the Oxygen Extinction.  Stupid Photosynthesizers... didn't they know when to quit?  And look what they ushered in, Oxygen Metabolizers that could run circles around them, gobble them up like so much fodder and shit them out.   The over-zealousness of the photosynthesizers lead to the creation of their own new masters, the oxygen-eating herbivores who in turn provided a substrate for the carnivores, which collectively provide a great playground for Homo Sapiens Exploitatus (read Genesis and talk to some fundamentalist Christians if you don't think this planet was designed to be our playground).

Like members of the pantheon of Greek (and Roman and Norse) Gods, Ma Nature gives us the rope to hang ourselves, lets us stew in our own juices, offers us the best of all parental benefits: "benign neglect".   Those cigarette burns on our cheeks?  That just comes from not being careful enough around adults smoking cigarettes at a cocktail party (gesticulating wildly in their drunken exuberence).   Only the slow and dull-witted let that happen more than once.  Thanks Ma, you are right... I'll be more careful next time... and thanks again for the chemistry set you gave me for Xmas and the big box of matches!  Have a nice party.

Whether Al Gore (and the many very serious scientists he quotes, or the many Chicken Littles who flock to him) are correct or not, I am not sure.   My human-centric arrogance loves the idea that in 100+ years of industrial activity we have been able to kick the planet's ecological and climatological balance so far out of whack that we might not recover.  My (somewhat more humble) humanist side abhors that we can so blithely set the planet on fire (metaphorically) with little thought to the consequence to all the cute little baby seals and our cute little grandchildren and their even cuter grandchildren (if we, the species last that long).

Dyson is not only a deep thinker, but also a grand thinker.   What could something as mundane as "Global Climate Change" mean to someone who has proposed collecting up all of the planetary and asteroidal material in the solar system to create a perfect shell at the optimal distance from the sun to create a perfect "inside out" planet, intercepting every bit of radiation energy leaving the sun.   If it were set at 1 AU, to simulate the solar flux of earth (how terra-centric can we get?) we get a surface something like 55 million (~2^16 ) times that of earth.   The total energy output of the sun is about 2^43 times our current use.   All the engineering problems aside (hah!) we have a theoretical maximum in this solar system (unless we decided we needed to boost the rate of fusion in the sun, if we could) of at least 55 million times as many people consuming trillions as many times as much energy per capita (put your money back in GM/Hummer stock)!   Given that we would be living on a shell whose "other side" (a few meters or kilometers away?) we might even be able to make much more efficient use of the solar flux than we do now, restricted by having to create/find gradients in our closed little atmospheric and oceanic shell.  Imagine the entire surface of the sphere a huge set of valved heat-pipes just waiting to provide thermal gradients for optimal energy utilization to do useful work!  Imagine all that "useful work"!  Oh the things we could do!

Of course Dyson scoffs at our fears of global warming, and suggests we bio-engineer forests to sequester carbon.   He might even be right (that we have the wherewithal to do such).   And if we start doubling our population every 30 years right away, we can have the population necessary to maximally use the Dyson Sphere in a mere 11 generations (330 years!) (check my math guys).   We'd better quit worrying about minor problems like rising sea levels and desertification of the interior of north America and get cracking on the really hard problems like how to gather up and reshape all the non-solar matter in the solar system.   Better kick a few Obama Bucks into Space Technology, hell kick them all in!

So, is anthropogenic global climate change real?  I fear it is.  I hope it isn't.  What I'm equally disturbed about is that *we can't tell!*.  I don't mean that the climate change scientists don't have really good data and even good models (ice cores from antartica, greenland, etc.).  What I mean is that as a species, as a culture, we are so tangled up in our value system that something vaguely like half of us (well, half of those living in the US, or half of those in the 1st World) insist that *they know for a fact* that the *other half* are totally insane and being disagreeable for entirely specious and political reasons.   Half of us think the other half are trying to destroy the biosphere while the other half think that the *other* other half are trying to destroy the economy.  

Either way, everyone thinks everyone else is trying to destroy humanity (and life, the universe, and everything)!   If the stakes are this high, why are we screaming and running in every direction at once?  Wait... isn't that what we humans (primates, mammals, vertebrates) do?   What possible survival value is there in that?   The canoe is rocking and tipping madly and we are all rushing to see how far out the side we can hang our bodies to try to balance the "idiots" hanging out the other side.   Anyone who's fallen out of a canoe knows that a good strategy when things get tippy is to move to the center and drop down low, not shriek loudly as we manically try to obtain a dynamic balance with the other shrieking occupants.  

When the wildfire roars through the forest or prarie, the animals, great and small run blindly in all directions.   Those that run away from the fire, flush more, and give them a direction to run in.   The only thing a smoke-blinded panicked creature needs to know in a wildfire is to run like hell in the same direction everyone else around you is running (even if they are running in circles).  By the time the fire is about to consume you, this is a good strategy.  Back when it was just starting and you were (un)lucky enough to be near the front, this is as likely to get you killed immediately as it is to help you run in a direction where you get to have a chance of being killed slowly or maybe, just maybe, not at all.  We are the ones who started the fire (if there is one), isn't it amazing that some of us are eager to run right back into it and toss some  more accellerant on it?  Maybe it is just an illusion, a collective hallucination, and isn't it brave of those who run directly into it spraying volatile combustibles around like holy water?

In the spirit of hunkering down in the center of the canoe... I think I should dig out those 5 year old vegetable seeds and start patiently doing germination tests.  Then I should start preparing an area inside my south facing windows to sprout some starts.   In about a week, the soil will be ready for some light tilling and I could plant those peas and an early crop of greens outside and start getting ready to put in the starts mid-May.   Nah... I think I'll go to the Hummer store and see if the prices are finally down enough that I can finally trade my 30 yr old 40MPG Civic in on...  I deserve to ride in style.  I am, after all, one of Mother Nature's most special children! Gas is hovering at $2...  no big deal.  And the produce section is *full* of great green goodness shipped halfway across the planet, all shiny and wrapped up in cellophane, much prettier than anything I could grow myself. What was I thinking?  Articles on big thinkers like Dyson get me all nostalgic sometimes.

Besides, I need to work on the mathematics to see if my version of the Dyson Sphere will remain solar-stationary based on the "solar wind" alone, and what angular velocity I need to provide 1G, and whether the resulting coriolis forces will mess with my head.   I guess I should go back and read Niven's RingWorld again for some pointers.   What are we going to use to replace the magnetic field to deflect the "bad rays" and where will they go?  Oh shit!  I think we just created a giant Cavitron!  No wonder there are so many pulsars in the known universe... they are just all of the civilizations who survived their own nonsense long enough to turn their solar system into a giant Cavitron spewing beams of intense energy around the Universe as cautionary beacons for the rest of us.

Ahhhhhhhhyeeeeeeee!

- Steven Angsty Smith
Homo Sapiens Exploitatus ExtraOrdinaire

That's a funny coincidence ... I am reading it just now.

I'm always glad to come across another skeptic on anthropogenic global warming, particularly from someone with such strong credentials.  The sustained level of pervasive hand-wrangling on this issue is quite worrisome.  The actions that some are proposing to curb carbon emissions is far out of line relative to the level of uncertainty that still exists, and I think it likely that a stiff carbon tax of some sort will do much more harm than good.

And I do get tired of the badly written articles one finds on this subject in the press.  The level of blind acceptance among the press corp is rather reminiscent of those covering the Bush white house.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.  I have seen a slight uptick in skeptical writings over the last year or so on AGW, so maybe we have started to turn the corner on this issue.  One can hope.

Cheers,

Ted

*I didn't just drop a bomb, did I?

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

While we are at it, did anybody read about Freeman Dyson in the Times Mag today?  What did you think?


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
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Re: Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

Douglas Roberts-2
Excuse me, but what, exactly, does this have to do with rutabagas?



