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Well the game world drama continues- hmm only time will tell what this meens: http://biz.yahoo.com/e/150702/atvi8-k.html In case others don't know: this has been a terrible year for Activision and Blizzard (Aka WOW, Heroes of the Storm, Destininy and of course Call of Duty.) Blizzard in 6 months has seen it's top Project Managers leave to Atari, and Bioware and 3 weeks ago Blizzards COO quit to go to a unknown competitor speculated to be Red Dawn (God of Wars) Activision's COO is rumoured to be quitting for Gearbox. (Borderlands series) As I don't know how many on Wedtech are gamers or Org Psych Wonks. I've been keeping tabs on this as I'm a gamer (so what) and into webdesign- Plus i'm curious what other peoples opinions are. Might be worth waching as a live case of complexity (kind of), how does this play out can the various people involved get the company back on track and if so how.============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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What is an Org Psych Wonk? Who knows? I might be one. N Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore Well the game world drama continues- hmm only time will tell what this meens: In case others don't know: this has been a terrible year for Activision and Blizzard (Aka WOW, Heroes of the Storm, Destininy and of course Call of Duty.) Blizzard in 6 months has seen it's top Project Managers leave to Atari, and Bioware and 3 weeks ago Blizzards COO quit to go to a unknown competitor speculated to be Red Dawn (God of Wars) Activision's COO is rumoured to be quitting for Gearbox. (Borderlands series) As I don't know how many on Wedtech are gamers or Org Psych Wonks. Plus i'm curious what other peoples opinions are. Might be worth waching as a live case of complexity (kind of), how does this play out can the various people involved get the company back on track and if so how. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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Oh I am sorry Organizational Psychology- someone who's into who groups, companies etc work, comunicate.On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 8:19 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Its big in Silicon Valley: see SBODN.com.
Example: peter thiel's early studies on encouraging sheeplike behavior in humans. Think UBER with a corporate comic book explaining Carl Jung. On Friday, July 3, 2015, Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Gillian Densmore
What am I missing by not being a gamer? Seems like it is like doing exercises from a textbook but with higher production values.
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]]
On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore Well the game world drama continues- hmm only time will tell what this meens: In case others don't know: this has been a terrible year for Activision and Blizzard
(Aka WOW, Heroes of the Storm, Destininy and of course Call of Duty.) Blizzard in 6 months has seen it's top Project Managers leave to Atari, and Bioware and 3 weeks ago Blizzards COO quit to go to a unknown competitor speculated to be Red Dawn (God of Wars) Activision's COO is rumoured to be quitting for Gearbox. (Borderlands series) As I don't know how many on Wedtech are gamers or Org Psych Wonks. Plus i'm curious what other peoples opinions are. Might be worth waching as a live case of complexity (kind of), how does this play out can the various people involved get the company back on track and if so how. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Patrick Reilly
And here I thought that leaders are leaders because of their accomplishments, knowledge, skill, experience, and tenacity. Come to find out if anyone with
a nice smile and a sports blazer just “aligns work to strategic goals”, and put their employees in the right color of box, they will engage and innovate! This really can be so much easier! From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]]
On Behalf Of Patrick Reilly Its big in Silicon Valley: see SBODN.com. Example: peter thiel's early studies on encouraging sheeplike behavior in humans. Think UBER with a corporate comic book explaining Carl Jung.
Oh I am sorry Organizational Psychology- someone who's into who groups, companies etc work, comunicate. On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 8:19 PM, Nick Thompson <<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','nickthompson@earthlink.net');" target="_blank">nickthompson@...> wrote: What is an Org Psych Wonk? Who knows? I might be one. N Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:<a href="javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','friam-bounces@redfish.com');" target="_blank">friam-bounces@...]
On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore Well the game world drama continues- hmm only time will tell what this meens: In case others don't know: this has been a terrible year for Activision and Blizzard
(Aka WOW, Heroes of the Storm, Destininy and of course Call of Duty.) Blizzard in 6 months has seen it's top Project Managers leave to Atari, and Bioware and 3 weeks ago Blizzards COO quit to go to a unknown competitor speculated to be Red Dawn (God of
Wars) Activision's COO is rumoured to be quitting for Gearbox. (Borderlands series) As I don't know how many on Wedtech are gamers or Org Psych Wonks. Plus i'm curious what other peoples opinions are. Might be worth waching as a live case of complexity (kind of), how does this play out can the various people involved get the company back on track and if so how.
