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FW: Math (On Electric Car)

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Nick Thompson

FW: Math (On Electric Car)

Hi, Folks,

I am on the list of a right-wing ranter. Every once in a while he sends me something that is specific enough to be refuted. Or confirmed, for that matter. I wonder what folks on this list thought of this.

See below,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Rusty [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 11:20 AM
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Subject: Math (On Electric Car)

This sounds like a normal way our government saves us......................

Math (On Electric Car)

Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.
It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip, your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.
According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.
16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.20 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile. The gasoline powered car costs about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000.
So the Government wants us to pay 3 times as much, for a car that costs more than 7 times as much to run, and takes 3 times longer to drive across the country.

REALLY?

"GOD BLESS AMERICA"

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Roger Critchlow-2

Re: FW: Math (On Electric Car)

Your ranter should be forced to breath nothing but car exhaust until he changes his mind.

Google says the average cost of electricity to US customers is $0.12/kwh. The most expensive state is Hawaii at $0.37/kwh. So it's $1.92 to charge the battery and $0.0768/mile cost on electricity.

The http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car.html page says the MSRP is $34,185 before tax credits.

Garbage in, garbage out, axe to grind, axe gets ground.

-- rec --

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, Folks,

I am on the list of a right-wing ranter. Every once in a while he sends me something that is specific enough to be refuted. Or confirmed, for that matter. I wonder what folks on this list thought of this.

See below,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Rusty [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 11:20 AM
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Subject: Math (On Electric Car)

This sounds like a normal way our government saves us......................

Math (On Electric Car)

Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip, your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.

16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.20 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile. The gasoline powered car costs about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000.

So the Government wants us to pay 3 times as much, for a car that costs more than 7 times as much to run, and takes 3 times longer to drive across the country.

REALLY?

"GOD BLESS AMERICA"

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: Math (On Electric Car)

Nice poetic touch there, Roger.

Nick, Google is your friend (I’m not trying to shut down discussion, just pointing out that there are dissenting opinions on this very topic). For example, have a look at http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/chevyvolt.asp, which came up with $.07 per mile for the Volt vs. $.11 for a gasoline-only car.

Gary

On May 1, 2014, at 1:32 PM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Your ranter should be forced to breath nothing but car exhaust until he changes his mind.
>
> Google says the average cost of electricity to US customers is $0.12/kwh. The most expensive state is Hawaii at $0.37/kwh. So it's $1.92 to charge the battery and $0.0768/mile cost on electricity.
>
> The http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car.html page says the MSRP is $34,185 before tax credits.
>
> Garbage in, garbage out, axe to grind, axe gets ground.
>
> -- rec --
>
>
> On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi, Folks,
>
>
>
> I am on the list of a right-wing ranter. Every once in a while he sends me something that is specific enough to be refuted. Or confirmed, for that matter. I wonder what folks on this list thought of this.
>
>
>
> See below,
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> From: Rusty [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 11:20 AM
> To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
> Subject: Math (On Electric Car)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This sounds like a normal way our government saves us......................
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Math (On Electric Car)
>
>
>
>
>
> Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.
>
> It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip, your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.
>
> According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.
>
> 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.20 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile. The gasoline powered car costs about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000.
>
> So the Government wants us to pay 3 times as much, for a car that costs more than 7 times as much to run, and takes 3 times longer to drive across the country.
>
>
>
> REALLY?
>
>
>
>
>
> "GOD BLESS AMERICA"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: FW: Math (On Electric Car)

In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2

On Thu, 2014-05-01 at 12:32 -0600, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> Your ranter should be forced to breath nothing but car exhaust until
> he changes his mind.

What a moron. The Volt doesn't need to stop for a charge, but gives the
user option of doing that.

And Tesla has robotic battery swaps that take less time than filling a
tank with gas.

http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Steve Smith

Re: FW: Math (On Electric Car)

In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2

I'm a member of an EV group in Northern NM and I find the discussions about EV viability always to be pretty much religious ones.

I don't believe EVs are practical alternatives to ICE vehicles for anything but the most specific, short range uses.   Most of the time, the answer to ICE vs EV is *walk* or *take the bus* or *stay home*!

That said, there is always a transition time when early adopters, enthusiasts and niche operators naturally emerge to open a niche that will eventually admit a whole new game.   In a totalitarian environment that might not be necessary, but in a relatively open political and economic system, it is the only way it will happen.

Unfortunately, I'm not that proud of our current Electricity generation/distribution grid either.   So that takes the fun out of it.

REC sed:

Your ranter should be forced to breath nothing but car exhaust until he changes his mind.

Google says the average cost of electricity to US customers is $0.12/kwh. The most expensive state is Hawaii at $0.37/kwh. So it's $1.92 to charge the battery and $0.0768/mile cost on electricity.

The http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car.html page says the MSRP is $34,185 before tax credits.

Garbage in, garbage out, axe to grind, axe gets ground.

