Debategraph home
Locked
 
|
An interesting too that "might" assist some of our discussion.
http://debategraph.org/ -tj ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
Tom,
The derivation of the word "debate" is the Latin word "battere" (pound, beat, hit). The derivation of the word "dialogue" is from the Greek "dialogos." "Dia" can mean "through", and "logos" is "the word." The point here is that debate is an old form of working through problems (although still with us like a vestigial tail) and ratchets up confrontation to a win-lose dance. Dialogue seeks to open space for creative, non-bifurcated thinking, that leads to better outcomes on contentious issues. I'd hate to see debate as a process reinforced on the Internet. Merle Tom Johnson wrote: > An interesting too that "might" assist some of our discussion. > > http://debategraph.org/ > > -tj > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
Thank you Merle.
Your point about the old form of problem-solving, usually predicated on a win-lose assumption; and the new form - on a win-win - brings up something that seems important to discuss here at the Complex; identity as exhibited through attitude and action. How do we want to exchange information and ideas? We so often talk about, and often act, from new ways of doing things. 'Dialogue' is perhaps more useful, both as ultimately more viable and effective, and as an attitude we want to identify with. This issue also slides toward the metaphoric concept of emergence: a number of diverse elements from whose actions together something altogether new emerges. That's what we sure have, a number of diverse elements, like it or not. Classic 'debating', from what I have seen in various academic arenas, tends to lean toward wit and arrogance, rather than an actual conversation. Not actions together with others, actions against others. Posturing, rather than a substantive exchange of ideas. We are all about substantive idea exchange, far as I can see. I do appreciate that Tom is out there looking for solutions, though. What else you got, Tom? Tory On Jul 6, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote: > Tom, > > The derivation of the word "debate" is the Latin word > "battere" (pound, beat, hit). The derivation of the word "dialogue" > is from the Greek "dialogos." "Dia" can mean "through", and "logos" > is "the word." The point here is that debate is an old form of > working through problems (although still with us like a vestigial > tail) and ratchets up confrontation to a win-lose dance. Dialogue > seeks to open space for creative, non-bifurcated thinking, that > leads to better outcomes on contentious issues. I'd hate to see > debate as a process reinforced on the Internet. > > Merle > > > > > > > > Tom Johnson wrote: >> An interesting too that "might" assist some of our discussion. >> >> http://debategraph.org/ >> >> -tj >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
I would encourage all to drill down into the site a bit. OK, perhaps "debate" is not an appropriate name for the potential of the tool. I see it as yet another way, another Web 2.0+ tool, to introduce, link and present data in (a) a logical progression; (b) in a collaborative manner and (c) a remotely editable tool. A visual wiki, if you will.
There are others of similar sort:
On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:16 PM, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote: Thank you Merle. -- ========================================== J. T. Johnson Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA www.analyticjournalism.com 505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h) http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email] "Be Your Own Publisher" http://indiepubwest.com ========================================== ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
Allrightee!
On Jul 6, 2009, at 6:29 PM, Tom Johnson wrote: I would encourage all to drill down into the site a bit. OK, perhaps "debate" is not an appropriate name for the potential of the tool. I see it as yet another way, another Web 2.0+ tool, to introduce, link and present data in (a) a logical progression; (b) in a collaborative manner and (c) a remotely editable tool. A visual wiki, if you will. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
In reply to this post by Tom Johnson
Merle and Victoria,
On the strength of your comments, I have exiled the word "debate" from my vocabulary and wont use it again. I have loved the concept of "dialectic" for some time, meaning an transformative interaction in which the two positions come to form something unanticpated by either. That's why tennis matches and chess games are so wonderful. The players may be hoping for a quick win, but we the spectators are spellbound by what they produce together. But "to dialect" is a crummy verb, so I am for dialogue, all the way. Thanks to you both, N Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University ([hidden email]) http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > [Original Message] > From: Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Date: 7/6/2009 6:16:43 PM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Debategraph home > > Thank you Merle. > Your point about the old form of problem-solving, usually predicated > on a win-lose assumption; and the new form - on a win-win - brings up > something that seems important to discuss here at the Complex; > identity