Curmudgeons Unite!
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On Sun, Feb 09, 2020 at 02:00:30PM +0100, Prof David West wrote:
> Russel, > > Software Engineering has indeed enabled the construction of 100MLoc+ software constructs. > > But why do we assume that such monstrosities need to be built? > I don't. But SE does allow 10Kloc+ software to be built in a workable fashion, and I do care about those. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders [hidden email] http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
My opinion is that 45 is a douchebag. That a bunch of people drank koolaid so as to not have him in a loonybin where he needbe. And that with the country going to utter cluster shitshow land, now more than ever, direct fucking vote for the sake of sanity would go a long fucking way to stopping the utter clusterfuck those motherfuckers have created. Real fucking crisis? like a 70 year old douchebag that basicly cheated and tried black mail his way to POTUS, or 500 some motherfuckers more concenred about there fucking ego rather than solving problems? that kind of Crisis? We don't need a convoludted model to show that all this bullshit comes from those assholes are only concerned about sucking the collective dick of there xenophobic supporters, and living in a twisted nestalgia and senile dementia driven form of reality than actually handling what bloody ass fucking problems come along. It's unbelievably sureal, hurtful, and scary, that those pathetic dickwads would be so driven by feer of anyone not paper white, they'd rather instigate the same conditions that drove the Red Terror, than to solve any actual problem. Flint: the water is so toxic it can burst into flames, where's the marine core of engineering to help get them that, food, housing? Estimated C02 levels vastly beyond that of the 80s when the science of greenhouse and vulcanization of environments was new. Thousands with a set of maslows beyond fucked. But sure lets pretend that it's better to have a Theocratic Fascist government than to solve issues that hurt everyone. On Sun, Feb 9, 2020 at 12:44 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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As to what gamers call voting with there wallet? well lets see: -instigate a turtle and Mar Lago of the workers. They go on strike no one there goes to work. The place won't get TLC, and stink to high heaven very quickly I'd imagine. -as they like there name on everything and that gets to his head faster than anything: put it on gold colored turd shaped basically everything including a blimp, lots of them, and especially toilet paper. -Flood the market with utter trash stocks at penny per the thousand. Might help trigger a complete collapse of the NASDAQ thus making it nigh impossible for anyone to do much anything at ridiculously inflated prices. -They hate migrants, help get as many in as possible none of them to speak english, even they actually do, and make sure they're the only ones show up to work for practically anything. -Revoke Federal assistance and stop giving resulting research as you say seems likely to start amusingly long chain reaction that'd effectively cut off funds there -Go back to claiming yourself as a personal business as Limited Liability Company and Partner, claim everything you buy as a tax write off. -metro areas to not give them funding, -doctors send them there bills as they hate nationalized health care they'll just use Washington and the ways and means comity as the persons responsible for billing. It won't take long for the soul crushingly large amount of debt to pile up. On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 4:31 PM Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by Prof David West
Please excuse the Cassandrafreude, but here we are 6 months later and
we now have the app, it is called the U.S Postal Service. Will the app manage to escape any of Dave's points of critique? It is beginning to occur to me that manifesting beside the rise of bad-faith science (bogus climate studies supporting denial, bogus pharmaceutical trials, and the like) comes a reactionary position to increasingly support inaction as the path of moral high-ground, in the face of incomplete knowledge. While some may believe this strategy to be 'correct', it leaves bad-faith actors to make the big moves while the purists hole up, finding themselves besieged and confined to ivory towers. What remains of the republic is at risk and not just at the hands of those that seek to dismantle it, but also by those too paralyzed by the righteousness of certainty to protect it. Somehow, I would have much preferred to find myself complaining in November about the failures of a first-gen voting app than whining about losing another of our critical institutions as we cower in the post-democratic apocalypse. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Jon This ... a reactionary position to increasingly support inaction in the face of incomplete knowledge as the path of moral high-groun. While some may believe this strategy to be 'correct', it leaves bad-faith actors to make the big moves while the purists hole up, finding themselves besieged and confined to ivory towers. … is one of the most important thoughts to be dangled before me in a long time. I think it relates to my fears about the Trump/Biden debates. How do you debate a person who is willing to confidently lie? A debate cannot go forward in the absence of any concept of truth. So, I think Biden should either refuse to debate or pick a fight with trump on the first whopper he tells, bury him in facts, refuse to talk about anything else until the lie is revealed, and walk calmly off the stage if that conversation be carried to its end. N Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- Please excuse the Cassandrafreude, but here we are nearly 7 months later and we now have the app, it is called the U.S Postal Service. Will the app manage to escape any of Dave's points of critique? It is beginning to occur to me that manifesting beside the rise of bad-faith science (bogus climate studies supporting denial, bogus pharmaceutical trials, and the like) comes a reactionary position to increasingly support inaction as the path of moral high-ground, in the face of incomplete knowledge. While some may believe this strategy to be 'correct', it leaves bad-faith actors to make the big moves while the purists hole up, finding themselves besieged and confined to ivory towers. What remains of the republic is at risk and not just at the hands of those that seek to dismantle it, but also by those too paralyzed by the righteousness of certainty to protect it. Somehow, I would have much preferred to find myself complaining in November about the failures of a first-gen voting app than whining about losing another of our critical institutions as we cower in the post-democratic apocalypse. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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I think there's a new trend that comes into play. Even Trump supporters are getting sick of his cuteness (hydroxychloroquine, attacking USPS, FBI and Justice) and his lies. His most committed supporters are exceptions. But the election will be decided by the center. Biden and Harris just need to embrace the truth and reasonableness. If they do Biden can hold his own in a debate with Trump and Harris will demolish Pence. Frank On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 1:08 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by jon zingale
This is both beautiful and just, Jon.
What’s the next action item, because surely you are right. Eric > On Aug 17, 2020, at 3:35 AM, jon zingale <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Please excuse the Cassandrafreude, but here we are nearly 7 months later and > we now have the app, it is called the U.S Postal Service. Will the app > manage to escape any of Dave's points of critique? It is beginning to occur > to me that manifesting beside the rise of bad-faith science (bogus climate > studies supporting denial, bogus pharmaceutical trials, and the like) comes > a reactionary position to increasingly support inaction as the path of moral > high-ground, in the face of incomplete knowledge. While some may believe > this strategy to be 'correct', it leaves bad-faith actors to make the big > moves while the purists hole up, finding themselves besieged and confined to > ivory towers. What remains of the republic is at risk and not just at the > hands of those that seek to dismantle it, but also by those too paralyzed by > the righteousness of certainty to protect it. Somehow, I would have much > preferred to find myself complaining in November about the failures of a > first-gen voting app than whining about losing another of our critical > institutions as we cower in the post-democratic apocalypse. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,vMBo1zC-0tEhuBNyZKegIgYvPPhlNy9AkwtZqZdaHs3V0Q3pinMQ4yDhC6vRURDCKb2itcSWW8UoyJhP2IVMeGX0C6VAjgymuYvTnAlRfQd9ckGtLd_1&typo=1 > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,Yp7KttHUW-i94HaRizVxC7_TBqfTkdliUYXUxoSyctkkofnYRwc2kHWGRNXFWf0ePPCZqVGVDreuBON3cYlsmh5mR00g1ltVwirhGwEpbgINhIX4A3qCvg,,&typo=1 - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by thompnickson2
I too have some fear about Trump/Biden debates, but I don't think Biden could get away with refusing to debate (I could be wrong). Regardless of how much Trump lies, Biden needs to stick to the facts and avoid stooping to Trump's level of personal attacks. That said, it wouldn't hurt to practice his incredulous face. On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 2:08 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by David Eric Smith
Eric,
