Conditional Association and the "natural order"
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Since Nick is always looking for libertarian bogeymen, I thought I'd raise this specter:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hans-Hermann_Hoppe I ran across him in this article on the Hoppean Snake as a right-wing meme: https://theintercept.com/2021/02/04/pinochet-far-right-hoppean-snake/ This paragraph from the RationalWiki pinged my memory of the discussion about renaming MOTH: "Hoppe fancies himself as a champion of the right of free association. Or what might more commonly be called rank discrimination and bigotry. He proposes "covenant communities," a sort of neighborhood watch on steroids." It had never crossed my mind that any thinking/feeling human would be stupid enough to take conditional association to its logical conclusion in this way. Or that anyone would fail to see that slow-rate conditional association (e.g. bad marriage tortu[r]ous divorce - cf http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/What-s-in-a-name-MOTH-to-a-Flame-tp7599300.html) is a necessary consequence of conditional association *because* real life is replete with a diversity of rates, some slow, some fast, and a diversity of Markov orders, some shallow, some deep. Triple-H may be my new, favorite example of why anarcho-capitalism is so fscked up and often tragically confused with anracho-syndicalism or anarchism, proper. I absolutely love that nickname "Triple-H". Too bad it signs for such a horrifying person. Now I need to find alternative objects, you know, for parallax. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Conditional Association and the "natural order"
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I have someone in my life who worked/lived in Chile during Pinochet's
rule, and in fact the company (big copper) he worked for was in fact exploiting in the most American style.... eventually the largest, most voracious/egregious of mining companies bought his company up and it only took about 5 years of working for them for him to become an extreme apologist for THEM. His eldest daughter who was still pre-teen when they left Chile is a huge Pinochet apologist. It is really disturbing to me. But her childhood friends were all children of the ruling class and affiliates (International ex-pats) else they would not even be in the country (or alive)... so it is obvious... but still sad/disturbing. As a long-time employee of LANL and erstwhile believer in Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD) as a (the only?) viable concept of peace in the modern (post-hiroshima/nagasaki), I have been an apologist for some pretty disturbing things myself. That (somewhat) recognized mistake of my own leads me to be a bit more Luddite than many here who I would (gently) suggest are apologists for (runaway) technological (and economic) progress. I find it fascinating what we humans are capable of transforming from "unthinkable" to "necessary" which presages designation as "a very good thing". On 2/10/21 9:01 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > Since Nick is always looking for libertarian bogeymen, I thought I'd raise this specter: > > https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hans-Hermann_Hoppe > > I ran across him in this article on the Hoppean Snake as a right-wing meme: > > https://theintercept.com/2021/02/04/pinochet-far-right-hoppean-snake/ > > This paragraph from the RationalWiki pinged my memory of the discussion about renaming MOTH: > > "Hoppe fancies himself as a champion of the right of free association. Or what might more commonly be called rank discrimination and bigotry. He proposes "covenant communities," a sort of neighborhood watch on steroids." > > It had never crossed my mind that any thinking/feeling human would be stupid enough to take conditional association to its logical conclusion in this way. Or that anyone would fail to see that slow-rate conditional association (e.g. bad marriage tortu[r]ous divorce - cf http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/What-s-in-a-name-MOTH-to-a-Flame-tp7599300.html) is a necessary consequence of conditional association *because* real life is replete with a diversity of rates, some slow, some fast, and a diversity of Markov orders, some shallow, some deep. > > Triple-H may be my new, favorite example of why anarcho-capitalism is so fscked up and often tragically confused with anracho-syndicalism or anarchism, proper. I absolutely love that nickname "Triple-H". Too bad it signs for such a horrifying person. Now I need to find alternative objects, you know, for parallax. > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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Yes. Nicely subtle addition. One of the worst insults that's ever been hurled at me was when I reconnected with a friend after a few years and, while talking about our interim evolution, he said "You're one of the most consistent people I know." Ouch. Subjectively, I change my mind several times per day, per week, per year, per decade. But apparently, when viewed from the outside, this guy at least, saw little difference. I continue to *hope* he thought it was a compliment and was telling a white lie to be nice.
