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On Mon, Apr 08, 2013 at 12:49:47PM -0600, Steve Smith wrote:
> Doug! > > > >Just curious why you Mac guys are buying backup systems, when > >there is a perfectly good way to use rsync. Here's my nightly > >backup script, which currently sends my nightly incrementals to a > >cheap 3TB USB3 external drive: > > I occasionally use TM (mostly for my wife) to simply go find an > event where she deleted or overwrote something she needed. Usually > I can find in e-mail the date/time of the triggering event, usually > several days to a few months previous, and then go bumble around in > the Time Machine until I *see* the (usually a flurry of) changes and > forensically can figure out exactly *what* changed and *guess* why, > etc. A point and click later and we are back to the earlier state, > and if I'm wrong, another point and click and we are at another > state, and .... rsync doesn't solve this particular problem. If I need to do that, I use a version control system - eg subversion - if my wife needs to do that, she is SOL :). I'm not going to try to teach her subversion. Fortunately, that has never happened. I have used rsync for about 15 years now, before that using QIC (150MB) and Exabyte tape storage (4GB). This gives "single spindle" protection. I have never lost data (well nothing significant, anyway), even though I have had to restore from backups maybe 5-10 times in that period due to hard disk failures. Time Machine would be nice (provided I could develop trust of it). Unfortunately, I'm Linux, not Mac, so its not an option :). If someone implements a transparent copy on write versioning file system, I'd probably install it on my home partition, just in case I even need to solve a problem like the above. Subversion is too expensive for /home. Alas, even though some experimental versions exist, none have made it to prime time. Someone was asking how to do encrypted cloud offsite backups. You can use gpg for this. In practice, though, I don't see how you could do incremental backups with gpg in the pipeline, so probably you would need to maintain another local disk for encrypted data, and then mirror the encrypted data offsite with rsync. Of course, that assume your cloud provider gives you ssh access to allow the use of rsync. Are there any such enlightened services around? -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics [hidden email] University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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As Russell and others have pointed out, TM provides a hybrid of version control and backup. I wonder if it would be feasible to use SVN to manage an entire operating system? You could in essence do hourly commits of '/' with periodic pruning, but I'm sure it wouldn't be as simple as that. Would obviously need to exclude some things like device files. The performance would likely stink big time, too.
Gary On Apr 8, 2013, at 6:48 PM, Russell Standish <[hidden email]> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 08, 2013 at 12:49:47PM -0600, Steve Smith wrote: >> Doug! >> >> >>> Just curious why you Mac guys are buying backup systems, when >>> there is a perfectly good way to use rsync. Here's my nightly >>> backup script, which currently sends my nightly incrementals to a >>> cheap 3TB USB3 external drive: >> >> I occasionally use TM (mostly for my wife) to simply go find an >> event where she deleted or overwrote something she needed. Usually >> I can find in e-mail the date/time of the triggering event, usually >> several days to a few months previous, and then go bumble around in >> the Time Machine until I *see* the (usually a flurry of) changes and >> forensically can figure out exactly *what* changed and *guess* why, >> etc. A point and click later and we are back to the earlier state, >> and if I'm wrong, another point and click and we are at another >> state, and .... > > rsync doesn't solve this particular problem. If I need to do that, I > use a version control system - eg subversion - if my wife needs to do > that, she is SOL :). I'm not going to try to teach her > subversion. Fortunately, that has never happened. > > I have used rsync for about 15 years now, before that using QIC > (150MB) and Exabyte tape storage (4GB). This gives "single spindle" > protection. I have never lost data (well nothing significant, anyway), even > though I have had to restore from backups maybe 5-10 times in that > period due to hard disk failures. > > Time Machine would be nice (provided I could develop trust of > it). Unfortunately, I'm Linux, not Mac, so its not an option :). If > someone implements a transparent copy on write versioning file system, > I'd probably install it on my home partition, just in case I even need > to solve a problem like the above. Subversion is too expensive for > /home. Alas, even though some experimental versions exist, none have > made it to prime time. > > Someone was asking how to do encrypted cloud offsite backups. You can > use gpg for this. In practice, though, I don't see how you could do > incremental backups with gpg in the pipeline, so probably you would > need to maintain another local disk for encrypted data, and then mirror > the encrypted data offsite with rsync. > > Of course, that assume your cloud provider gives you ssh access to > allow the use of rsync. Are there any such enlightened services around? > > -- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) > Principal, High Performance Coders > Visiting Professor of Mathematics [hidden email] > University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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Gary-