On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Steve S.,
 
Now I KNOW you should write an op=ed for the Times.   Or better still, the NEW YORKER. 
 
The Liberal's Contract with the world:  "You let me do to you whatever I want, and in return I give you my guilt."
 
Another Liberal fallacy:  "As long as I have contempt for myself, I get to have contempt for you"
 
These are habits of mind I both deplore and indulge in myself  in the same sentences.   In fact, in those very sentences. 
 
But when I am trying to be serious, I return to the existentialism that I was braised in as a kid.:  Choosing is what humans do; we have to take our best shot!  And if our best science tells us (1) that global warming may be a terrible problem and (2) that we wont know if it is a terrible problem until after it is too late to do something, then we ==>must<== take a crack at solving the problem. 
 
Note the use of modal language!  ("==>must<==")  Anytime somebody uses modal language, they have entered into the world of values ... have, in fact, taken leave of their sense, gone mad!.  I cannot argue for "taking our best shot".  I just believe that as humans we "should" do it, and hope that you will join me in this belief, because I would rather be mad together than mad alone.  This is the best rationale I can muster for supporting Anti-global warming measures. 
 
To be serious, we have to escape irony; to escape irony, we have to go mad.    The solution is that easy.   
 
Nick  
 
 
 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 3/30/2009 12:41:38 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

In the spirit of avoiding deadlines by reading things I don't have time for and writing things I probably should delete before sending, or better yet, not bother to write:

I have a love/hate relationship with Freeman Dyson and his work and legacy.

I have a love/hate relationship (quite parallel actually) with Global Climate Change.

I'm a human-chauvanist (in the sense of Robert Heinlein) and I loathe myself for it.

I'm a bleeding heart liberal humanist (in the sense of many of us on this list) and I loathe myself for it.

Yes Nick, it is time for another huge helping of starchy, fatty, Ennui, liberally drizzled with rich, spicy Angst:

I think it is horribly/wonderfully arrogant of us to think we can do anything of consequence to this planet.   But then "what means consequence"?  After all, even our most devastating nuclear holocaust would look like a drop in the bucket compared to one good impactor from space (or any other historical Extinction Event).   And at the same time, there is some evidence that humans, at the end of the last ice age managed to wipe out most of the megafauna (where did those mastadons, giant tree sloths, dire wolves and sabertooth cats go anyway?) on the planet, sparing only those in Africa who (apparently?) adapted to our enhanced predatory (neolithic?) capabilities as fast as we developed new ones?

Mother Nature is not really that nice to her children (and I think of us as some of her most precocious brats to date), starting as early as the Siderian period, the rise (and cum-uppance) of the Oxygen Extinction.  Stupid Photosynthesizers... didn't they know when to quit?  And look what they ushered in, Oxygen Metabolizers that could run circles around them, gobble them up like so much fodder and shit them out.   The over-zealousness of the photosynthesizers lead to the creation of their own new masters, the oxygen-eating herbivores who in turn provided a substrate for the carnivores, which collectively provide a great playground for Homo Sapiens Exploitatus (read Genesis and talk to some fundamentalist Christians if you don't think this planet was designed to be our playground).

Like members of the pantheon of Greek (and Roman and Norse) Gods, Ma Nature gives us the rope to hang ourselves, lets us stew in our own juices, offers us the best of all parental benefits: "benign neglect".   Those cigarette burns on our cheeks?  That just comes from not being careful enough around adults smoking cigarettes at a cocktail party (gesticulating wildly in their drunken exuberence).   Only the slow and dull-witted let that happen more than once.  Thanks Ma, you are right... I'll be more careful next time... and thanks again for the chemistry set you gave me for Xmas and the big box of matches!  Have a nice party.

Whether Al Gore (and the many very serious scientists he quotes, or the many Chicken Littles who flock to him) are correct or not, I am not sure.   My human-centric arrogance loves the idea that in 100+ years of industrial activity we have been able to kick the planet's ecological and climatological balance so far out of whack that we might not recover.  My (somewhat more humble) humanist side abhors that we can so blithely set the planet on fire (metaphorically) with little thought to the consequence to all the cute little baby seals and our cute little grandchildren and their even cuter grandchildren (if we, the species last that long).

Dyson is not only a deep thinker, but also a grand thinker.   What could something as mundane as "Global Climate Change" mean to someone who has proposed collecting up all of the planetary and asteroidal material in the solar system to create a perfect shell at the optimal distance from the sun to create a perfect "inside out" planet, intercepting every bit of radiation energy leaving the sun.   If it were set at 1 AU, to simulate the solar flux of earth (how terra-centric can we get?) we get a surface something like 55 million (~2^16 ) times that of earth.   The total energy output of the sun is about 2^43 times our current use.   All the engineering problems aside (hah!) we have a theoretical maximum in this solar system (unless we decided we needed to boost the rate of fusion in the sun, if we could) of at least 55 million times as many people consuming trillions as many times as much energy per capita (put your money back in GM/Hummer stock)!   Given that we would be living on a shell whose "other side" (a few meters or kilometers away?) we might even be able to make much more efficient use of the solar flux than we do now, restricted by having to create/find gradients in our closed little atmospheric and oceanic shell.  Imagine the entire surface of the sphere a huge set of valved heat-pipes just waiting to provide thermal gradients for optimal energy utilization to do useful work!  Imagine all that "useful work"!  Oh the things we could do!

Of course Dyson scoffs at our fears of global warming, and suggests we bio-engineer forests to sequester carbon.   He might even be right (that we have the wherewithal to do such).   And if we start doubling our population every 30 years right away, we can have the population necessary to maximally use the Dyson Sphere in a mere 11 generations (330 years!) (check my math guys).   We'd better quit worrying about minor problems like rising sea levels and desertification of the interior of north America and get cracking on the really hard problems like how to gather up and reshape all the non-solar matter in the solar system.   Better kick a few Obama Bucks into Space Technology, hell kick them all in!

So, is anthropogenic global climate change real?  I fear it is.  I hope it isn't.  What I'm equally disturbed about is that *we can't tell!*.  I don't mean that the climate change scientists don't have really good data and even good models (ice cores from antartica, greenland, etc.).  What I mean is that as a species, as a culture, we are so tangled up in our value system that something vaguely like half of us (well, half of those living in the US, or half of those in the 1st World) insist that *they know for a fact* that the *other half* are totally insane and being disagreeable for entirely specious and political reasons.   Half of us think the other half are trying to destroy the biosphere while the other half think that the *other* other half are trying to destroy the economy.  

Either way, everyone thinks everyone else is trying to destroy humanity (and life, the universe, and everything)!   If the stakes are this high, why are we screaming and running in every direction at once?  Wait... isn't that what we humans (primates, mammals, vertebrates) do?   What possible survival value is there in that?   The canoe is rocking and tipping madly and we are all rushing to see how far out the side we can hang our bodies to try to balance the "idiots" hanging out the other side.   Anyone who's fallen out of a canoe knows that a good strategy when things get tippy is to move to the center and drop down low, not shriek loudly as we manically try to obtain a dynamic balance with the other shrieking occupants.  

When the wildfire roars through the forest or prarie, the animals, great and small run blindly in all directions.   Those that run away from the fire, flush more, and give them a direction to run in.   The only thing a smoke-blinded panicked creature needs to know in a wildfire is to run like hell in the same direction everyone else around you is running (even if they are running in circles).  By the time the fire is about to consume you, this is a good strategy.  Back when it was just starting and you were (un)lucky enough to be near the front, this is as likely to get you killed immediately as it is to help you run in a direction where you get to have a chance of being killed slowly or maybe, just maybe, not at all.  We are the ones who started the fire (if there is one), isn't it amazing that some of us are eager to run right back into it and toss some  more accellerant on it?  Maybe it is just an illusion, a collective hallucination, and isn't it brave of those who run directly into it spraying volatile combustibles around like holy water?

