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FRIAM Field Trip?

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Tom Johnson

FRIAM Field Trip?

Anyone want to join me in going out to tour a B-29 tomorrow (Friday, Aug. 1) late morning after usual FRIAM roundup at St. John's? $10 See h<a href="ttp://www.airpowersquadron.org/#!santa-fe-nm/ccjb">ttp://www.airpowersquadron.org/#!santa-fe-nm/ccjb

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson

slideshare.net/jtjohnson/presentations

http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
============================================

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: FRIAM Field Trip?

I am really at a loss here. Why would ANYONE like to tour a B-29? Give me one good reason.

On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Anyone want to join me in going out to tour a B-29 tomorrow (Friday, Aug. 1) late morning after usual FRIAM roundup at St. John's? $10       See http://www.airpowersquadron.org/#!santa-fe-nm/ccjb

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
<a href="tel:505.577.6482" value="+15055776482" target="_blank">505.577.6482(c)               <a href="tel:505.473.9646" value="+15054739646" target="_blank">505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson
slideshare.net/jtjohnson/presentations

http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merlelefkoff

Robert J. Cordingley

Re: FRIAM Field Trip?

Hmm...

to get an appreciation of the macro and micro cultures of American militarism of the period
to marvel at the engineering accomplishments
Fifi is the last B-29 on active flying status* and that can't last forever
a fascination with warcraft

but of course that's not your point. Should pacifists avoid military museums?

Robert C
* for a price (~$600-$1600) you can book a ride.

On 8/1/14 10:00 AM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:

I am really at a loss here. Why would ANYONE like to tour a B-29? Give me one good reason.

On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Anyone want to join me in going out to tour a B-29 tomorrow (Friday, Aug. 1) late morning after usual FRIAM roundup at St. John's? $10       See http://www.airpowersquadron.org/#!santa-fe-nm/ccjb

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:505.577.6482" value="+15055776482" target="_blank">505.577.6482(c)               <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:505.473.9646" value="+15054739646" target="_blank">505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson

slideshare.net/jtjohnson/presentations

http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merlelefkoff
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Tom Johnson

Re: FRIAM Field Trip?

In reply to this post by Merle Lefkoff-2

For the same reason 4-year-old boys will spend hours watching videos of bull dozers at work.
-tj

On Aug 1, 2014 10:01 AM, "Merle Lefkoff" <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am really at a loss here. Why would ANYONE like to tour a B-29? Give me one good reason.

On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Anyone want to join me in going out to tour a B-29 tomorrow (Friday, Aug. 1) late morning after usual FRIAM roundup at St. John's? $10       See http://www.airpowersquadron.org/#!santa-fe-nm/ccjb

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
<a href="tel:505.577.6482" value="+15055776482" target="_blank">505.577.6482(c)               <a href="tel:505.473.9646" value="+15054739646" target="_blank">505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson
slideshare.net/jtjohnson/presentations

http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: <a href="tel:%28303%29%20859-5609" value="+13038595609" target="_blank">(303) 859-5609
skype: merlelefkoff

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Steve Smith

Re: FRIAM Field Trip?

In reply to this post by Robert J. Cordingley

Merle -

You ask: "I am really at a loss here. Why would ANYONE like to tour a B-29? Give me one good reason."

Interesting sociological (and gendered?) question!   And some interesting (also gendered?) answers. [TLDR for most of you]

There is definitely a strong bias in many men I know toward enjoying (wallowing in) both mega-technology and warfare. It is an interesting question as to which is the chicken and which is the egg. Are men fascinated by these things because they are indoctrinated to them early or are they fascinated with them early and simply make it more extravagant as adults? Are women who become fascinated by such things abnormal or were they simply indoctrinated differently? Do women just intrinsically "know better"?

I remember two such "toys" of my own... the first being a metal airliner about twice the size of my fist (age 2-3) with the little friction motors in the wheels so that you could spin them up and let them roll under their own power across a hard surface. Trying to make it fly, I threw it over a fence where there was a big loud dog who took exception to my trying to retrieve it.) The safety-yellow road-grader about 4 times the size of my little fist (age 3-4)... and I spent hours and hours on the side of a mound of dirt making roads with it. I don't know that I had ever actually seen a real road-grader doing such a thing but somehow it was "obvious" to me. This I was enjoying so much, I failed to pack it when we moved away and it remained on that pile of dirt until another little boy came along to make rumbly diesel sounds as it skimmed dirt and made level...

I WAS fascinated with both toys and had some idea of what they were about, that on one hand they were fetishes for "full-size" and uber-competent technology for doing "important stuff". On the other hand, I don't know what... what is the magic of such things? Neither was overtly military, but I suppose that was just luck of the draw... or maybe my parents had some inkling that the glory of war was a false path?

I don't remember if/that my sister (2 years my senior) took any interest in such things, though we *did* compete over other "toys"... with me experimenting with her "perfume" making set whilst she made her own *bad smells* with my chemistry set.   This experience made me aware of my own synesthaesia and it set her on a path to majoring in microbiology in college... go figure.

