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Could someone please remind me again why so many people seem to like Eclipse? A colleague of mine at RTI took one of my distributed C++ applications and turned it into an Appliance via VMWare (and/or) VirtualBox. All you have to do is run the appliance in a VM and you can emulate running distributed applications on a cluster, all the while sitting in front of whatever your favorite flavor of OS happens to be.
The virtual machine is Ubuntu with OpenMPI installed, so you can emulate bazillions of distributed machines on a single CPU, which is a pretty cool and painless development and debugging environment. In fact the whole "Appliance" concept and the way it was implemented is pretty cool -- wish I'd thought of it myself.
But, as part of the "Appliancification" process he put my app into Eclipse inside the VM, and as I sit here trying to relearn how to navigate around in Eclipse I find myself wondering why *anybody* would to prefer to work in that IDE straight jacket, rather than just using an editor and Makefiles, as Dog intended...
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An editor like EMACS? That way you never have to use anything else;-)
The one cool thing that Eclipse does is extract embedded system code from a JTAG port with a plugin from Greenhills. Ray Parks From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> Sent: Fri Mar 12 11:28:25 2010 Subject: [FRIAM] Different topic The virtual machine is Ubuntu with OpenMPI installed, so you can emulate bazillions of distributed machines on a single CPU, which is a pretty cool and painless development and debugging environment. In fact the whole "Appliance" concept and the way it was implemented is pretty cool -- wish I'd thought of it myself.
But, as part of the "Appliancification" process he put my app into Eclipse inside the VM, and as I sit here trying to relearn how to navigate around in Eclipse I find myself wondering why *anybody* would to prefer to work in that IDE straight jacket, rather than just using an editor and Makefiles, as Dog intended...
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Well, yes, as a matter of fact. But I didn't want to resurrect any old editor wars. I've lived inside Emacs-based development/debugging environments for a couple of decades. Scary, no?
--Doug
--
Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell
On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Parks, Raymond <[hidden email]> wrote:
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It's directly proportional to how gawd awful languages and their
management become. Basically programming environments have gotten so bad that You Need Help! I will say, however, there's an interesting new breed of editors that are halfway between "text editors" and IDEs. TextMate is absfab on the mac, and the jedit program is getting lots of love. -- Owen On Mar 12, 2010, at 7:00 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: > Well, yes, as a matter of fact. But I didn't want to resurrect any > old editor wars. I've lived inside Emacs-based development/ > debugging environments for a couple of decades. Scary, no? > > --Doug ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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Large IDEs like VisualStudio, Eclipse or NetBeans are
sometimes a bit slow. This is not surprising, since they are often written in Java. But they offer powerful functions for compiling and debugging, and they have syntax highlighting, code completion and support version control systems like SVN. I can not debug a program with Notepad, Emacs, VI or JEdit. Who wants to use VI anyway? -J. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owen Densmore" <[hidden email]> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <[hidden email]> Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 4:16 AM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Different topic > It's directly proportional to how gawd awful languages and their > management become. Basically programming environments have gotten so bad > that You Need Help! > > I will say, however, there's an interesting new breed of editors that are > halfway between "text editors" and IDEs. TextMate is absfab on the mac, > and the jedit program is getting lots of love. > > -- Owen > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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With diversity, strength.
I had an interesting conversation with Robert Holmes about his use of Vi (I think he uses the newer Vim variant). He's incorporated it into his work flow in a fairly complete way .. and this is its strength: edit, compile, look at the file system, jump back and have an install into SVN or whatever. The simplicity of a highly component-ized set of tools is unquestionably powerful. I still claim Bash and the unix commands are the most "object oriented" suite I've used. And it just gets better. Now all the imaging tools you could want (ImageMagik), ditto audio/vidio (ffmpeg), math, graphing (gnuplot) .. its pretty easy to build systems that just can't be a simple integrated gui system. A while back I started looking into what language I used most on a year's worth of work. Although Java was pretty high on the list, Bash shell scripts was on top. Crusty old unix guy, -- Owen On Mar 13, 2010, at 12:44 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote: > Large IDEs like VisualStudio, Eclipse or NetBeans are > sometimes a bit slow. This is not surprising, since they > are often written in Java. But they offer powerful > functions for compiling and debugging, and they have > syntax highlighting, code completion and support > version control systems like SVN. I can not debug a > program with Notepad, Emacs, VI or JEdit. Who > wants to use VI anyway? > > -J. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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I'm another (C O G).
Emacs + gdb + gdb-mode == the best source-level debugging combo. TotalView is ok, for a gui, pointy-clicky distributed debugging experience, but I prefer emacs + gdb for serial debugging.