In the spirit of hunkering down in the center of the canoe... I think I should dig out those 5 year old vegetable seeds and start patiently doing germination tests.  Then I should start preparing an area inside my south facing windows to sprout some starts.   In about a week, the soil will be ready for some light tilling and I could plant those peas and an early crop of greens outside and start getting ready to put in the starts mid-May.   Nah... I think I'll go to the Hummer store and see if the prices are finally down enough that I can finally trade my 30 yr old 40MPG Civic in on...  I deserve to ride in style.  I am, after all, one of Mother Nature's most special children! Gas is hovering at $2...  no big deal.  And the produce section is *full* of great green goodness shipped halfway across the planet, all shiny and wrapped up in cellophane, much prettier than anything I could grow myself. What was I thinking?  Articles on big thinkers like Dyson get me all nostalgic sometimes.

Besides, I need to work on the mathematics to see if my version of the Dyson Sphere will remain solar-stationary based on the "solar wind" alone, and what angular velocity I need to provide 1G, and whether the resulting coriolis forces will mess with my head.   I guess I should go back and read Niven's RingWorld again for some pointers.   What are we going to use to replace the magnetic field to deflect the "bad rays" and where will they go?  Oh shit!  I think we just created a giant Cavitron!  No wonder there are so many pulsars in the known universe... they are just all of the civilizations who survived their own nonsense long enough to turn their solar system into a giant Cavitron spewing beams of intense energy around the Universe as cautionary beacons for the rest of us.

Ahhhhhhhhyeeeeeeee!

- Steven Angsty Smith
Homo Sapiens Exploitatus ExtraOrdinaire

That's a funny coincidence ... I am reading it just now.

I'm always glad to come across another skeptic on anthropogenic global warming, particularly from someone with such strong credentials.  The sustained level of pervasive hand-wrangling on this issue is quite worrisome.  The actions that some are proposing to curb carbon emissions is far out of line relative to the level of uncertainty that still exists, and I think it likely that a stiff carbon tax of some sort will do much more harm than good.

And I do get tired of the badly written articles one finds on this subject in the press.  The level of blind acceptance among the press corp is rather reminiscent of those covering the Bush white house.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.  I have seen a slight uptick in skeptical writings over the last year or so on AGW, so maybe we have started to turn the corner on this issue.  One can hope.

Cheers,

Ted

*I didn't just drop a bomb, did I?

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

While we are at it, did anybody read about Freeman Dyson in the Times Mag today?  What did you think?


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org


============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

Ted Carmichael
Ah, I think Doug has gotten to the root of the problem.

-T

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
Excuse me, but what, exactly, does this have to do with rutabagas?



On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Steve S.,
 
Now I KNOW you should write an op=ed for the Times.   Or better still, the NEW YORKER. 
 
The Liberal's Contract with the world:  "You let me do to you whatever I want, and in return I give you my guilt."
 
Another Liberal fallacy:  "As long as I have contempt for myself, I get to have contempt for you"
 
These are habits of mind I both deplore and indulge in myself  in the same sentences.   In fact, in those very sentences. 
 
But when I am trying to be serious, I return to the existentialism that I was braised in as a kid.:  Choosing is what humans do; we have to take our best shot!  And if our best science tells us (1) that global warming may be a terrible problem and (2) that we wont know if it is a terrible problem until after it is too late to do something, then we ==>must<== take a crack at solving the problem. 
 
Note the use of modal language!  ("==>must<==")  Anytime somebody uses modal language, they have entered into the world of values ... have, in fact, taken leave of their sense, gone mad!.  I cannot argue for "taking our best shot".  I just believe that as humans we "should" do it, and hope that you will join me in this belief, because I would rather be mad together than mad alone.  This is the best rationale I can muster for supporting Anti-global warming measures. 
 
To be serious, we have to escape irony; to escape irony, we have to go mad.    The solution is that easy.   
 
Nick  
 
 
 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 3/30/2009 12:41:38 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

In the spirit of avoiding deadlines by reading things I don't have time for and writing things I probably should delete before sending, or better yet, not bother to write:

I have a love/hate relationship with Freeman Dyson and his work and legacy.

I have a love/hate relationship (quite parallel actually) with Global Climate Change.

I'm a human-chauvanist (in the sense of Robert Heinlein) and I loathe myself for it.

I'm a bleeding heart liberal humanist (in the sense of many of us on this list) and I loathe myself for it.

Yes Nick, it is time for another huge helping of starchy, fatty, Ennui, liberally drizzled with rich, spicy Angst:

I think it is horribly/wonderfully arrogant of us to think we can do anything of consequence to this planet.   But then "what means consequence"?  After all, even our most devastating nuclear holocaust would look like a drop in the bucket compared to one good impactor from space (or any other historical Extinction Event).   And at the same time, there is some evidence that humans, at the end of the last ice age managed to wipe out most of the megafauna (where did those mastadons, giant tree sloths, dire wolves and sabertooth cats go anyway?) on the planet, sparing only those in Africa who (apparently?) adapted to our enhanced predatory (neolithic?) capabilities as fast as we developed new ones?

Mother Nature is not really that nice to her children (and I think of us as some of her most precocious brats to date), starting as early as the Siderian period, the rise (and cum-uppance) of the Oxygen Extinction.  Stupid Photosynthesizers... didn't they know when to quit?  And look what they ushered in, Oxygen Metabolizers that could run circles around them, gobble them up like so much fodder and shit them out.   The over-zealousness of the photosynthesizers lead to the creation of their own new masters, the oxygen-eating herbivores who in turn provided a substrate for the carnivores, which collectively provide a great playground for Homo Sapiens Exploitatus (read Genesis and talk to some fundamentalist Christians if you don't think this planet was designed to be our playground).

Like members of the pantheon of Greek (and Roman and Norse) Gods, Ma Nature gives us the rope to hang ourselves, lets us stew in our own juices, offers us the best of all parental benefits: "benign neglect".   Those cigarette burns on our cheeks?  That just comes from not being careful enough around adults smoking cigarettes at a cocktail party (gesticulating wildly in their drunken exuberence).   Only the slow and dull-witted let that happen more than once.  Thanks Ma, you are right... I'll be more careful next time... and thanks again for the chemistry set you gave me for Xmas and the big box of matches!  Have a nice party.

Whether Al Gore (and the many very serious scientists he quotes, or the many Chicken Littles who flock to him) are correct or not, I am not sure.   My human-centric arrogance loves the idea that in 100+ years of industrial activity we have been able to kick the planet's ecological and climatological balance so far out of whack that we might not recover.  My (somewhat more humble) humanist side abhors that we can so blithely set the planet on fire (metaphorically) with little thought to the consequence to all the cute little baby seals and our cute little grandchildren and their even cuter grandchildren (if we, the species last that long).

Dyson is not only a deep thinker, but also a grand thinker.   What could something as mundane as "Global Climate Change" mean to someone who has proposed collecting up all of the planetary and asteroidal material in the solar system to create a perfect shell at the optimal distance from the sun to create a perfect "inside out" planet, intercepting every bit of radiation energy leaving the sun.   If it were set at 1 AU, to simulate the solar flux of earth (how terra-centric can we get?) we get a surface something like 55 million (~2^16 ) times that of earth.   The total energy output of the sun is about 2^43 times our current use.   All the engineering problems aside (hah!) we have a theoretical maximum in this solar system (unless we decided we needed to boost the rate of fusion in the sun, if we could) of at least 55 million times as many people consuming trillions as many times as much energy per capita (put your money back in GM/Hummer stock)!   Given that we would be living on a shell whose "other side" (a few meters or kilometers away?) we might even be able to make much more efficient use of the solar flux than we do now, restricted by having to create/find gradients in our closed little atmospheric and oceanic shell.  Imagine the entire surface of the sphere a huge set of valved heat-pipes just waiting to provide thermal gradients for optimal energy utilization to do useful work!  Imagine all that "useful work"!  Oh the things we could do!