Yes, what are the next actionable steps? In an upstream post I wrote: "Maybe a little flippantly and without dragging this entire post into design details, the voting app needs little more than a Facebook like-button, a Redis server, authentication, and a light-weight rest API. If the idea were to be taken seriously, such an app could be written starting now for an election in four years. It could be tested and verified by a trusted agency, like the NSA." While the preceding quote effectively gets at the idea, I will further spill e-ink in the hopes of saying something practical, but first... Given the power to do so, I might try redirecting a hundred billion dollars from next year's military budget towards collaboration between big tech and government. The acceptance criteria would include public access to the code and the platform would be subjected to a week-long national hack-a-thon, complete with outrageous prizes and awards. Since this fantasy risks getting too far out, let me reel things back a bit. Let me begin with a mission statement: Our goal is to introduce a trusted, reliable and secure digital voting option for U.S. elections. Determining a metric for success will require identifying: the scale of the project (city, state, nation)[1], collaborators with diverse skill sets and talents[2], the strengths and weaknesses of the current voting options[3], the state-of-the-art for digital application design[4]. [1] Selecting an appropriate scale for the project will be crucial to the adoption of the application. A full-blown application backed by industry and government organizations (with lobbyists in D.C.) could easily find adoption at the national level. Since the sole collaborators maybe just you and I, we may wish to start small, targeting the city level. Planning for this latter case, let's be prepared to scale if excitement around the program builds. Perhaps borrowing from or explicitly using a crowd-sourcing model would be good, extending to the state or national level manifesting as explicit *stretch goals*. Getting one or a few city contracts for our application may be just profitable enough to bootstrap the process. [2] The program will benefit greatly from the help of a diverse talent pool. We will need to design, build, test, and maintain the application. I advocate for seeking out individuals versed in building scalable critical applications and encouraging a transparent open-source development process. I foresee a role for trolls and white-hat hackers as it will be important to stress test and subject the application to *our worst*. We will need philosophers, critics, and trouble-finders all along the development process. That said, impossibility *proofs* ought to be taken with a grain of salt. We will need to lobby, campaign, and rouse excitement for the adoption of our application. It would be good to inspire competition because another group may just do it better, and ultimately this is what we want. It will be good to attract individuals that have a history with and have succeeded in: affecting policy, building grassroots movements, and selling the moon. It might be good to work with a business incubator or apply for an SBIR grant. [3] You don’t have to run faster than the bear to get away. You just have to run faster than the guy next to you. By studying the integrity of the voting systems presently in use, we can know where to set the bar for success. For instance, that the meaning of the postal service is being over-loaded in the 2020 election strikes me as a notable risk and a potential point of failure. Our application should be expected to do *just one thing*, and ideally the projects future funding will be promised independent of political influence. [4] As mentioned in the upstream posts, large scale web-based applications are here: the FBI-Apple encryption dispute, 20M concurrent Steam users, 1-click shopping, etc... Our application doesn't need to be very fancy and it would be good to avoid failing like the Iowa caucus. We don't need a *big reveal* on election night and then to impress the world as it flies along flawlessly. The opposite is needed. By the time the application is in production, it should be road-worn and rugged, the code probed and debated thoroughly on stack overflow and subreddits. This will not be the time or place for proprietary and opaque black boxes. The tech can be as impenetrable as an iPhone, as packet hungry as a Steam server and as intuitive as drunk shopping at 2 am on Amazon. The time period allowed the application should mimic mail-in voting rather than the polls. Votes could be validated slowly if need be. Perhaps, this may be one of the only reasonable applications for a block-chain protocol? Jon -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4
The current administration enjoys making *big moves* both in rhetoric
and action, all establishment without fortification. The 20th-century weiqi master, Go Seigen, is known for a remarkable strategy that may find an analog here. Go Seigen would often cede the biggest moves to his opponent while playing in such a way as to introduce *imperfections of shape* in the other's unsettled groups. Slowly, he would build thickness around the board with which to harass, overwhelm, and ultimately defeat his opponent. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by jon zingale
The only plausible answer to this is the acceptance of a satisficing rule, a tolerance for error/uncertainty. That's what allows us to trust the USPS, which is simultaneously cursed by individuals on a regular basis, yet one of the most trusted institutions in place. All this election integrity hooha centers around quantitative confidence and perfection.