My sister taught me to read by first reading Nancy Drew mysteries to me... for her own entertainment I guess...I did find them interesting enough... but one day she had no new ones and for reasons she cannot explain, she read a book to me whose cover was an illustration of a WWI Sopwith Camel Biplane and a WWII Fokker Triplane in a chase (no guns blazing, so not obviously a dogfight in the stereotypical sense).   The story of these two "gallant knights of the air" caught my fancy and I set out to learn to read using that book and at some point discovered the vaguely parallel experiences of Tom Swift opposite Nancy Drew... why I found an adolescent boy schlepping all over the world solving problems with uber-technology fascinating while my sister found the adventures of a slightly older adolescent girl doing the same thing more locally with advanced social skills and powers of deduction, I can't exactly say... but that was our divergence. Is it nurture reinforcing nature or over-riding it? Would she have been better off if my parents had brought her Tom Swift collections from the library? Or would she have become bored and not become an avid reader?   I wasn't bored with Nancy Drew but boy did the WWI Aces and Tom Swift trump her best moments in a hurry!

Later I began to construct and draw model airplanes, becoming quite fascinated with the "rivet detail" on the WWII fighter planes... I had no significant interest in the armaments on these amazingly capable phenotype-extenders, those transportation-prostheses.   I saw airplanes (and all vehicles) as elaborate prosthesis which amplified my ability to (especially) move through space rapidly, over long distances and in unfamiliar mediums such as air, water, vacuum, even boring through the ground (which Tom Swift was THAT?).    My favorite antique book is one of "rivet patterns" from the 1850s which shows a thousand ways to join "boilerplate" into various *steamtight* vessels.   It also has a section "ingenious mechanisms for inventors and engineers". I gave it to my nephew who is studying to be a Material Science Engineer with the idea that if Eric Drexler was right, then perhaps nano-materials will be macro-technologic mimics.   Gears, levers, guides, cams, etc. Who knows, maybe even riveted boilerplate (probably not)!

This early fascination with aviation lead me to take a "pilot ground school" class taught by one of the HS coaches who owned (a share in) a plane and then during the summer between my sophomore and junior year in college I had the opportunity to buy a 1947 Luscombe 2-seat taildragger for the princely sum of $2000!   It was virtually all I had in the bank... but I already a good summer job near an airport without a tower and spent that summer honing my skills at sunrise for an hour or two. Me and a row of ratty cropdusters.   A retired cropduster and a vietnam helicopter pilot taught me the basics and stood back... in it's own way it was less dangerous than my motorcycle riding at the time with a stall speed of 45 mph... could (crash) land it anywhere and except for a few manouvres it was well built enough to withstand any aerial nonsense

All that said, I'm not that interested in a B-29... but do understand how many people (albeit mostly men?) would be for roughly the reasons Cordingly enumerates here.   I'd rather ogle the MIGs at the airport for their low-tech implementation of high-tech concepts (Vacuum Tube electronics?! a jet engine that can burn just about anything from diesel to kerosene?), and for their unfamiliar performance envelope (out of the range of birds, if not out of the range of darts and arrows). But the 1914 Ingram-Foster flyer (copy of the Curtis-Wrigth Model A biplane) at the ABQ Sunport fascinates me a great deal more... a flying machine that could be repaired (even built) by craftsmen of the time with hand tools for the most part. Amazing!

As for Tom's responses... yes, should a pacifist go to a war museum? I went to work at LANL at age 24 *as* a self-avowed pacifist... sadly I conflated peace with lack of active warfare... I actually believed in the doctrine of MAD and that "someone is going to have the big stick, it might as well be us, because we are such good people".   Fortunately I came to understand the fallacy of all that over time... but I *was* very much (otherwise) a pacifist.

> TJ wrote:
>    For the same reason 4-year-old boys will spend hours watching videos of bull dozers at work.

This has a sad note to it.   I spent hours in the dirt with that tiny fetish of a giant yellow machine rather than in front of a TV watching someone else practice the same rituals on camera.   I *did* get over my mega-engineering fetish at some point in my life, but still can feel the stir in my loins when I see some giant yellow machine shoving mountains around or plucking trees up by their roots (as they scream their tree-screams) and dropping them into grinders (that is how 599 got cleared of pinon and juniper before the scraping began) to be turned to mulch on the spot...

Whilst at a cognitive neuroscience conference a few years ago, the researchers were all abuzz about "media budgets" for children. This was not a part of their formal work nor presentations, but it seemed that all of these grandparents had come to realize that their grandchildren were spending excruciatingly inordinate amounts of time with electronic devices.   There was much discussion of the neural coding likely coevolved with long nights around the campfire and how videos and computer games trigger the same wiring.   Of course, a lot of it was grandparents disapproving of how *their* kids raised their own kids, but nevertheless, I was moved.    And in this instant wondering why I am sitting staring at this screen when I could be out moving dirt around with a big yellow (1949 Ford Dump Farm truck) or orange (1970 Kubota small tractor) moving dirt around aimlessly!

