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Diesel OK?

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Owen Densmore

Diesel OK?

Administrator

We're getting a new BMW station wagon and they recommend getting diesel over your basic gasoline. Better milage and more reliable engine.

I'm wondering what that's like here in the USA. In Italy it was the usual fuel but I'm wondering just how widespread diesel is here? And if there are other annoyances like only one diesel pump which can have a crowd?

-- Owen

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Steve Smith

Re: Diesel OK?

Owen -

I would generally recommend diesel but have a few caveats for you:

First the pros:

Higher MPG

higher energy density per liter of fuel
higher compression engine (more efficient)
leaner combustion at idle or under low load
better emmisions *except* particulates
Usually are coupled with a turbo (they benefit more than petrol?)

Longer engine life

design/construction intention?
better cylinder lubrication?

HIgher power/weight ratio.
Longer range (see pro: 1 above)
Come the Apocalypse you can burn Vegetable (used or pressed from myriad growing things) Oil.
Come the Apocalypse you can (also) burn motor oil drained (and highly filtered) out of the crankcase of petrol vehicles which are abandoned when they can't get more fuel.

I have only owned diesel tractors and full size trucks but most of the above probably still applies

The cons:

Diesel is a bit messier/smellier (not a big deal with truck or tractor)
Diesel fuel is more expensive than Petrol at the pump, that didn't used to be the case, I think it is based on demand-side economics since I think yield per barrel is higher and cost of refinement lower.
Diesel pumps are very slightly less available... I occasionally pull in to a station without it or find only one bay with diesel... Pricing seems to be more consistent. The ubiquitous use in OTR trucks says you will never be far from a diesel pump.
Diesel maintenance and repair is higher than petrol.

Air filters are more frequently changed (or cleaned)
Fuel filters are more frequently changed.
Oil volumes (my 5.9L Diesel engine uses 10 quarts) are greater, etc... but all this factors out nicely when you consider Pro:2
Engine Complexity

Turbo adds complexity
lack of ignition system reduces complexity (a pro, not a con)
Older diesels were mechanical injection, eliminating most electronics (not relevant to you).

Cold Starting demands more (usually dual) batteries, leading to one more point of failure and/or expense... a block heater with a battery trickle charge to plug into if you are planning to leave early on a cold morning is a good idea.

I seem to remember that Bruce and Ruth bought a diesel Jeep SUV and traded it in within the year because they were having maintenance problems associated with not driving it at highway speeds very often. I don't know about this really since heavy equipment has an even sillier duty cycle than their commute nature did. Probably a design issue that *might not* be one for the vehicles you are considering.

I get the impression that most passenger diesels shadow their heavy equipment and truck parts with higher mpg, longer lifespans, but higher maintenance costs... but not in the same extreme. I know of VW Golf TDI owners who get as good of MPG as my tiny 2 seater Honda Insight Hybrid (~50).

The Germans (BMW, Mercedes, VW) have a lot of experience with Diesels.

They all seem to have scandals around cheating on emissions testing (not just VW).

My sensibilities would recommend a diesel-electric plug-in hybrid since you probably have the cash to invest and trust it to pay back (mostly) in operating cost and good karma. I don't think there are any of these outside of the concept showrooms yet though. Almost surely not a BMW Wagon...

- Steve

On 3/29/18 4:13 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:

We're getting a new BMW station wagon and they recommend getting diesel over your basic gasoline. Better milage and more reliable engine.

I'm wondering what that's like here in the USA. In Italy it was the usual fuel but I'm wondering just how widespread diesel is here? And if there are other annoyances like only one diesel pump which can have a crowd?

-- Owen
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

David Eric Smith

Re: Diesel OK?

Steve, hi,

Two quick questions since this brings back things I was curious about as a child:

Higher MPG

higher energy density per liter of fuel

higher compression engine (more efficient)

leaner combustion at idle or under low load

I seem to remember this as being associated with higher nitrogen oxide emissions than richer-burning. Has that long since been fixed?

better emmisions *except* particulates

Usually are coupled with a turbo (they benefit more than petrol?)