Of course Dyson scoffs at our fears of global warming, and suggests we bio-engineer forests to sequester carbon.   He might even be right (that we have the wherewithal to do such).   And if we start doubling our population every 30 years right away, we can have the population necessary to maximally use the Dyson Sphere in a mere 11 generations (330 years!) (check my math guys).   We'd better quit worrying about minor problems like rising sea levels and desertification of the interior of north America and get cracking on the really hard problems like how to gather up and reshape all the non-solar matter in the solar system.   Better kick a few Obama Bucks into Space Technology, hell kick them all in!

So, is anthropogenic global climate change real?  I fear it is.  I hope it isn't.  What I'm equally disturbed about is that *we can't tell!*.  I don't mean that the climate change scientists don't have really good data and even good models (ice cores from antartica, greenland, etc.).  What I mean is that as a species, as a culture, we are so tangled up in our value system that something vaguely like half of us (well, half of those living in the US, or half of those in the 1st World) insist that *they know for a fact* that the *other half* are totally insane and being disagreeable for entirely specious and political reasons.   Half of us think the other half are trying to destroy the biosphere while the other half think that the *other* other half are trying to destroy the economy.  

Either way, everyone thinks everyone else is trying to destroy humanity (and life, the universe, and everything)!   If the stakes are this high, why are we screaming and running in every direction at once?  Wait... isn't that what we humans (primates, mammals, vertebrates) do?   What possible survival value is there in that?   The canoe is rocking and tipping madly and we are all rushing to see how far out the side we can hang our bodies to try to balance the "idiots" hanging out the other side.   Anyone who's fallen out of a canoe knows that a good strategy when things get tippy is to move to the center and drop down low, not shriek loudly as we manically try to obtain a dynamic balance with the other shrieking occupants.  

When the wildfire roars through the forest or prarie, the animals, great and small run blindly in all directions.   Those that run away from the fire, flush more, and give them a direction to run in.   The only thing a smoke-blinded panicked creature needs to know in a wildfire is to run like hell in the same direction everyone else around you is running (even if they are running in circles).  By the time the fire is about to consume you, this is a good strategy.  Back when it was just starting and you were (un)lucky enough to be near the front, this is as likely to get you killed immediately as it is to help you run in a direction where you get to have a chance of being killed slowly or maybe, just maybe, not at all.  We are the ones who started the fire (if there is one), isn't it amazing that some of us are eager to run right back into it and toss some  more accellerant on it?  Maybe it is just an illusion, a collective hallucination, and isn't it brave of those who run directly into it spraying volatile combustibles around like holy water?

In the spirit of hunkering down in the center of the canoe... I think I should dig out those 5 year old vegetable seeds and start patiently doing germination tests.  Then I should start preparing an area inside my south facing windows to sprout some starts.   In about a week, the soil will be ready for some light tilling and I could plant those peas and an early crop of greens outside and start getting ready to put in the starts mid-May.   Nah... I think I'll go to the Hummer store and see if the prices are finally down enough that I can finally trade my 30 yr old 40MPG Civic in on...  I deserve to ride in style.  I am, after all, one of Mother Nature's most special children! Gas is hovering at $2...  no big deal.  And the produce section is *full* of great green goodness shipped halfway across the planet, all shiny and wrapped up in cellophane, much prettier than anything I could grow myself. What was I thinking?  Articles on big thinkers like Dyson get me all nostalgic sometimes.

Besides, I need to work on the mathematics to see if my version of the Dyson Sphere will remain solar-stationary based on the "solar wind" alone, and what angular velocity I need to provide 1G, and whether the resulting coriolis forces will mess with my head.   I guess I should go back and read Niven's RingWorld again for some pointers.   What are we going to use to replace the magnetic field to deflect the "bad rays" and where will they go?  Oh shit!  I think we just created a giant Cavitron!  No wonder there are so many pulsars in the known universe... they are just all of the civilizations who survived their own nonsense long enough to turn their solar system into a giant Cavitron spewing beams of intense energy around the Universe as cautionary beacons for the rest of us.

Ahhhhhhhhyeeeeeeee!

- Steven Angsty Smith
Homo Sapiens Exploitatus ExtraOrdinaire

That's a funny coincidence ... I am reading it just now.

I'm always glad to come across another skeptic on anthropogenic global warming, particularly from someone with such strong credentials.  The sustained level of pervasive hand-wrangling on this issue is quite worrisome.  The actions that some are proposing to curb carbon emissions is far out of line relative to the level of uncertainty that still exists, and I think it likely that a stiff carbon tax of some sort will do much more harm than good.

And I do get tired of the badly written articles one finds on this subject in the press.  The level of blind acceptance among the press corp is rather reminiscent of those covering the Bush white house.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.  I have seen a slight uptick in skeptical writings over the last year or so on AGW, so maybe we have started to turn the corner on this issue.  One can hope.

Cheers,

Ted

*I didn't just drop a bomb, did I?

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

While we are at it, did anybody read about Freeman Dyson in the Times Mag today?  What did you think?


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
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Re: Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

Douglas Roberts-2
Ok, enough yammering about rutabagas.  I don't carrot all for this line of discussion. 

Promiscuous potatoes, on the other hand...

Two potatoes sitting one the counter.  How can you tell which  is the prostitute?

The one that says Idaho.

Bada Bing.

Profuse apologies; it's been a long day.

--Doug

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Ted Carmichael <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ah, I think Doug has gotten to the root of the problem.

-T


On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
Excuse me, but what, exactly, does this have to do with rutabagas?



On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Steve S.,
 
Now I KNOW you should write an op=ed for the Times.   Or better still, the NEW YORKER. 
 
The Liberal's Contract with the world:  "You let me do to you whatever I want, and in return I give you my guilt."
 
Another Liberal fallacy:  "As long as I have contempt for myself, I get to have contempt for you"
 
These are habits of mind I both deplore and indulge in myself  in the same sentences.   In fact, in those very sentences. 
 
But when I am trying to be serious, I return to the existentialism that I was braised in as a kid.:  Choosing is what humans do; we have to take our best shot!  And if our best science tells us (1) that global warming may be a terrible problem and (2) that we wont know if it is a terrible problem until after it is too late to do something, then we ==>must<== take a crack at solving the problem. 
 
Note the use of modal language!  ("==>must<==")  Anytime somebody uses modal language, they have entered into the world of values ... have, in fact, taken leave of their sense, gone mad!.  I cannot argue for "taking our best shot".  I just believe that as humans we "should" do it, and hope that you will join me in this belief, because I would rather be mad together than mad alone.  This is the best rationale I can muster for supporting Anti-global warming measures. 
 
To be serious, we have to escape irony; to escape irony, we have to go mad.    The solution is that easy.   
 
Nick  
 
 
 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 3/30/2009 12:41:38 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

In the spirit of avoiding deadlines by reading things I don't have time for and writing things I probably should delete before sending, or better yet, not bother to write:

I have a love/hate relationship with Freeman Dyson and his work and legacy.

I have a love/hate relationship (quite parallel actually) with Global Climate Change.

I'm a human-chauvanist (in the sense of Robert Heinlein) and I loathe myself for it.

I'm a bleeding heart liberal humanist (in the sense of many of us on this list) and I loathe myself for it.