Rather than breathe nothing but car exhaust for while, go to the 4 corners area and watch/smell/listen to the Kaipowaritz plant suck the water table down to sluice coal 100 miles from Kayenta while spewing sulfurous CO2/CO/NOx/??? etc, or down the road to the Glen Canyon Damn and Lake Foul, "destroying the ecosystem of the Colorado". Or drop in at Chernobyl or TMI or Fukashima and consider whether the price of refrigerating food you are going to throw out anyway is "worth it". And all this to keep Las Vegas slot machines dinging and flashing lights and/or Phoenix and/or Los Angeles lights burning bright night and day! Or keep my laptop charged and my router powered so I can blather on here.

I'm actually in the process of "balancing" about 70lbs of NiMH batteries from my 13 year old Honda Insight hybrid. I can't say that there is anything *economic* about any of this... it really does require some "spiritual" skin in the game to be worthwhile. Fortunately the *first owner* ate the majority of the depreciation for a semi-custom aluminum/polymer ultra-light, aerodynamic, nearly experimental hybrid-drive train, grossly-underpowered-if-not-for-the-Electric-Boost car that retailed about the same as small SUV or a sporty conventional car. I picked it up at 130K miles right after Honda replaced the batteries (with reconditioned, not new) ones. 40K later, I'm "reconditioning" them again rather than throwing them into the landfill and sucking another 50 lbs of precious metals out of the ground to go again.

For these reasons, I just want to carry a roll of duct tape around for anti EV wankers to wrap their faces in when they start yapping their axe-grinding tripe (to mix metaphors).

Grinding my own Adze!
- Sleaze

-- rec --

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, Folks,

I am on the list of a right-wing ranter. Every once in a while he sends me something that is specific enough to be refuted. Or confirmed, for that matter. I wonder what folks on this list thought of this.

See below,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Rusty [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 11:20 AM
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Subject: Math (On Electric Car)

This sounds like a normal way our government saves us......................

Math (On Electric Car)

Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles.

It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip, your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery holds 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.

16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.20 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile. The gasoline powered car costs about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000.

So the Government wants us to pay 3 times as much, for a car that costs more than 7 times as much to run, and takes 3 times longer to drive across the country.

REALLY?

"GOD BLESS AMERICA"

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: FW: Math (On Electric Car)

On Thu, 2014-05-01 at 13:16 -0600, Steve Smith wrote:
> I'm a member of an EV group in Northern NM and I find the discussions
> about EV viability always to be pretty much religious ones.

When one consciously spends more to advance the market for progressive
technology, it is annoying when cretins lie about the facts of the
matter. So yes, sit him down in front of a nice tail pipe, and tie him
to the bumper too. Useless.

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Gillian Densmore

Re: FW: Math (On Electric Car)

Energy production cost is a pipeline issue. The NIMBI's: Breeder reactors, recycling rods, Hybrid Fusion/Fision--or on the more extreme scale Matter-Anti-Matter.Are slightly cheerper. (reduced bucks per KW) Though do have there own issues.Somewhere in the middle are ways to leverage the big ass rock covered in gasses eletical properties.

PopularScience,Nature, and I think Popular Mechanic have (and had) a re-accuring test run of inductive chargers that you can put on some electric cars.

I don't understand the science entirely, the article I'm thinking of had one with with what looked like antenas on it. such that when the car was idle for some period of time the baked in recharing mechanics would kick, but somehow- these dooddads would get just enough more particles from someplace to extend it's range a bit.

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Marcus G. Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, 2014-05-01 at 13:16 -0600, Steve Smith wrote:
> I'm a member of an EV group in Northern NM and I find the discussions
> about EV viability always to be pretty much religious ones.

When one consciously spends more to advance the market for progressive
technology, it is annoying when cretins lie about the facts of the
matter. So yes, sit him down in front of a nice tail pipe, and tie him
to the bumper too. Useless.

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Gillian Densmore

Re: FW: Math (On Electric Car)

The volt offers a house current level charger as well as a more industrial one. As does Tesla, and the EV. He didn't say wich one he was using, that'd impact his recharging time. I'm wondering why a solar charger isn't offered as well.

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 5:51 PM, Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Energy production cost is a pipeline issue. The NIMBI's: Breeder reactors, recycling rods, Hybrid Fusion/Fision--or on the more extreme scale Matter-Anti-Matter.Are slightly cheerper. (reduced bucks per KW) Though do have there own issues.Somewhere in the middle are ways to leverage the big ass rock covered in gasses eletical properties.

PopularScience,Nature, and I think Popular Mechanic have (and had) a re-accuring test run of inductive chargers that you can put on some electric cars.
I don't understand the science entirely, the article I'm thinking of had one with with what looked like antenas on it. such that when the car was idle for some period of time the baked in recharing mechanics would kick, but somehow- these dooddads would get just enough more particles from someplace to extend it's range a bit.

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Marcus G. Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, 2014-05-01 at 13:16 -0600, Steve Smith wrote:
> I'm a member of an EV group in Northern NM and I find the discussions
> about EV viability always to be pretty much religious ones.

When one consciously spends more to advance the market for progressive
technology, it is annoying when cretins lie about the facts of the
matter. So yes, sit him down in front of a nice tail pipe, and tie him
to the bumper too. Useless.

