Friam

Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

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Tom Johnson

Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

For those of us who have hung around universities for a while..... (Tkx to Joe Traub)

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2013/06/forget_moocslets_use_mooa.html

--tj

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Owen Densmore

Re: Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

Administrator

It was always supposed MOOA would be a huge part of MOOC success, if indeed it did succeed. Thanks for the pointer, very interesting indeed.

For example, Udacity and Coursera (and MITx) all agree that administration cost reduction is a huge step towards the solution of cost of education.

I wish I *did* have a better understand the ins/outs of Education .. whenever I hear Ed and others talk about the arcane aspects of University Life .. I realize that I just don't Get It. And don't want to!

-- Owen

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

For those of us who have hung around universities for a while..... (Tkx to Joe Traub)

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2013/06/forget_moocslets_use_mooa.html

--tj

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Tom Johnson

Re: Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

Well, for me at least, we had a near maximum amount of independence without a lot of interference from administrators. I'm sure that varies widely, but I enjoyed it. You can have the time or the money, and I've always taken the time.

-tj

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

It was always supposed MOOA would be a huge part of MOOC success, if indeed it did succeed. Thanks for the pointer, very interesting indeed.

For example, Udacity and Coursera (and MITx) all agree that administration cost reduction is a huge step towards the solution of cost of education.

I wish I *did* have a better understand the ins/outs of Education .. whenever I hear Ed and others talk about the arcane aspects of University Life .. I realize that I just don't Get It. And don't want to!

-- Owen

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

For those of us who have hung around universities for a while..... (Tkx to Joe Traub)

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2013/06/forget_moocslets_use_mooa.html

--tj

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

==========================================
J. T. Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson

http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
==========================================

Pamela McCorduck

Re: Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

Your children's and grandchildren's college tuition is going up much faster than inflation. One reason--not the only one, but one big one--is the burgeoning class of administrators. The vice-presidents proliferate like those of banks, and if you add in compliance officers of one kind and another, the growth is phenomenal. Joe tells me of sitting through a mandatory sexual harassment tutorial, whose content could have been covered in ten minutes, but which took two "harassment officers" an hour to state the obvious. What particularly offended him was their clear contempt for the professoriate. WE run the university dudes, was their attitude, and you're just the pesky people we have to endure.

This is an Ivy League university, Columbia. God only knows what it's like in the state schools.

FWIW, I sent this on to a couple of other members of the professoriate, who laughed like hell.

On Jun 23, 2013, at 9:40 PM, Tom Johnson wrote:

Well, for me at least, we had a near maximum amount of independence without a lot of interference from administrators. I'm sure that varies widely, but I enjoyed it. You can have the time or the money, and I've always taken the time.

-tj

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

It was always supposed MOOA would be a huge part of MOOC success, if indeed it did succeed. Thanks for the pointer, very interesting indeed.

For example, Udacity and Coursera (and MITx) all agree that administration cost reduction is a huge step towards the solution of cost of education.

I wish I *did* have a better understand the ins/outs of Education .. whenever I hear Ed and others talk about the arcane aspects of University Life .. I realize that I just don't Get It. And don't want to!

-- Owen

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

For those of us who have hung around universities for a while..... (Tkx to Joe Traub)

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2013/06/forget_moocslets_use_mooa.html

--tj

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
==========================================
J. T. Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson

http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
==========================================
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

"Bounded Rationality," by Pamela McCorduck, the second novel in the series, Santa Fe Stories, Sunstone Press, is now available both as ink-on-paper and as an e-book.

“The person, be it gentleman or lady, who has not pleasure in a good novel, must be intolerably stupid.”
― Jane Austen

Steve Smith

Re: Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

If this had been circulated on April 1, I would have suspected it of being a spoof, challenging the college administrators with the same kind of job-performance/security threat that professors have been given by MOOCs.

While I think this might be as inevitable as MOOCs, I think we will find we enjoy the fruits of MOOCs and MOOAs in the same way we enjoy the fruits of WalMart, Home Depot, Best Buy and other BigBoxia. We will badmouth them in public but sneak into them in private to get the economies of scale, all the while whining about the loss of a rich and diverse ecosystem provided by the thing these behemoths replace.