I had assumed that this was because petrol engines continue to be spark ignited, not only for manifold injection but even for direct cylinder injection. The flash point of a petrol-air mixture limited the compression ratio you could boost to somewhere below 8:1 (mist of memory), whereas since Diesels (I thought) were timed by when the injection is done, you could compress them as high as you had mechanical tolerance for, continuing to gain efficiency as burn temperatures were increased.

Are those ways of thinking even applicable to the engineering standards today? It’s now been (?) 40 years since these cryptic memories were formed.

Best,

Eric

Steve Smith

Re: Diesel OK?

On 3/29/18 9:45 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

Steve, hi,

Two quick questions since this brings back things I was curious about as a child:

Higher MPG

higher energy density per liter of fuel

higher compression engine (more efficient)

leaner combustion at idle or under low load

I seem to remember this as being associated with higher nitrogen oxide emissions than richer-burning. Has that long since been fixed?

I believe that NO emissions are associated with the lean burn of Petrol... I'm not sure why Diesel is less apt to that... perhaps the longer chain hydrocarbons, the higher compressions (a different pointin the pressure/volume/temp space?) or the more "natural" or complete combustion conditions without a spark?

better emmisions *except* particulates

Usually are coupled with a turbo (they benefit more than petrol?)

I had assumed that this was because petrol engines continue to be spark ignited, not only for manifold injection but even for direct cylinder injection. The flash point of a petrol-air mixture limited the compression ratio you could boost to somewhere below 8:1 (mist of memory), whereas since Diesels (I thought) were timed by when the injection is done, you could compress them as high as you had mechanical tolerance for, continuing to gain efficiency as burn temperatures were increased.

Turbo (or Super) charging increases *manifold* pressures, therefore the compression *ratio* between intake/exhaust doesn't increase, just the density of air/fuel charge. I seem to remember Petrol engines in the 10:1 ratio, but those definitely required high octane fuel to avoid pre-ignition.

Are those ways of thinking even applicable to the engineering standards today? It’s now been (?) 40 years since these cryptic memories were formed.

I think it all applies, but surely there are myriad episystems designed (not unlike bruce's urea "scrubber" in the exhaust) which may move these around a little. Marcos Lopez (only on the WedTech list?) seems to be much more up on modern auto engine design/processes.

- Steve

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Steve Smith

Re: Diesel OK?

I just read up a little on Selective Catalytic Reduction which seems to
characterize Bruce's Urea-injection system.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction

Which is similar but different to Air Injection:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection

both in various combinations with two-way and three-way catalytic
converters:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter

I remember in the late 70s, early 80s when we imagined that an ICE
engine that could efficiently convert atmospheric oxygen and the
hydrocarbons of fossil fuels into pure CO2 and H20 would solve any and
all "pollution" problems.   Folks like Bill McKibbin were already trying
to alert us to Greenhouse Gas problems, but I know *I* wasn't listening
past my TechnoPhilic hearing aids.

As for Ed's apocryphal "peeing in the gas tank", urine being primarily
H20... it seems highly unlikely that the <2% additive of Urea or Uric
Acid would be any benefit in emissions, though there have been systems
that injected water into the air-fuel charge which I believe (under very
limited conditions) increased power/efficiency by small margins, but I
think that was a result of cooling the incoming mixture effectively
increasing the difference between input/output temps resulting in
similar effects of increasing compression ration?

- Steve

> I seem to remember this as being associated with higher nitrogen oxide
emissions than richer-burning. Has that long since been fixed?
> I believe that NO emissions are associated with the lean burn of
> Petrol... I'm not sure why Diesel is less apt to that... perhaps the
> longer chain hydrocarbons, the higher compressions (a different
> pointin the pressure/volume/temp space?) or the more "natural" or
> complete combustion conditions without a spark?

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Diesel OK?

My petrol car has a 12.2 to 1 compression ratio and sparkplugs.

----
Frank Wimberly

www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 9:53 AM Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just read up a little on Selective Catalytic Reduction which seems to
characterize Bruce's Urea-injection system.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction

Which is similar but different to Air Injection:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection

both in various combinations with two-way and three-way catalytic
converters:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter

I remember in the late 70s, early 80s when we imagined that an ICE
engine that could efficiently convert atmospheric oxygen and the
hydrocarbons of fossil fuels into pure CO2 and H20 would solve any and
all "pollution" problems.   Folks like Bill McKibbin were already trying
to alert us to Greenhouse Gas problems, but I know *I* wasn't listening
past my TechnoPhilic hearing aids.