Meanwhile, enjoy the tour all!

- Steve

Hmm...

to get an appreciation of the macro and micro cultures of American militarism of the period

to marvel at the engineering accomplishments

Fifi is the last B-29 on active flying status* and that can't last forever

a fascination with warcraft

but of course that's not your point. Should pacifists avoid military museums?

Robert C
* for a price (~$600-$1600) you can book a ride.

On 8/1/14 10:00 AM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Anyone want to join me in going out to tour a B-29 tomorrow (Friday, Aug. 1) late morning after usual FRIAM roundup at St. John's? $10       See http://www.airpowersquadron.org/#!santa-fe-nm/ccjb

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:505.577.6482" value="+15055776482" target="_blank">505.577.6482(c)               <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:505.473.9646" value="+15054739646" target="_blank">505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson

slideshare.net/jtjohnson/presentations

http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merlelefkoff
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Nick Thompson

Re: FRIAM Field Trip?

Are any of you old enough to remember constructing fairly realistic model warplanes that came in preperforated flat sheets of light cardboard …”fold along line A – B”, “insert Tab D in slot 3”, etc. The most relaxing thing ever.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 4:41 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM Field Trip?

Merle -

You ask: "I am really at a loss here. Why would ANYONE like to tour a B-29? Give me one good reason."

Interesting sociological (and gendered?) question!   And some interesting (also gendered?) answers. [TLDR for most of you]

There is definitely a strong bias in many men I know toward enjoying (wallowing in) both mega-technology and warfare. It is an interesting question as to which is the chicken and which is the egg. Are men fascinated by these things because they are indoctrinated to them early or are they fascinated with them early and simply make it more extravagant as adults? Are women who become fascinated by such things abnormal or were they simply indoctrinated differently? Do women just intrinsically "know better"?

I remember two such "toys" of my own... the first being a metal airliner about twice the size of my fist (age 2-3) with the little friction motors in the wheels so that you could spin them up and let them roll under their own power across a hard surface. Trying to make it fly, I threw it over a fence where there was a big loud dog who took exception to my trying to retrieve it.) The safety-yellow road-grader about 4 times the size of my little fist (age 3-4)... and I spent hours and hours on the side of a mound of dirt making roads with it. I don't know that I had ever actually seen a real road-grader doing such a thing but somehow it was "obvious" to me. This I was enjoying so much, I failed to pack it when we moved away and it remained on that pile of dirt until another little boy came along to make rumbly diesel sounds as it skimmed dirt and made level...

I WAS fascinated with both toys and had some idea of what they were about, that on one hand they were fetishes for "full-size" and uber-competent technology for doing "important stuff". On the other hand, I don't know what... what is the magic of such things? Neither was overtly military, but I suppose that was just luck of the draw... or maybe my parents had some inkling that the glory of war was a false path?

I don't remember if/that my sister (2 years my senior) took any interest in such things, though we *did* compete over other "toys"... with me experimenting with her "perfume" making set whilst she made her own *bad smells* with my chemistry set.   This experience made me aware of my own synesthaesia and it set her on a path to majoring in microbiology in college... go figure.

My sister taught me to read by first reading Nancy Drew mysteries to me... for her own entertainment I guess...I did find them interesting enough... but one day she had no new ones and for reasons she cannot explain, she read a book to me whose cover was an illustration of a WWI Sopwith Camel Biplane and a WWII Fokker Triplane in a chase (no guns blazing, so not obviously a dogfight in the stereotypical sense).   The story of these two "gallant knights of the air" caught my fancy and I set out to learn to read using that book and at some point discovered the vaguely parallel experiences of Tom Swift opposite Nancy Drew... why I found an adolescent boy schlepping all over the world solving problems with uber-technology fascinating while my sister found the adventures of a slightly older adolescent girl doing the same thing more locally with advanced social skills and powers of deduction, I can't exactly say... but that was our divergence. Is it nurture reinforcing nature or over-riding it? Would she have been better off if my parents had brought her Tom Swift collections from the library? Or would she have become bored and not become an avid reader?   I wasn't bored with Nancy Drew but boy did the WWI Aces and Tom Swift trump her best moments in a hurry!

Later I began to construct and draw model airplanes, becoming quite fascinated with the "rivet detail" on the WWII fighter planes... I had no significant interest in the armaments on these amazingly capable phenotype-extenders, those transportation-prostheses.   I saw airplanes (and all vehicles) as elaborate prosthesis which amplified my ability to (especially) move through space rapidly, over long distances and in unfamiliar mediums such as air, water, vacuum, even boring through the ground (which Tom Swift was THAT?).    My favorite antique book is one of "rivet patterns" from the 1850s which shows a thousand ways to join "boilerplate" into various *steamtight* vessels.   It also has a section "ingenious mechanisms for inventors and engineers". I gave it to my nephew who is studying to be a Material Science Engineer with the idea that if Eric Drexler was right, then perhaps nano-materials will be macro-technologic mimics.   Gears, levers, guides, cams, etc. Who knows, maybe even riveted boilerplate (probably not)!