- Steve

Your children's and grandchildren's college tuition is going up much faster than inflation. One reason--not the only one, but one big one--is the burgeoning class of administrators. The vice-presidents proliferate like those of banks, and if you add in compliance officers of one kind and another, the growth is phenomenal. Joe tells me of sitting through a mandatory sexual harassment tutorial, whose content could have been covered in ten minutes, but which took two "harassment officers" an hour to state the obvious. What particularly offended him was their clear contempt for the professoriate. WE run the university dudes, was their attitude, and you're just the pesky people we have to endure.

This is an Ivy League university, Columbia. God only knows what it's like in the state schools.

FWIW, I sent this on to a couple of other members of the professoriate, who laughed like hell.

On Jun 23, 2013, at 9:40 PM, Tom Johnson wrote:

Well, for me at least, we had a near maximum amount of independence without a lot of interference from administrators. I'm sure that varies widely, but I enjoyed it. You can have the time or the money, and I've always taken the time.

-tj

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

It was always supposed MOOA would be a huge part of MOOC success, if indeed it did succeed. Thanks for the pointer, very interesting indeed.

For example, Udacity and Coursera (and MITx) all agree that administration cost reduction is a huge step towards the solution of cost of education.

I wish I *did* have a better understand the ins/outs of Education .. whenever I hear Ed and others talk about the arcane aspects of University Life .. I realize that I just don't Get It. And don't want to!

-- Owen

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

For those of us who have hung around universities for a while..... (Tkx to Joe Traub)

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2013/06/forget_moocslets_use_mooa.html

--tj

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--

==========================================
J. T. Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson

http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
==========================================
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

"Bounded Rationality," by Pamela McCorduck, the second novel in the series, Santa Fe Stories, Sunstone Press, is now available both as ink-on-paper and as an e-book.

“The person, be it gentleman or lady, who has not pleasure in a good novel, must be intolerably stupid.”
― Jane Austen
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Nick Thompson

Re: Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

Owen, and all,

For me, the value of higher education is the bringing together of large numbers of people who are in transition in their lives and exposing them to a smaller number of people who have thought hard about important things. It has never been clear to me how MOOC;s meet that goal. It is also not particularly clear to me how administrators serve it. Another important goal of University life is the pursuit of unfettered curiosity. More and more, money has tainted research and University researchers have become more like industrial project directors. They have failed to take advantage of the tremendous opportunity offered them to find out how the world really is. Everybody on the faculty wants to be rich and powerful; nobody wants to be a dedicated egghead anymore. They have sold their souls and gotten damned little for them in return.

This one reason why I think it is so important to support St. Johns College in this time of impersonal education. Whatever else they do, they still embody the ideal of face to face conversation on important matters.

Nick

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 12:37 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

Your children's and grandchildren's college tuition is going up much faster than inflation. One reason--not the only one, but one big one--is the burgeoning class of administrators. The vice-presidents proliferate like those of banks, and if you add in compliance officers of one kind and another, the growth is phenomenal. Joe tells me of sitting through a mandatory sexual harassment tutorial, whose content could have been covered in ten minutes, but which took two "harassment officers" an hour to state the obvious. What particularly offended him was their clear contempt for the professoriate. WE run the university dudes, was their attitude, and you're just the pesky people we have to endure.

This is an Ivy League university, Columbia. God only knows what it's like in the state schools.

FWIW, I sent this on to a couple of other members of the professoriate, who laughed like hell.

On Jun 23, 2013, at 9:40 PM, Tom Johnson wrote:

Well, for me at least, we had a near maximum amount of independence without a lot of interference from administrators. I'm sure that varies widely, but I enjoyed it. You can have the time or the money, and I've always taken the time.

-tj
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
It was always supposed MOOA would be a huge part of MOOC success, if indeed it did succeed. Thanks for the pointer, very interesting indeed.

For example, Udacity and Coursera (and MITx) all agree that administration cost reduction is a huge step towards the solution of cost of education.