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
That is kind of like asking "What am I missing by not attending live music shows?". Perhaps nothing, if it turns out you would not have liked the music anyway, but perhaps you would have and it would have given you some enjoyment. I do not play computer games often enough to want to call myself a 'gamer', but I have enjoyed some visual novels (a type of more linear game, arguably), some 'open world'-type games (the opposite, a completely nonlinear game) like the surreal and disturbing Yume Nikki, and some more straightforward puzzle games and arcade clones.
It is not some secret mystical human experience, nor does it have to be some weird pop-culture cult, but just another way to spend some free time. -Arlo James Barnes On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 9:27 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Arlo writes: “It is not some secret mystical human experience, nor does it have to be some weird pop-culture cult, but just another way to spend some free time.” I suppose the distinction I’m making is between open vs. closed or leading vs. following. With so much unknown in the world, why use hours of wakefulness
to enumerate the states of a finite state machine? In what way is there anything to discover from a game? I appreciate there is a craft to making a storyline and a craft to in designing the graphics and physics engines, and of course the graphic arts in
designing the visual appearance of characters. But I appreciate the story like I’d appreciate literature or art – I am not an expert in those things, and so I am not a participant – I am merely a consumer. On the technology side, I can acknowledge that
gaming software is sometimes impressive. But why _bother_ writing it _except_ to sell it? Another way to ask the question is how is it more significant to be a gamer than, say, a reader of fiction or even a moviegoer? How is being a gamer
a Thing? Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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Dear Friammers, I am late to this conversation but it has just impinged on something I have been thinking about a LOT. I used to be sure that there was a firm distinction between productive labor and … to use the technical term … bullshit. Growing food and making automobile engines were examples of productive labor; designing this year’s fashions in automobiles and clothing, that was an example of bull shit. It truly disgusts me that the automobile industry designs a pretty good car every decade or so, and then, stops making them because, because, after all, there always must be something new. (Oh what has Subaru done the Forrester and Volvo to the Volvo Wagon? Once they comfortable boxes in which to carry people around. Now they both look like outsized running shoes with gun slits for windows. That’s the essence of bullshit. LL Beans had a pretty good winter coat a decade back; can’t get it any more. More bullshit. Now gambling and gaming in any form (e.g., investment banking) seem to me to lean pretty heavily on the side of bullshit. But I have begun to worry that, one of these days, I am going to wake up having realized in a dream that EVERYTHING is bullshit. Certainly that’s the direction that complexity thinking leads us. Or, at least, to the realization that because there is nowhere near enough productive labor to go around, most of us have to paid to do bullshit to keep us from doing real harm. Anyway, Penny and I published something about that 35 years back. Perhaps some of you like to look at it. It’s called, “A Utopian Perspective on Ecology and Development.” For all I know, you might its first readers! The authors would love to hear from you. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Arlo writes: “It is not some secret mystical human experience, nor does it have to be some weird pop-culture cult, but just another way to spend some free time.” I suppose the distinction I’m making is between open vs. closed or leading vs. following. With so much unknown in the world, why use hours of wakefulness to enumerate the states of a finite state machine? In what way is there anything to discover from a game? I appreciate there is a craft to making a storyline and a craft to in designing the graphics and physics engines, and of course the graphic arts in designing the visual appearance of characters. But I appreciate the story like I’d appreciate literature or art – I am not an expert in those things, and so I am not a participant – I am merely a consumer. On the technology side, I can acknowledge that gaming software is sometimes impressive. But why _bother_ writing it _except_ to sell it? Another way to ask the question is how is it more significant to be a gamer than, say, a reader of fiction or even a moviegoer? How is being a gamer a Thing? Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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My god, it’s full of…. BULLSHIT!