Yes Nick, it is time for another huge helping of starchy, fatty, Ennui, liberally drizzled with rich, spicy Angst:

I think it is horribly/wonderfully arrogant of us to think we can do anything of consequence to this planet.   But then "what means consequence"?  After all, even our most devastating nuclear holocaust would look like a drop in the bucket compared to one good impactor from space (or any other historical Extinction Event).   And at the same time, there is some evidence that humans, at the end of the last ice age managed to wipe out most of the megafauna (where did those mastadons, giant tree sloths, dire wolves and sabertooth cats go anyway?) on the planet, sparing only those in Africa who (apparently?) adapted to our enhanced predatory (neolithic?) capabilities as fast as we developed new ones?

Mother Nature is not really that nice to her children (and I think of us as some of her most precocious brats to date), starting as early as the Siderian period, the rise (and cum-uppance) of the Oxygen Extinction.  Stupid Photosynthesizers... didn't they know when to quit?  And look what they ushered in, Oxygen Metabolizers that could run circles around them, gobble them up like so much fodder and shit them out.   The over-zealousness of the photosynthesizers lead to the creation of their own new masters, the oxygen-eating herbivores who in turn provided a substrate for the carnivores, which collectively provide a great playground for Homo Sapiens Exploitatus (read Genesis and talk to some fundamentalist Christians if you don't think this planet was designed to be our playground).

Like members of the pantheon of Greek (and Roman and Norse) Gods, Ma Nature gives us the rope to hang ourselves, lets us stew in our own juices, offers us the best of all parental benefits: "benign neglect".   Those cigarette burns on our cheeks?  That just comes from not being careful enough around adults smoking cigarettes at a cocktail party (gesticulating wildly in their drunken exuberence).   Only the slow and dull-witted let that happen more than once.  Thanks Ma, you are right... I'll be more careful next time... and thanks again for the chemistry set you gave me for Xmas and the big box of matches!  Have a nice party.

Whether Al Gore (and the many very serious scientists he quotes, or the many Chicken Littles who flock to him) are correct or not, I am not sure.   My human-centric arrogance loves the idea that in 100+ years of industrial activity we have been able to kick the planet's ecological and climatological balance so far out of whack that we might not recover.  My (somewhat more humble) humanist side abhors that we can so blithely set the planet on fire (metaphorically) with little thought to the consequence to all the cute little baby seals and our cute little grandchildren and their even cuter grandchildren (if we, the species last that long).

Dyson is not only a deep thinker, but also a grand thinker.   What could something as mundane as "Global Climate Change" mean to someone who has proposed collecting up all of the planetary and asteroidal material in the solar system to create a perfect shell at the optimal distance from the sun to create a perfect "inside out" planet, intercepting every bit of radiation energy leaving the sun.   If it were set at 1 AU, to simulate the solar flux of earth (how terra-centric can we get?) we get a surface something like 55 million (~2^16 ) times that of earth.   The total energy output of the sun is about 2^43 times our current use.   All the engineering problems aside (hah!) we have a theoretical maximum in this solar system (unless we decided we needed to boost the rate of fusion in the sun, if we could) of at least 55 million times as many people consuming trillions as many times as much energy per capita (put your money back in GM/Hummer stock)!   Given that we would be living on a shell whose "other side" (a few meters or kilometers away?) we might even be able to make much more efficient use of the solar flux than we do now, restricted by having to create/find gradients in our closed little atmospheric and oceanic shell.  Imagine the entire surface of the sphere a huge set of valved heat-pipes just waiting to provide thermal gradients for optimal energy utilization to do useful work!  Imagine all that "useful work"!  Oh the things we could do!

Of course Dyson scoffs at our fears of global warming, and suggests we bio-engineer forests to sequester carbon.   He might even be right (that we have the wherewithal to do such).   And if we start doubling our population every 30 years right away, we can have the population necessary to maximally use the Dyson Sphere in a mere 11 generations (330 years!) (check my math guys).   We'd better quit worrying about minor problems like rising sea levels and desertification of the interior of north America and get cracking on the really hard problems like how to gather up and reshape all the non-solar matter in the solar system.   Better kick a few Obama Bucks into Space Technology, hell kick them all in!

So, is anthropogenic global climate change real?  I fear it is.  I hope it isn't.  What I'm equally disturbed about is that *we can't tell!*.  I don't mean that the climate change scientists don't have really good data and even good models (ice cores from antartica, greenland, etc.).  What I mean is that as a species, as a culture, we are so tangled up in our value system that something vaguely like half of us (well, half of those living in the US, or half of those in the 1st World) insist that *they know for a fact* that the *other half* are totally insane and being disagreeable for entirely specious and political reasons.   Half of us think the other half are trying to destroy the biosphere while the other half think that the *other* other half are trying to destroy the economy.  

Either way, everyone thinks everyone else is trying to destroy humanity (and life, the universe, and everything)!   If the stakes are this high, why are we screaming and running in every direction at once?  Wait... isn't that what we humans (primates, mammals, vertebrates) do?   What possible survival value is there in that?   The canoe is rocking and tipping madly and we are all rushing to see how far out the side we can hang our bodies to try to balance the "idiots" hanging out the other side.   Anyone who's fallen out of a canoe knows that a good strategy when things get tippy is to move to the center and drop down low, not shriek loudly as we manically try to obtain a dynamic balance with the other shrieking occupants.  

When the wildfire roars through the forest or prarie, the animals, great and small run blindly in all directions.   Those that run away from the fire, flush more, and give them a direction to run in.   The only thing a smoke-blinded panicked creature needs to know in a wildfire is to run like hell in the same direction everyone else around you is running (even if they are running in circles).  By the time the fire is about to consume you, this is a good strategy.  Back when it was just starting and you were (un)lucky enough to be near the front, this is as likely to get you killed immediately as it is to help you run in a direction where you get to have a chance of being killed slowly or maybe, just maybe, not at all.  We are the ones who started the fire (if there is one), isn't it amazing that some of us are eager to run right back into it and toss some  more accellerant on it?  Maybe it is just an illusion, a collective hallucination, and isn't it brave of those who run directly into it spraying volatile combustibles around like holy water?

In the spirit of hunkering down in the center of the canoe... I think I should dig out those 5 year old vegetable seeds and start patiently doing germination tests.  Then I should start preparing an area inside my south facing windows to sprout some starts.   In about a week, the soil will be ready for some light tilling and I could plant those peas and an early crop of greens outside and start getting ready to put in the starts mid-May.   Nah... I think I'll go to the Hummer store and see if the prices are finally down enough that I can finally trade my 30 yr old 40MPG Civic in on...  I deserve to ride in style.  I am, after all, one of Mother Nature's most special children! Gas is hovering at $2...  no big deal.  And the produce section is *full* of great green goodness shipped halfway across the planet, all shiny and wrapped up in cellophane, much prettier than anything I could grow myself. What was I thinking?  Articles on big thinkers like Dyson get me all nostalgic sometimes.

Besides, I need to work on the mathematics to see if my version of the Dyson Sphere will remain solar-stationary based on the "solar wind" alone, and what angular velocity I need to provide 1G, and whether the resulting coriolis forces will mess with my head.   I guess I should go back and read Niven's RingWorld again for some pointers.   What are we going to use to replace the magnetic field to deflect the "bad rays" and where will they go?  Oh shit!  I think we just created a giant Cavitron!  No wonder there are so many pulsars in the known universe... they are just all of the civilizations who survived their own nonsense long enough to turn their solar system into a giant Cavitron spewing beams of intense energy around the Universe as cautionary beacons for the rest of us.

Ahhhhhhhhyeeeeeeee!

- Steven Angsty Smith
Homo Sapiens Exploitatus ExtraOrdinaire

That's a funny coincidence ... I am reading it just now.

I'm always glad to come across another skeptic on anthropogenic global warming, particularly from someone with such strong credentials.  The sustained level of pervasive hand-wrangling on this issue is quite worrisome.  The actions that some are proposing to curb carbon emissions is far out of line relative to the level of uncertainty that still exists, and I think it likely that a stiff carbon tax of some sort will do much more harm than good.