I wish I *did* have a better understand the ins/outs of Education .. whenever I hear Ed and others talk about the arcane aspects of University Life .. I realize that I just don't Get It. And don't want to!

-- Owen

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
For those of us who have hung around universities for a while..... (Tkx to Joe Traub)

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2013/06/forget_moocslets_use_mooa.html

--tj

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
==========================================
J. T. Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson
http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
==========================================
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

"Bounded Rationality," by Pamela McCorduck, the second novel in the series, Santa Fe Stories, Sunstone Press, is now available both as ink-on-paper and as an e-book.

“The person, be it gentleman or lady, who has not pleasure in a good novel, must be intolerably stupid.”
― Jane Austen
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Roger Critchlow-2

Re: Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

I've just been reviewing some stuff about selective colleges, http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/04/what-makes-a-college-selective-and-why-it-matters/, it turns out that going to a selective college makes a world of difference.

Interestingly, there are 2 selective colleges in New Mexico, 4 selective colleges in Colorado, and not one more in the mountain region, no colleges ranked as selective in WY, MT, ID, UT, AZ or NV.

Then again, Google has many employees who never started or finished college and the number is growing. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/business/in-head-hunting-big-data-may-not-be-such-a-big-deal.html

-- rec --

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Owen, and all,

For me, the value of higher education is the bringing together of large numbers of people who are in transition in their lives and exposing them to a smaller number of people who have thought hard about important things. It has never been clear to me how MOOC;s meet that goal. It is also not particularly clear to me how administrators serve it. Another important goal of University life is the pursuit of unfettered curiosity. More and more, money has tainted research and University researchers have become more like industrial project directors. They have failed to take advantage of the tremendous opportunity offered them to find out how the world really is. Everybody on the faculty wants to be rich and powerful; nobody wants to be a dedicated egghead anymore. They have sold their souls and gotten damned little for them in return.

This one reason why I think it is so important to support St. Johns College in this time of impersonal education. Whatever else they do, they still embody the ideal of face to face conversation on important matters.

Nick

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 12:37 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA
If this had been circulated on April 1, I would have suspected it of being a spoof, challenging the college administrators with the same kind of job-performance/security threat that professors have been given by MOOCs.

While I think this might be as inevitable as MOOCs, I think we will find we enjoy the fruits of MOOCs and MOOAs in the same way we enjoy the fruits of WalMart, Home Depot, Best Buy and other BigBoxia. We will badmouth them in public but sneak into them in private to get the economies of scale, all the while whining about the loss of a rich and diverse ecosystem provided by the thing these behemoths replace.

- Steve
Your children's and grandchildren's college tuition is going up much faster than inflation. One reason--not the only one, but one big one--is the burgeoning class of administrators. The vice-presidents proliferate like those of banks, and if you add in compliance officers of one kind and another, the growth is phenomenal. Joe tells me of sitting through a mandatory sexual harassment tutorial, whose content could have been covered in ten minutes, but which took two "harassment officers" an hour to state the obvious. What particularly offended him was their clear contempt for the professoriate. WE run the university dudes, was their attitude, and you're just the pesky people we have to endure.

This is an Ivy League university, Columbia. God only knows what it's like in the state schools.

FWIW, I sent this on to a couple of other members of the professoriate, who laughed like hell.

On Jun 23, 2013, at 9:40 PM, Tom Johnson wrote:

Well, for me at least, we had a near maximum amount of independence without a lot of interference from administrators. I'm sure that varies widely, but I enjoyed it. You can have the time or the money, and I've always taken the time.

-tj
On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
It was always supposed MOOA would be a huge part of MOOC success, if indeed it did succeed. Thanks for the pointer, very interesting indeed.

For example, Udacity and Coursera (and MITx) all agree that administration cost reduction is a huge step towards the solution of cost of education.

I wish I *did* have a better understand the ins/outs of Education .. whenever I hear Ed and others talk about the arcane aspects of University Life .. I realize that I just don't Get It. And don't want to!