This early fascination with aviation lead me to take a "pilot ground school" class taught by one of the HS coaches who owned (a share in) a plane and then during the summer between my sophomore and junior year in college I had the opportunity to buy a 1947 Luscombe 2-seat taildragger for the princely sum of $2000!   It was virtually all I had in the bank... but I already a good summer job near an airport without a tower and spent that summer honing my skills at sunrise for an hour or two. Me and a row of ratty cropdusters.   A retired cropduster and a vietnam helicopter pilot taught me the basics and stood back... in it's own way it was less dangerous than my motorcycle riding at the time with a stall speed of 45 mph... could (crash) land it anywhere and except for a few manouvres it was well built enough to withstand any aerial nonsense

All that said, I'm not that interested in a B-29... but do understand how many people (albeit mostly men?) would be for roughly the reasons Cordingly enumerates here.   I'd rather ogle the MIGs at the airport for their low-tech implementation of high-tech concepts (Vacuum Tube electronics?! a jet engine that can burn just about anything from diesel to kerosene?), and for their unfamiliar performance envelope (out of the range of birds, if not out of the range of darts and arrows). But the 1914 Ingram-Foster flyer (copy of the Curtis-Wrigth Model A biplane) at the ABQ Sunport fascinates me a great deal more... a flying machine that could be repaired (even built) by craftsmen of the time with hand tools for the most part. Amazing!

As for Tom's responses... yes, should a pacifist go to a war museum? I went to work at LANL at age 24 *as* a self-avowed pacifist... sadly I conflated peace with lack of active warfare... I actually believed in the doctrine of MAD and that "someone is going to have the big stick, it might as well be us, because we are such good people".   Fortunately I came to understand the fallacy of all that over time... but I *was* very much (otherwise) a pacifist.

> TJ wrote:
>    For the same reason 4-year-old boys will spend hours watching videos of bull dozers at work.

This has a sad note to it.   I spent hours in the dirt with that tiny fetish of a giant yellow machine rather than in front of a TV watching someone else practice the same rituals on camera.   I *did* get over my mega-engineering fetish at some point in my life, but still can feel the stir in my loins when I see some giant yellow machine shoving mountains around or plucking trees up by their roots (as they scream their tree-screams) and dropping them into grinders (that is how 599 got cleared of pinon and juniper before the scraping began) to be turned to mulch on the spot...

Whilst at a cognitive neuroscience conference a few years ago, the researchers were all abuzz about "media budgets" for children. This was not a part of their formal work nor presentations, but it seemed that all of these grandparents had come to realize that their grandchildren were spending excruciatingly inordinate amounts of time with electronic devices.   There was much discussion of the neural coding likely coevolved with long nights around the campfire and how videos and computer games trigger the same wiring.   Of course, a lot of it was grandparents disapproving of how *their* kids raised their own kids, but nevertheless, I was moved.    And in this instant wondering why I am sitting staring at this screen when I could be out moving dirt around with a big yellow (1949 Ford Dump Farm truck) or orange (1970 Kubota small tractor) moving dirt around aimlessly!

Meanwhile, enjoy the tour all!

- Steve

Hmm...
to get an appreciation of the macro and micro cultures of American militarism of the period
to marvel at the engineering accomplishments
Fifi is the last B-29 on active flying status* and that can't last forever
a fascination with warcraft
but of course that's not your point. Should pacifists avoid military museums?

Robert C
* for a price (~$600-$1600) you can book a ride.
On 8/1/14 10:00 AM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Anyone want to join me in going out to tour a B-29 tomorrow (Friday, Aug. 1) late morning after usual FRIAM roundup at St. John's? $10       See http://www.airpowersquadron.org/#!santa-fe-nm/ccjb

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
<a href="tel:505.577.6482" target="_blank">505.577.6482(c)               <a href="tel:505.473.9646" target="_blank">505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson
slideshare.net/jtjohnson/presentations
http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merlelefkoff
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: FRIAM Field Trip?

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

My, somewhat different version, of Steve’s explanation: I was sentient before the end of WWII (Nick would claim that I am still not sentient). My father was chief engineer of a US Navy heavy cruiser and his brother was a bomber pilot who flew many missions over Europe. Neither was unaware of the horrors of their temporary vocations. My father was a couple hundred feet from the explosion which killed approximately 2000 men aboard the USS Arizona; several tens of thousands of US airmen were killed while flying missions over Europe. Neither of those men were inclined to talk about their military service. I, however, developed a keen interest in powerful machines and how they operate. Vestiges of that interest remain today. The imprint of early childhood is powerful. I will refrain from reporting all the details of my father’s ship: 125,000 horsepower, 13,000 tons of steel capable of traveling 35 miles per hour, two airplanes aboard for reconnaissance and search and rescue.