Well, making things and growing food are great, but it would be a lot less interesting world if that’s all we did. Certainly Santa Fe would be. Gary [husband of an artist] On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote: > Dear Friammers, > > > > I am late to this conversation but it has just impinged on something I have > been thinking about a LOT. I used to be sure that there was a firm > distinction between productive labor and … to use the technical term … > bullshit. Growing food and making automobile engines were examples of > productive labor; designing this year’s fashions in automobiles and > clothing, that was an example of bull shit. It truly disgusts me that the > automobile industry designs a pretty good car every decade or so, and then, > stops making them because, because, after all, there always must be > something new. (Oh what has Subaru done the Forrester and Volvo to the > Volvo Wagon? Once they comfortable boxes in which to carry people around. > Now they both look like outsized running shoes with gun slits for windows. > That’s the essence of bullshit. LL Beans had a pretty good winter coat a > decade back; can’t get it any more. More bullshit. > > > > Now gambling and gaming in any form (e.g., investment banking) seem to me to > lean pretty heavily on the side of bullshit. But I have begun to worry > that, one of these days, I am going to wake up having realized in a dream > that EVERYTHING is bullshit. Certainly that’s the direction that complexity > thinking leads us. Or, at least, to the realization that because there is > nowhere near enough productive labor to go around, most of us have to paid > to do bullshit to keep us from doing real harm. Anyway, Penny and I > published something about that 35 years back. Perhaps some of you like to > look at it. It’s called, “A Utopian Perspective on Ecology and > Development.” For all I know, you might its first readers! The authors > would love to hear from you. > > > > Nick > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels > Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 6:21 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! > > > > Arlo writes: > > > > “It is not some secret mystical human experience, nor does it have to be > some weird pop-culture cult, but just another way to spend some free time.” > > > > I suppose the distinction I’m making is between open vs. closed or leading > vs. following. With so much unknown in the world, why use hours of > wakefulness to enumerate the states of a finite state machine? In what way > is there anything to discover from a game? I appreciate there is a craft > to making a storyline and a craft to in designing the graphics and physics > engines, and of course the graphic arts in designing the visual appearance > of characters. But I appreciate the story like I’d appreciate literature > or art – I am not an expert in those things, and so I am not a participant – > I am merely a consumer. On the technology side, I can acknowledge that > gaming software is sometimes impressive. But why _bother_ writing it > _except_ to sell it? Another way to ask the question is how is it more > significant to be a gamer than, say, a reader of fiction or even a > moviegoer? How is being a gamer a Thing? > > > > Marcus > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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So's my wife! And I love her dearly! And after all, I made my living studying the behavior of crows. I enjoy bull shit and bullshitters.
But still, Gary, are you committed to the notion that there is no useful distinction to be made between bullshit and productive labor? And is there nothing queer about the idea that some people get to earn their living doing bullshit, while others have to do productive labor? Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 9:36 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! My god, it’s full of…. BULLSHIT! Well, making things and growing food are great, but it would be a lot less interesting world if that’s all we did. Certainly Santa Fe would be. Gary [husband of an artist] On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote: > Dear Friammers, > > > > I am late to this conversation but it has just impinged on something I > have been thinking about a LOT. I used to be sure that there was a > firm distinction between productive labor and … to use the technical > term … bullshit. Growing food and making automobile engines were > examples of productive labor; designing this year’s fashions in > automobiles and clothing, that was an example of bull shit. It truly > disgusts me that the automobile industry designs a pretty good car > every decade or so, and then, stops making them because, because, > after all, there always must be something new. (Oh what has Subaru > done the Forrester and Volvo to the Volvo Wagon? Once they comfortable boxes in which to carry people around. > Now they both look like outsized running shoes with gun slits for windows. > That’s the essence of bullshit. LL Beans had a pretty good winter coat a > decade back; can’t get it any more. More bullshit. > > > > Now gambling and gaming in any form (e.g., investment banking) seem to > me to lean pretty heavily on the side of bullshit. But I have begun > to worry that, one of these days, I am going to wake up having > realized in a dream that EVERYTHING is bullshit. Certainly that’s the > direction that complexity thinking leads us. Or, at least, to the > realization that because there is nowhere near enough productive labor > to go around, most of us have to paid to do bullshit to keep us from > doing real harm. Anyway, Penny and I published something about that > 35 years back. Perhaps some of you like to look at it. It’s called, “A Utopian Perspective on Ecology and > Development.” For all I know, you might its first readers! The authors > would love to hear from you. > > > > Nick > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus > Daniels > Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 