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Douglas Roberts-2

Re: faith

Yeah, well: that philosophy will get you dead if you are a motorcycle rider. Maybe not the first year, but the longer you maintain "faith" that the other diver will stay in his lane, the more likely it becomes that you won't make it home one night.

I've been riding for 48 years, still alive...

--Doug

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 6:13 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:

Since this thread is still going... Curt said:
"Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly."
----
Exactly!

It is faith when you stop monitoring the other cars when driving, stop looking at the ground you are about to step on when walking, etc. It is faith when you get out of bed without checking to see that the ground is still there. The actions themselves entail the faith; they do not result from faith, they are the faith. An interesting additional issue is when we do and do not explicitly talk about the things we have faith in. It might also be an additional issue on what basis some people have faith in a "super-natural" "higher-power". (Both scare-quotes seem necessary, because pretty everyone has faith in higher powers, and most people have faith in things they don't have natural explanations for, but we seem to be focusing primarily on the times when those faiths overlap.)

Eric

P.S. Curt, if you are into Power's Perceptual Control Theory, do you know Richard Marken and Warren Manell's work? They wrote a great article for a journal issue I am putting together.

P.P.S. The notion of "blind" faith is really very modern. Certainly it was not long ago that faith in the Judeo-Christian God was primarily supported by experiential evidence. "Behold the wonders," "experience God in every blade of grass," "check out this amazing cathedral," "our army won," etc. The fact that we sometimes meaningfully talk about "blind faith" seems to indicate that the normal meaning of the term "faith" is not inherently blind.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 12:21 AM, Curt McNamara <[hidden email]> wrote:

I had been nicely ignoring this thread in the belief (faith?) that it would go away without affecting me. Alas, the need for a distraction from grading has drawn me back into its basin of (strange) attraction.

Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly.
Action based on belief: ref. William Powers: Behavior, the Control of Perception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_control_theory

Faith or belief: my mental models of the world will still be true tomorrow. These models have been built over time by hypothesis, testing, and adjustment (toddler and stairs example).

Curt

============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: faith

In reply to this post by Eric Charles

It makes for a great academic, philosophical talking point, though.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 6:13 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:

Since this thread is still going... Curt said:
"Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly."
----
Exactly!

It is faith when you stop monitoring the other cars when driving, stop looking at the ground you are about to step on when walking, etc. It is faith when you get out of bed without checking to see that the ground is still there. The actions themselves entail the faith; they do not result from faith, they are the faith. An interesting additional issue is when we do and do not explicitly talk about the things we have faith in. It might also be an additional issue on what basis some people have faith in a "super-natural" "higher-power". (Both scare-quotes seem necessary, because pretty everyone has faith in higher powers, and most people have faith in things they don't have natural explanations for, but we seem to be focusing primarily on the times when those faiths overlap.)

Eric

P.S. Curt, if you are into Power's Perceptual Control Theory, do you know Richard Marken and Warren Manell's work? They wrote a great article for a journal issue I am putting together.

P.P.S. The notion of "blind" faith is really very modern. Certainly it was not long ago that faith in the Judeo-Christian God was primarily supported by experiential evidence. "Behold the wonders," "experience God in every blade of grass," "check out this amazing cathedral," "our army won," etc. The fact that we sometimes meaningfully talk about "blind faith" seems to indicate that the normal meaning of the term "faith" is not inherently blind.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 12:21 AM, Curt McNamara <[hidden email]> wrote:

I had been nicely ignoring this thread in the belief (faith?) that it would go away without affecting me. Alas, the need for a distraction from grading has drawn me back into its basin of (strange) attraction.

Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly.
Action based on belief: ref. William Powers: Behavior, the Control of Perception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_control_theory

Faith or belief: my mental models of the world will still be true tomorrow. These models have been built over time by hypothesis, testing, and adjustment (toddler and stairs example).

Curt

============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

Russ Abbott

Re: faith

I don't buy that "It is faith when you get out of bed without checking to see that the ground is still there." Why should one suppose that the ground would not be there? It seems to me that using "faith" that loosely robs the word of most of its meaning. Faith, I would say (in fact I did earlier) is believing something that one wouldn't otherwise believe without faith. Believing that the everyday world is the everyday world doesn't seem to me to require faith. What would require faith is to believe that the everyday world is somehow not the everyday world but a manifestation of some unknowable being.

-- Russ Abbott
_____________________________________________

Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688
Google voice: 747-999-5105

Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/

vita: sites.google.com/site/russabbott/

CS Wiki and the courses I teach
_____________________________________________

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

It makes for a great academic, philosophical talking point, though.
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 6:13 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:
Since this thread is still going... Curt said:
"Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly."
----
Exactly!

It is faith when you stop monitoring the other cars when driving, stop looking at the ground you are about to step on when walking, etc. It is faith when you get out of bed without checking to see that the ground is still there. The actions themselves entail the faith; they do not result from faith, they are the faith. An interesting additional issue is when we do and do not explicitly talk about the things we have faith in. It might also be an additional issue on what basis some people have faith in a "super-natural" "higher-power". (Both scare-quotes seem necessary, because pretty everyone has faith in higher powers, and most people have faith in things they don't have natural explanations for, but we seem to be focusing primarily on the times when those faiths overlap.)

Eric

P.S. Curt, if you are into Power's Perceptual Control Theory, do you know Richard Marken and Warren Manell's work? They wrote a great article for a journal issue I am putting together.

P.P.S. The notion of "blind" faith is really very modern. Certainly it was not long ago that faith in the Judeo-Christian God was primarily supported by experiential evidence. "Behold the wonders," "experience God in every blade of grass," "check out this amazing cathedral," "our army won," etc. The fact that we sometimes meaningfully talk about "blind faith" seems to indicate that the normal meaning of the term "faith" is not inherently blind.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 12:21 AM, Curt McNamara <[hidden email]> wrote:

I had been nicely ignoring this thread in the belief (faith?) that it would go away without affecting me. Alas, the need for a distraction from grading has drawn me back into its basin of (strange) attraction.

Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly.
Action based on belief: ref. William Powers: Behavior, the Control of Perception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_control_theory

Faith or belief: my mental models of the world will still be true tomorrow. These models have been built over time by hypothesis, testing, and adjustment (toddler and stairs example).

Curt

============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" value="+15056708195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Nick Thompson

Re: faith

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Doug,

What aren’t you tracking while you are tracking the movement of each and every driver on the other side of the line? That’s what you have faith in.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:23 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] faith

I've been riding for 48 years, still alive...