as exhibited through attitude and action. > How do we want to exchange information and ideas? > We so often talk about, and often act, from new ways of doing things. > 'Dialogue' is perhaps more useful, both as ultimately more viable > and effective, and as an attitude we want to identify with. > This issue also slides toward the metaphoric concept of emergence: a > number of diverse elements from whose actions together something > altogether new emerges. That's what we sure have, a number of diverse > elements, like it or not. Classic 'debating', from what I have seen > in various academic arenas, tends to lean toward wit and arrogance, > rather than an actual conversation. Not actions together with others, > actions against others. Posturing, rather than a substantive exchange > of ideas. > We are all about substantive idea exchange, far as I can see. > > I do appreciate that Tom is out there looking for solutions, though. > What else you got, Tom? > > Tory > > On Jul 6, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote: > > > Tom, > > > > The derivation of the word "debate" is the Latin word > > "battere" (pound, beat, hit). The derivation of the word "dialogue" > > is from the Greek "dialogos." "Dia" can mean "through", and "logos" > > is "the word." The point here is that debate is an old form of > > working through problems (although still with us like a vestigial > > tail) and ratchets up confrontation to a win-lose dance. Dialogue > > seeks to open space for creative, non-bifurcated thinking, that > > leads to better outcomes on contentious issues. I'd hate to see > > debate as a process reinforced on the Internet. > > > > Merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom Johnson wrote: > >> An interesting too that "might" assist some of our discussion. > >> > >> http://debategraph.org/ > >> > >> -tj > >> > >> > >> > >> ============================================================ > >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
In reply to this post by Tom Johnson
Thanks, Tom, for your persistance on the thread. We probably should have done the "was...is now" thing.
I will check these sites.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University ([hidden email])
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
In reply to this post by Tom Johnson
Tom
During the last days I have been trying to imagine what could emerge from OPEN platform without any development but containing C/C++, Java, Perl, Python, tcl, Ruby, and PHP development environment (for example) and SQL support. I suppose It couldn't be totally opened because of the “Cyber Bandits”, but exclude them and suppose that each one has the same privileges and can modify, delete and create. Would it be possible without rules? I have been wondering how it would be the behavior of the people. Crews of developers creating together, sniffers trying to rob ideas, well trained guys working alone, less trained guys working alone ... Download here Wilson's Sociobiology if you want... Of course depending on the group itself, behavior, process and result will be so different. What will prevail?. Competence?, sharing?. What are they looking for?. It would be an interesting experiment to do in different populations. Alfredo 2009/7/6 Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> I would encourage all to drill down into the site a bit. OK, perhaps "debate" is not an appropriate name for the potential of the tool. I see it as yet another way, another Web 2.0+ tool, to introduce, link and present data in (a) a logical progression; (b) in a collaborative manner and (c) a remotely editable tool. A visual wiki, if you will. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
|
|
In reply to this post by Merle Lefkoff
Merle...
Tom,<distractingly discursive diatribe> Are you trying to start a dialogue or a debate here? </distractingly discursive diatribe> Seriously... Tom, thanks for bringing this up and Tory and Merle for commenting on it (and Nick for discarding damnable debate from his discourse). Personally, I'm not a big fan of "Debate" as a process but I accept it as one of many forms of discourse that are common in the world, and I believe that such has it's place, even if it might often be over-used in our culture. I am a big fan of the general concept of Concept Mapping, Mind Mapping, etc. specifically for collaborative work. My tool of choice is CMapTools (referenced by Tom). I *am* interested in what looks like some "complementarity" between "debateGraphing" and "Concept" or "Mind" mapping. It appears to actually capture some of the essence of the difference between Debate and Dialog. I am also a big fan of Bohm's ideas... starting with his language known as "the Rheomode" and including "Bohm Dialog". I'm not sure how truly, realistically practical it actually is, but his heart was in the right place and I think he understood a lot about the "question" even if I'm not so sure about his "answer". For the science geeks here, Bohm was a serious card-carrying quantum physicist long before he started publicly discussing language and before he met and befriended Jidu Krishnamurti and got all spiritual. Some of you may know that Bohm was a "local" of sorts, spending quite a bit of time near the end of his life, at the Jemez Springs Buddhist Retreat. - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org |
«
Return to Friam
|
1 view|%1 views
| Free forum by Nabble | Edit this page |