On 2/10/21 9:05 AM, Steve Smith wrote: > > I find it fascinating what we humans are capable of transforming from > "unthinkable" to "necessary" which presages designation as "a very good > thing". -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Conditional Association and the "natural order"
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Glen,
Perhaps he, like me, relies on your consistent inconsistency. Is it your goal to be inconsistently inconsistent? Nick Nick Thompson [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 11:20 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Conditional Association and the "natural order" Yes. Nicely subtle addition. One of the worst insults that's ever been hurled at me was when I reconnected with a friend after a few years and, while talking about our interim evolution, he said "You're one of the most consistent people I know." Ouch. Subjectively, I change my mind several times per day, per week, per year, per decade. But apparently, when viewed from the outside, this guy at least, saw little difference. I continue to *hope* he thought it was a compliment and was telling a white lie to be nice. On 2/10/21 9:05 AM, Steve Smith wrote: > > I find it fascinating what we humans are capable of transforming from > "unthinkable" to "necessary" which presages designation as "a very > good thing". -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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As badly as I might do so, it's my goal to fit to the best evidence available, to be well-coupled to the environment ... at least the parts of the environment I'm capable of seeing and responding to. So, if I am the same while working at a dot-com in CA as I am working for myself in WA, then *something* must be wrong. Of course, EricC might make the argument that dot-com life in CA is overwhelmingly similar to self-employment in WA (at least compared to, say, goat herding in Turkey or potato farming on Mars). But I don't buy it. If you behave the same way when, say, drinking 40s with your homies, as you do when, say, interviewing for a job at McKinsey & Co, then you're probably not doing it right.
On 2/10/21 10:40 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Perhaps he, like me, relies on your consistent inconsistency. > > Is it your goal to be inconsistently inconsistent? -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Conditional Association and the "natural order"
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I guess my point of view is a LOA (Level of Analysis) thing or at least a POV (Point of View) thing.
However you characterize your self as consistent or inconsistent, I can find a point of view from which you are the opposite. N Nick Thompson [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2021 12:48 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Conditional Association and the "natural order" As badly as I might do so, it's my goal to fit to the best evidence available, to be well-coupled to the environment ... at least the parts of the environment I'm capable of seeing and responding to. So, if I am the same while working at a dot-com in CA as I am working for myself in WA, then *something* must be wrong. Of course, EricC might make the argument that dot-com life in CA is overwhelmingly similar to self-employment in WA (at least compared to, say, goat herding in Turkey or potato farming on Mars). But I don't buy it. If you behave the same way when, say, drinking 40s with your homies, as you do when, say, interviewing for a job at McKinsey & Co, then you're probably not doing it right. On 2/10/21 10:40 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Perhaps he, like me, relies on your consistent inconsistency. > > Is it your goal to be inconsistently inconsistent? -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
Re: Conditional Association and the "natural order"
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In reply to this post by gepr
Emerson: " A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."
Davew: "all consistencies are foolish. TRUTH is consistency. TRUTH is the hobgoblin of small minds." davew On Wed, Feb 10, 2021, at 10:20 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > Yes. Nicely subtle addition. One of the worst insults that's ever been > hurled at me was when I reconnected with a friend after a few years > and, while talking about our interim evolution, he said "You're one of > the most consistent people I know." Ouch. Subjectively, I change my > mind several times per day, per week, per year, per decade. But > apparently, when viewed from the outside, this guy at least, saw little > difference. I continue to *hope* he thought it was a compliment and was > telling a white lie to be nice. > > On 2/10/21 9:05 AM, Steve Smith wrote: > > > > I find it fascinating what we humans are capable of transforming from > > "unthinkable" to "necessary" which presages designation as "a very good > > thing". > > -- > ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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Yes, I agree. But as with all aphorisms, yours is also vague. I like EricS' allusion to reductionism in "the whole meaning of something should be carried in the form of its expressions". This approximates the "monistic" sense of Truth often targeted by rationalists, idealists, and (naive) realists. But you've often argued for a subjective science (for lack of a better term) ... and I think that's worth calling "truth", too. Here, Emerson's "foolish" qualifier is important. Is there a stability of the mind? A repeatability/reproducibility to particular methods? Can you, by psychedelic drugs, meditation, exercise, etc. *move* that stable locus ... from, say, debilitating neuroticism to calm enlightenment? Etc.