-- Owen

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

For those of us who have hung around universities for a while..... (Tkx to Joe Traub)

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2013/06/forget_moocslets_use_mooa.html

--tj

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
==========================================
J. T. Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
<a href="tel:505.577.6482" value="+15055776482" target="_blank">505.577.6482(c) <a href="tel:505.473.9646" value="+15054739646" target="_blank">505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson
http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
==========================================
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

"Bounded Rationality," by Pamela McCorduck, the second novel in the series, Santa Fe Stories, Sunstone Press, is now available both as ink-on-paper and as an e-book.

“The person, be it gentleman or lady, who has not pleasure in a good novel, must be intolerably stupid.”
― Jane Austen
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Pamela McCorduck

Re: Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Uhm, Steve, it is a spoof for just those reasons you cite. That I made a serious response to it was only to say how it is with college administrations these days.

On Jun 23, 2013, at 10:36 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

If this had been circulated on April 1, I would have suspected it of being a spoof, challenging the college administrators with the same kind of job-performance/security threat that professors have been given by MOOCs.

While I think this might be as inevitable as MOOCs, I think we will find we enjoy the fruits of MOOCs and MOOAs in the same way we enjoy the fruits of WalMart, Home Depot, Best Buy and other BigBoxia. We will badmouth them in public but sneak into them in private to get the economies of scale, all the while whining about the loss of a rich and diverse ecosystem provided by the thing these behemoths replace.

- Steve
Your children's and grandchildren's college tuition is going up much faster than inflation. One reason--not the only one, but one big one--is the burgeoning class of administrators. The vice-presidents proliferate like those of banks, and if you add in compliance officers of one kind and another, the growth is phenomenal. Joe tells me of sitting through a mandatory sexual harassment tutorial, whose content could have been covered in ten minutes, but which took two "harassment officers" an hour to state the obvious. What particularly offended him was their clear contempt for the professoriate. WE run the university dudes, was their attitude, and you're just the pesky people we have to endure.

This is an Ivy League university, Columbia. God only knows what it's like in the state schools.

FWIW, I sent this on to a couple of other members of the professoriate, who laughed like hell.

On Jun 23, 2013, at 9:40 PM, Tom Johnson wrote:

Well, for me at least, we had a near maximum amount of independence without a lot of interference from administrators. I'm sure that varies widely, but I enjoyed it. You can have the time or the money, and I've always taken the time.

-tj

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

It was always supposed MOOA would be a huge part of MOOC success, if indeed it did succeed. Thanks for the pointer, very interesting indeed.

For example, Udacity and Coursera (and MITx) all agree that administration cost reduction is a huge step towards the solution of cost of education.

I wish I *did* have a better understand the ins/outs of Education .. whenever I hear Ed and others talk about the arcane aspects of University Life .. I realize that I just don't Get It. And don't want to!

-- Owen

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

For those of us who have hung around universities for a while..... (Tkx to Joe Traub)

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2013/06/forget_moocslets_use_mooa.html

--tj

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--

==========================================
J. T. Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson

http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
==========================================
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

"Bounded Rationality," by Pamela McCorduck, the second novel in the series, Santa Fe Stories, Sunstone Press, is now available both as ink-on-paper and as an e-book.

“The person, be it gentleman or lady, who has not pleasure in a good novel, must be intolerably stupid.”
― Jane Austen
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

"Bounded Rationality," by Pamela McCorduck, the second novel in the series, Santa Fe Stories, Sunstone Press, is now available both as ink-on-paper and as an e-book.

“The person, be it gentleman or lady, who has not pleasure in a good novel, must be intolerably stupid.”
― Jane Austen

Steve Smith

Re: Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

Pamela -

Thanks for clueing me in!

And it shows how out of touch with academia I am that I didn't trust my BS detectors even more... I really accepted it!

Nevertheless, my conclusion still holds that we are *optimizing* for one (or a few) thing(s) and likely running the baby down the drain with the bathwater.

We *do* live in interesting times!
- Steve

Uhm, Steve, it is a spoof for just those reasons you cite. That I made a serious response to it was only to say how it is with college administrations these days.
On Jun 23, 2013, at 10:36 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
If this had been circulated on April 1, I would have suspected it of being a spoof, challenging the college administrators with the same kind of job-performance/security threat that professors have been given by MOOCs.