I’d have gone to the B-29 tour but I have already toured B-17s, which are smaller and not as technologically advanced.

Frank

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz

Santa Fe, NM 87505

[hidden email] [hidden email]

Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 2:41 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM Field Trip?

Hmm...
to get an appreciation of the macro and micro cultures of American militarism of the period
to marvel at the engineering accomplishments
Fifi is the last B-29 on active flying status* and that can't last forever
a fascination with warcraft
but of course that's not your point. Should pacifists avoid military museums?

Robert C
* for a price (~$600-$1600) you can book a ride.
On 8/1/14 10:00 AM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Anyone want to join me in going out to tour a B-29 tomorrow (Friday, Aug. 1) late morning after usual FRIAM roundup at St. John's? $10       See http://www.airpowersquadron.org/#!santa-fe-nm/ccjb

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
<a href="tel:505.577.6482" target="_blank">505.577.6482(c)               <a href="tel:505.473.9646" target="_blank">505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson
slideshare.net/jtjohnson/presentations
http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merlelefkoff
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Steve Smith

Re: FRIAM Field Trip?

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

On 8/1/14 2:55 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Are any of you old enough to remember constructing fairly realistic model warplanes that came in preperforated flat sheets of light cardboard …”fold along line A – B”, “insert Tab D in slot 3”, etc. The most relaxing thing ever.

Nick -

I do remember these, but not as a relaxation, more of a major obsession... out of all of my toy models as a child... these were my favorite because they were incredibly cheap, they were robust to my poor handling, and they were relatively good fliers (some of them). I few years ago I got a nostalgic bone and went looking on the internet for these and found what I think are at least a few of the several designs I had once.

http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/airplanes/

I think mine came not *on* a cereal box, but as something I could order *from* a cereal box... I remember taping a dime onto the order form cut from the box and addressing an envelope, adding a $.03? stamp. I knew somehow that these were relics (the paper designs, not just the planes) from a different time and it totally fascinated me. I was used to paying $1 or more for a plastic model that didn't even begin to pretend to fly. This was a lot to a kid whose "chores" paid $.25 a week, but we only went to town once a month so heck I could buy a new model every month if I did extra chores! and in those days, nobody knew you got high from the solvent in the glue, no wonder we had such fun, we were burning out brain cells!

Koopman (jr) is kinda weird here about his "fair use" but one can download and build these little buggers it seems (just don't exchange any moneys!). Despite my nostalgic fascination, I have not yet bothered to put cardstock into my printer and print one of these up, much less cut and glue and test!

As I remember it, the Flying Tigers P40 was my favorite of all ( the animal-morphic paintjob?), but the Hellcat was similar to my favorite *plastic* WWII era Corsair that I had a real special place in my heart for it. I damaged it beyond flight, however, when trying to modify it to have the same inverted gull-wing as the Corsair which I found rakishly kewl at the time (8 years old?). I kept waiting for additional designs to come out but they never did.

The Aichi Val, with it's nearly ellipse-shaped wings was the best flier... I let the rest sit on the dirt while this one did numerous overflights, aerobatics and nearly-graceful landings.

Soon after that I discovered boomerangs and WWII paper fliers became passe... (you too can have an authentic pre-loved orange-plastic Wham-O)

When do you get back? I might even join you at a FRIAM en-verite and we can sit around with a bottle of Elmers glue and some scissors and freak out the Johnnies there with our nonsense! A bunch of old farts running about tossing small cardboard planes at one another! And squirting lemon juice in the resulting paper cuts... just like here on the mail list!

- Steve

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 4:41 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM Field Trip?

Merle -

You ask: "I am really at a loss here. Why would ANYONE like to tour a B-29? Give me one good reason."

Interesting sociological (and gendered?) question!   And some interesting (also gendered?) answers. [TLDR for most of you]

There is definitely a strong bias in many men I know toward enjoying (wallowing in) both mega-technology and warfare. It is an interesting question as to which is the chicken and which is the egg. Are men fascinated by these things because they are indoctrinated to them early or are they fascinated with them early and simply make it more extravagant as adults? Are women who become fascinated by such things abnormal or were they simply indoctrinated differently? Do women just intrinsically "know better"?

I remember two such "toys" of my own... the first being a metal airliner about twice the size of my fist (age 2-3) with the little friction motors in the wheels so that you could spin them up and let them roll under their own power across a hard surface. Trying to make it fly, I threw it over a fence where there was a big loud dog who took exception to my trying to retrieve it.) The safety-yellow road-grader about 4 times the size of my little fist (age 3-4)... and I spent hours and hours on the side of a mound of dirt making roads with it. I don't know that I had ever actually seen a real road-grader doing such a thing but somehow it was "obvious" to me. This I was enjoying so much, I failed to pack it when we moved away and it remained on that pile of dirt until another little boy came along to make rumbly diesel sounds as it skimmed dirt and made level...