--Doug
On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote: With diversity, strength. -- Doug Roberts [hidden email] [hidden email] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Jochen Fromm-4
On Mar 13, 2010, at 12:44 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> Large IDEs like VisualStudio, Eclipse or NetBeans are > sometimes a bit slow. This is not surprising, since they > are often written in Java. But they offer powerful > functions for compiling and debugging, and they have > syntax highlighting, code completion and support > version control systems like SVN. I can not debug a > program with Notepad, Emacs, VI or JEdit. Who > wants to use VI anyway? Oh, forgot to ask: how do you integrate TeX into your workflow. Is it entirely separate, or have you a way to integrate it into IDE and other tools. I ask because I've started using it for class (theoretical computer science) and am surprised how powerful it is. It's several tools can generally be used in many different ways: in bash scripts, in other editors via plugins, and so on. I'm considering using it for code documentation because most of the code I've written lately could best be described in terms of loop invariants and mathematical constraints and set membership and so on. -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
Owen -
From one crusty old unix guy to another... I'm still splitting my time between Vi/Make (technically Vim, but hardly use the advanced features) and the IDE-of-the-moment. Xcode, Eclipse, Processing are the most likely... and I find them all "very good". My biggest gripe, if I must have a gripe, is that it is hard to move between the various IDEs and the simple vi/make/gcc/ld/gdb/nm/csh of yesteryear, and certainly not between eachother. My second biggest gripe is that I would have to dedicate a lot more time to any one of them to begin to use their power. Since I spend < 1/4 my time actually doing hands on code development... I simply don't have time/focus/motivation to learn them well. This gripe is about me, not about the IDE's. These three IDE's (plus the tools that come with QT) are very (very) well done. They have a few architectural flaws and a few execution flaws, but overall, they work... they work well... they work every time... and if they don't work, it is surely because I don't understand something obvious (at least in retrospect). Odd that a couple of crusty-old-Unix guys would also be fanbois... though I didn't come into mine really until OSX when Apple met me (more than) halfway. :!make is your friend. - Steve > With diversity, strength. > > I had an interesting conversation with Robert Holmes about his use of > Vi (I think he uses the newer Vim variant). He's incorporated it into > his work flow in a fairly complete way .. and this is its strength: > edit, compile, look at the file system, jump back and have an install > into SVN or whatever. > > The simplicity of a highly component-ized set of tools is > unquestionably powerful. > > I still claim Bash and the unix commands are the most "object > oriented" suite I've used. And it just gets better. Now all the > imaging tools you could want (ImageMagik), ditto audio/vidio (ffmpeg), > math, graphing (gnuplot) .. its pretty easy to build systems that just > can't be a simple integrated gui system. > > A while back I started looking into what language I used most on a > year's worth of work. Although Java was pretty high on the list, Bash > shell scripts was on top. > > Crusty old unix guy, > -- Owen > > > On Mar 13, 2010, at 12:44 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote: > >> Large IDEs like VisualStudio, Eclipse or NetBeans are >> sometimes a bit slow. This is not surprising, since they >> are often written in Java. But they offer powerful >> functions for compiling and debugging, and they have >> syntax highlighting, code completion and support >> version control systems like SVN. I can not debug a >> program with Notepad, Emacs, VI or JEdit. Who >> wants to use VI anyway? >> >> -J. > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Owen Densmore
I used Eclipse intensively and daily for quite a few years, starting around 2002 if I remember correctly, until 2008 (when I retired, or as I like to think of it, took an extended personal sabbatical to Ecuador). There are a number of reasons I really liked Eclipse, at least for Java development.
Probably my favorite feature was code completion: during coding, you can type a variable name, hit <Ctl><Space>, and a menu of instance method signatures defined on the variable's declared type class pops up; as you start typing the name of the method, methods that don't match what you've typed so far are removed; hitting return causes the method name to be entered in the editor, along with tooltips for the remaining parameters that you need to enter; as you type in parameters for the method, a menu of local variables and instance variables on _this_ is presented, which you can choose from by typing the beginnings of their names, etc. Working this way, I never had to look up method names or signatures in the Javadoc. And it also adds the appropriate import statement to the top of the file. I really liked code browsing features, too. In the editor, you can right click on any variable or method name of any class and select a menu item to open the class defininition in another editor tab, with the new editor scrolled to the feature in question. Tooltips were useful: hover over any code feature (e.g. method call), and a mini-window of Javadoc pops up for that feature (i.e. the Javadoc for the method). The debugger is really nice, with the ability to set break points and watch points (breakpoints that are triggered when a condition is met, such as the value of a variable being a particular value). There are many more things I could list, but overall, I felt way more productive using an IDE than just vi + Make/Ant + shell (all of which I was fluent in). Most of these features are probably available with emacs, with the right emacs Lisp code, but in Eclipse they were way more accessible to those without emacs experience. From what little experience I had with NetBeans, it appeared that it had very similar functionality. I also had quite a bit of experience with VisualCafe and whatever IBM's product used to be called (VisualWorks? it was a Java IDE based on their Smalltalk IDE), and they both had similar functionality, which once I got used to them, also made me feel much more productive. Of course, these are all subjective feelings of productivity, so who knows how accurate they are... Incidentally, now that I no longer get paid for programming, I've started a quest to be fluent in emacs and Common Lisp, which I suspect is a sure fire way to make me unhireable and thus help keep me retired :-) ;; Gary On Mar 13, 2010, at 1:49 PM, Owen Densmore wrote: > With diversity, strength. > > I had an interesting conversation with Robert Holmes about his use of Vi (I think he uses the newer Vim variant). He's incorporated it into his work flow in a fairly complete way .. and this is its strength: edit, compile, look at the file system, jump back and have an install into SVN or whatever. > > The simplicity of a highly component-ized set of tools is unquestionably powerful. > > I still claim Bash and the unix commands are the most "object oriented" suite I've used. And it just gets better. Now all the imaging tools you could want (ImageMagik), ditto audio/vidio (ffmpeg), math, graphing (gnuplot) .. its pretty easy to build systems that just can't be a simple integrated gui system. > > A while back I started looking into what language I used most on a year's worth of work. Although Java was pretty high on the list, Bash shell scripts was on top. > > Crusty old unix guy, > -- Owen > > > On Mar 13, 2010, at 12:44 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote: > >> Large IDEs like VisualStudio, Eclipse or NetBeans are >> sometimes a bit slow. This is not surprising, since they >> are often written in Java. But they offer powerful >> functions for compiling and debugging, and they have >> syntax highlighting, code completion and support >> version control systems like SVN. I can not debug a >> program with Notepad, Emacs, VI or JEdit. Who >> wants to use VI anyway? >> >> -J. > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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When you go back to work on Monday, guys, beware the IDEs of March.
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That was bad. Very bad. I'm envious.
On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 4:13 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote: When you go back to work on Monday, guys, beware the IDEs of March. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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