As for Ed's apocryphal "peeing in the gas tank", urine being primarily
H20... it seems highly unlikely that the <2% additive of Urea or Uric
Acid would be any benefit in emissions, though there have been systems
that injected water into the air-fuel charge which I believe (under very
limited conditions) increased power/efficiency by small margins, but I
think that was a result of cooling the incoming mixture effectively
increasing the difference between input/output temps resulting in
similar effects of increasing compression ration?

- Steve

> I seem to remember this as being associated with higher nitrogen oxide
emissions than richer-burning. Has that long since been fixed?
> I believe that NO emissions are associated with the lean burn of
> Petrol... I'm not sure why Diesel is less apt to that... perhaps the
> longer chain hydrocarbons, the higher compressions (a different
> pointin the pressure/volume/temp space?) or the more "natural" or
> complete combustion conditions without a spark?

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

David Eric Smith

Re: Diesel OK?

Thank you Frank and Steve, both,

> On Mar 31, 2018, at 3:33 AM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My petrol car has a 12.2 to 1 compression ratio and sparkplugs.

Boy, I was way off. Thank you.

Eric

>
> ----
> Frank Wimberly
>
> www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 9:53 AM Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I just read up a little on Selective Catalytic Reduction which seems to
> characterize Bruce's Urea-injection system.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction
>
> Which is similar but different to Air Injection:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection
>
> both in various combinations with two-way and three-way catalytic
> converters:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter
>
>
> I remember in the late 70s, early 80s when we imagined that an ICE
> engine that could efficiently convert atmospheric oxygen and the
> hydrocarbons of fossil fuels into pure CO2 and H20 would solve any and
> all "pollution" problems. Folks like Bill McKibbin were already trying
> to alert us to Greenhouse Gas problems, but I know *I* wasn't listening
> past my TechnoPhilic hearing aids.
>
> As for Ed's apocryphal "peeing in the gas tank", urine being primarily
> H20... it seems highly unlikely that the <2% additive of Urea or Uric
> Acid would be any benefit in emissions, though there have been systems
> that injected water into the air-fuel charge which I believe (under very
> limited conditions) increased power/efficiency by small margins, but I
> think that was a result of cooling the incoming mixture effectively
> increasing the difference between input/output temps resulting in
> similar effects of increasing compression ration?
>
>
> - Steve
>
> > I seem to remember this as being associated with higher nitrogen oxide
> emissions than richer-burning. Has that long since been fixed?
> > I believe that NO emissions are associated with the lean burn of
> > Petrol... I'm not sure why Diesel is less apt to that... perhaps the
> > longer chain hydrocarbons, the higher compressions (a different
> > pointin the pressure/volume/temp space?) or the more "natural" or
> > complete combustion conditions without a spark?
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Owen Densmore

Re: Diesel OK?

Administrator

Wait! Your sports car (Porsche) would have a high compression ratio, right??

My bias is away from diesel at the moment, simply because it costs more and some of the benefits are no longer with us. No longer cheaper etc. But they do have more pick-up, and apparently better maintenance.

Keep the cards and letters coming tho, very useful!

-- Owen

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thank you Frank and Steve, both,

> On Mar 31, 2018, at 3:33 AM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My petrol car has a 12.2 to 1 compression ratio and sparkplugs.

Boy, I was way off. Thank you.