--Doug

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 6:13 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:

Since this thread is still going... Curt said:

"Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly."

----
Exactly!

It is faith when you stop monitoring the other cars when driving, stop looking at the ground you are about to step on when walking, etc. It is faith when you get out of bed without checking to see that the ground is still there. The actions themselves entail the faith; they do not result from faith, they are the faith. An interesting additional issue is when we do and do not explicitly talk about the things we have faith in. It might also be an additional issue on what basis some people have faith in a "super-natural" "higher-power". (Both scare-quotes seem necessary, because pretty everyone has faith in higher powers, and most people have faith in things they don't have natural explanations for, but we seem to be focusing primarily on the times when those faiths overlap.)

Eric

P.S. Curt, if you are into Power's Perceptual Control Theory, do you know Richard Marken and Warren Manell's work? They wrote a great article for a journal issue I am putting together.

P.P.S. The notion of "blind" faith is really very modern. Certainly it was not long ago that faith in the Judeo-Christian God was primarily supported by experiential evidence. "Behold the wonders," "experience God in every blade of grass," "check out this amazing cathedral," "our army won," etc. The fact that we sometimes meaningfully talk about "blind faith" seems to indicate that the normal meaning of the term "faith" is not inherently blind.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 12:21 AM, Curt McNamara <[hidden email]> wrote:

I had been nicely ignoring this thread in the belief (faith?) that it would go away without affecting me. Alas, the need for a distraction from grading has drawn me back into its basin of (strange) attraction.

Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly.
Action based on belief: ref. William Powers: Behavior, the Control of Perception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_control_theory

Faith or belief: my mental models of the world will still be true tomorrow. These models have been built over time by hypothesis, testing, and adjustment (toddler and stairs example).

Curt
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

Nick Thompson

Re: faith

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Russ,

Well, as was observed the last time we went ‘round on this topic, you have faith in your powers of induction: faith that the world is the sort of a place where floors don’t evaporate after several years of not evaporating. Do you remember the car that drove off the severed bridge in Connecticut some years back? That man had faith that an interstate is not the sort of place where roads suddenly come to an end. Turned out to be false.

By the way, a story circulated about that incident that the last thing that driver did was give the finger to another drive that he had just passed. Urban folklore, right? Too much Karma.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:42 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] faith

-- Russ Abbott
_____________________________________________

Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688
Google voice: 747-999-5105

Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/

vita: sites.google.com/site/russabbott/

CS Wiki and the courses I teach
_____________________________________________

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

It makes for a great academic, philosophical talking point, though.

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 6:13 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:

Since this thread is still going... Curt said:
"Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly."
----
Exactly!

It is faith when you stop monitoring the other cars when driving, stop looking at the ground you are about to step on when walking, etc. It is faith when you get out of bed without checking to see that the ground is still there. The actions themselves entail the faith; they do not result from faith, they are the faith. An interesting additional issue is when we do and do not explicitly talk about the things we have faith in. It might also be an additional issue on what basis some people have faith in a "super-natural" "higher-power". (Both scare-quotes seem necessary, because pretty everyone has faith in higher powers, and most people have faith in things they don't have natural explanations for, but we seem to be focusing primarily on the times when those faiths overlap.)

Eric

P.S. Curt, if you are into Power's Perceptual Control Theory, do you know Richard Marken and Warren Manell's work? They wrote a great article for a journal issue I am putting together.

P.P.S. The notion of "blind" faith is really very modern. Certainly it was not long ago that faith in the Judeo-Christian God was primarily supported by experiential evidence. "Behold the wonders," "experience God in every blade of grass," "check out this amazing cathedral," "our army won," etc. The fact that we sometimes meaningfully talk about "blind faith" seems to indicate that the normal meaning of the term "faith" is not inherently blind.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 12:21 AM, Curt McNamara <[hidden email]> wrote:
I had been nicely ignoring this thread in the belief (faith?) that it would go away without affecting me. Alas, the need for a distraction from grading has drawn me back into its basin of (strange) attraction.

Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly.
Action based on belief: ref. William Powers: Behavior, the Control of Perception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_control_theory

Faith or belief: my mental models of the world will still be true tomorrow. These models have been built over time by hypothesis, testing, and adjustment (toddler and stairs example).

Curt
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

Victoria Hughes

Re: faith

Russ wrote, in part-

Faith, I would say (in fact I did earlier)

is believing something that one wouldn't otherwise believe without faith.

Believing that the everyday world is the everyday world

doesn't seem to me to require faith.

Russ, with all due respect for the enjoyment I get from your posts, I find this suspiciously tautological.

Who are you to define for the rest of humanity (and other sentient life forms) what 'the everyday world' incorporates? Numerous 'for instance' cases can immediately be made here. All you can do is define what you believe for yourself. You cannot extrapolate what is defensible for others to believe, from your own beliefs.

And this statement ' Faith is believing something that one wouldn't believe without faith'. Hm and hm again.

Eagleman's new book Incognito offers fruitful information from recent neuroscience that may interest others on this list. His ultimate sections bring up hard questions about legal and ethical issues in the face of the myriad 'zombie programs' that run most of our behaviour. This looks like - but is not as simplistic as - 'yet another pop science book.'

A review David Eagleman's "Incognito" - Brainiac

Tory

Eric Charles

Re: faith

In reply to this post by Eric Charles

Doug...
It wouldn't be the first time faith got someone killed....

Russ,
As I mentioned, "blind faith" is a relatively recent concept, even in religious contexts. Surely we often talk about "having faith" in things other than a divine being (or if we don't often talk about such things, we wouldn't find such talk very odd). A special case of particular interest should not be mistaken for the general phenomenon.

Eric

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 08:23 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yeah, well: that philosophy will get you dead if you are a motorcycle rider. Maybe not the first year, but the longer you maintain "faith" that the other diver will stay in his lane, the more likely it becomes that you won't make it home one night.

I've been riding for 48 years, still alive...

--Doug

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 6:13 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <epc2@...> wrote:

Since this thread is still going... Curt said:

"Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly."

----
Exactly!

It is faith when you stop monitoring the other cars when driving, stop looking at the ground you are about to step on when walking, etc. It is faith when you get out of bed without checking to see that the ground is still there. The actions themselves entail the faith; they do not result from faith, they are the faith. An interesting additional issue is when we do and do not explicitly talk about the things we have faith in. It might also be an additional issue on what basis some people have faith in a "super-natural" "higher-power". (Both scare-quotes seem necessary, because pretty everyone has faith in higher powers, and most people have faith in things they don't have natural explanations for, but we seem to be focusing primarily on the times when those faiths overlap.)