I WAS fascinated with both toys and had some idea of what they were about, that on one hand they were fetishes for "full-size" and uber-competent technology for doing "important stuff". On the other hand, I don't know what... what is the magic of such things? Neither was overtly military, but I suppose that was just luck of the draw... or maybe my parents had some inkling that the glory of war was a false path?

I don't remember if/that my sister (2 years my senior) took any interest in such things, though we *did* compete over other "toys"... with me experimenting with her "perfume" making set whilst she made her own *bad smells* with my chemistry set.   This experience made me aware of my own synesthaesia and it set her on a path to majoring in microbiology in college... go figure.

My sister taught me to read by first reading Nancy Drew mysteries to me... for her own entertainment I guess...I did find them interesting enough... but one day she had no new ones and for reasons she cannot explain, she read a book to me whose cover was an illustration of a WWI Sopwith Camel Biplane and a WWII Fokker Triplane in a chase (no guns blazing, so not obviously a dogfight in the stereotypical sense).   The story of these two "gallant knights of the air" caught my fancy and I set out to learn to read using that book and at some point discovered the vaguely parallel experiences of Tom Swift opposite Nancy Drew... why I found an adolescent boy schlepping all over the world solving problems with uber-technology fascinating while my sister found the adventures of a slightly older adolescent girl doing the same thing more locally with advanced social skills and powers of deduction, I can't exactly say... but that was our divergence. Is it nurture reinforcing nature or over-riding it? Would she have been better off if my parents had brought her Tom Swift collections from the library? Or would she have become bored and not become an avid reader?   I wasn't bored with Nancy Drew but boy did the WWI Aces and Tom Swift trump her best moments in a hurry!

Later I began to construct and draw model airplanes, becoming quite fascinated with the "rivet detail" on the WWII fighter planes... I had no significant interest in the armaments on these amazingly capable phenotype-extenders, those transportation-prostheses.   I saw airplanes (and all vehicles) as elaborate prosthesis which amplified my ability to (especially) move through space rapidly, over long distances and in unfamiliar mediums such as air, water, vacuum, even boring through the ground (which Tom Swift was THAT?).    My favorite antique book is one of "rivet patterns" from the 1850s which shows a thousand ways to join "boilerplate" into various *steamtight* vessels.   It also has a section "ingenious mechanisms for inventors and engineers". I gave it to my nephew who is studying to be a Material Science Engineer with the idea that if Eric Drexler was right, then perhaps nano-materials will be macro-technologic mimics.   Gears, levers, guides, cams, etc. Who knows, maybe even riveted boilerplate (probably not)!

This early fascination with aviation lead me to take a "pilot ground school" class taught by one of the HS coaches who owned (a share in) a plane and then during the summer between my sophomore and junior year in college I had the opportunity to buy a 1947 Luscombe 2-seat taildragger for the princely sum of $2000!   It was virtually all I had in the bank... but I already a good summer job near an airport without a tower and spent that summer honing my skills at sunrise for an hour or two. Me and a row of ratty cropdusters.   A retired cropduster and a vietnam helicopter pilot taught me the basics and stood back... in it's own way it was less dangerous than my motorcycle riding at the time with a stall speed of 45 mph... could (crash) land it anywhere and except for a few manouvres it was well built enough to withstand any aerial nonsense

All that said, I'm not that interested in a B-29... but do understand how many people (albeit mostly men?) would be for roughly the reasons Cordingly enumerates here.   I'd rather ogle the MIGs at the airport for their low-tech implementation of high-tech concepts (Vacuum Tube electronics?! a jet engine that can burn just about anything from diesel to kerosene?), and for their unfamiliar performance envelope (out of the range of birds, if not out of the range of darts and arrows). But the 1914 Ingram-Foster flyer (copy of the Curtis-Wrigth Model A biplane) at the ABQ Sunport fascinates me a great deal more... a flying machine that could be repaired (even built) by craftsmen of the time with hand tools for the most part. Amazing!

As for Tom's responses... yes, should a pacifist go to a war museum? I went to work at LANL at age 24 *as* a self-avowed pacifist... sadly I conflated peace with lack of active warfare... I actually believed in the doctrine of MAD and that "someone is going to have the big stick, it might as well be us, because we are such good people".   Fortunately I came to understand the fallacy of all that over time... but I *was* very much (otherwise) a pacifist.

> TJ wrote:
>    For the same reason 4-year-old boys will spend hours watching videos of bull dozers at work.

This has a sad note to it.   I spent hours in the dirt with that tiny fetish of a giant yellow machine rather than in front of a TV watching someone else practice the same rituals on camera.   I *did* get over my mega-engineering fetish at some point in my life, but still can feel the stir in my loins when I see some giant yellow machine shoving mountains around or plucking trees up by their roots (as they scream their tree-screams) and dropping them into grinders (that is how 599 got cleared of pinon and juniper before the scraping began) to be turned to mulch on the spot...