Eric

>
> ----
> Frank Wimberly
>
> www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone <a href="tel:%28505%29%20670-9918" value="+15056709918">(505) 670-9918
>
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 9:53 AM Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I just read up a little on Selective Catalytic Reduction which seems to
> characterize Bruce's Urea-injection system.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction
>
> Which is similar but different to Air Injection:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection
>
> both in various combinations with two-way and three-way catalytic
> converters:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter
>
>
> I remember in the late 70s, early 80s when we imagined that an ICE
> engine that could efficiently convert atmospheric oxygen and the
> hydrocarbons of fossil fuels into pure CO2 and H20 would solve any and
> all "pollution" problems. Folks like Bill McKibbin were already trying
> to alert us to Greenhouse Gas problems, but I know *I* wasn't listening
> past my TechnoPhilic hearing aids.
>
> As for Ed's apocryphal "peeing in the gas tank", urine being primarily
> H20... it seems highly unlikely that the <2% additive of Urea or Uric
> Acid would be any benefit in emissions, though there have been systems
> that injected water into the air-fuel charge which I believe (under very
> limited conditions) increased power/efficiency by small margins, but I
> think that was a result of cooling the incoming mixture effectively
> increasing the difference between input/output temps resulting in
> similar effects of increasing compression ration?
>
>
> - Steve
>
> > I seem to remember this as being associated with higher nitrogen oxide
> emissions than richer-burning. Has that long since been fixed?
> > I believe that NO emissions are associated with the lean burn of
> > Petrol... I'm not sure why Diesel is less apt to that... perhaps the
> > longer chain hydrocarbons, the higher compressions (a different
> > pointin the pressure/volume/temp space?) or the more "natural" or
> > complete combustion conditions without a spark?
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Diesel OK?

If you want acceleration, get an X3 with the six-cylinder turbo engine. At this point I think all BMWs have turbocharged engines, diesel and not.

----
Frank Wimberly

www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 5:32 PM Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Wait! Your sports car (Porsche) would have a high compression ratio, right??

My bias is away from diesel at the moment, simply because it costs more and some of the benefits are no longer with us. No longer cheaper etc. But they do have more pick-up, and apparently better maintenance.

Keep the cards and letters coming tho, very useful!

-- Owen

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thank you Frank and Steve, both,

> On Mar 31, 2018, at 3:33 AM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My petrol car has a 12.2 to 1 compression ratio and sparkplugs.

Boy, I was way off. Thank you.

Eric

>
> ----
> Frank Wimberly
>
> www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone <a href="tel:%28505%29%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">(505) 670-9918
>
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 9:53 AM Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I just read up a little on Selective Catalytic Reduction which seems to
> characterize Bruce's Urea-injection system.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction
>
> Which is similar but different to Air Injection:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection
>
> both in various combinations with two-way and three-way catalytic
> converters:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter
>
>
> I remember in the late 70s, early 80s when we imagined that an ICE
> engine that could efficiently convert atmospheric oxygen and the
> hydrocarbons of fossil fuels into pure CO2 and H20 would solve any and
> all "pollution" problems. Folks like Bill McKibbin were already trying
> to alert us to Greenhouse Gas problems, but I know *I* wasn't listening
> past my TechnoPhilic hearing aids.
>
> As for Ed's apocryphal "peeing in the gas tank", urine being primarily
> H20... it seems highly unlikely that the <2% additive of Urea or Uric
> Acid would be any benefit in emissions, though there have been systems
> that injected water into the air-fuel charge which I believe (under very
> limited conditions) increased power/efficiency by small margins, but I
> think that was a result of cooling the incoming mixture effectively
> increasing the difference between input/output temps resulting in
> similar effects of increasing compression ration?
>
>
> - Steve
>
> > I seem to remember this as being associated with higher nitrogen oxide
> emissions than richer-burning. Has that long since been fixed?
> > I believe that NO emissions are associated with the lean burn of
> > Petrol... I'm not sure why Diesel is less apt to that... perhaps the
> > longer chain hydrocarbons, the higher compressions (a different
> > pointin the pressure/volume/temp space?) or the more "natural" or
> > complete combustion conditions without a spark?
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Diesel OK?

The X3 is a nice car, but then there’s..

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/06/tesla-tech-conquers-great-small-towing-semi-trucks-wiping-windshields/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Friday, March 30, 2018 at 5:51 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Diesel OK?

If you want acceleration, get an X3 with the six-cylinder turbo engine. At this point I think all BMWs have turbocharged engines, diesel and not.

----
Frank Wimberly

www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 5:32 PM Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Wait! Your sports car (Porsche) would have a high compression ratio, right??