Eric

P.S. Curt, if you are into Power's Perceptual Control Theory, do you know Richard Marken and Warren Manell's work? They wrote a great article for a journal issue I am putting together.

P.P.S. The notion of "blind" faith is really very modern. Certainly it was not long ago that faith in the Judeo-Christian God was primarily supported by experiential evidence. "Behold the wonders," "experience God in every blade of grass," "check out this amazing cathedral," "our army won," etc. The fact that we sometimes meaningfully talk about "blind faith" seems to indicate that the normal meaning of the term "faith" is not inherently blind.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 12:21 AM, Curt McNamara <curtmcn@...> wrote:

I had been nicely ignoring this thread in the belief (faith?) that it would go away without affecting me. Alas, the need for a distraction from grading has drawn me back into its basin of (strange) attraction.

Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly.
Action based on belief: ref. William Powers: Behavior, the Control of Perception.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_control_theory" target="" onclick="window.open('http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_control_theory');return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_control_theory

Faith or belief: my mental models of the world will still be true tomorrow. These models have been built over time by hypothesis, testing, and adjustment (toddler and stairs example).

Curt

============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at <a href="http://www.friam.org" target="" onclick="window.open('http://www.friam.org');return false;">http://www.friam.org

------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at <a href="http://www.friam.org" target="" onclick="window.open('http://www.friam.org');return false;">http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
droberts@...
doug@...
<a href="http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins" target="" onclick="window.open('http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins');return false;">http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins" target="" onclick="window.open('http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins');return false;">
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

Russ Abbott

Re: faith

In reply to this post by Victoria Hughes

Nick,

As I understand your position the words "faith" and "belief" are synonyms. I would prefer a definition for "faith" that distinguishes it from "belief."

Tory,

Thanks for you comment on my posts. I'm glad you enjoy them.

My definition of faith makes use of the notion of the everyday world. But I'm not saying that the everyday world is the same for everyone. Your everyday world may be different from mine. I'm just saying that believing that the world will continue to conform to your sense of what the everyday world is like is not faith; it's simple belief.

Eric,

I would take "having faith in something" in the colloquial sense as different from "faith" in a religious context, which is what I was focusing on.

-- Russ

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ wrote, in part-

Faith, I would say (in fact I did earlier)

is believing something that one wouldn't otherwise believe without faith.

Believing that the everyday world is the everyday world

doesn't seem to me to require faith.

Russ, with all due respect for the enjoyment I get from your posts, I find this suspiciously tautological.

Who are you to define for the rest of humanity (and other sentient life forms) what 'the everyday world' incorporates? Numerous 'for instance' cases can immediately be made here. All you can do is define what you believe for yourself. You cannot extrapolate what is defensible for others to believe, from your own beliefs.

And this statement ' Faith is believing something that one wouldn't believe without faith'. Hm and hm again.

Eagleman's new book Incognito offers fruitful information from recent neuroscience that may interest others on this list. His ultimate sections bring up hard questions about legal and ethical issues in the face of the myriad 'zombie programs' that run most of our behaviour. This looks like - but is not as simplistic as - 'yet another pop science book.'

A review David Eagleman's "Incognito" - Brainiac

Tory

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Eric Charles

Re: faith

In reply to this post by Victoria Hughes

But Russ... if you concede Tory's point, then I think you are quite stuck.

There are many, many, many people for whom the everyday world contains a divine being... and the everyday world is the everyday world. There are people who train hard to see God surrounding them, and there are people for whom it seems to come quite naturally (which is not to say it didn't develop, just that it came easily). For these people, by your definition, belief in God, and belief that God will continue to be with them forever, are NOT issues of faith.

Eric

P.S. I have no idea what Nick will say about "faith" vs. "belief"! I think the concepts overlap pretty obviously, i.e., faith seems like it should be a subclass of belief. On the other hand, one could treat them as two different ways of talking about the same sort of thing. If we can get past your odd claim that faith has to be religious AND that religious things are not part of everyday life, I would be very interested to know how you think the two relate.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 12:41 AM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick,

As I understand your position the words "faith" and "belief" are synonyms. I would prefer a definition for "faith" that distinguishes it from "belief."

Tory,

Thanks for you comment on my posts. I'm glad you enjoy them.

My definition of faith makes use of the notion of the everyday world. But I'm not saying that the everyday world is the same for everyone. Your everyday world may be different from mine. I'm just saying that believing that the world will continue to conform to your sense of what the everyday world is like is not faith; it's simple belief.

Eric,

I would take "having faith in something" in the colloquial sense as different from "faith" in a religious context, which is what I was focusing on.

-- Russ

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Victoria Hughes <victoria@...> wrote:

Russ wrote, in part-

Faith, I would say (in fact I did earlier)

is believing something that one wouldn't otherwise believe without faith.

Believing that the everyday world is the everyday world

doesn't seem to me to require faith.

Russ, with all due respect for the enjoyment I get from your posts, I find this suspiciously tautological.

Who are you to define for the rest of humanity (and other sentient life forms) what 'the everyday world' incorporates? Numerous 'for instance' cases can immediately be made here. All you can do is define what you believe for yourself. You cannot extrapolate what is defensible for others to believe, from your own beliefs.

And this statement ' Faith is believing something that one wouldn't believe without faith'. Hm and hm again.

Eagleman's new book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Incognito-Secret-Lives-David-Eagleman/dp/0307389928/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348460523&sr=1-1&keywords=incognito+by+david+eagleman" target="" onclick="window.open('http://www.amazon.com/Incognito-Secret-Lives-David-Eagleman/dp/0307389928/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348460523&sr=1-1&keywords=incognito+by+david+eagleman');return false;">Incognito offers fruitful information from recent neuroscience that may interest others on this list. His ultimate sections bring up hard questions about legal and ethical issues in the face of the myriad 'zombie programs' that run most of our behaviour. This looks like - but is not as simplistic as - 'yet another pop science book.'

A review <a href="http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/brainiac/2011/06/david_eaglemans.html" target="" onclick="window.open('http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/brainiac/2011/06/david_eaglemans.html');return false;">David Eagleman's "Incognito" - Brainiac

Tory

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

Nick Thompson

Re: faith

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Russ,

I take your point, but still, I would have a hard time composing a sentence of the form, “ Russ has faith in X but he doesn’t believe in it.” Can you compose such a sentence for me?