And if that's the case, then we can call that stable locus Truth. And then truth is plural. Or we can call that locus something like a point in a space (neuroticism to enlightenment) and we could call the *space* "truth". And if that's the case, then we can talk about intra-personal truth versus inter-personal truth. To what extent does one's truth-space change as they age? To what extent do identical twins' truth-spaces intersect? Etc. But of course we could simply jump to where you already are and say that the concept of truth is so vague and ambiguous as to be useless. We have plenty of other domain-specific words for concepts like "intrapersonal truth-space", that it's a bit silly to use them. On 2/11/21 7:12 AM, Prof David West wrote: > Emerson: " A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds." > > Davew: "all consistencies are foolish. TRUTH is consistency. TRUTH is the hobgoblin of small minds." -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Conditional Association and the "natural order"
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I can't find the clip now, but I'm reminded of scene in a drama (Queen of the South?) where a journalist is confronted by a bad guy who proposes "Let's find out whether the pen is indeed mightier than the sword." He stabs the journalist in the stomach and he dies. That kind of sets my threshold of tolerance for open-ended bullshit about the impossibility of truth. Because that guy was dead.
-----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2021 9:28 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Conditional Association and the "natural order" Yes, I agree. But as with all aphorisms, yours is also vague. I like EricS' allusion to reductionism in "the whole meaning of something should be carried in the form of its expressions". This approximates the "monistic" sense of Truth often targeted by rationalists, idealists, and (naive) realists. But you've often argued for a subjective science (for lack of a better term) ... and I think that's worth calling "truth", too. Here, Emerson's "foolish" qualifier is important. Is there a stability of the mind? A repeatability/reproducibility to particular methods? Can you, by psychedelic drugs, meditation, exercise, etc. *move* that stable locus ... from, say, debilitating neuroticism to calm enlightenment? Etc. And if that's the case, then we can call that stable locus Truth. And then truth is plural. Or we can call that locus something like a point in a space (neuroticism to enlightenment) and we could call the *space* "truth". And if that's the case, then we can talk about intra-personal truth versus inter-personal truth. To what extent does one's truth-space change as they age? To what extent do identical twins' truth-spaces intersect? Etc. But of course we could simply jump to where you already are and say that the concept of truth is so vague and ambiguous as to be useless. We have plenty of other domain-specific words for concepts like "intrapersonal truth-space", that it's a bit silly to use them. On 2/11/21 7:12 AM, Prof David West wrote: > Emerson: " A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds." > > Davew: "all consistencies are foolish. TRUTH is consistency. TRUTH is the hobgoblin of small minds." -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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Ha! Yes, pragmatically, methodologically, in almost every way that matters in the world, there is such a thing as a ground truth and only fools mealy mouth their way around it. When I was a kid, waiting at the bus stop, a fellow bus rider said "I don't believe in gravity." We were, like, 9 years old at the time. Having been continuously indoctrinated in Catholic concepts of the universe, I knew immediately what she meant, because ... you know, I didn't believe in God. The point is that gravity and God are similar things to a 9 year old (that's not exceptionally advanced). They're just names for non-evident, far-flung, conceptual things. Denying that such conversations are relevant and important seems a bit short-sighted.
On 2/11/21 10:34 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > I can't find the clip now, but I'm reminded of scene in a drama (Queen of the South?) where a journalist is confronted by a bad guy who proposes "Let's find out whether the pen is indeed mightier than the sword." He stabs the journalist in the stomach and he dies. That kind of sets my threshold of tolerance for open-ended bullshit about the impossibility of truth. Because that guy was dead. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Conditional Association and the "natural order"
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
There's an article in the NYTimes today about the issues adaptive fashion companies have with Facebook automated ad rejections. The model in the wheelchair was showing a lot of skin as she demonstrated how the side closure underpants worked, but it shouldn't take three weeks of emailing back and forth to get the ad approved, and not the same thing everytime a new ad was submitted. It made me think that the primary bias in AI systems is that there is _an_ answer that is correct, and with sufficient input data and compute resources, the loss minimization will converge to that correct answer. That in turn reminds me of these discussions about the Truth versus the many truths under different contingencies, in different contexts, from different points of view, according to one or another person's lived experience, and so on. I'm thinking to file these issues all under #AttentionEcologyDisorder. When the varieties of reality threaten to exceed one's capacity, one simplifies by picking one variety and discarding the rest. And then making an argument for why the variety one picked deserves to be privileged over all the others. This also reminds me of Marcus' accusation that I find FRIAM boring. Au contraire, it's much too interesting and it takes too much time to deal with it. -- rec -- On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 1:34 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: I can't find the clip now, but I'm reminded of scene in a drama (Queen of the South?) where a journalist is confronted by a bad guy who proposes "Let's find out whether the pen is indeed mightier than the sword." He stabs the journalist in the stomach and he dies. That kind of sets my threshold of tolerance for open-ended bullshit about the impossibility of truth. Because that guy was dead. - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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