My bias is away from diesel at the moment, simply because it costs more and some of the benefits are no longer with us. No longer cheaper etc. But they do have more pick-up, and apparently better maintenance.

Keep the cards and letters coming tho, very useful!

-- Owen

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thank you Frank and Steve, both,

> On Mar 31, 2018, at 3:33 AM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My petrol car has a 12.2 to 1 compression ratio and sparkplugs.

Boy, I was way off. Thank you.

Eric

>
> ----
> Frank Wimberly
>
> www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone <a href="tel:%28505%29%20670-9918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918
>
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 9:53 AM Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I just read up a little on Selective Catalytic Reduction which seems to
> characterize Bruce's Urea-injection system.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction
>
> Which is similar but different to Air Injection:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection
>
> both in various combinations with two-way and three-way catalytic
> converters:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter
>
>
> I remember in the late 70s, early 80s when we imagined that an ICE
> engine that could efficiently convert atmospheric oxygen and the
> hydrocarbons of fossil fuels into pure CO2 and H20 would solve any and
> all "pollution" problems. Folks like Bill McKibbin were already trying
> to alert us to Greenhouse Gas problems, but I know *I* wasn't listening
> past my TechnoPhilic hearing aids.
>
> As for Ed's apocryphal "peeing in the gas tank", urine being primarily
> H20... it seems highly unlikely that the <2% additive of Urea or Uric
> Acid would be any benefit in emissions, though there have been systems
> that injected water into the air-fuel charge which I believe (under very
> limited conditions) increased power/efficiency by small margins, but I
> think that was a result of cooling the incoming mixture effectively
> increasing the difference between input/output temps resulting in
> similar effects of increasing compression ration?
>
>
> - Steve
>
> > I seem to remember this as being associated with higher nitrogen oxide
> emissions than richer-burning. Has that long since been fixed?
> > I believe that NO emissions are associated with the lean burn of
> > Petrol... I'm not sure why Diesel is less apt to that... perhaps the
> > longer chain hydrocarbons, the higher compressions (a different
> > pointin the pressure/volume/temp space?) or the more "natural" or
> > complete combustion conditions without a spark?
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Steve Smith

Re: Diesel OK?

If you can score this concept model off the showroom, it sounds pretty cool, if a bit gimmicky (solar panel on the roof?)
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel-hybrid3.htm

The X3 is a nice car, but then there’s..

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/06/tesla-tech-conquers-great-small-towing-semi-trucks-wiping-windshields/

From: Friam [hidden email] on behalf of Frank Wimberly [hidden email]
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Date: Friday, March 30, 2018 at 5:51 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Diesel OK?

If you want acceleration, get an X3 with the six-cylinder turbo engine. At this point I think all BMWs have turbocharged engines, diesel and not.

----
Frank Wimberly

www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 5:32 PM Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Wait! Your sports car (Porsche) would have a high compression ratio, right??

My bias is away from diesel at the moment, simply because it costs more and some of the benefits are no longer with us. No longer cheaper etc. But they do have more pick-up, and apparently better maintenance.

Keep the cards and letters coming tho, very useful!

-- Owen

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thank you Frank and Steve, both,

> On Mar 31, 2018, at 3:33 AM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My petrol car has a 12.2 to 1 compression ratio and sparkplugs.

Boy, I was way off. Thank you.