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 12:42 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] faith

Nick,

As I understand your position the words "faith" and "belief" are synonyms. I would prefer a definition for "faith" that distinguishes it from "belief."

Tory,

Thanks for you comment on my posts. I'm glad you enjoy them.

Eric,

I would take "having faith in something" in the colloquial sense as different from "faith" in a religious context, which is what I was focusing on.

-- Russ

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ wrote, in part-

Faith, I would say (in fact I did earlier)

is believing something that one wouldn't otherwise believe without faith.

Believing that the everyday world is the everyday world

doesn't seem to me to require faith.

Russ, with all due respect for the enjoyment I get from your posts, I find this suspiciously tautological.

And this statement ' Faith is believing something that one wouldn't believe without faith'. Hm and hm again.

A review David Eagleman's "Incognito" - Brainiac

Tory

Steve Smith

Re: faith

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

"'round and 'round the mulberry bush!" Who is monkey and who is the weasel? And when do we all turn to butter?

I have two words, one is "faith" and the other is "Faith". I try not to conflate them with one another.

"faith" is roughly a shortcut term to describe articles in a moderately validated but mostly internalized model. The floor is under my bed nearly every time I get up (if I'm awake), the other drivers don't cross the middle line, etc. I call that "faith" and it is not a very big deal... my pets and the wild and domesticated animals I know seem to have the same, sometimes to a fault. I would be paniced if I didn't have opposable thumbs to operate doorknobs and open my own food containers!

"Faith" is something not necessarily validated and usually more externalized than internalized.   It seems to require the creation and adoption of "stories".

I think it is easy to dismiss what other's take on "faith" as being "on Faith".   I haven't accepted Jesus as my personal Saviour (and frankly I have no idea what that even means) but I do believe there are people who act very much in the "faith" that they were created, and are watched over by a strongly anthropomorphised "God" who sent "his only begotten son" to help resolve the contradictions of "original sin" and "human fallibility", etc... and that somehow giving him (the God and/or his Son or that other fellow often referred to as Holy Ghost) lip service (in private or in public) will fix all that up for them.   I really believe that they believe this... even though it comes off as totally absurd to me. I don't think they are faking it. Well many of them.

Similary, I think my non-scientific friends often dismiss belief in scientific principles which are *very hard to observe* as being articles of Faith rather than faith. I personally admit that I have never really had a single personal experience that validates general relativity or the heisenberg uncertainty principle (or pick any one of millions of highly specialized counter (or extra?) intuitive rules, laws, principles found in the context of science). I've studied the mathematics and the (anecdotal?) descriptions of experiments that have been run and repeated to verify such things, but frankly I can't really call it "faith"... it really is "Faith" in the sense that I believe it because I choose to and because I'm embedded in a community who also believes it and roughly my continued belief (or would that be Belief?) is a requirement for my continued good standing in the community.

While driving in Italy for 3 weeks recently, it took me a while to accept that the motorcycle and scooter riders had complete "faith" that the cars they were whipping past on the left and right (extreme lane splitting) would not do anything overtly dangerous to them. I also found that even car/truck drivers take it on faith that even the slightest trajectory advantage yields "right of way"... if an inch of your bumper is in front of another car's, you can cut them off and they will yield *every time*!   I developed enough Faith to try it and it worked... with that "Faith" and enough experience I'm pretty sure it would have become "faith" for me.   This would not serve me so well upon return to the murrican driving milieu, however.

Like Doug, I've ridden motorcycles for a very long time and have managed to stay off of the pavement, the guardrails, and the hoods and fenders of other vehicles, and I did it by a combination of ultra-vigilance, some common sense, and probably more than a little luck.   I ride (and drive for that matter) with a great deal of "faith" all the time... but I *do* recalibrate my "faith" while on a two-wheeler from being on a four wheeler.

I used to wear a helmet all the time based on the *Faith* that somehow I was not only less likely to have a bad head-injury but somehow I was less likely to have an accident in the first place!   I now wear a helmet more for comfort than for safety... I sometimes prefer the warmth and wind-screening effect of a full-face helmet... other times I prefer the wind in my stubble, the bugs in my teeth and the cinders in my eyes.

Plenty of us feel more likely to have a deadly accident or experience a life threatening (or at least very expensive) disease or condition if we are not carrying low-deductible, high limit insurance. We conflate *stakes* with *risk*.   Is this an act of "faith" or "Faith"?   As a non-believer (in consequence-reduction measures as risk-reduction measures), it looks like Faith in others, yet, I swear they behave as if they really, literally believe in this conflation?

- Steve

Russ,

Well, as was observed the last time we went ‘round on this topic, you have faith in your powers of induction: faith that the world is the sort of a place where floors don’t evaporate after several years of not evaporating. Do you remember the car that drove off the severed bridge in Connecticut some years back? That man had faith that an interstate is not the sort of place where roads suddenly come to an end. Turned out to be false.

By the way, a story circulated about that incident that the last thing that driver did was give the finger to another drive that he had just passed. Urban folklore, right? Too much Karma.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:42 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] faith
I don't buy that "It is faith when you get out of bed without checking to see that the ground is still there." Why should one suppose that the ground would not be there? It seems to me that using "faith" that loosely robs the word of most of its meaning. Faith, I would say (in fact I did earlier) is believing something that one wouldn't otherwise believe without faith. Believing that the everyday world is the everyday world doesn't seem to me to require faith. What would require faith is to believe that the everyday world is somehow not the everyday world but a manifestation of some unknowable being.

-- Russ Abbott
_____________________________________________

Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688
Google voice: 747-999-5105

Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/

vita: sites.google.com/site/russabbott/

CS Wiki and the courses I teach
_____________________________________________
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

It makes for a great academic, philosophical talking point, though.
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 6:13 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:
Since this thread is still going... Curt said:

"Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly."

----
Exactly!

It is faith when you stop monitoring the other cars when driving, stop looking at the ground you are about to step on when walking, etc. It is faith when you get out of bed without checking to see that the ground is still there. The actions themselves entail the faith; they do not result from faith, they are the faith. An interesting additional issue is when we do and do not explicitly talk about the things we have faith in. It might also be an additional issue on what basis some people have faith in a "super-natural" "higher-power". (Both scare-quotes seem necessary, because pretty everyone has faith in higher powers, and most people have faith in things they don't have natural explanations for, but we seem to be focusing primarily on the times when those faiths overlap.)