And I do get tired of the badly written articles one finds on this subject in the press.  The level of blind acceptance among the press corp is rather reminiscent of those covering the Bush white house.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.  I have seen a slight uptick in skeptical writings over the last year or so on AGW, so maybe we have started to turn the corner on this issue.  One can hope.

Cheers,

Ted

*I didn't just drop a bomb, did I?

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

While we are at it, did anybody read about Freeman Dyson in the Times Mag today?  What did you think?


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org




============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
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Re: Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

Nick Thompson
In reply to this post by Steve Smith
All right.  enough of this, guys.  Steve G. is going to blame me for starting this and exile me again.
 
Nick
 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 3/30/2009 3:58:44 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

Ok, enough yammering about rutabagas.  I don't carrot all for this line of discussion. 

Promiscuous potatoes, on the other hand...

Two potatoes sitting one the counter.  How can you tell which  is the prostitute?

The one that says Idaho.

Bada Bing.

Profuse apologies; it's been a long day.

--Doug

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Ted Carmichael <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ah, I think Doug has gotten to the root of the problem.

-T


On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
Excuse me, but what, exactly, does this have to do with rutabagas?



On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Steve S.,
 
Now I KNOW you should write an op=ed for the Times.   Or better still, the NEW YORKER. 
 
The Liberal's Contract with the world:  "You let me do to you whatever I want, and in return I give you my guilt."
 
Another Liberal fallacy:  "As long as I have contempt for myself, I get to have contempt for you"
 
These are habits of mind I both deplore and indulge in myself  in the same sentences.   In fact, in those very sentences. 
 
But when I am trying to be serious, I return to the existentialism that I was braised in as a kid.:  Choosing is what humans do; we have to take our best shot!  And if our best science tells us (1) that global warming may be a terrible problem and (2) that we wont know if it is a terrible problem until after it is too late to do something, then we ==>must<== take a crack at solving the problem. 
 
Note the use of modal language!  ("==>must<==")  Anytime somebody uses modal language, they have entered into the world of values ... have, in fact, taken leave of their sense, gone mad!.  I cannot argue for "taking our best shot".  I just believe that as humans we "should" do it, and hope that you will join me in this belief, because I would rather be mad together than mad alone.  This is the best rationale I can muster for supporting Anti-global warming measures. 
 
To be serious, we have to escape irony; to escape irony, we have to go mad.    The solution is that easy.   
 
Nick  
 
 
 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 3/30/2009 12:41:38 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

In the spirit of avoiding deadlines by reading things I don't have time for and writing things I probably should delete before sending, or better yet, not bother to write:

I have a love/hate relationship with Freeman Dyson and his work and legacy.

I have a love/hate relationship (quite parallel actually) with Global Climate Change.

I'm a human-chauvanist (in the sense of Robert Heinlein) and I loathe myself for it.

I'm a bleeding heart liberal humanist (in the sense of many of us on this list) and I loathe myself for it.

Yes Nick, it is time for another huge helping of starchy, fatty, Ennui, liberally drizzled with rich, spicy Angst:

I think it is horribly/wonderfully arrogant of us to think we can do anything of consequence to this planet.   But then "what means consequence"?  After all, even our most devastating nuclear holocaust would look like a drop in the bucket compared to one good impactor from space (or any other historical Extinction Event).   And at the same time, there is some evidence that humans, at the end of the last ice age managed to wipe out most of the megafauna (where did those mastadons, giant tree sloths, dire wolves and sabertooth cats go anyway?) on the planet, sparing only those in Africa who (apparently?) adapted to our enhanced predatory (neolithic?) capabilities as fast as we developed new ones?

Mother Nature is not really that nice to her children (and I think of us as some of her most precocious brats to date), starting as early as the Siderian period, the rise (and cum-uppance) of the Oxygen Extinction.  Stupid Photosynthesizers... didn't they know when to quit?  And look what they ushered in, Oxygen Metabolizers that could run circles around them, gobble them up like so much fodder and shit them out.   The over-zealousness of the photosynthesizers lead to the creation of their own new masters, the oxygen-eating herbivores who in turn provided a substrate for the carnivores, which collectively provide a great playground for Homo Sapiens Exploitatus (read Genesis and talk to some fundamentalist Christians if you don't think this planet was designed to be our playground).

Like members of the pantheon of Greek (and Roman and Norse) Gods, Ma Nature gives us the rope to hang ourselves, lets us stew in our own juices, offers us the best of all parental benefits: "benign neglect".   Those cigarette burns on our cheeks?  That just comes from not being careful enough around adults smoking cigarettes at a cocktail party (gesticulating wildly in their drunken exuberence).   Only the slow and dull-witted let that happen more than once.  Thanks Ma, you are right... I'll be more careful next time... and thanks again for the chemistry set you gave me for Xmas and the big box of matches!  Have a nice party.

Whether Al Gore (and the many very serious scientists he quotes, or the many Chicken Littles who flock to him) are correct or not, I am not sure.   My human-centric arrogance loves the idea that in 100+ years of industrial activity we have been able to kick the planet's ecological and climatological balance so far out of whack that we might not recover.  My (somewhat more humble) humanist side abhors that we can so blithely set the planet on fire (metaphorically) with little thought to the consequence to all the cute little baby seals and our cute little grandchildren and their even cuter grandchildren (if we, the species last that long).

Dyson is not only a deep thinker, but also a grand thinker.   What could something as mundane as "Global Climate Change" mean to someone who has proposed collecting up all of the planetary and asteroidal material in the solar system to create a perfect shell at the optimal distance from the sun to create a perfect "inside out" planet, intercepting every bit of radiation energy leaving the sun.   If it were set at 1 AU, to simulate the solar flux of earth (how terra-centric can we get?) we get a surface something like 55 million (~2^16 ) times that of earth.   The total energy output of the sun is about 2^43 times our current use.   All the engineering problems aside (hah!) we have a theoretical maximum in this solar system (unless we decided we needed to boost the rate of fusion in the sun, if we could) of at least 55 million times as many people consuming trillions as many times as much energy per capita (put your money back in GM/Hummer stock)!   Given that we would be living on a shell whose "other side" (a few meters or kilometers away?) we might even be able to make much more efficient use of the solar flux than we do now, restricted by having to create/find gradients in our closed little atmospheric and oceanic shell.  Imagine the entire surface of the sphere a huge set of valved heat-pipes just waiting to provide thermal gradients for optimal energy utilization to do useful work!  Imagine all that "useful work"!  Oh the things we could do!

Of course Dyson scoffs at our fears of global warming, and suggests we bio-engineer forests to sequester carbon.   He might even be right (that we have the wherewithal to do such).   And if we start doubling our population every 30 years right away, we can have the population necessary to maximally use the Dyson Sphere in a mere 11 generations (330 years!) (check my math guys).   We'd better quit worrying about minor problems like rising sea levels and desertification of the interior of north America and get cracking on the really hard problems like how to gather up and reshape all the non-solar matter in the solar system.   Better kick a few Obama Bucks into Space Technology, hell kick them all in!

So, is anthropogenic global climate change real?  I fear it is.  I hope it isn't.  What I'm equally disturbed about is that *we can't tell!*.  I don't mean that the climate change scientists don't have really good data and even good models (ice cores from antartica, greenland, etc.).  What I mean is that as a species, as a culture, we are so tangled up in our value system that something vaguely like half of us (well, half of those living in the US, or half of those in the 1st World) insist that *they know for a fact* that the *other half* are totally insane and being disagreeable for entirely specious and political reasons.   Half of us think the other half are trying to destroy the biosphere while the other half think that the *other* other half are trying to destroy the economy.  