While I think this might be as inevitable as MOOCs, I think we will find we enjoy the fruits of MOOCs and MOOAs in the same way we enjoy the fruits of WalMart, Home Depot, Best Buy and other BigBoxia. We will badmouth them in public but sneak into them in private to get the economies of scale, all the while whining about the loss of a rich and diverse ecosystem provided by the thing these behemoths replace.

- Steve
Your children's and grandchildren's college tuition is going up much faster than inflation. One reason--not the only one, but one big one--is the burgeoning class of administrators. The vice-presidents proliferate like those of banks, and if you add in compliance officers of one kind and another, the growth is phenomenal. Joe tells me of sitting through a mandatory sexual harassment tutorial, whose content could have been covered in ten minutes, but which took two "harassment officers" an hour to state the obvious. What particularly offended him was their clear contempt for the professoriate. WE run the university dudes, was their attitude, and you're just the pesky people we have to endure.

This is an Ivy League university, Columbia. God only knows what it's like in the state schools.

FWIW, I sent this on to a couple of other members of the professoriate, who laughed like hell.

On Jun 23, 2013, at 9:40 PM, Tom Johnson wrote:

Well, for me at least, we had a near maximum amount of independence without a lot of interference from administrators. I'm sure that varies widely, but I enjoyed it. You can have the time or the money, and I've always taken the time.

-tj

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

It was always supposed MOOA would be a huge part of MOOC success, if indeed it did succeed. Thanks for the pointer, very interesting indeed.

For example, Udacity and Coursera (and MITx) all agree that administration cost reduction is a huge step towards the solution of cost of education.

I wish I *did* have a better understand the ins/outs of Education .. whenever I hear Ed and others talk about the arcane aspects of University Life .. I realize that I just don't Get It. And don't want to!

-- Owen

On Sun, Jun 23, 2013 at 7:41 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

For those of us who have hung around universities for a while..... (Tkx to Joe Traub)

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2013/06/forget_moocslets_use_mooa.html

--tj

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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--

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J. T. Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson

http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
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"Bounded Rationality," by Pamela McCorduck, the second novel in the series, Santa Fe Stories, Sunstone Press, is now available both as ink-on-paper and as an e-book.

“The person, be it gentleman or lady, who has not pleasure in a good novel, must be intolerably stupid.”
― Jane Austen
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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"Bounded Rationality," by Pamela McCorduck, the second novel in the series, Santa Fe Stories, Sunstone Press, is now available both as ink-on-paper and as an e-book.

“The person, be it gentleman or lady, who has not pleasure in a good novel, must be intolerably stupid.”
― Jane Austen
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Owen Densmore

Re: Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

Administrator

Nick: re bringing people together as an important part of academic life, I couldn't agree more, especially undergraduate.

I did take a (*very* tough) grad course at UNM remotely. There were two ways to attend remotely: Going to SFCC and using a specially wired room so I could ask questions, or simply my computer that evening .. no interaction but easy to repeat parts of the class that were elusive.

We (the students) actually did have a personal aspect .. we used skype and google groups. And this really worked well. But being at the grad level, it was pretty much business like. I did go to one class just to meet and greet. I also attended Office Hours via Skype.

MOOCs are doing better than that, and are accelerating due to the convergence of administrative and "social" software, as well as the actual MOOC-ware itself.

So I'd guess MOOCs will best succeed in grad level classes, and even more for professional education. You'll see LinkedIn members posting their classes and proof of completion. I've taken an entire MOOC, coursera's first offering, Machine Learning. I've also scanned a few others .. Scott Page's Model Thinking was surprisingly good for being so broad. This stuff really is useful.

-- Owen

Nick Thompson

Re: Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

Owen,

As you know I have tried hard to make I-net communication work in my teaching. I am coming slowly, however, to belief that one cannot learn from or teach to any person whom you cannot hug or punch in the nose, if you feel the overwhelming need.