Eric

P.S. Curt, if you are into Power's Perceptual Control Theory, do you know Richard Marken and Warren Manell's work? They wrote a great article for a journal issue I am putting together.

P.P.S. The notion of "blind" faith is really very modern. Certainly it was not long ago that faith in the Judeo-Christian God was primarily supported by experiential evidence. "Behold the wonders," "experience God in every blade of grass," "check out this amazing cathedral," "our army won," etc. The fact that we sometimes meaningfully talk about "blind faith" seems to indicate that the normal meaning of the term "faith" is not inherently blind.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 12:21 AM, Curt McNamara <[hidden email]> wrote:
I had been nicely ignoring this thread in the belief (faith?) that it would go away without affecting me. Alas, the need for a distraction from grading has drawn me back into its basin of (strange) attraction.

Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly.
Action based on belief: ref. William Powers: Behavior, the Control of Perception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_control_theory

Faith or belief: my mental models of the world will still be true tomorrow. These models have been built over time by hypothesis, testing, and adjustment (toddler and stairs example).

Curt
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------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:505-455-7333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Russ Abbott

Re: faith

In reply to this post by Eric Charles

Eric, For people for whom God is a normal part of their everyday world, faith is not an issue. They simply know whatever it is that they know. It's not matter of faith any more than it's a matter of faith that I'm typing on a keyboard right now.

I mentioned religion because that's where the discussion of faith started. (I think it did anyway.) But my definition of faith does not require religion; it only requires that one believe something for which one has inadequate reason for believing it -- other than one's faith that it's the case. By "inadequate" I mean inadequate according to that person's normal way of deciding what to believe. I don't want to impose any particular epidemiological perspective on anyone.

Nick, I think it's the other way around. As Eric said, faith is a subclass of belief. Faith is a belief you hold for reasons outside your normal epidemiological processes, i.e., a belief you hold that you would not hold were it not for your faith in that belief.

Steve, Your post is too long for me to comment on it here.

-- Russ Abbott
_____________________________________________

Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688
Google voice: 747-999-5105

Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/

vita: sites.google.com/site/russabbott/

CS Wiki and the courses I teach
_____________________________________________

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 9:58 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:

But Russ... if you concede Tory's point, then I think you are quite stuck.

There are many, many, many people for whom the everyday world contains a divine being... and the everyday world is the everyday world. There are people who train hard to see God surrounding them, and there are people for whom it seems to come quite naturally (which is not to say it didn't develop, just that it came easily). For these people, by your definition, belief in God, and belief that God will continue to be with them forever, are NOT issues of faith.

Eric

P.S. I have no idea what Nick will say about "faith" vs. "belief"! I think the concepts overlap pretty obviously, i.e., faith seems like it should be a subclass of belief. On the other hand, one could treat them as two different ways of talking about the same sort of thing. If we can get past your odd claim that faith has to be religious AND that religious things are not part of everyday life, I would be very interested to know how you think the two relate.
On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 12:41 AM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nick,

As I understand your position the words "faith" and "belief" are synonyms. I would prefer a definition for "faith" that distinguishes it from "belief."

Tory,

Thanks for you comment on my posts. I'm glad you enjoy them.

My definition of faith makes use of the notion of the everyday world. But I'm not saying that the everyday world is the same for everyone. Your everyday world may be different from mine. I'm just saying that believing that the world will continue to conform to your sense of what the everyday world is like is not faith; it's simple belief.

Eric,

I would take "having faith in something" in the colloquial sense as different from "faith" in a religious context, which is what I was focusing on.

-- Russ

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Victoria Hughes <victoria@...> wrote:

Russ wrote, in part-

Faith, I would say (in fact I did earlier)

is believing something that one wouldn't otherwise believe without faith.

Believing that the everyday world is the everyday world

doesn't seem to me to require faith.

Russ, with all due respect for the enjoyment I get from your posts, I find this suspiciously tautological.

Who are you to define for the rest of humanity (and other sentient life forms) what 'the everyday world' incorporates? Numerous 'for instance' cases can immediately be made here. All you can do is define what you believe for yourself. You cannot extrapolate what is defensible for others to believe, from your own beliefs.

And this statement ' Faith is believing something that one wouldn't believe without faith'. Hm and hm again.

Eagleman's new book Incognito offers fruitful information from recent neuroscience that may interest others on this list. His ultimate sections bring up hard questions about legal and ethical issues in the face of the myriad 'zombie programs' that run most of our behaviour. This looks like - but is not as simplistic as - 'yet another pop science book.'

A review David Eagleman's "Incognito" - Brainiac

Tory

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

Steve Smith

Re: faith

Steve, Your post is too long for me to comment on it here.

Random anecdotal examples aside, my central point of "faith" as an article of a validated model vs "Faith" as a more consciously adopted element not backed up by the same type of validation seems pretty concise?

-- Russ Abbott
_____________________________________________
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688
Google voice: 747-999-5105

Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/

vita: sites.google.com/site/russabbott/

CS Wiki and the courses I teach
_____________________________________________
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 9:58 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:
But Russ... if you concede Tory's point, then I think you are quite stuck.

There are many, many, many people for whom the everyday world contains a divine being... and the everyday world is the everyday world. There are people who train hard to see God surrounding them, and there are people for whom it seems to come quite naturally (which is not to say it didn't develop, just that it came easily). For these people, by your definition, belief in God, and belief that God will continue to be with them forever, are NOT issues of faith.

Eric

P.S. I have no idea what Nick will say about "faith" vs. "belief"! I think the concepts overlap pretty obviously, i.e., faith seems like it should be a subclass of belief. On the other hand, one could treat them as two different ways of talking about the same sort of thing. If we can get past your odd claim that faith has to be religious AND that religious things are not part of everyday life, I would be very interested to know how you think the two relate.
On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 12:41 AM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nick,

As I understand your position the words "faith" and "belief" are synonyms. I would prefer a definition for "faith" that distinguishes it from "belief."

Tory,

Thanks for you comment on my posts. I'm glad you enjoy them.

My definition of faith makes use of the notion of the everyday world. But I'm not saying that the everyday world is the same for everyone. Your everyday world may be different from mine. I'm just saying that believing that the world will continue to conform to your sense of what the everyday world is like is not faith; it's simple belief.

Eric,

I would take "having faith in something" in the colloquial sense as different from "faith" in a religious context, which is what I was focusing on.