> As Russell and others have pointed out, TM provides a hybrid of version control and backup. I wonder if it would be feasible to use SVN to manage an entire operating system? You could in essence do hourly commits of '/' with periodic pruning, but I'm sure it wouldn't be as simple as that. Would obviously need to exclude some things like device files. The performance would likely stink big time, too. > > Gary To all the Apple deriders: "Apple does it so it *can't* be that hard can it?" Seriously... I've come to take it entirely for granted and while *that* is a bad idea, I am thankful not to be worrying (in the same way) about keeping my Macs from going AWOL without recourse. - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Russell Standish-2
On 4/8/13 5:48 PM, Russell Standish wrote:
Russell- > On Mon, Apr 08, 2013 at 12:49:47PM -0600, Steve Smith wrote: > A point and click later and we are back to the earlier state, > and if I'm wrong, another point and click and we are at another > state, and .... > rsync doesn't solve this particular problem. If I need to do that, I > use a version control system - eg subversion I've used Subversion (and in the ancient prehistory SCCS and RCS) which is partly why for my professional projects, I don't worry so much about *backup* perse... everything is in a repository *off site* and backed up by someone with more care and patience than *I* have. > - if my wife needs to do > that, she is SOL :). I'm not going to try to teach her > subversion. Fortunately, that has never happened. Wow, it is my *wife* that has taught *me* all I know about subversion (as opposed to Subversion(tm)). She's the master (mistress?) at it! > > Time Machine would be nice (provided I could develop trust of > it). Unfortunately, I'm Linux, not Mac, so its not an option :). If > someone implements a transparent copy on write versioning file system, > I'd probably install it on my home partition, just in case I even need > to solve a problem like the above. Subversion is too expensive for > /home. Alas, even though some experimental versions exist, none have > made it to prime time. I'm surprised someone (aside from Apple) hasn't solved this. I presume there is no Time Machine interface for anything but OSX. But I haven't checked... it is *mostly* software. To the extent that (too?) many of us do *nothing*, it is not hard to trust Time Machine to do *more*. Thanks for the clarification about rsync... since incremental/diff-based source control has been around *forever* and Time Machine for 5 or more years? I assumed there were other equivalent solutions... hmmmm? Silly Apple, *why* would they ever think they were unique? - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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On Mon, Apr 08, 2013 at 06:50:38PM -0600, Steve Smith wrote:
> On 4/8/13 5:48 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > Russell- > > > >Time Machine would be nice (provided I could develop trust of > >it). Unfortunately, I'm Linux, not Mac, so its not an option :). If > >someone implements a transparent copy on write versioning file system, > >I'd probably install it on my home partition, just in case I even need > >to solve a problem like the above. Subversion is too expensive for > >/home. Alas, even though some experimental versions exist, none have > >made it to prime time. > I'm surprised someone (aside from Apple) hasn't solved this. I > presume there is no Time Machine interface for anything but OSX. But > I haven't checked... it is *mostly* software. To the extent that > (too?) many of us do *nothing*, it is not hard to trust Time Machine > to do *more*. > > Thanks for the clarification about rsync... since > incremental/diff-based source control has been around *forever* and > Time Machine for 5 or more years? I assumed there were other > equivalent solutions... hmmmm? Silly Apple, *why* would they ever > think they were unique? > > Expensive commercial stuff exists that do exactly that. I remember using some in the dim-distant past that worked with tape robots. But I'm not aware of open source software that solves the problem. Pretty much all the stuff I do care about exist in offsite repositories (arXiv, SourceForge, etc) - with the exception of the GBs of family photos and videos. I should do something about those, I suppose. Of course at this stage, I have no plans on digitising the mound of hardcopy photos that existed prior to us getting a digital camera circa 2005, so there's still a lot of history at risk. My biggest risk at the moment is video, particularly VHS, which is fading fast, even without the house burning down. Cheers -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics [hidden email] University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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Russell -