Either way, everyone thinks everyone else is trying to destroy humanity (and life, the universe, and everything)!   If the stakes are this high, why are we screaming and running in every direction at once?  Wait... isn't that what we humans (primates, mammals, vertebrates) do?   What possible survival value is there in that?   The canoe is rocking and tipping madly and we are all rushing to see how far out the side we can hang our bodies to try to balance the "idiots" hanging out the other side.   Anyone who's fallen out of a canoe knows that a good strategy when things get tippy is to move to the center and drop down low, not shriek loudly as we manically try to obtain a dynamic balance with the other shrieking occupants.  

When the wildfire roars through the forest or prarie, the animals, great and small run blindly in all directions.   Those that run away from the fire, flush more, and give them a direction to run in.   The only thing a smoke-blinded panicked creature needs to know in a wildfire is to run like hell in the same direction everyone else around you is running (even if they are running in circles).  By the time the fire is about to consume you, this is a good strategy.  Back when it was just starting and you were (un)lucky enough to be near the front, this is as likely to get you killed immediately as it is to help you run in a direction where you get to have a chance of being killed slowly or maybe, just maybe, not at all.  We are the ones who started the fire (if there is one), isn't it amazing that some of us are eager to run right back into it and toss some  more accellerant on it?  Maybe it is just an illusion, a collective hallucination, and isn't it brave of those who run directly into it spraying volatile combustibles around like holy water?

In the spirit of hunkering down in the center of the canoe... I think I should dig out those 5 year old vegetable seeds and start patiently doing germination tests.  Then I should start preparing an area inside my south facing windows to sprout some starts.   In about a week, the soil will be ready for some light tilling and I could plant those peas and an early crop of greens outside and start getting ready to put in the starts mid-May.   Nah... I think I'll go to the Hummer store and see if the prices are finally down enough that I can finally trade my 30 yr old 40MPG Civic in on...  I deserve to ride in style.  I am, after all, one of Mother Nature's most special children! Gas is hovering at $2...  no big deal.  And the produce section is *full* of great green goodness shipped halfway across the planet, all shiny and wrapped up in cellophane, much prettier than anything I could grow myself. What was I thinking?  Articles on big thinkers like Dyson get me all nostalgic sometimes.

Besides, I need to work on the mathematics to see if my version of the Dyson Sphere will remain solar-stationary based on the "solar wind" alone, and what angular velocity I need to provide 1G, and whether the resulting coriolis forces will mess with my head.   I guess I should go back and read Niven's RingWorld again for some pointers.   What are we going to use to replace the magnetic field to deflect the "bad rays" and where will they go?  Oh shit!  I think we just created a giant Cavitron!  No wonder there are so many pulsars in the known universe... they are just all of the civilizations who survived their own nonsense long enough to turn their solar system into a giant Cavitron spewing beams of intense energy around the Universe as cautionary beacons for the rest of us.

Ahhhhhhhhyeeeeeeee!

- Steven Angsty Smith
Homo Sapiens Exploitatus ExtraOrdinaire

That's a funny coincidence ... I am reading it just now.

I'm always glad to come across another skeptic on anthropogenic global warming, particularly from someone with such strong credentials.  The sustained level of pervasive hand-wrangling on this issue is quite worrisome.  The actions that some are proposing to curb carbon emissions is far out of line relative to the level of uncertainty that still exists, and I think it likely that a stiff carbon tax of some sort will do much more harm than good.

And I do get tired of the badly written articles one finds on this subject in the press.  The level of blind acceptance among the press corp is rather reminiscent of those covering the Bush white house.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.  I have seen a slight uptick in skeptical writings over the last year or so on AGW, so maybe we have started to turn the corner on this issue.  One can hope.

Cheers,

Ted

*I didn't just drop a bomb, did I?

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

While we are at it, did anybody read about Freeman Dyson in the Times Mag today?  What did you think?


============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org




============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Reply | Threaded
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Re: Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

Douglas Roberts-2
Mea culpa, as well.  I may already be exiled.


On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
All right.  enough of this, guys.  Steve G. is going to blame me for starting this and exile me again.
 
Nick
 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 3/30/2009 3:58:44 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

Ok, enough yammering about rutabagas.  I don't carrot all for this line of discussion. 

Promiscuous potatoes, on the other hand...

Two potatoes sitting one the counter.  How can you tell which  is the prostitute?

The one that says Idaho.

Bada Bing.

Profuse apologies; it's been a long day.

--Doug

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Ted Carmichael <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ah, I think Doug has gotten to the root of the problem.

-T


On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
Excuse me, but what, exactly, does this have to do with rutabagas?



On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Steve S.,
 
Now I KNOW you should write an op=ed for the Times.   Or better still, the NEW YORKER. 
 
The Liberal's Contract with the world:  "You let me do to you whatever I want, and in return I give you my guilt."
 
Another Liberal fallacy:  "As long as I have contempt for myself, I get to have contempt for you"
 
These are habits of mind I both deplore and indulge in myself  in the same sentences.   In fact, in those very sentences. 
 
But when I am trying to be serious, I return to the existentialism that I was braised in as a kid.:  Choosing is what humans do; we have to take our best shot!  And if our best science tells us (1) that global warming may be a terrible problem and (2) that we wont know if it is a terrible problem until after it is too late to do something, then we ==>must<== take a crack at solving the problem. 
 
Note the use of modal language!  ("==>must<==")  Anytime somebody uses modal language, they have entered into the world of values ... have, in fact, taken leave of their sense, gone mad!.  I cannot argue for "taking our best shot".  I just believe that as humans we "should" do it, and hope that you will join me in this belief, because I would rather be mad together than mad alone.  This is the best rationale I can muster for supporting Anti-global warming measures. 
 
To be serious, we have to escape irony; to escape irony, we have to go mad.    The solution is that easy.   
 
Nick  
 
 
 
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 3/30/2009 12:41:38 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

In the spirit of avoiding deadlines by reading things I don't have time for and writing things I probably should delete before sending, or better yet, not bother to write:

I have a love/hate relationship with Freeman Dyson and his work and legacy.

I have a love/hate relationship (quite parallel actually) with Global Climate Change.

I'm a human-chauvanist (in the sense of Robert Heinlein) and I loathe myself for it.

I'm a bleeding heart liberal humanist (in the sense of many of us on this list) and I loathe myself for it.

Yes Nick, it is time for another huge helping of starchy, fatty, Ennui, liberally drizzled with rich, spicy Angst:

I think it is horribly/wonderfully arrogant of us to think we can do anything of consequence to this planet.   But then "what means consequence"?  After all, even our most devastating nuclear holocaust would look like a drop in the bucket compared to one good impactor from space (or any other historical Extinction Event).   And at the same time, there is some evidence that humans, at the end of the last ice age managed to wipe out most of the megafauna (where did those mastadons, giant tree sloths, dire wolves and sabertooth cats go anyway?) on the planet, sparing only those in Africa who (apparently?) adapted to our enhanced predatory (neolithic?) capabilities as fast as we developed new ones?

Mother Nature is not really that nice to her children (and I think of us as some of her most precocious brats to date), starting as early as the Siderian period, the rise (and cum-uppance) of the Oxygen Extinction.  Stupid Photosynthesizers... didn't they know when to quit?  And look what they ushered in, Oxygen Metabolizers that could run circles around them, gobble them up like so much fodder and shit them out.   The over-zealousness of the photosynthesizers lead to the creation of their own new masters, the oxygen-eating herbivores who in turn provided a substrate for the carnivores, which collectively provide a great playground for Homo Sapiens Exploitatus (read Genesis and talk to some fundamentalist Christians if you don't think this planet was designed to be our playground).