6:21 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! > > > > Arlo writes: > > > > “It is not some secret mystical human experience, nor does it have to > be some weird pop-culture cult, but just another way to spend some free time.” > > > > I suppose the distinction I’m making is between open vs. closed or leading > vs. following. With so much unknown in the world, why use hours of > wakefulness to enumerate the states of a finite state machine? In what way > is there anything to discover from a game? I appreciate there is a craft > to making a storyline and a craft to in designing the graphics and > physics engines, and of course the graphic arts in designing the visual appearance > of characters. But I appreciate the story like I’d appreciate literature > or art – I am not an expert in those things, and so I am not a participant – > I am merely a consumer. On the technology side, I can acknowledge that > gaming software is sometimes impressive. But why _bother_ writing it > _except_ to sell it? Another way to ask the question is how is it more > significant to be a gamer than, say, a reader of fiction or even a > moviegoer? How is being a gamer a Thing? > > > > Marcus > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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Well, you’re in good company here :-)
Actually, I also distinguish between “the useful stuff” that we do and the less useful, but I suspect that both are necessary. We're complex creatures that become bored doing only the useful stuff, and our brains need for us to do “the fun stuff” too. Maybe it’s somehow like sleep, nothing obviously productive is occuring, but it appears to perform some necessary physiological functions (cleanup of waste products, other?) as well as leading to various conceptual leaps that don’t seem to come as much in conscious thought. Now, the *real* bullshit of constantly new stuff just to get us to buy it, I’m more dubious about that. Maybe in the same way that the arms race and SDI led us to create new useful stuff, creating endless new crap has some useful function. I don’t know. “Give us bread, but give us roses" On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 8:51 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote: > So's my wife! And I love her dearly! And after all, I made my living studying the behavior of crows. I enjoy bull shit and bullshitters. > > But still, Gary, are you committed to the notion that there is no useful distinction to be made between bullshit and productive labor? And is there nothing queer about the idea that some people get to earn their living doing bullshit, while others have to do productive labor? > > Nick > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > Clark University > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz > Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 9:36 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! > > My god, it’s full of…. BULLSHIT! > > Well, making things and growing food are great, but it would be a lot less interesting world if that’s all we did. Certainly Santa Fe would be. > > Gary [husband of an artist] > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Dear Friammers, >> >> >> >> I am late to this conversation but it has just impinged on something I >> have been thinking about a LOT. I used to be sure that there was a >> firm distinction between productive labor and … to use the technical >> term … bullshit. Growing food and making automobile engines were >> examples of productive labor; designing this year’s fashions in >> automobiles and clothing, that was an example of bull shit. It truly >> disgusts me that the automobile industry designs a pretty good car >> every decade or so, and then, stops making them because, because, >> after all, there always must be something new. (Oh what has Subaru >> done the Forrester and Volvo to the Volvo Wagon? Once they comfortable boxes in which to carry people around. >> Now they both look like outsized running shoes with gun slits for windows. >> That’s the essence of bullshit. LL Beans had a pretty good winter coat a >> decade back; can’t get it any more. More bullshit. >> >> >> >> Now gambling and gaming in any form (e.g., investment banking) seem to >> me to lean pretty heavily on the side of bullshit. But I have begun >> to worry that, one of these days, I am going to wake up having >> realized in a dream that EVERYTHING is bullshit. Certainly that’s the >> direction that complexity thinking leads us. Or, at least, to the >> realization that because there is nowhere near enough productive labor >> to go around, most of us have to paid to do bullshit to keep us from >> doing real harm. Anyway, Penny and I published something about that >> 35 years back. Perhaps some of you like to look at it. It’s called, “A Utopian Perspective on Ecology and >> Development.” For all I know, you might its first readers! The authors >> would love to hear from you. >> >> >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology >> >> Clark University >> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ >> >> >> >> From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus >> Daniels >> Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 6:21 PM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! >> >> >> >> Arlo writes: >> >> >> >> “It is not some secret mystical human experience, nor does it have to >> be some weird pop-culture cult, but just another way to spend some free time.” >> >> >> >> I suppose the distinction I’m making is between open vs. closed or leading >> vs. following. With so much unknown in the world, why use hours of >> wakefulness to enumerate the states of a finite state machine? In what way >> is there anything to discover from a game? I appreciate there is a craft >> to making a storyline and a craft to in designing the graphics and >> physics engines, and of course the graphic arts in designing the visual appearance >> of characters. But I appreciate the story like I’d appreciate