But our first past the post system consistently tightens up our *intolerance* for uncertainty/error. That's the change that needs to be made first. As long as our elections are winner-takes-all and based on 50/50 thresholds, technology can't help us. Technology will simply kick the can down the road, leaving the main problem unaddressed. I.e. your billion dollar projects will largely be a waste of money, perhaps resulting in a Star Wars quality spinoff machine, but not solving the targeted objective. The first actionable steps are being taken. Ranked choice voting is steadily being adopted. It's also *not* a panacea. But at least it targets the disease, rather than the symptoms. On 8/19/20 10:06 PM, jon zingale wrote: > Eric, > > Yes, what are the next actionable steps? In an upstream post I wrote: > > "Maybe a little flippantly and without dragging this entire post into design > details, the voting app needs little more than a Facebook like-button, a > Redis > server, authentication, and a light-weight rest API. If the idea were to be > taken > seriously, such an app could be written starting now for an election in four > years. It could be tested and verified by a trusted agency, like the NSA." > > While the preceding quote effectively gets at the idea, I will further spill > e-ink in the hopes of saying something practical, but first... Given the > power > to do so, I might try redirecting a hundred billion dollars from next year's > military budget towards collaboration between big tech and government. The > acceptance criteria would include public access to the code and the platform > would be subjected to a week-long national hack-a-thon, complete with > outrageous > prizes and awards. Since this fantasy risks getting to far-out, let me reel > things > back a bit. > > Let me begin with a mission statement: Our goal is to introduce a trusted, > reliable and secure digital voting option for U.S. elections. Determining a > metric for success will require identifying: the scale of the project (city, > state, nation)[1], collaborators with diverse skill sets and talents[2], the > strengths and weaknesses of the current voting options[3], the > state-of-the-art > for digital application design[4]. > > [1] Selecting an appropriate scale for the project will be crucial to the > adoption of the application. A full-blown application backed by industry and > government organizations (with lobbyists in D.C.) could easily find adoption > at > the national level. Since the sole collaborators maybe just you and I, we > may > wish to start small, targeting the city level. Planning for this latter > case, let's > be prepared to scale if excitement around the program builds. Perhaps > borrowing > from or explicitly using a crowd-sourcing model would be good, extending to > the > state or national level manifesting as explicit *stretch goals*. Getting one > or > a few city contracts for our application may be just profitable enough to > bootstrap the process. > > [2] The program will benefit greatly from the help of a diverse talent pool. > We will need to design, build, test, and maintain the application. I > advocate > for seeking out individuals versed in building scalable critical > applications > and encouraging a transparent open-source development process. I foresee a > role > for trolls and white-hat hackers as it will be important to stress test and > subject the application to *our worst*. We will need philosophers, critics, > and > trouble-finders all along the development process. That said, impossibility > *proofs* ought to be taken with a grain of salt. We will need to lobby, > campaign, > and rouse excitement for the adoption of our application. It would be good > to > inspire competition because another group may just do it better, and > ultimately > this is what we want. It will be good to attract individuals that have a > history > with and have succeeded in: affecting policy, building grassroots movements, > and > selling the moon. It might be good to work with a business incubator or > apply for > an SBIR grant. > > [3] You don’t have to run faster than the bear to get away. You just have to > run > faster than the guy next to you. By studying the integrity of the voting > systems > presently in use, we can know where to set the bar for success. For > instance, > that the meaning of the postal service is being over-loaded in the 2020 > election > strikes me as a notable risk and a potential point of failure. Our > application > should be expected to do *just one thing*, and ideally the projects future > funding will be promised independent of political influence. > > [4] As mentioned in the upstream posts, large scale web-based applications > are > here: the FBI-Apple encryption dispute, 20M concurrent Steam users, 1-click > shopping, etc... Our application doesn't need to be very fancy and it would > be > good to avoid failing like the Iowa caucus. We don't need a *big reveal* on > election night and then to impress the world as it flies along flawlessly. > The > opposite is needed. By the time the application is in production, it should > be > road-worn and rugged, the code probed and debated thoroughly on stack > overflow > and subreddits. This will not be the time or place for proprietary and > opaque > black boxes. The tech can be as impenetrable as an iPhone, as packet hungry > as > a Steam server and as intuitive as drunk shopping at 2 am on Amazon. The > time > period allowed the application should mimic mail-in voting rather than the > polls. > Votes could be validated slowly if need be. Perhaps, this may be one of the > only > reasonable applications for a block-chain protocol? > > Jon -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Sure my tongue-was-in-cheek wrt redirecting 1/9 of the U.S military budget to
fund solving this problem, maybe it does detract from my main point. Fixing the problem of wasteful decadence is also not on the docket for me this pass through. I feel a lot can be said about what a culture burns its resources on. Hell, if we must, à la Ghostbusters, choose the form of the destroyer I choose the societal engine described in Borges' "The Lottery in Babylon"[£]. To be clear, the challenge set before me was to sketch out an alternative voting technology option. While liberating elections from a winner-takes-all modality is also something I want, it relates to a mostly orthogonal problem. Ranked-choice voting can be implemented for polling stations, phone apps, and snail-mail alike. Sooner or later the technology I am advocating for will be here, what it will be when it arrives is what I wish to direct concern toward. Witnessing an endless procession of squandered opportunity is what I find so abhorrent. If the first actionable steps are being taken, great, we now have the opportunity to take others. [£] https://web.itu.edu.tr/~inceogl4/modernism/lotteryofbabylon.pdf -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Jon,