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 1:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

Nick: re bringing people together as an important part of academic life, I couldn't agree more, especially undergraduate.

MOOCs are doing better than that, and are accelerating due to the convergence of administrative and "social" software, as well as the actual MOOC-ware itself.

-- Owen

glen ropella

Re: Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

Nicholas Thompson wrote at 06/24/2013 10:56 AM:
> I am coming slowly, however, to belief that one cannot learn
> from or teach to any person whom you cannot hug or punch in the nose, if
> you feel the overwhelming need.

I think I'm safe enough to claim that there is no such thing as
"teaching". There is only learning. Teaching is an illusion brought
about by a coincidence between a motivated student and a resource-full
"teacher" (who, is more properly thought of as, actually is, simply a
more advanced student).

For this reason, I agree with the opinion about MOOCs that they will
work well for the motivated student, but not so well for mind-control in
the the assembly line production of cookie-cutter undergraduates. But,
obviously, I have that opinion about _all_ education. 8^) Why am I
always surrounded by nails?

--
⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella
There's a city called revival made of blocks of poison ivory

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Grant Holland

Re: Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

Bravo!, Glen. I've uttered precisely those words many times: "...there
is no such thing as teaching. There is only learning".

This can be understood when one asks the question "What is leaning?" I
contend that, at least, it is a lifelong construction (creative) project
on the part of the learner to develop an internal (mental) organization
of interrelationships of elements and systems of elements. (It is
composite - nested). Like any dynamical system, this internal mental
network of interrelationships requires constant maintenance, repair,
reorganization, regulation and adaptation. "Information transfer" may be
involved, but it is not the essence of the dynamics that occur.

But, access to this internal dynamical system (our individual internal
"learning tree") is mostly limited to the "learner" and is not directly
available to "outsiders" (parents, teachers, politicians, etc.) In other
words, this construct is strictly private to the learner. Because of
this limited access, "teaching" is not possible - or very limited.

If one wants to "teach" someone else, the most productive route is to
attempt to *evoke* elements that are already in that persons internal
mental construct - rather than to directly try to alter it. You've got
to try to entice its "guardian" (the learner) actually do the altering.
After all, "educe" (the root of "education") means to "pull from out of"
more than it means to "introduce into".

But, of course, "educement" and evocation are the province of artists -
not engineers or soldiers ("teachers"). "Educement" is more like fishing
than it is like hunting. Enticement is involved. "Teachers" have to
become "artists" if they want learning to occur - not engineers, or
soldiers.

Of course, "educement" requires mostly a 1-1 relationship between
"student" and "facilitator" - like mentoring, apprenticeship and
tutoring. Unfortunately, such an approach is not scalable. If we want to
indoctrinate the masses, these kinds of personal relationships between
"student" and "teacher" don't scale to that volume.

Anyway, I find the whole process of "teaching" to be suspect. It may be
well-intentioned; but it is sometimes more politics than compassion.
Teaching campaigns - like institutional education - often have a
priority of serving the institution's sponsors (society at large). The
"student's" personal desires and interests are secondary.

Grant

On 6/26/13 9:30 AM, glen wrote:

> Nicholas Thompson wrote at 06/24/2013 10:56 AM:
>> I am coming slowly, however, to belief that one cannot learn
>> from or teach to any person whom you cannot hug or punch in the nose, if
>> you feel the overwhelming need.
> I think I'm safe enough to claim that there is no such thing as
> "teaching". There is only learning. Teaching is an illusion brought
> about by a coincidence between a motivated student and a resource-full
> "teacher" (who, is more properly thought of as, actually is, simply a
> more advanced student).
>
> For this reason, I agree with the opinion about MOOCs that they will
> work well for the motivated student, but not so well for mind-control in
> the the assembly line production of cookie-cutter undergraduates. But,
> obviously, I have that opinion about _all_ education. 8^) Why am I
> always surrounded by nails?
>

glen ropella

Re: Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

Grant Holland wrote at 06/26/2013 09:11 AM:
> If one wants to "teach" someone else, the most productive route is to
> attempt to *evoke* elements that are already in that persons internal
> mental construct - rather than to directly try to alter it. You've got
> to try to entice its "guardian" (the learner) actually do the altering.
> After all, "educe" (the root of "education") means to "pull from out of"
> more than it means to "introduce into".