> with the exception of the GBs > of family photos and videos. I should do something about those, I > suppose. Of course at this stage, I have no plans on digitising the > mound of hardcopy photos that existed prior to us getting a digital > camera circa 2005, so there's still a lot of history at risk. My > biggest risk at the moment is video, particularly VHS, which is fading > fast, even without the house burning down. > I call this the "aft information horizon"... not just information redshift (which by analogy is information which is receding behind us so quickly we don't have the context to understand it well... i.e. most of history) but a true horizon that we can't see over unless somebody (else?) takes care of it. Project Gutenberg, Google Books and any number of commercial services and apparently philanthropic venture do seem to be filling some stuff in. I am *amazed* at how easy it is to find scanned copies of nearly every service manual I might care about, back to and including the shop manuals for my 1949 Ford 2 1/2 ton dump truck! I saw recently on one of my rare visits to either WalMart or Walgreens someone sitting at a console almost like a video-game machine or a do-it-yourself blood-pressure kiosk, scanning photographs onto (I assume) CD. There was a slot for sliding in photos, another for negatives and I presume one for slides? I also saw a slot for VHS tapes... I didn't linger, but it looked like this self-service Kiosk (had a credit-card reader) was designed for folks with no ability or inclination to rig/wire/mangle up the right gear to their computer to get their family "jewels" digitized. I didn't notice pricing, but it had to be commodity-based or who would use it? I know this probably doesn't help you "down under" but then again, maybe there are similar services about in Oz? - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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On Mon, Apr 08, 2013 at 07:40:48PM -0600, Steve Smith wrote:
> I saw recently on one of my rare visits to either WalMart or > Walgreens someone sitting at a console almost like a video-game > machine or a do-it-yourself blood-pressure kiosk, scanning > photographs onto (I assume) CD. There was a slot for sliding in > photos, another for negatives and I presume one for slides? I also > saw a slot for VHS tapes... I didn't linger, but it looked like > this self-service Kiosk (had a credit-card reader) was designed for > folks with no ability or inclination to rig/wire/mangle up the right > gear to their computer to get their family "jewels" digitized. > > I didn't notice pricing, but it had to be commodity-based or who > would use it? > > I know this probably doesn't help you "down under" but then again, > maybe there are similar services about in Oz? > I haven't seen any, but I'll keep an eye out, it could be useful, depending on how fast they are. Companies specialising in VHS transfer and Cine film transfer do exist. I've used them for cine film, as I have relative small footages in that format, but they're too expensive for VHS :). Cheers -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics [hidden email] University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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Unable to find a VHS player to buy, I bought a refurbished VHS/DVD recorder from Best Buy for about $100 which works fine for transferring VHS to DVD.
Ed __________ Ed Angel Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico 1017 Sierra Pinon On Apr 8, 2013, at 8:36 PM, Russell Standish wrote:
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In reply to this post by Russell Standish-2
Russell-
Re: refreshing video to digital... more like this? Magnavox DVD Recorder & 4-Head Hi-Fi VCR with Line-In Recording, ZV427MG9 copy off what you have to DVD and upload to your Cloud/wherever and pass the box on (sell?) to the next person who needs it. Seems like a good excuse to watch some of your "home movies" or what have you. It seems to offer 5x speed which isn't enormous, but beats realtime? Any retail service may be reasonably priced but probably can't solve the problem of speed much better... probably best for "incidental" transfer. - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Russ Abbott
I, too, am paying for a large Dropbox account, but here are a couple things I don't like about it.
So like Russ, I'll go ahead and install the Amazon tool and give it a test drive. -tj On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:
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I can't imagine doing any kind of work that evolves over time (even a few days' time) without using some kind of revision control system. I don't know how much people use git for purposes other than software, but it seems like a reasonable means of backing up and tracking revisions of any type of file. Github offers private repositories starting at $7 per month. I investigated whether any of the cloud storage providers also offer any type of revision control. Gary On Apr 8, 2013, at 10:16 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote: I, too, am paying for a large Dropbox account, but here are a couple things I don't like about it. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
FWIW, I like Mercurial as a version control system. It can be entirely local or distributed, but there is no unique master repository. The commands are very similar to Git. Whenever I have something that benefits from saving previous versions, I create a Mercurial repository in the directory, or base directory, that contains the 'something'.