-- Russ

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Victoria Hughes <victoria@...> wrote:

Russ wrote, in part-

Faith, I would say (in fact I did earlier)

is believing something that one wouldn't otherwise believe without faith.

Believing that the everyday world is the everyday world

doesn't seem to me to require faith.

Russ, with all due respect for the enjoyment I get from your posts, I find this suspiciously tautological.

Who are you to define for the rest of humanity (and other sentient life forms) what 'the everyday world' incorporates? Numerous 'for instance' cases can immediately be made here. All you can do is define what you believe for yourself. You cannot extrapolate what is defensible for others to believe, from your own beliefs.

And this statement ' Faith is believing something that one wouldn't believe without faith'. Hm and hm again.

Eagleman's new book Incognito offers fruitful information from recent neuroscience that may interest others on this list. His ultimate sections bring up hard questions about legal and ethical issues in the face of the myriad 'zombie programs' that run most of our behaviour. This looks like - but is not as simplistic as - 'yet another pop science book.'

A review David Eagleman's "Incognito" - Brainiac

Tory

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601
============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Steve Smith

Re: faith

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Steve, Your post is too long for me to comment on it here.

-- Russ Abbott
_____________________________________________
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688
Google voice: 747-999-5105

Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/

vita: sites.google.com/site/russabbott/

CS Wiki and the courses I teach
_____________________________________________
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 9:58 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:
But Russ... if you concede Tory's point, then I think you are quite stuck.

There are many, many, many people for whom the everyday world contains a divine being... and the everyday world is the everyday world. There are people who train hard to see God surrounding them, and there are people for whom it seems to come quite naturally (which is not to say it didn't develop, just that it came easily). For these people, by your definition, belief in God, and belief that God will continue to be with them forever, are NOT issues of faith.

Eric

P.S. I have no idea what Nick will say about "faith" vs. "belief"! I think the concepts overlap pretty obviously, i.e., faith seems like it should be a subclass of belief. On the other hand, one could treat them as two different ways of talking about the same sort of thing. If we can get past your odd claim that faith has to be religious AND that religious things are not part of everyday life, I would be very interested to know how you think the two relate.
On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 12:41 AM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nick,

As I understand your position the words "faith" and "belief" are synonyms. I would prefer a definition for "faith" that distinguishes it from "belief."

Tory,

Thanks for you comment on my posts. I'm glad you enjoy them.

My definition of faith makes use of the notion of the everyday world. But I'm not saying that the everyday world is the same for everyone. Your everyday world may be different from mine. I'm just saying that believing that the world will continue to conform to your sense of what the everyday world is like is not faith; it's simple belief.

Eric,

I would take "having faith in something" in the colloquial sense as different from "faith" in a religious context, which is what I was focusing on.

-- Russ

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Victoria Hughes <victoria@...> wrote:

Russ wrote, in part-

Faith, I would say (in fact I did earlier)

is believing something that one wouldn't otherwise believe without faith.

Believing that the everyday world is the everyday world

doesn't seem to me to require faith.

Russ, with all due respect for the enjoyment I get from your posts, I find this suspiciously tautological.

Who are you to define for the rest of humanity (and other sentient life forms) what 'the everyday world' incorporates? Numerous 'for instance' cases can immediately be made here. All you can do is define what you believe for yourself. You cannot extrapolate what is defensible for others to believe, from your own beliefs.

And this statement ' Faith is believing something that one wouldn't believe without faith'. Hm and hm again.

Eagleman's new book Incognito offers fruitful information from recent neuroscience that may interest others on this list. His ultimate sections bring up hard questions about legal and ethical issues in the face of the myriad 'zombie programs' that run most of our behaviour. This looks like - but is not as simplistic as - 'yet another pop science book.'

A review David Eagleman's "Incognito" - Brainiac

Tory

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Russ Abbott

Re: faith

Steve,

OK. Those seem like two distinct meanings of "faith." I was talking and thinking of your second one.

-- Russ

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 10:29 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve, Your post is too long for me to comment on it here.

Random anecdotal examples aside, my central point of "faith" as an article of a validated model vs "Faith" as a more consciously adopted element not backed up by the same type of validation seems pretty concise?
-- Russ Abbott
_____________________________________________
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688
Google voice: 747-999-5105

Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/

vita: sites.google.com/site/russabbott/

CS Wiki and the courses I teach
_____________________________________________
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 9:58 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:
But Russ... if you concede Tory's point, then I think you are quite stuck.

There are many, many, many people for whom the everyday world contains a divine being... and the everyday world is the everyday world. There are people who train hard to see God surrounding them, and there are people for whom it seems to come quite naturally (which is not to say it didn't develop, just that it came easily). For these people, by your definition, belief in God, and belief that God will continue to be with them forever, are NOT issues of faith.

Eric

P.S. I have no idea what Nick will say about "faith" vs. "belief"! I think the concepts overlap pretty obviously, i.e., faith seems like it should be a subclass of belief. On the other hand, one could treat them as two different ways of talking about the same sort of thing. If we can get past your odd claim that faith has to be religious AND that religious things are not part of everyday life, I would be very interested to know how you think the two relate.
On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 12:41 AM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:
Nick,

As I understand your position the words "faith" and "belief" are synonyms. I would prefer a definition for "faith" that distinguishes it from "belief."

Tory,

Thanks for you comment on my posts. I'm glad you enjoy them.

My definition of faith makes use of the notion of the everyday world. But I'm not saying that the everyday world is the same for everyone. Your everyday world may be different from mine. I'm just saying that believing that the world will continue to conform to your sense of what the everyday world is like is not faith; it's simple belief.

Eric,

I would take "having faith in something" in the colloquial sense as different from "faith" in a religious context, which is what I was focusing on.

-- Russ

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Victoria Hughes <victoria@...> wrote:

Russ wrote, in part-

Faith, I would say (in fact I did earlier)

is believing something that one wouldn't otherwise believe without faith.

Believing that the everyday world is the everyday world

doesn't seem to me to require faith.

Russ, with all due respect for the enjoyment I get from your posts, I find this suspiciously tautological.

Who are you to define for the rest of humanity (and other sentient life forms) what 'the everyday world' incorporates? Numerous 'for instance' cases can immediately be made here. All you can do is define what you believe for yourself. You cannot extrapolate what is defensible for others to believe, from your own beliefs.

And this statement ' Faith is believing something that one wouldn't believe without faith'. Hm and hm again.