Eric

>
> ----
> Frank Wimberly
>
> www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone <a href="tel:%28505%29%20670-9918" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">(505) 670-9918
>
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 9:53 AM Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I just read up a little on Selective Catalytic Reduction which seems to
> characterize Bruce's Urea-injection system.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction
>
> Which is similar but different to Air Injection:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection
>
> both in various combinations with two-way and three-way catalytic
> converters:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter
>
>
> I remember in the late 70s, early 80s when we imagined that an ICE
> engine that could efficiently convert atmospheric oxygen and the
> hydrocarbons of fossil fuels into pure CO2 and H20 would solve any and
> all "pollution" problems. Folks like Bill McKibbin were already trying
> to alert us to Greenhouse Gas problems, but I know *I* wasn't listening
> past my TechnoPhilic hearing aids.
>
> As for Ed's apocryphal "peeing in the gas tank", urine being primarily
> H20... it seems highly unlikely that the <2% additive of Urea or Uric
> Acid would be any benefit in emissions, though there have been systems
> that injected water into the air-fuel charge which I believe (under very
> limited conditions) increased power/efficiency by small margins, but I
> think that was a result of cooling the incoming mixture effectively
> increasing the difference between input/output temps resulting in
> similar effects of increasing compression ration?
>
>
> - Steve
>
> > I seem to remember this as being associated with higher nitrogen oxide
> emissions than richer-burning. Has that long since been fixed?
> > I believe that NO emissions are associated with the lean burn of
> > Petrol... I'm not sure why Diesel is less apt to that... perhaps the
> > longer chain hydrocarbons, the higher compressions (a different
> > pointin the pressure/volume/temp space?) or the more "natural" or
> > complete combustion conditions without a spark?
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Tom Johnson

Re: Diesel OK?

Do check out Steve's link to the Tesla and the semi. But also scroll to the bottom and click on the Tesla route planning map. The situation, at least from Santa Fe to Decatur, Ill., looks much better than I anticipated.

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data

http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]
============================================

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 9:36 AM, Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

If you can score this concept model off the showroom, it sounds pretty cool, if a bit gimmicky (solar panel on the roof?)
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel-hybrid3.htm
The X3 is a nice car, but then there’s..

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/01/06/tesla-tech-conquers-great-small-towing-semi-trucks-wiping-windshields/

From: Friam [hidden email] on behalf of Frank Wimberly [hidden email]
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Date: Friday, March 30, 2018 at 5:51 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Diesel OK?

If you want acceleration, get an X3 with the six-cylinder turbo engine. At this point I think all BMWs have turbocharged engines, diesel and not.

----
Frank Wimberly

www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone <a href="tel:(505)%20670-9918" value="+15056709918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 5:32 PM Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Wait! Your sports car (Porsche) would have a high compression ratio, right??

My bias is away from diesel at the moment, simply because it costs more and some of the benefits are no longer with us. No longer cheaper etc. But they do have more pick-up, and apparently better maintenance.

Keep the cards and letters coming tho, very useful!

-- Owen

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thank you Frank and Steve, both,

> On Mar 31, 2018, at 3:33 AM, Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My petrol car has a 12.2 to 1 compression ratio and sparkplugs.

Boy, I was way off. Thank you.

Eric

>
> ----
> Frank Wimberly
>
> www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone <a href="tel:%28505%29%20670-9918" target="_blank">(505) 670-9918
>
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 9:53 AM Steven A Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I just read up a little on Selective Catalytic Reduction which seems to
> characterize Bruce's Urea-injection system.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction
>
> Which is similar but different to Air Injection:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_air_injection
>
> both in various combinations with two-way and three-way catalytic
> converters:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter
>
>
> I remember in the late 70s, early 80s when we imagined that an ICE
> engine that could efficiently convert atmospheric oxygen and the
> hydrocarbons of fossil fuels into pure CO2 and H20 would solve any and
> all "pollution" problems. Folks like Bill McKibbin were already trying
> to alert us to Greenhouse Gas problems, but I know *I* wasn't listening
> past my TechnoPhilic hearing aids.
>
> As for Ed's apocryphal "peeing in the gas tank", urine being primarily
> H20... it seems highly unlikely that the <2% additive of Urea or Uric
> Acid would be any benefit in emissions, though there have been systems
> that injected water into the air-fuel charge which I believe (under very
> limited conditions) increased power/efficiency by small margins, but I
> think that was a result of cooling the incoming mixture effectively
> increasing the difference between input/output temps resulting in
> similar effects of increasing compression ration?
>
>
> - Steve
>
> > I seem to remember this as being associated with higher nitrogen oxide
> emissions than richer-burning. Has that long since been fixed?
> > I believe that NO emissions are associated with the lean burn of
> > Petrol... I'm not sure why Diesel is less apt to that... perhaps the
> > longer chain hydrocarbons, the higher compressions (a different
> > pointin the pressure/volume/temp space?) or the more "natural" or
> > complete combustion conditions without a spark?
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove