Democracy and evolution
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Phil et al: I believe one of the key "popular" books which addresses these
issues of continuing economic expansion based on an exploitation of natural resources with no regard to the environment and the natural systems on which we all depend, is Jared Diamond's Collapse. In my mind, the economic systems that we have produced cannot continue much longer and, if not us, our children and grandchildren will face a much different, more difficult, more dangerous world. The proper use of some of our existing tools, such as communication, computers, modeling, complexity/chaos theories may help if they are properly applied and not just used to reinforce the current systems. For those of you who heard Ian's presentation on group animal movement, we might consider humanity to be more akin to locusts, who form swarms out of individual hunger and by biting their neighbors to move the group. Sigh. Something to think about anyway. Paul Paryski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20061209/ff6fddbb/attachment.html |
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I find ?little? comments like this so valuable. Is there a FRIAM archive on
line? From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of PPARYSKI at aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 8:39 PM To: friam at redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution Phil et al: I believe one of the key "popular" books which addresses these issues of continuing economic expansion based on an exploitation of natural resources with no regard to the environment and the natural systems on which we all depend, is Jared Diamond's Collapse. In my mind, the economic systems that we have produced cannot continue much longer and, if not us, our children and grandchildren will face a much different, more difficult, more dangerous world. The proper use of some of our existing tools, such as communication, computers, modeling, complexity/chaos theories may help if they are properly applied and not just used to reinforce the current systems. For those of you who heard Ian's presentation on group animal movement, we might consider humanity to be more akin to locusts, who form swarms out of individual hunger and by biting their neighbors to move the group. Sigh. Something to think about anyway. Paul Paryski -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 12/8/2006 12:53 PM -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date: 12/9/2006 3:41 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20061210/102197c5/attachment.html |
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In reply to this post by Paul Paryski
I'll second that. And add that in addition to its "popularity" and accessibility, Collapse (like Guns, Germs, & Steel before it) is meticulously well-researched and argued. Diamond is a fine scientist as well as a very good writer. Both books are recommended to anyone interested in these issues who may not have read them.
As Paul has pointed out in a previous post, Collapse actually offers concrete suggestions as to what societies can and must do to avoid this outcome. db dba | David Breecker Associates, Inc. www.BreeckerAssociates.com Abiquiu: 505-685-4891 Santa Fe: 505-690-2335 ----- Original Message ----- From: PPARYSKI at aol.com To: friam at redfish.com Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution Phil et al: I believe one of the key "popular" books which addresses these issues of continuing economic expansion based on an exploitation of natural resources with no regard to the environment and the natural systems on which we all depend, is Jared Diamond's Collapse. In my mind, the economic systems that we have produced cannot continue much longer and, if not us, our children and grandchildren will face a much different, more difficult, more dangerous world. The proper use of some of our existing tools, such as communication, computers, modeling, complexity/chaos theories may help if they are properly applied and not just used to reinforce the current systems. For those of you who heard Ian's presentation on group animal movement, we might consider humanity to be more akin to locusts, who form swarms out of individual hunger and by biting their neighbors to move the group. Sigh. Something to think about anyway. Paul Paryski ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20061210/e239d6ba/attachment.html |
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In reply to this post by doug carmichael
Douglass Carmichael wrote:
> I find ?little? comments like this so valuable. Is there a FRIAM archive > on line? http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ -Nick ---------------------------- _ _ __ _ __ (_) ___| | __/ _| | '_ \| |/ __| |/ / |_ | | | | | (__| <| _| |_| |_|_|\___|_|\_\_| Nicholas S. Frost 7 Avenida Vista Grande #325 Santa Fe, NM 87508 ---------------------------- |
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In reply to this post by David Breecker
I read Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel and I do recommend
it, but take his results with a grain of salt. I lot of things make superficial sense but could leave questions under closer scrutiny. Regards, G?nther David Breecker wrote: > I'll second that. And add that in addition to its "popularity" and accessibility, Collapse (like Guns, Germs, & Steel before it) is meticulously well-researched and argued. Diamond is a fine scientist as well as a very good writer. Both books are recommended to anyone interested in these issues who may not have read them. > > As Paul has pointed out in a previous post, Collapse actually offers concrete suggestions as to what societies can and must do to avoid this outcome. > db > > dba | David Breecker Associates, Inc. > www.BreeckerAssociates.com > Abiquiu: 505-685-4891 > Santa Fe: 505-690-2335 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: PPARYSKI at aol.com > To: friam at redfish.com > Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 9:38 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution > > > Phil et al: I believe one of the key "popular" books which addresses these issues of continuing economic expansion based on an exploitation of natural resources with no regard to the environment and the natural systems on which we all depend, is Jared Diamond's Collapse. In my mind, the economic systems that we have produced cannot continue much longer and, if not us, our children and grandchildren will face a much different, more difficult, more dangerous world. The proper use of some of our existing tools, such as communication, computers, modeling, complexity/chaos theories may help if they are properly applied and not just used to reinforce the current systems. > > For those of you who heard Ian's presentation on group animal movement, we might consider humanity to be more akin to locusts, who form swarms out of individual hunger and by biting their neighbors to move the group. Sigh. Something to think about anyway. > > Paul Paryski > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