Eagleman's new book Incognito offers fruitful information from recent neuroscience that may interest others on this list. His ultimate sections bring up hard questions about legal and ethical issues in the face of the myriad 'zombie programs' that run most of our behaviour. This looks like - but is not as simplistic as - 'yet another pop science book.'

A review David Eagleman's "Incognito" - Brainiac

Tory

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Eric Charles

Re: faith

In reply to this post by Eric Charles

"By 'inadequate' I mean inadequate according to that person's normal way of deciding what to believe."

But... Again I am confused... and admittedly being confused is often a step on the way to understanding...

Who have you ever known who believed in God, and that belief was not "normal", i.e. typical-for-them. I am not sure how you (as a third party) or I (as a first party) could determine which of my belief's were arrived at in the normal-way-by-which-I-arrive-at-beliefs. I also suspect that if we did arrive at such a criterion, the things I believe by faith would be quite random, and of little interest - for example, I am not sure on what basis I believe I probably missed the last episode of So You Think You Can Dance, but I believe I could probably Torrent it, and I believe it would make my wife happily, though I also believe NBC should make it available for free a bit after it airs. Which of those came by the normal means?

If we are returning to the start of this conversation (or at least what I think was the start of this thread), my belief that there is NOT a Judeo-Christian God is a bit a-typical for me, and likely by your criterion is a kind of Faith. There are lots of things I don't believe in, which other people seem to believe in (e.g., dictionaries), but I have pretty good reasons not to believe in those (e.g., the historic inaccuracy of the assertion that words have one and only one spelling).

Eric

P.S. I am not sure how crucial the word "decide" is to your point. I would argue, one does not typically "decide" what to believe. That is, the developmental process that forms the majority of our beliefs is not adequately characterized by the term "decide". Beliefs we consciously decided upon are surely a special case.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 01:13 AM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eric, For people for whom God is a normal part of their everyday world, faith is not an issue. They simply know whatever it is that they know. It's not matter of faith any more than it's a matter of faith that I'm typing on a keyboard right now.

I mentioned religion because that's where the discussion of faith started. (I think it did anyway.) But my definition of faith does not require religion; it only requires that one believe something for which one has inadequate reason for believing it -- other than one's faith that it's the case. By "inadequate" I mean inadequate according to that person's normal way of deciding what to believe. I don't want to impose any particular epidemiological perspective on anyone.

Nick, I think it's the other way around. As Eric said, faith is a subclass of belief. Faith is a belief you hold for reasons outside your normal epidemiological processes, i.e., a belief you hold that you would not hold were it not for your faith in that belief.

Steve, Your post is too long for me to comment on it here.

-- Russ Abbott
_____________________________________________
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California State University, Los Angeles

My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: <a href="http://ssrn.com/abstract=1977688" target="" onclick="window.open('http://ssrn.com/abstract=1977688');return false;">ssrn.com/abstract=1977688
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On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 9:58 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <epc2@...> wrote:
But Russ... if you concede Tory's point, then I think you are quite stuck.

There are many, many, many people for whom the everyday world contains a divine being... and the everyday world is the everyday world. There are people who train hard to see God surrounding them, and there are people for whom it seems to come quite naturally (which is not to say it didn't develop, just that it came easily). For these people, by your definition, belief in God, and belief that God will continue to be with them forever, are NOT issues of faith.

Eric

P.S. I have no idea what Nick will say about "faith" vs. "belief"! I think the concepts overlap pretty obviously, i.e., faith seems like it should be a subclass of belief. On the other hand, one could treat them as two different ways of talking about the same sort of thing. If we can get past your odd claim that faith has to be religious AND that religious things are not part of everyday life, I would be very interested to know how you think the two relate.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 12:41 AM, Russ Abbott <russ.abbott@...> wrote:

Nick,

As I understand your position the words "faith" and "belief" are synonyms. I would prefer a definition for "faith" that distinguishes it from "belief."

Tory,

Thanks for you comment on my posts. I'm glad you enjoy them.

My definition of faith makes use of the notion of the everyday world. But I'm not saying that the everyday world is the same for everyone. Your everyday world may be different from mine. I'm just saying that believing that the world will continue to conform to your sense of what the everyday world is like is not faith; it's simple belief.

Eric,

I would take "having faith in something" in the colloquial sense as different from "faith" in a religious context, which is what I was focusing on.

-- Russ

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 9:27 PM, Victoria Hughes <victoria@...> wrote:

Russ wrote, in part-

Faith, I would say (in fact I did earlier)

is believing something that one wouldn't otherwise believe without faith.

Believing that the everyday world is the everyday world

doesn't seem to me to require faith.

Russ, with all due respect for the enjoyment I get from your posts, I find this suspiciously tautological.

Who are you to define for the rest of humanity (and other sentient life forms) what 'the everyday world' incorporates? Numerous 'for instance' cases can immediately be made here. All you can do is define what you believe for yourself. You cannot extrapolate what is defensible for others to believe, from your own beliefs.

And this statement ' Faith is believing something that one wouldn't believe without faith'. Hm and hm again.

Eagleman's new book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Incognito-Secret-Lives-David-Eagleman/dp/0307389928/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348460523&sr=1-1&keywords=incognito+by+david+eagleman" target="" onclick="window.open('http://www.amazon.com/Incognito-Secret-Lives-David-Eagleman/dp/0307389928/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348460523&sr=1-1&keywords=incognito+by+david+eagleman');return false;">Incognito offers fruitful information from recent neuroscience that may interest others on this list. His ultimate sections bring up hard questions about legal and ethical issues in the face of the myriad 'zombie programs' that run most of our behaviour. This looks like - but is not as simplistic as - 'yet another pop science book.'

A review <a href="http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/brainiac/2011/06/david_eaglemans.html" target="" onclick="window.open('http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/brainiac/2011/06/david_eaglemans.html');return false;">David Eagleman's "Incognito" - Brainiac

Tory

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Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

Robert Holmes-3

Re: faith

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

It wouldn't hurt to review the entry on faith in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/faith/). In its second paragraph, it distinguishes between a broad definition of faith as trust or belief and the narrower notion of religious faith (think of the email traffic we could have saved if we'd looked this up earlier…). It goes on to explore different models of religious faith some of which the group has discussed and some of which it hasn't:

the ‘purely affective’ model: faith as a feeling of existential confidence
the ‘special knowledge’ model: faith as knowledge of specific truths, revealed by God
the ‘belief’ model: faith as belief that God exists
the ‘trust’ model: faith as belief in (trust in) God
the ‘doxastic venture’ model: faith as practical commitment beyond the evidence to one's belief that God exists
the ‘sub-doxastic venture’ model: faith as practical commitment without belief
the ‘hope’ model: faith as hoping—or acting in the hope that—the God who saves exists.