Whilst at a cognitive neuroscience conference a few years ago, the researchers were all abuzz about "media budgets" for children. This was not a part of their formal work nor presentations, but it seemed that all of these grandparents had come to realize that their grandchildren were spending excruciatingly inordinate amounts of time with electronic devices.   There was much discussion of the neural coding likely coevolved with long nights around the campfire and how videos and computer games trigger the same wiring.   Of course, a lot of it was grandparents disapproving of how *their* kids raised their own kids, but nevertheless, I was moved.    And in this instant wondering why I am sitting staring at this screen when I could be out moving dirt around with a big yellow (1949 Ford Dump Farm truck) or orange (1970 Kubota small tractor) moving dirt around aimlessly!

Meanwhile, enjoy the tour all!

- Steve
Hmm...

to get an appreciation of the macro and micro cultures of American militarism of the period

to marvel at the engineering accomplishments

Fifi is the last B-29 on active flying status* and that can't last forever

a fascination with warcraft

but of course that's not your point. Should pacifists avoid military museums?

Robert C
* for a price (~$600-$1600) you can book a ride.

On 8/1/14 10:00 AM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Anyone want to join me in going out to tour a B-29 tomorrow (Friday, Aug. 1) late morning after usual FRIAM roundup at St. John's? $10       See http://www.airpowersquadron.org/#!santa-fe-nm/ccjb

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:505.577.6482" target="_blank">505.577.6482(c)               <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:505.473.9646" target="_blank">505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson

slideshare.net/jtjohnson/presentations

http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merlelefkoff
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
This body part will be downloaded on demand.

Nick Thompson

Re: FRIAM Field Trip?

They flew???!!!!!

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 6:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM Field Trip?

On 8/1/14 2:55 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Are any of you old enough to remember constructing fairly realistic model warplanes that came in preperforated flat sheets of light cardboard …”fold along line A – B”, “insert Tab D in slot 3”, etc. The most relaxing thing ever.

N
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Friday, August 01, 2014 4:41 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM Field Trip?

Merle -

You ask: "I am really at a loss here. Why would ANYONE like to tour a B-29? Give me one good reason."

Interesting sociological (and gendered?) question!   And some interesting (also gendered?) answers. [TLDR for most of you]

There is definitely a strong bias in many men I know toward enjoying (wallowing in) both mega-technology and warfare. It is an interesting question as to which is the chicken and which is the egg. Are men fascinated by these things because they are indoctrinated to them early or are they fascinated with them early and simply make it more extravagant as adults? Are women who become fascinated by such things abnormal or were they simply indoctrinated differently? Do women just intrinsically "know better"?

I remember two such "toys" of my own... the first being a metal airliner about twice the size of my fist (age 2-3) with the little friction motors in the wheels so that you could spin them up and let them roll under their own power across a hard surface. Trying to make it fly, I threw it over a fence where there was a big loud dog who took exception to my trying to retrieve it.) The safety-yellow road-grader about 4 times the size of my little fist (age 3-4)... and I spent hours and hours on the side of a mound of dirt making roads with it. I don't know that I had ever actually seen a real road-grader doing such a thing but somehow it was "obvious" to me. This I was enjoying so much, I failed to pack it when we moved away and it remained on that pile of dirt until another little boy came along to make rumbly diesel sounds as it skimmed dirt and made level...

I WAS fascinated with both toys and had some idea of what they were about, that on one hand they were fetishes for "full-size" and uber-competent technology for doing "important stuff". On the other hand, I don't know what... what is the magic of such things? Neither was overtly military, but I suppose that was just luck of the draw... or maybe my parents had some inkling that the glory of war was a false path?

I don't remember if/that my sister (2 years my senior) took any interest in such things, though we *did* compete over other "toys"... with me experimenting with her "perfume" making set whilst she made her own *bad smells* with my chemistry set.   This experience made me aware of my own synesthaesia and it set her on a path to majoring in microbiology in college... go figure.

My sister taught me to read by first reading Nancy Drew mysteries to me... for her own entertainment I guess...I did find them interesting enough... but one day she had no new ones and for reasons she cannot explain, she read a book to me whose cover was an illustration of a WWI Sopwith Camel Biplane and a WWII Fokker Triplane in a chase (no guns blazing, so not obviously a dogfight in the stereotypical sense).   The story of these two "gallant knights of the air" caught my fancy and I set out to learn to read using that book and at some point discovered the vaguely parallel experiences of Tom Swift opposite Nancy Drew... why I found an adolescent boy schlepping all over the world solving problems with uber-technology fascinating while my sister found the adventures of a slightly older adolescent girl doing the same thing more locally with advanced social skills and powers of deduction, I can't exactly say... but that was our divergence. Is it nurture reinforcing nature or over-riding it? Would she have been better off if my parents had brought her Tom Swift collections from the library? Or would she have become bored and not become an avid reader?   I wasn't bored with Nancy Drew but boy did the WWI Aces and Tom Swift trump her best moments in a hurry!