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Eric Charles-2

Re: FW: Math (On Electric Car)

Well, look... the original ranter is clearly right about some things and wrong about others.

IF you wanted to really gain the minimal cost-per-mile on a cross country drive in an electric car, it would take you a ridiculously long time to get across the country. Also, the amount of time it takes to hit the tradeoff in cost between electric and gas (higher up-front costs vs. cheaper mileage cost) is way longer than most people think.

That said, the car isn't optimized for cross-country drives, it is optimized for modal driving habits, i.e., daily commute and errands, parked overnight. Further, as many have pointed out, electric and hybrid personal vehicles are still at the tail edge of tehir "early adopter" phase. Thus, it would be unsurprising to find that many people are making the purchase "because they want it", even if it is not a superior dollar-for-value investment.

Eric

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Lab Manager
Center for Teaching, Research, and Learning
American University, Hurst Hall Room 203A
4400 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC 20016
phone: (202) 885-3867 fax: (202) 885-1190
email: [hidden email]

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

The volt offers a house current level charger as well as a more industrial one. As does Tesla, and the EV. He didn't say wich one he was using, that'd impact his recharging time. I'm wondering why a solar charger isn't offered as well.

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 5:51 PM, Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Energy production cost is a pipeline issue. The NIMBI's: Breeder reactors, recycling rods, Hybrid Fusion/Fision--or on the more extreme scale Matter-Anti-Matter.Are slightly cheerper. (reduced bucks per KW) Though do have there own issues.Somewhere in the middle are ways to leverage the big ass rock covered in gasses eletical properties.

PopularScience,Nature, and I think Popular Mechanic have (and had) a re-accuring test run of inductive chargers that you can put on some electric cars.
I don't understand the science entirely, the article I'm thinking of had one with with what looked like antenas on it. such that when the car was idle for some period of time the baked in recharing mechanics would kick, but somehow- these dooddads would get just enough more particles from someplace to extend it's range a bit.

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Marcus G. Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, 2014-05-01 at 13:16 -0600, Steve Smith wrote:
> I'm a member of an EV group in Northern NM and I find the discussions
> about EV viability always to be pretty much religious ones.

When one consciously spends more to advance the market for progressive
technology, it is annoying when cretins lie about the facts of the
matter. So yes, sit him down in front of a nice tail pipe, and tie him
to the bumper too. Useless.

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Gillian Densmore

Re: FW: Math (On Electric Car)

@Eric Charles. At the risk of making this thread longer. Indeed. I'm starting to think an Electric car is would indeed be a shocking experience.

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 8:49 AM, Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, look... the original ranter is clearly right about some things and wrong about others.

IF you wanted to really gain the minimal cost-per-mile on a cross country drive in an electric car, it would take you a ridiculously long time to get across the country. Also, the amount of time it takes to hit the tradeoff in cost between electric and gas (higher up-front costs vs. cheaper mileage cost) is way longer than most people think.

That said, the car isn't optimized for cross-country drives, it is optimized for modal driving habits, i.e., daily commute and errands, parked overnight. Further, as many have pointed out, electric and hybrid personal vehicles are still at the tail edge of tehir "early adopter" phase. Thus, it would be unsurprising to find that many people are making the purchase "because they want it", even if it is not a superior dollar-for-value investment.

Eric

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Lab Manager
Center for Teaching, Research, and Learning
American University, Hurst Hall Room 203A
4400 Massachusetts Avenue, N.W.
Washington, DC 20016
phone: <a href="tel:%28202%29%20885-3867" value="+12028853867" target="_blank">(202) 885-3867 fax: <a href="tel:%28202%29%20885-1190" value="+12028851190" target="_blank">(202) 885-1190
email: [hidden email]

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

The volt offers a house current level charger as well as a more industrial one. As does Tesla, and the EV. He didn't say wich one he was using, that'd impact his recharging time. I'm wondering why a solar charger isn't offered as well.

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 5:51 PM, Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Energy production cost is a pipeline issue. The NIMBI's: Breeder reactors, recycling rods, Hybrid Fusion/Fision--or on the more extreme scale Matter-Anti-Matter.Are slightly cheerper. (reduced bucks per KW) Though do have there own issues.Somewhere in the middle are ways to leverage the big ass rock covered in gasses eletical properties.

PopularScience,Nature, and I think Popular Mechanic have (and had) a re-accuring test run of inductive chargers that you can put on some electric cars.
I don't understand the science entirely, the article I'm thinking of had one with with what looked like antenas on it. such that when the car was idle for some period of time the baked in recharing mechanics would kick, but somehow- these dooddads would get just enough more particles from someplace to extend it's range a bit.

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 2:42 PM, Marcus G. Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, 2014-05-01 at 13:16 -0600, Steve Smith wrote:
> I'm a member of an EV group in Northern NM and I find the discussions
> about EV viability always to be pretty much religious ones.

When one consciously spends more to advance the market for progressive
technology, it is annoying when cretins lie about the facts of the
matter. So yes, sit him down in front of a nice tail pipe, and tie him
to the bumper too. Useless.

Marcus

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com