Like members of the pantheon of Greek (and Roman and Norse) Gods, Ma Nature gives us the rope to hang ourselves, lets us stew in our own juices, offers us the best of all parental benefits: "benign neglect".   Those cigarette burns on our cheeks?  That just comes from not being careful enough around adults smoking cigarettes at a cocktail party (gesticulating wildly in their drunken exuberence).   Only the slow and dull-witted let that happen more than once.  Thanks Ma, you are right... I'll be more careful next time... and thanks again for the chemistry set you gave me for Xmas and the big box of matches!  Have a nice party.

Whether Al Gore (and the many very serious scientists he quotes, or the many Chicken Littles who flock to him) are correct or not, I am not sure.   My human-centric arrogance loves the idea that in 100+ years of industrial activity we have been able to kick the planet's ecological and climatological balance so far out of whack that we might not recover.  My (somewhat more humble) humanist side abhors that we can so blithely set the planet on fire (metaphorically) with little thought to the consequence to all the cute little baby seals and our cute little grandchildren and their even cuter grandchildren (if we, the species last that long).

Dyson is not only a deep thinker, but also a grand thinker.   What could something as mundane as "Global Climate Change" mean to someone who has proposed collecting up all of the planetary and asteroidal material in the solar system to create a perfect shell at the optimal distance from the sun to create a perfect "inside out" planet, intercepting every bit of radiation energy leaving the sun.   If it were set at 1 AU, to simulate the solar flux of earth (how terra-centric can we get?) we get a surface something like 55 million (~2^16 ) times that of earth.   The total energy output of the sun is about 2^43 times our current use.   All the engineering problems aside (hah!) we have a theoretical maximum in this solar system (unless we decided we needed to boost the rate of fusion in the sun, if we could) of at least 55 million times as many people consuming trillions as many times as much energy per capita (put your money back in GM/Hummer stock)!   Given that we would be living on a shell whose "other side" (a few meters or kilometers away?) we might even be able to make much more efficient use of the solar flux than we do now, restricted by having to create/find gradients in our closed little atmospheric and oceanic shell.  Imagine the entire surface of the sphere a huge set of valved heat-pipes just waiting to provide thermal gradients for optimal energy utilization to do useful work!  Imagine all that "useful work"!  Oh the things we could do!

Of course Dyson scoffs at our fears of global warming, and suggests we bio-engineer forests to sequester carbon.   He might even be right (that we have the wherewithal to do such).   And if we start doubling our population every 30 years right away, we can have the population necessary to maximally use the Dyson Sphere in a mere 11 generations (330 years!) (check my math guys).   We'd better quit worrying about minor problems like rising sea levels and desertification of the interior of north America and get cracking on the really hard problems like how to gather up and reshape all the non-solar matter in the solar system.   Better kick a few Obama Bucks into Space Technology, hell kick them all in!

So, is anthropogenic global climate change real?  I fear it is.  I hope it isn't.  What I'm equally disturbed about is that *we can't tell!*.  I don't mean that the climate change scientists don't have really good data and even good models (ice cores from antartica, greenland, etc.).  What I mean is that as a species, as a culture, we are so tangled up in our value system that something vaguely like half of us (well, half of those living in the US, or half of those in the 1st World) insist that *they know for a fact* that the *other half* are totally insane and being disagreeable for entirely specious and political reasons.   Half of us think the other half are trying to destroy the biosphere while the other half think that the *other* other half are trying to destroy the economy.  

Either way, everyone thinks everyone else is trying to destroy humanity (and life, the universe, and everything)!   If the stakes are this high, why are we screaming and running in every direction at once?  Wait... isn't that what we humans (primates, mammals, vertebrates) do?   What possible survival value is there in that?   The canoe is rocking and tipping madly and we are all rushing to see how far out the side we can hang our bodies to try to balance the "idiots" hanging out the other side.   Anyone who's fallen out of a canoe knows that a good strategy when things get tippy is to move to the center and drop down low, not shriek loudly as we manically try to obtain a dynamic balance with the other shrieking occupants.  

When the wildfire roars through the forest or prarie, the animals, great and small run blindly in all directions.   Those that run away from the fire, flush more, and give them a direction to run in.   The only thing a smoke-blinded panicked creature needs to know in a wildfire is to run like hell in the same direction everyone else around you is running (even if they are running in circles).  By the time the fire is about to consume you, this is a good strategy.  Back when it was just starting and you were (un)lucky enough to be near the front, this is as likely to get you killed immediately as it is to help you run in a direction where you get to have a chance of being killed slowly or maybe, just maybe, not at all.  We are the ones who started the fire (if there is one), isn't it amazing that some of us are eager to run right back into it and toss some  more accellerant on it?  Maybe it is just an illusion, a collective hallucination, and isn't it brave of those who run directly into it spraying volatile combustibles around like holy water?

In the spirit of hunkering down in the center of the canoe... I think I should dig out those 5 year old vegetable seeds and start patiently doing germination tests.  Then I should start preparing an area inside my south facing windows to sprout some starts.   In about a week, the soil will be ready for some light tilling and I could plant those peas and an early crop of greens outside and start getting ready to put in the starts mid-May.   Nah... I think I'll go to the Hummer store and see if the prices are finally down enough that I can finally trade my 30 yr old 40MPG Civic in on...  I deserve to ride in style.  I am, after all, one of Mother Nature's most special children! Gas is hovering at $2...  no big deal.  And the produce section is *full* of great green goodness shipped halfway across the planet, all shiny and wrapped up in cellophane, much prettier than anything I could grow myself. What was I thinking?  Articles on big thinkers like Dyson get me all nostalgic sometimes.

Besides, I need to work on the mathematics to see if my version of the Dyson Sphere will remain solar-stationary based on the "solar wind" alone, and what angular velocity I need to provide 1G, and whether the resulting coriolis forces will mess with my head.   I guess I should go back and read Niven's RingWorld again for some pointers.   What are we going to use to replace the magnetic field to deflect the "bad rays" and where will they go?  Oh shit!  I think we just created a giant Cavitron!  No wonder there are so many pulsars in the known universe... they are just all of the civilizations who survived their own nonsense long enough to turn their solar system into a giant Cavitron spewing beams of intense energy around the Universe as cautionary beacons for the rest of us.

Ahhhhhhhhyeeeeeeee!

- Steven Angsty Smith
Homo Sapiens Exploitatus ExtraOrdinaire

That's a funny coincidence ... I am reading it just now.

I'm always glad to come across another skeptic on anthropogenic global warming, particularly from someone with such strong credentials.  The sustained level of pervasive hand-wrangling on this issue is quite worrisome.  The actions that some are proposing to curb carbon emissions is far out of line relative to the level of uncertainty that still exists, and I think it likely that a stiff carbon tax of some sort will do much more harm than good.

And I do get tired of the badly written articles one finds on this subject in the press.  The level of blind acceptance among the press corp is rather reminiscent of those covering the Bush white house.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.  I have seen a slight uptick in skeptical writings over the last year or so on AGW, so maybe we have started to turn the corner on this issue.  One can hope.

Cheers,

Ted

*I didn't just drop a bomb, did I?

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

While we are at it, did anybody read about Freeman Dyson in the Times Mag today?  What did you think?


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Re: Freeman Dyson and Homo Sapiens Exploitatus

Pamela McCorduck
In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2
It almost makes me glad I brought up rutabagas. Anyway, I spenched my morning tea all over my screen.

Thanks, Doug.

P.


On Mar 30, 2009, at 5:57 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

Ok, enough yammering about rutabagas.  I don't carrot all for this line of discussion. 

Promiscuous potatoes, on the other hand...

Two potatoes sitting one the counter.  How can you tell which  is the prostitute?

The one that says Idaho.

Bada Bing.


"I think we shall look back at this in ten years' time and say we should not have done this but we did because we forgot the lessons of the past, that that which is true in the 1930s is true in 2010."


Senator Byron L. Dorgan, D.,  of North Dakota, in 1999 when Glass-Stegall was repealed.








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