In my balmy way, I took you entirely seriously. During the whole ACA debacle, when it looked like programming ineptitude was going to bring the whole health system down, You Wizards (and I use the word loosely ... the word "You", that is) declared that you could have designed a better system to allocate people to health insurers in a weekend. So, I thought, the Wizards are getting the jump on it, this time. They are going to get together for a weekend and design a national voting system for 2024. What a wonderful thing! They will make a s-load of a lot of money and the country will be the better for it. Perfect! I did have one worry, of course. My worry was that a voting system should not be mysterious. And since what Wizards do is always mysterious to the rest of us (we "citizens", as Owen used to say), that was definitely going to be a "roll-out" problem. Nick Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 8:54 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Curmudgeons Unite! Sure my tongue-was-in-cheek wrt redirecting 1/9 of the U.S military budget to fund solving this problem, maybe it does detract from my main point. Fixing the problem of wasteful decadence is also not on the docket for me this pass through. I feel a lot can be said about what a culture burns its resources on. Hell, if we must, à la Ghostbusters, choose the form of the destroyer I choose the societal engine described in Borges' "The Lottery in Babylon"[£]. To be clear, the challenge set before me was to sketch out an alternative voting technology option. While liberating elections from a winner-takes-all modality is also something I want, it relates to a mostly orthogonal problem. Ranked-choice voting can be implemented for polling stations, phone apps, and snail-mail alike. Sooner or later the technology I am advocating for will be here, what it will be when it arrives is what I wish to direct concern toward. Witnessing an endless procession of squandered opportunity is what I find so abhorrent. If the first actionable steps are being taken, great, we now have the opportunity to take others. [£] https://web.itu.edu.tr/~inceogl4/modernism/lotteryofbabylon.pdf -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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*My worry was that a voting system should not be mysterious*
Again, and hopefully for the last time on this post: I _do_ think this is possible and I _am_ suggesting ideas that could be used as a starting point (given that higher level wizards are prone to navel-gazing and collecting social security). The continued use of *mystery* as an impossibility proof remains infuriatingly inept. What I continue to hear from that perspective is, "Let's all commit to the impossibility of knowing and just be done with the enlightenment project already". The idea, for those that bother to read, is to have a transparent and open-source development process. That some will forever be illiterate is sad, but many many many will be capable of reading the code. We already have the app, it is the USPS, so stop with the impossibility proofs already. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by thompnickson2
Nick, THE technical solution would be to create an AI that would have access to all your voting records, everything you ever wrote or said about politics and policies, all your FRIAM correspondence, any social media you may have been tricked into using, your amazon purchasing records, all the professional societies you have belonged to, etc. etc. — and have it simply vote for you. davew On Thu, Aug 20, 2020, at 10:03 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Jon, > > In my balmy way, I took you entirely seriously. During the whole ACA > debacle, when it looked like programming ineptitude was going to bring > the whole health system down, You Wizards (and I use the word loosely > ... the word "You", that is) declared that you could have designed a > better system to allocate people to health insurers in a weekend. So, > I thought, the Wizards are getting the jump on it, this time. They are > going to get together for a weekend and design a national voting system > for 2024. What a wonderful thing! They will make a s-load of a lot of > money and the country will be the better for it. Perfect! I did have > one worry, of course. My worry was that a voting system should not be > mysterious. And since what Wizards do is always mysterious to the rest > of us (we "citizens", as Owen used to say), that was definitely going > to be a "roll-out" problem. > > Nick > > Nicholas Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > Clark University > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale > Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 8:54 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Curmudgeons Unite! > > Sure my tongue-was-in-cheek wrt redirecting 1/9 of the U.S military > budget to fund solving this problem, maybe it does detract from my main > point. Fixing the problem of wasteful decadence is also not on the > docket for me this pass through. I feel a lot can be said about what a > culture burns its resources on. Hell, if we must, à la Ghostbusters, > choose the form of the destroyer I choose the societal engine described > in Borges' "The Lottery in Babylon"[£]. > > To be clear, the challenge set before me was to sketch out an > alternative voting technology option. While liberating elections from a > winner-takes-all modality is also something I want, it relates to a > mostly orthogonal problem. Ranked-choice voting can be implemented for > polling stations, phone apps, and snail-mail alike. Sooner or later the > technology I am advocating for will be here, what it will be when it > arrives is what I wish to direct concern toward. Witnessing an endless > procession of squandered opportunity is what I find so abhorrent. If > the first actionable steps are being taken, great, we now have the > opportunity to take others. > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Agreed.
-- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by jon zingale
Down, White Fang!
I only meant that for we "citizens", a ballot has not been "counted" until It has been passed among the hands of three octogenarians in the Town Hall Of New Braintree Mass, and one has said, "one Biden" and the other has said "one Biden" and the third has written it down, all while the Town Constable slumbers in the corner. I know that horse got out of the barn years ago, but still, that's transparency where I come from. Open source, open smorsh. n Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2020 10:33 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Curmudgeons Unite! *My worry was that a voting system should not be mysterious* Again, and hopefully for the last time on this post: I _do_ think this is possible and I _am_ suggesting ideas that could be used as a starting point (given that higher level wizards are prone to navel-gazing and collecting social security). The continued use of *mystery* as an impossibility proof remains infuriatingly inept. What I continue to hear from that perspective is, "Let's all commit to the impossibility of knowing and just be done with the enlightenment project already". The idea, for those that bother to read, is to have a transparent and open-source development process. That some will forever be illiterate is sad, but many many many will be capable of reading the code. We already have the app, it is the USPS, so stop with the impossibility proofs already. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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You are helping me to understand how Republicans win elections. They hire the
data scientists and we give them tenure. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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In reply to this post by jon zingale
Jon- I would find it fascinating (if possibly/assuredly misleading)
for someone well-schooled in Go Strategy/Tactics and history to
establish a running commentary on the specific moves afoot in our
(national/global) political (socioeconomic) go-board. My last foray into Go beyond trying to learn to play casually 10
years ago was during the 1983 CA conference in Los Alamos when
there was a lot of discussion of using CA to construct
Chess/Checkers/Go playing programs. I don't remember (nor can find) any papers directly referencing the subject at that time, and when I tried to follow up on the Go aspect (in1983), I got sidetracked into Gosper's proto-Hashlife memoization CA conception... which promised to support "seeding" such game-players with middle-and end-game "gambits". I don't even know if that is the right term and bashing through GoogleSearches only leads me further astray down a multiscale foam of white-rabbit warrens. Some of the more interesting vestibules in the maze of
rabbit-warrens:
I am left wondering if some of the recent FriAM maunderings are
not relevant. First level Go strategy involves the tension
between "connection and separation" and literal vs virtual or
potential versions of both which rhymes slantly (I hear?) with the
"cohesion/coupling" discussion, as well as the "epiphenomenon"
discussion and the more background/constant consideration of
"emergence". I'm way over my TL;DR limit as usual, but I will tag on that my own throwdown in CA is a (never realized) foray into an (k-1)^2 decomposition of space (vs k-d/quad-oct-tree partitioning).. the key to the concept is to maximize redundancy and coverage of pattern space vs space-efficient decomposition. I believe it has a play in the generalization of Guerin's dual-field stuff, especially in the context of the patch-turtle duality of Netlogo. But I'm too busy wandering through the self-similar foamy white-rabbit warrens to do more than make short stepwise motion in that direction every few years. Which triggers another diversion into Glen's "diachronic" vs "episodic"... trying to understand if there is a yet-more-general model of which this distinction is a (useful but) degenerate form, explaining my (and other's) propensity for rabbit-hole-diving, and (possibly) the long-term or large-scale utility of same? mumble/ramble - Steve On 8/19/20 11:07 PM, jon zingale wrote:
The current administration enjoys making *big moves* both in rhetoric and action, all establishment without fortification. The 20th-century weiqi master, Go Seigen, is known for a remarkable strategy that may find an analog here. Go Seigen would often cede the biggest moves to his opponent while playing in such a way as to introduce *imperfections of shape* in the other's unsettled groups. Slowly, he would build thickness around the board with which to harass, overwhelm, and ultimately defeat his opponent. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Steve, Did you ever see Ed Bradley's interview of Dylan. The latter is about three years older than I am. I was writing significant code until a few years ago and I can state theorems and definitions that I learned 50+ years ago. I might even be able to prove some of the theorems but... https://youtu.be/m_wAZ02JUtM --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 11:43 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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