We expect to make it an optional part of our software, with the repository for a document inside the document itself. That way, a (fat version) of a document file would contain not only the text, images, videos, etc. of the document, but also its full history. (There would of course be a skinny version with the historical record removed.) If you have the file, you have its complete history. If you lose the file, well, that's what backups are for. --Barry On Apr 8, 2013, at 6:50 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote: > On 4/8/13 5:48 PM, Russell Standish wrote: > Russell- >> On Mon, Apr 08, 2013 at 12:49:47PM -0600, Steve Smith wrote: >> A point and click later and we are back to the earlier state, >> and if I'm wrong, another point and click and we are at another >> state, and .... >> rsync doesn't solve this particular problem. If I need to do that, I >> use a version control system - eg subversion > I've used Subversion (and in the ancient prehistory SCCS and RCS) which is partly why for my professional projects, I don't worry so much about *backup* perse... everything is in a repository *off site* and backed up by someone with more care and patience than *I* have. >> - if my wife needs to do >> that, she is SOL :). I'm not going to try to teach her >> subversion. Fortunately, that has never happened. > Wow, it is my *wife* that has taught *me* all I know about subversion (as opposed to Subversion(tm)). She's the master (mistress?) at it! >> >> Time Machine would be nice (provided I could develop trust of >> it). Unfortunately, I'm Linux, not Mac, so its not an option :). If >> someone implements a transparent copy on write versioning file system, >> I'd probably install it on my home partition, just in case I even need >> to solve a problem like the above. Subversion is too expensive for >> /home. Alas, even though some experimental versions exist, none have >> made it to prime time. > I'm surprised someone (aside from Apple) hasn't solved this. I presume there is no Time Machine interface for anything but OSX. But I haven't checked... it is *mostly* software. To the extent that (too?) many of us do *nothing*, it is not hard to trust Time Machine to do *more*. > > Thanks for the clarification about rsync... since incremental/diff-based source control has been around *forever* and Time Machine for 5 or more years? I assumed there were other equivalent solutions... hmmmm? Silly Apple, *why* would they ever think they were unique? > > > - Steve > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Edward Angel
Ed, thanks for that. I've got a lot of old VHS news programs, etc., of me that I'd like to transfer to DVD. It didn't occur to me it could be done so cheaply.
Pamela On Apr 8, 2013, at 10:43 PM, Edward Angel <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4
One more plug, then I'll crawl back into my hole. SparkleShare <http://sparkleshare.org/> uses Git as its storage mechanism. You can revert to previous versions of files via the normal Git tools. It also consolidates several repositories on different hosts, allowing private clouds as well as more public ones like those on Github. Gary Schiltz wrote at 04/08/2013 08:28 PM: > I can't imagine doing any kind of work that evolves over time (even a > few days' time) without using some kind of revision control system. I > don't know how much people use git for purposes other than software, but > it seems like a reasonable means of backing up and tracking revisions of > any type of file. Github offers private repositories starting at $7 per > month. I investigated whether any of the cloud storage providers also > offer any type of revision control. -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-255-2847, http://tempusdictum.com ... it is unfortunate that enthymeme resolution is treated as a kind of presumptive meaning determination. -- Gabbay & Woods in "The Reach of Abduction" ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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I've always said that. Ask anybody, they'll tell you. They'll say, that Roberts guy is always saying, "it is unfortunate that enthymeme resolution is treated as a kind of presumptive meaning determination".
It fact, it's been pointed out to that I say this so often, it's almost become my meme. So I think I'll stop saying it. --Doug
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 11:32 AM, glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> wrote: --
Doug Roberts
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Doug -
I think you are reaching here... I've always said that. Ask anybody, they'll tell you. They'll say, that Roberts guy is always saying, "it is unfortunate that enthymeme resolution is treated as a kind of presumptive meaning determination"....As in reaching around behind yourself and grabbing your "abduction" in both hands... I loved this excerpt from the Wikipedia link to "Abductive Reasoning": Abduction: The term was first introduced by the American philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce (1839–1914) as "guessing".And of course, an enthymeme is: an informally stated syllogism (a three-part deductive argument) with an unstated assumption that must be true for the premises to lead to the conclusion part of the argument is missing because it is assumed.and... to elaborate further: Aristotle, who defined it in his Rhetoric, an enthymeme was a "rhetorical syllogism" which was based on probable opinions, thus distinguishing it from a scientific syllogism. It is aimed at persuasion while scientific syllogism is aimed at demonstration *I* do find unpacking Glen's obscure linguistic constructs both informative and entertaining. I think you'll be seeing a lot more references to "abduction" on the list now, if not the enthymemetic conjugation of multipart syllogisms within the context of the larger semantic tableaux. (+1 for Glen's taglines) - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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