Can America change?

[Jochen Fromm-5]

One problem I find interesting is the combination of
civilization and barbarism. How do the best and the
worst of a culture fit together:

* Goethe and Buchenwald in Germany
* Konfuzius and the live burial of scholars in ancient China
* Francis of Assisi and inquisition in the Christian church
* hieroglyphs and mass human sacrifice in Aztec Culture

In a recent blog post I argue that this combination can
be found in a threatened system which is unable to change.
Systems threatened in their existence which are unwilling
or unable to change react with torture and all forms of
inhuman punishment to heresy and terrorism:
http://blog.cas-group.net/2010/05/the-end-of-civilization/

I think the America of George W. Bush was headed straight
into the direction of barbarism. He started an unjust
war in Iraq and lied about the reasons (does anyone
remember "freedom fries" ?). He created a detention
camp in Guantanamo Bay which still exists. He introduced
torture techniques like waterboarding.

Remember the Nazis did all these things, too, they
started the WWII and lied about the cause, the
extermination camps started as Prisoner-of-war camps,
and the Gestapo used many torture techniques.

In this sense, Obama has saved America. If Bush
would still be in power, we would have to add
Harvard and Guantanamo Bay to the list above.
Yet Guantanamo Bay still exists, and his approval
ratings are in steady decline. What do you think, will
America really be able to change?

-J.



============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Bill Eldridge]

A bit confusing laid out this way - Goethe and Buchenwald were very different times, over a century apart, despite location.
As St. Francis and the more famous inquisitions (the inqusitions near his time I don't think were  directly related).
The Franciscans were allowed to stay after the Crusades ran out though - because of a very different style of Christianity.
The Iraq War certainly had justifications - whether legal in the international norms of 2003,
the US was facing long-term stasis and steady if infrequent attacks in the Middle East, and this was one way of re-shuffling the deck.
Certainly other countries have done similar - Russia in Chechnya and Georgia, countries like Tanzania & Uganda moving
into Congo, etc, (If the Chinese weren't doing so well peacefully, Taiwan would have been gobbled up much earlier).

While I'm certainly not a Bush fan, we've got quite a bit of hyperbole going here to compare him very strongly
to Aztec blood sacrifice and Nazi atrocities. Lessee, "between 10,000 and 80,400 persons" were sacrificed over
the course of four days for the dedication of the Great Pyramid in 1487", while human sacrifice lasted as a Mezo-American
tradition for 800 years. Buchenwald incarcerated maybe 250,000 with over 50,000 deaths. At worst Gitmo has what, 1-2 dozen deaths?

On 12/12/2010 3:50 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:

One problem I find interesting is the combination of
civilization and barbarism. How do the best and the worst of a culture fit together:
* Goethe and Buchenwald in Germany
* Konfuzius and the live burial of scholars in ancient China
* Francis of Assisi and inquisition in the Christian church
* hieroglyphs and mass human sacrifice in Aztec Culture

In a recent blog post I argue that this combination can be found in a threatened system which is unable to change. Systems threatened in their existence which are unwilling or unable to change react with torture and all forms of inhuman punishment to heresy and terrorism:
http://blog.cas-group.net/2010/05/the-end-of-civilization/

I think the America of George W. Bush was headed straight
into the direction of barbarism. He started an unjust war in Iraq and lied about the reasons (does anyone remember "freedom fries" ?). He created a detention camp in Guantanamo Bay which still exists. He introduced torture techniques like waterboarding.

Remember the Nazis did all these things, too, they
started the WWII and lied about the cause, the extermination camps started as Prisoner-of-war camps, and the Gestapo used many torture techniques.

In this sense, Obama has saved America. If Bush would still be in power, we would have to add
Harvard and Guantanamo Bay to the list above.
Yet Guantanamo Bay still exists, and his approval ratings are in steady decline. What do you think, will America really be able to change?

-J.



============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org