literature >> or art – I am not an expert in those things, and so I am not a participant – >> I am merely a consumer. On the technology side, I can acknowledge that >> gaming software is sometimes impressive. But why _bother_ writing it >> _except_ to sell it? Another way to ask the question is how is it more >> significant to be a gamer than, say, a reader of fiction or even a >> moviegoer? How is being a gamer a Thing? >> >> >> >> Marcus >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe >> at St. John's College to unsubscribe >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Well, I guess I have to play devil's advocate to myself. Being a gamer is `valuable' like being a fast crossword puzzle solver or a sprinter. It pushes the boundary of human potential in a way that can be compared. It is hard to compete art, or even science, because the mechanisms aren't necessarily there to give it an objective score. Of course, there are lots of slow runners and average chess players and similar differences must exist in the gamer world. I suppose I'm suspicious due to all the money that gets poured into making the games. It seems like more of an entertainment platform. Maybe that's good if it widens the audience that evolves to find the elite players.
-----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 7:51 PM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! So's my wife! And I love her dearly! And after all, I made my living studying the behavior of crows. I enjoy bull shit and bullshitters. But still, Gary, are you committed to the notion that there is no useful distinction to be made between bullshit and productive labor? And is there nothing queer about the idea that some people get to earn their living doing bullshit, while others have to do productive labor? Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 9:36 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! My god, it’s full of…. BULLSHIT! Well, making things and growing food are great, but it would be a lot less interesting world if that’s all we did. Certainly Santa Fe would be. Gary [husband of an artist] On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote: > Dear Friammers, > > > > I am late to this conversation but it has just impinged on something I > have been thinking about a LOT. I used to be sure that there was a > firm distinction between productive labor and … to use the technical > term … bullshit. Growing food and making automobile engines were > examples of productive labor; designing this year’s fashions in > automobiles and clothing, that was an example of bull shit. It truly > disgusts me that the automobile industry designs a pretty good car > every decade or so, and then, stops making them because, because, > after all, there always must be something new. (Oh what has Subaru > done the Forrester and Volvo to the Volvo Wagon? Once they comfortable boxes in which to carry people around. > Now they both look like outsized running shoes with gun slits for windows. > That’s the essence of bullshit. LL Beans had a pretty good winter coat a > decade back; can’t get it any more. More bullshit. > > > > Now gambling and gaming in any form (e.g., investment banking) seem to > me to lean pretty heavily on the side of bullshit. But I have begun > to worry that, one of these days, I am going to wake up having > realized in a dream that EVERYTHING is bullshit. Certainly that’s the > direction that complexity thinking leads us. Or, at least, to the > realization that because there is nowhere near enough productive labor > to go around, most of us have to paid to do bullshit to keep us from > doing real harm. Anyway, Penny and I published something about that > 35 years back. Perhaps some of you like to look at it. It’s called, “A Utopian Perspective on Ecology and > Development.” For all I know, you might its first readers! The authors > would love to hear from you. > > > > Nick > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus > Daniels > Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 6:21 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! > > > > Arlo writes: > > > > “It is not some secret mystical human experience, nor does it have to > be some weird pop-culture cult, but just another way to spend some free time.” > > > > I suppose the distinction I’m making is between open vs. closed or leading > vs. following. With so much unknown in the world, why use hours of > wakefulness to enumerate the states of a finite state machine? In what way > is there anything to discover from a game? I appreciate there is a craft > to making a storyline and a craft to in designing the graphics and > physics engines, and of course the graphic arts in designing the visual appearance > of characters. But I appreciate the story like I’d appreciate literature > or art – I am not an expert in those things, and so I am not a participant – > I am merely a consumer. On the technology side, I can acknowledge that > gaming software is sometimes impressive. But why _bother_ writing it > _except_ to sell it? Another way to ask the question is how is it more > significant to be a gamer than, say, a reader of fiction or even a > moviegoer? How is being a gamer a Thing? > > > > Marcus > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
" are you committed to the notion that there is no useful distinction to be made between bullshit and productive labor? "
I suggest that there are at least two definitions of useful. 1) profitable and 2) useful as a tool to do other desirable things. Any creative person knows that #2 can exist independently of #1. I sometimes think entertainment products, like computer games, exist just to pacify and harness (for #1) those that don't know or have forgotten that they can invent all new things. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4
But Gary! How do you make that distinction ... the difference between the innocent useless and the harmful useless? I took a whack at that in the article I sent, but I never felt I nailed it.
Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 10:06 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! Well, you’re in good company here :-) Actually, I also distinguish between “the useful stuff” that we do and the less useful, but I suspect that both are necessary. We're complex creatures that become bored doing only the useful stuff, and our brains need for us to do “the fun stuff” too. Maybe it’s somehow like sleep, nothing obviously productive is occuring, but it appears to perform some necessary physiological functions (cleanup of waste products, other?) as well as leading to various conceptual leaps that don’t seem to come as much in conscious thought. Now, the *real* bullshit of constantly new stuff just to get us to buy it, I’m more dubious about that. Maybe in the same way that the arms race and SDI led us to create new useful stuff, creating endless new crap has some useful function. I don’t know. “Give us bread, but give us roses" On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 8:51 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote: > So's my wife! And I love her dearly! And after all, I made my living studying the behavior of crows. I enjoy bull shit and bullshitters. > > But still, Gary, are you committed to the notion that there is no useful distinction to be made between bullshit and productive labor? And is there nothing queer about the idea that some people get to earn their living doing bullshit, while others have to do productive labor? > > Nick > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gary > Schiltz > Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 9:36 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! > > My god, it’s full of…. BULLSHIT! > > Well, making things and growing food are great, but it would be a lot less interesting world if that’s all we did. Certainly Santa Fe would be. > > Gary [husband of an artist] > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Dear Friammers, >> >> >> >> I am late to this conversation but it has just impinged on something >> I have been thinking about a LOT. I used to be sure that there was a >> firm distinction between productive labor and … to use the technical >> term … bullshit. Growing food and making automobile engines were >> examples of productive labor; designing this year’s fashions in >> automobiles and clothing, that was an example of bull shit. It truly >> disgusts me that the automobile industry designs a pretty good car >> every decade or so, and then, stops making them because, because, >> after all, there always must be something new. (Oh what has Subaru >> done the Forrester and Volvo to the Volvo Wagon? Once they comfortable boxes in which to carry people around. >> Now they both look like outsized running shoes with gun slits for windows. >> That’s the essence of bullshit. LL Beans had a pretty good winter coat a >> decade back; can’t get it any more. More bullshit. >> >> >> >> Now gambling and gaming in any form (e.g., investment banking) seem >> to me to lean pretty heavily on the side of bullshit. But I have >> begun to worry that, one of these days, I am going to wake up having >> realized in a dream that EVERYTHING is bullshit. Certainly that’s >> the direction that complexity thinking leads us. Or, at least, to >> the realization that because there is nowhere near enough productive >> labor to go around, most of us have to paid to do bullshit to keep us >> from doing real harm. Anyway, Penny and I published something about >> that >> 35 years back. Perhaps some of you like to look at it. It’s called, “A Utopian Perspective on Ecology and >> Development.” For all I know, you might its first readers! The authors >> would love to hear from you. >> >> >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology >> >> Clark University >> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ >> >> >> >> From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus >> Daniels >> Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 6:21 PM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! >> >> >> >> Arlo writes: >> >> >> >> “It is not some secret mystical human experience, nor does it have to >> be some weird pop-culture cult, but just another way to spend some free time.” >> >> >> >> I suppose the distinction I’m making is between open vs. closed or leading >> vs. following. With so much unknown in the world, why use hours of >> wakefulness to enumerate the states of a finite state machine? In what way >> is there anything to discover from a game? I appreciate there is a craft >> to making a storyline and a craft to in designing the graphics and >> physics engines, and of course the graphic arts in designing the visual appearance >> of characters. But I appreciate the story like I’d appreciate literature >> or art – I am not an expert in those things, and so I am not a participant – >> I am merely a consumer. On the technology side, I can acknowledge that >> gaming software is sometimes impressive. But why _bother_ writing it >> _except_ to sell it? Another way to ask the question is how is it more >> significant to be a gamer than, say, a reader of fiction or even a >> moviegoer? How is being a gamer a Thing? >> >> >> >> Marcus >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at >> cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
Marcus,