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In reply to this post by Paul Paryski
PPARYSKI at aol.com wrote:
> we might consider humanity to be more akin to locusts, who form swarms out of individual hunger and by biting their neighbors to move the group. Humans organize in various ways, and even explicitly for survival reasons, but the multiple swarms they may count themselves as members are typically made up of a much smaller set of conductor agents, not one large fully autonomous agent population that `bites-it-out' . These conductor agents often aim to provide relief to the biting by creating things they describe with words like `peace' and `civilization'. Curiously, in this process, they have been observed to do a great deal of biting themselves. :-) |
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In reply to this post by Paul Paryski
Paul,
I detailed the true underlying dilemma over 20 years ago, but people have thought it couldn't be something so simple. Humanity's central conflict with the earth is a 'simple mistake' we make that has almost nothing to do with whether we hold good or bad values. It's just that, speaking generally, we use investment returns to multiply investment funds. That's the source of the growth imperative that turns *any* pursuit of good to an unmanageable excess, and is sufficient by itself to cause collapse at the peak of success for any system of 'good'. Growth is naturally destabilizing and any meaningful way of stabilizing it will turn its resources to something else. Why other skillful students of the subject like Diamond keep missing the obvious problem that mindlessly multiplying good will always turn it sour I can't say. I had to do quite a lot of intellectual gymnastics to see it. It's one of those things that's hard to get enough distance from, since more 'good' is by definition 'better'. You need to see how that efficiently hides the fact that multiplying good inevitably multiplies harm if you don't know where to stop. The tempting solution is to think you can learn from other people's mistakes and just avoid the circumstances that caught them off guard. You may succeed in avoiding a particular mistake someone else has made, but given exploding demands for response it's completely certain you'll get caught off guard by something you're not paying attention to, and by that, end up making *exactly* the same mistake. In a funny way, it's straining to hold things together that causes them to fall apart. As the problems multiply and you pay ever closer attention to catching them all, the task commands your resources and narrows your view, distracting you from the emergence of new kinds of problems. What you're not watching then gets quite out of hand before you've noticed it. This brings us back to the origin of this thread, the question of how some cultures evolve in a way that is responsive to change and others are not. I think it has to do with various healthy habits of thought like independent observation and looking for the merit in diverse points of view. Then a community's understanding can reflect every point of view, and it's actions become be responsive to all kinds of change. That's one way to state the 'steering principle' of democracy. The more common thing, in most endeavors, is to try to 'decide who's right' and oppose all others. That fails to inform the community because the truth is everyone is right from a different point of view and suppressing all views but one serves as blinders making the collective understanding fragmented and unresponsive. Well, it's a little 'cartoonish' but could use that to explain why man has such a long history of blindly blundering around. It's the dominant ideas that dominate, and that's what does it! :-) Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 680 Ft. Washington Ave NY NY 10040 tel: 212-795-4844 e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com explorations: www.synapse9.com <http://www.synapse9.com/> -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of PPARYSKI at aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 11:39 PM To: friam at redfish.com Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Democracy and evolution Phil et al: I believe one of the key "popular" books which addresses these issues of continuing economic expansion based on an exploitation of natural resources with no regard to the environment and the natural systems on which we all depend, is Jared Diamond's Collapse. In my mind, the economic systems that we have produced cannot continue much longer and, if not us, our children and grandchildren will face a much different, more difficult, more dangerous world. The proper use of some of our existing tools, such as communication, computers, modeling, complexity/chaos theories may help if they are properly applied and not just used to reinforce the current systems. For those of you who heard Ian's presentation on group animal movement, we might consider humanity to be more akin to locusts, who form swarms out of individual hunger and by biting their neighbors to move the group. Sigh. Something to think about anyway. Paul Paryski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20061211/648568e9/attachment.html |
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