Later I began to construct and draw model airplanes, becoming quite fascinated with the "rivet detail" on the WWII fighter planes... I had no significant interest in the armaments on these amazingly capable phenotype-extenders, those transportation-prostheses.   I saw airplanes (and all vehicles) as elaborate prosthesis which amplified my ability to (especially) move through space rapidly, over long distances and in unfamiliar mediums such as air, water, vacuum, even boring through the ground (which Tom Swift was THAT?).    My favorite antique book is one of "rivet patterns" from the 1850s which shows a thousand ways to join "boilerplate" into various *steamtight* vessels.   It also has a section "ingenious mechanisms for inventors and engineers". I gave it to my nephew who is studying to be a Material Science Engineer with the idea that if Eric Drexler was right, then perhaps nano-materials will be macro-technologic mimics.   Gears, levers, guides, cams, etc. Who knows, maybe even riveted boilerplate (probably not)!

This early fascination with aviation lead me to take a "pilot ground school" class taught by one of the HS coaches who owned (a share in) a plane and then during the summer between my sophomore and junior year in college I had the opportunity to buy a 1947 Luscombe 2-seat taildragger for the princely sum of $2000!   It was virtually all I had in the bank... but I already a good summer job near an airport without a tower and spent that summer honing my skills at sunrise for an hour or two. Me and a row of ratty cropdusters.   A retired cropduster and a vietnam helicopter pilot taught me the basics and stood back... in it's own way it was less dangerous than my motorcycle riding at the time with a stall speed of 45 mph... could (crash) land it anywhere and except for a few manouvres it was well built enough to withstand any aerial nonsense

All that said, I'm not that interested in a B-29... but do understand how many people (albeit mostly men?) would be for roughly the reasons Cordingly enumerates here.   I'd rather ogle the MIGs at the airport for their low-tech implementation of high-tech concepts (Vacuum Tube electronics?! a jet engine that can burn just about anything from diesel to kerosene?), and for their unfamiliar performance envelope (out of the range of birds, if not out of the range of darts and arrows). But the 1914 Ingram-Foster flyer (copy of the Curtis-Wrigth Model A biplane) at the ABQ Sunport fascinates me a great deal more... a flying machine that could be repaired (even built) by craftsmen of the time with hand tools for the most part. Amazing!

As for Tom's responses... yes, should a pacifist go to a war museum? I went to work at LANL at age 24 *as* a self-avowed pacifist... sadly I conflated peace with lack of active warfare... I actually believed in the doctrine of MAD and that "someone is going to have the big stick, it might as well be us, because we are such good people".   Fortunately I came to understand the fallacy of all that over time... but I *was* very much (otherwise) a pacifist.

> TJ wrote:
>    For the same reason 4-year-old boys will spend hours watching videos of bull dozers at work.

This has a sad note to it.   I spent hours in the dirt with that tiny fetish of a giant yellow machine rather than in front of a TV watching someone else practice the same rituals on camera.   I *did* get over my mega-engineering fetish at some point in my life, but still can feel the stir in my loins when I see some giant yellow machine shoving mountains around or plucking trees up by their roots (as they scream their tree-screams) and dropping them into grinders (that is how 599 got cleared of pinon and juniper before the scraping began) to be turned to mulch on the spot...

Whilst at a cognitive neuroscience conference a few years ago, the researchers were all abuzz about "media budgets" for children. This was not a part of their formal work nor presentations, but it seemed that all of these grandparents had come to realize that their grandchildren were spending excruciatingly inordinate amounts of time with electronic devices.   There was much discussion of the neural coding likely coevolved with long nights around the campfire and how videos and computer games trigger the same wiring.   Of course, a lot of it was grandparents disapproving of how *their* kids raised their own kids, but nevertheless, I was moved.    And in this instant wondering why I am sitting staring at this screen when I could be out moving dirt around with a big yellow (1949 Ford Dump Farm truck) or orange (1970 Kubota small tractor) moving dirt around aimlessly!

Meanwhile, enjoy the tour all!

- Steve
Hmm...
to get an appreciation of the macro and micro cultures of American militarism of the period
to marvel at the engineering accomplishments
Fifi is the last B-29 on active flying status* and that can't last forever
a fascination with warcraft
but of course that's not your point. Should pacifists avoid military museums?

Robert C
* for a price (~$600-$1600) you can book a ride.
On 8/1/14 10:00 AM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:
On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Anyone want to join me in going out to tour a B-29 tomorrow (Friday, Aug. 1) late morning after usual FRIAM roundup at St. John's? $10       See http://www.airpowersquadron.org/#!santa-fe-nm/ccjb

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
<a href="tel:505.577.6482" target="_blank">505.577.6482(c)               <a href="tel:505.473.9646" target="_blank">505.473.9646(h)
Twitter: jtjohnson
slideshare.net/jtjohnson/presentations
http://www.jtjohnson.com    [hidden email]
============================================

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
[hidden email]
mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merlelefkoff
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
This body part will be downloaded on demand.