It seems to me that in the discussion we are having, the word "entertainment" cannot go undefined. How do you tell the difference between entertainment and productive work you enjoy. That it makes a profit? N Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 10:37 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] DOH! " are you committed to the notion that there is no useful distinction to be made between bullshit and productive labor? " I suggest that there are at least two definitions of useful. 1) profitable and 2) useful as a tool to do other desirable things. Any creative person knows that #2 can exist independently of #1. I sometimes think entertainment products, like computer games, exist just to pacify and harness (for #1) those that don't know or have forgotten that they can invent all new things. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
This is a very interesting subject. I often wonder if Im doing anything useful for society and/or the universe. I think the answer is probably no, but the future is notoriously hard to predict. It seems like most useful inventions are born from silly fascinations. For instance, fire was probably once thought of as a frivolous and sometimes dangerous magic trick. Same with music, microscopes, gun powder, and quantum physics. As for video games, I wonder if they will ever become useful, for anything other than training drone pilots. I hope so. Any way, I hope you all figure out whats useful before my mid-life crisis. Cody Smith On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:09 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote: But Gary! How do you make that distinction ... the difference between the innocent useless and the harmful useless? I took a whack at that in the article I sent, but I never felt I nailed it. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Nick writes:
"It seems to me that in the discussion we are having, the word "entertainment" cannot go undefined. How do you tell the difference between entertainment and productive work you enjoy. That it makes a profit?" Suppose individuals are represented by nodes on a graph, each positioned in some high dimensional space (subjectively defined, but such that they can all be projected onto a higher dimensional space by some oracle). A definition of useful is the ability to move from one place in the space to another or to strengthen or weaken connections to others. A connection on the graph could by any sort of transformation that occurs to one node given a change in the other. One way to move is to be attached to another set of individuals that are already moving. Such a set might be, say, a business. To be attached to that set might involve participating in a class of moves relative to other nodes not in the set, say, the customers of that business. These coordinated actions would be profit motivated actions, or more generally social transactions. Similarly, there can be the opposite relationship of customer seeking a service (here entertainment). Some types of transformations ai m to create other coordinated moves, such as a fabric of connections amongst nodes representing theological constraints, criminality, governance, and so on. I'm talking about another kind of useful which is movement in a subjective space that is not constrained, or is only minimally constrained, by the edges in the graph. Movement in this space mostly does not change the configuration of the graph, but the nodes nonetheless move. Useful is not defined in terms of a particular graph transformation, but in understanding how to navigate the new dimensions without the pulling and pushing from other nodes. Given the possibility of collisions in the higher dimensional space, there's the possibility of a new social network forming there. Productive work can be defined socially, in terms of the graph transformations (one case being profit) or it can be defined privately or semi-privately by the subset of nodes that define their state in terms of dimensions not yet influenced by the various social fabrics. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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I caught the cat sitting on the bathroom counter watching the faucet drip the other day. -- rec -- On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 10:40 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: Nick writes: ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Gillian Densmore
It is fascinating seeing business evolution in action.
A lot of the AAA game companies seem to be struggling with maintaining their size and advantages compared to smaller and/or more recent players. The big organizations have evolved from their nimble and inventive past to become lumbering and risk-averse.
They grew to take advantage of economies of scale only to find that they needed to avoid changing their formula for success or risk losing the scale of their economy. There are parallels in other business domains, which now that I think about it, are all
in the entertainment business - publishing, television, and movie-making.
Ray Parks
Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer V: 505-844-4024 M: 505-238-9359 P: 505-951-6084 NIPR: [hidden email] SIPR: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder) JWICS: [hidden email] (send NIPR reminder) On Jul 3, 2015, at 7:54 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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