Excellent point. I find myself resorting to this way of thinking more
and more, especially in the context of giving presentations. There's
never quite enough time to slog through the rhetoric it would require
even _if_ a guided tour would work. (I've found that such guided tours
don't work unless the audience is willing to play along ... which is
rare.) The best I can do is say things so that the resistance between
what I think they already think and what I'm trying to get them to
think, is minimized. ;-)

> Of course, "educement" requires mostly a 1-1 relationship between
> "student" and "facilitator" - like mentoring, apprenticeship and
> tutoring. Unfortunately, such an approach is not scalable. If we want to
> indoctrinate the masses, these kinds of personal relationships between
> "student" and "teacher" don't scale to that volume.

I'm not sure I agree with this part. Of course, quantitatively, I'd
have to. But qualitatively, it's reasonable to imagine taking advantage
of logistic infection. If I can infect 2 people, and they each infect 2
people, etc. That may not scale _fast_ enough (given the length of a
professional lifetime, say, 20-30 years). But at least we can talk
about the speed of the spread. And I think we might even be able to
achieve some sort of logistic growth with serial tutelage, depending on
the domain. Yeah, perhaps stone masonry requires an entire professional
lifetime for an infection to take hold. But surely other domains take
less time. We can't all be as infectious as Richard Feynman, of course.
But surely some of it scales, right?

What we need are more people to embrace themselves as "advanced
students" with a responsibility to serially engage, 1-1, other students.

--
⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella
Float away from those horizons

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Grant Holland

Re: Forget MOOCs--Let's Use MOOA

Glen,

Also a good point. We see evidence of "evocativeness" being many-to-one
all the time - for example when a YouTube video or a popular song goes
viral. Rumor-mongering is also an example. It even happens sometimes on
this alias. So I stand corrected. Engaging advanced students to go 1-1
is also a great idea.

Grant

On 6/26/13 6:15 PM, glen wrote:

> Grant Holland wrote at 06/26/2013 09:11 AM:
>> If one wants to "teach" someone else, the most productive route is to
>> attempt to *evoke* elements that are already in that persons internal
>> mental construct - rather than to directly try to alter it. You've got
>> to try to entice its "guardian" (the learner) actually do the altering.
>> After all, "educe" (the root of "education") means to "pull from out of"
>> more than it means to "introduce into".
> Excellent point. I find myself resorting to this way of thinking more
> and more, especially in the context of giving presentations. There's
> never quite enough time to slog through the rhetoric it would require
> even _if_ a guided tour would work. (I've found that such guided tours
> don't work unless the audience is willing to play along ... which is
> rare.) The best I can do is say things so that the resistance between
> what I think they already think and what I'm trying to get them to
> think, is minimized. ;-)
>
>> Of course, "educement" requires mostly a 1-1 relationship between
>> "student" and "facilitator" - like mentoring, apprenticeship and
>> tutoring. Unfortunately, such an approach is not scalable. If we want to
>> indoctrinate the masses, these kinds of personal relationships between
>> "student" and "teacher" don't scale to that volume.
> I'm not sure I agree with this part. Of course, quantitatively, I'd
> have to. But qualitatively, it's reasonable to imagine taking advantage
> of logistic infection. If I can infect 2 people, and they each infect 2
> people, etc. That may not scale _fast_ enough (given the length of a
> professional lifetime, say, 20-30 years). But at least we can talk
> about the speed of the spread. And I think we might even be able to
> achieve some sort of logistic growth with serial tutelage, depending on
> the domain. Yeah, perhaps stone masonry requires an entire professional
> lifetime for an infection to take hold. But surely other domains take
> less time. We can't all be as infectious as Richard Feynman, of course.
> But surely some of it scales, right?
>
> What we need are more people to embrace themselves as "advanced
> students" with a responsibility to serially engage, 1-1, other students.
>