In short, there's a reason baby Jesus invented Google. Every time you don't use it to inform a discussion, an angel dies.

—R

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 11:44 PM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve,

OK. Those seem like two distinct meanings of "faith." I was talking and thinking of your second one.

-- Russ

Prof David West

Re: faith

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

As another rider (only 44 years) - my faith is that every other driver out there is incompetent, blind, deaf, and out to get me. I credit that faith with my continuing existence!

davew

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012, at 06:23 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

Yeah, well: that philosophy will get you dead if you are a motorcycle rider. Maybe not the first year, but the longer you maintain "faith" that the other diver will stay in his lane, the more likely it becomes that you won't make it home one night.

I've been riding for 48 years, still alive...
--Doug
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 6:13 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:
Since this thread is still going... Curt said:

"Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly."
----
Exactly!

It is faith when you stop monitoring the other cars when driving, stop looking at the ground you are about to step on when walking, etc. It is faith when you get out of bed without checking to see that the ground is still there. The actions themselves entail the faith; they do not result from faith, they are the faith. An interesting additional issue is when we do and do not explicitly talk about the things we have faith in. It might also be an additional issue on what basis some people have faith in a "super-natural" "higher-power". (Both scare-quotes seem necessary, because pretty everyone has faith in higher powers, and most people have faith in things they don't have natural explanations for, but we seem to be focusing primarily on the times when those faiths overlap.)

Eric

P.S. Curt, if you are into Power's Perceptual Control Theory, do you know Richard Marken and Warren Manell's work? They wrote a great article for a journal issue I am putting together.

P.P.S. The notion of "blind" faith is really very modern. Certainly it was not long ago that faith in the Judeo-Christian God was primarily supported by experiential evidence. "Behold the wonders," "experience God in every blade of grass," "check out this amazing cathedral," "our army won," etc. The fact that we sometimes meaningfully talk about "blind faith" seems to indicate that the normal meaning of the term "faith" is not inherently blind.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 12:21 AM, Curt McNamara <[hidden email]> wrote:
I had been nicely ignoring this thread in the belief (faith?) that it would go away without affecting me. Alas, the need for a distraction from grading has drawn me back into its basin of (strange) attraction.

Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly.
Action based on belief: ref. William Powers: Behavior, the Control of Perception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_control_theory

Faith or belief: my mental models of the world will still be true tomorrow. These models have been built over time by hypothesis, testing, and adjustment (toddler and stairs example).

Curt
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Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601
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Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
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Douglas Roberts-2

Re: faith

Goddamn, Dave! I just realized that I have faith!

--Doug

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 8:21 AM, Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

As another rider (only 44 years) - my faith is that every other driver out there is incompetent, blind, deaf, and out to get me. I credit that faith with my continuing existence!

davew
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012, at 06:23 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:
Yeah, well: that philosophy will get you dead if you are a motorcycle rider. Maybe not the first year, but the longer you maintain "faith" that the other diver will stay in his lane, the more likely it becomes that you won't make it home one night.

I've been riding for 48 years, still alive...
--Doug
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 6:13 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:
Since this thread is still going... Curt said:

"Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly."
----
Exactly!

It is faith when you stop monitoring the other cars when driving, stop looking at the ground you are about to step on when walking, etc. It is faith when you get out of bed without checking to see that the ground is still there. The actions themselves entail the faith; they do not result from faith, they are the faith. An interesting additional issue is when we do and do not explicitly talk about the things we have faith in. It might also be an additional issue on what basis some people have faith in a "super-natural" "higher-power". (Both scare-quotes seem necessary, because pretty everyone has faith in higher powers, and most people have faith in things they don't have natural explanations for, but we seem to be focusing primarily on the times when those faiths overlap.)

Eric

P.S. Curt, if you are into Power's Perceptual Control Theory, do you know Richard Marken and Warren Manell's work? They wrote a great article for a journal issue I am putting together.

P.P.S. The notion of "blind" faith is really very modern. Certainly it was not long ago that faith in the Judeo-Christian God was primarily supported by experiential evidence. "Behold the wonders," "experience God in every blade of grass," "check out this amazing cathedral," "our army won," etc. The fact that we sometimes meaningfully talk about "blind faith" seems to indicate that the normal meaning of the term "faith" is not inherently blind.

On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 12:21 AM, Curt McNamara <[hidden email]> wrote:
I had been nicely ignoring this thread in the belief (faith?) that it would go away without affecting me. Alas, the need for a distraction from grading has drawn me back into its basin of (strange) attraction.

Faith: that the other drivers will stay on their side of the road. I don't have to track every one exactly.
Action based on belief: ref. William Powers: Behavior, the Control of Perception.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_control_theory

Faith or belief: my mental models of the world will still be true tomorrow. These models have been built over time by hypothesis, testing, and adjustment (toddler and stairs example).

Curt
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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------------

Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" value="+15056708195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

Nick Thompson

Re: faith

In reply to this post by Robert Holmes-3

Robert,

Your model of intellectual life – don’t speak until you look it up and shut up afterwards – is different from mine (obviously). I am more of a protestant in such matters: In matters of philosophy, each person has ultimately to figure it out for himself.

Whatever SEP might dictate, I am still interested in how Russ might compose a sentence – faithful to his notion of faith – that speaks of faith he does not believe in or of a belief in which he does not have faith. I guess its fair to say that in matters of small f faith, you are a catholic and I am a quaker. I really don’t care about what the minister has to say; I want to hear from the congregation.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert Holmes
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 8:38 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] faith

the ‘purely affective’ model: faith as a feeling of existential confidence
the ‘special knowledge’ model: faith as knowledge of specific truths, revealed by God
the ‘belief’ model: faith as belief that God exists
the ‘trust’ model: faith as belief in (trust in) God
the ‘doxastic venture’ model: faith as practical commitment beyond the evidence to one's belief that God exists
the ‘sub-doxastic venture’ model: faith as practical commitment without belief
the ‘hope’ model: faith as hoping—or acting in the hope that—the God who saves exists.

In short, there's a reason baby Jesus invented Google. Every time you don't use it to inform a discussion, an angel dies.

—R

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 11:44 PM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

Steve,

OK. Those seem like two distinct meanings of "faith." I was talking and thinking of your second one.

-- Russ

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