CNET reviews Psystar's Snow Leopard-based Open(Q) | Crave - CNET

[Owen Densmore]

Yet another attempt to make OSX available on generic PC hardware.  
This one is trying really hard though, and in the era of  
virtualization, may actually win.
   http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10372246-1.html

Lots of noise on the net about it: http://tinyurl.com/yhplse6

I'm not sure how the trade off REALLY works for Apple: sell fewer  
laptops/desktops but sell more versions of OSX and get more folks into  
the Apple camp.  I'm wondering if Apple just gave in and made sure  
they got a cut of the take they'd be better off.

I'd love it if it meant I could have a tablet laptop, or a netbook or  
some such but running OSX.  Unlikely though, unless psytar or their  
new OEM group supports all the drivers needed for that.

     -- Owen



============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Douglas Roberts-2]

Geeze!

Why try so hard, when there are good, viable alternatives?

--Doug

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yet another attempt to make OSX available on generic PC hardware.  This one is trying really hard though, and in the era of virtualization, may actually win.
 http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10372246-1.html

Lots of noise on the net about it: http://tinyurl.com/yhplse6

I'm not sure how the trade off REALLY works for Apple: sell fewer laptops/desktops but sell more versions of OSX and get more folks into the Apple camp.  I'm wondering if Apple just gave in and made sure they got a cut of the take they'd be better off.

I'd love it if it meant I could have a tablet laptop, or a netbook or some such but running OSX.  Unlikely though, unless psytar or their new OEM group supports all the drivers needed for that.

   -- Owen



============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Owen Densmore]

On Oct 10, 2009, at 4:33 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

Geeze!

Why try so hard, when there are good, viable alternatives?

--Doug

As wonderful as linux world is, they still are at war with each other.  They do not have a unified software package management system across them all.  There are differing window systems and UI toolkits.  Cut/paste is not always assured to work across different UI toolkits.  And linux servers are still the core target, not desktops.

So much like the Mac/Windows incompatibilities, the linux platforms have their own incompatibilities, thus form their own siloed communities.  Your foo won't work with my bar.

And the linux developers are hypersensitive to what their users consider trivial, thus creating unnecessary divergence.

It does seem to be getting better, with Ubuntu leading the way to desktop centric linux.  Maybe it'll all converge eventually with a single window system, desktop, UI toolkit, software package system, and application interoperability (cut/paste etc).

But until you spend less time fussing to get your system working than linux requires, and have universal drivers so that when you buy a laptop all of its features work very well with your linux distro, and maybe even have a large number of vendors supporting linux systems, .. you still have the linux of old: fussy, incomplete, and incompatible.

You'll know you've arrived when you don't ask your linux packing laptop friend which distro he's using.

    -- Owen

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Douglas Roberts-2]

To counter:

Competition Is Good!

More deep, penetrating comments below.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 5:37 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Oct 10, 2009, at 4:33 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

Geeze!

Why try so hard, when there are good, viable alternatives?

--Doug

As wonderful as linux world is, they still are at war with each other.  They do not have a unified software package management system across them all.  There are differing window systems and UI toolkits.

 

So?  Pick the one you like.
 

 Cut/paste is not always assured to work across different UI toolkits.  And linux servers are still the core target, not desktops.

Disagree about the core target.  The desktop is (K)Ubuntu's core target. 

Cut and paste used to be a pain in the ass, but I haven't had any problems yet this year.  Perhaps because I'm mostly running (K)Ubuntu on the 20 or so systems I manage on my various projects. For example, I have no (absolutely zero) problems cutting and pasting between a VNC session running on a CENTOS system to an Ubuntu host, nor vice versa.  Nor between apps on either system (including EMACS, which always tended to be a bit different).

So much like the Mac/Windows incompatibilities, the linux platforms have their own incompatibilities, thus form their own siloed communities.  Your foo won't work with my bar.

Haven't seen this. I use apps on Ubutnu, Kubuntu RHEL, SuSE, CENTOS, and Mandrake.  I've never had an app work on one distro, but not another.  [Discounting some of the oddball distros, like Arch and Slackware (where I started, btw).]  Arch and Slackware are both good examples of active Darwinism in the OS world.  Soon to become extinct.
 

And the linux developers are hypersensitive to what their users consider trivial, thus creating unnecessary divergence.

 Agree.  But, if I may: we Linux Fanbois pale in comparison to you Apple worshipers. Look up "Fanatic" on WikiPedia and you will find a picture of a wild-eyed geek brandishing an iWhaetver.

It does seem to be getting better, with Ubuntu leading the way to desktop centric linux.  Maybe it'll all converge eventually with a single window system, desktop, UI toolkit, software package system, and application interoperability (cut/paste etc).

I don't want that, because (wait for it) COMPETITION IS GOOD.  As soon as one mega Corp/Distro maintainer achieves dominance, market sensitivity goes out the window.  The tension between Ubuntu's Gnome bigots, and Kubuntu's KDE bigots had hardened both UIs.
 

But until you spend less time fussing to get your system working than linux requires, and have universal drivers so that when you buy a laptop all of its features work very well with your linux distro, and maybe even have a large number of vendors supporting linux systems, .. you still have the linux of old: fussy, incomplete, and incompatible.

Universal, shmuniversal.  I just want it to work, without having to leap hurdles.  I don't care if it works for you, I just want it to work for me.

You'll know you've arrived when you don't ask your linux packing laptop friend which distro he's using.

Back to that competition thing again.
 

    -- Owen

--Doug

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Owen Densmore]

Nicely done!

    -- Owen

On Oct 10, 2009, at 6:00 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

To counter:

Competition Is Good!

More deep, penetrating comments below.

...

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Douglas Roberts-2]

What are you doing?!  Answering one thread with your left hand, and the other with your right?  I'm impressed!

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nicely done!

    -- Owen

On Oct 10, 2009, at 6:00 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

To counter:

Competition Is Good!

More deep, penetrating comments below.

...

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Robert Holmes]

But let's not forget that Linux users are hopelessly optimistic about hardware support...

http://xkcd.org/644

-- Robert

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

To counter:

Competition Is Good!

More deep, penetrating comments below.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 5:37 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Oct 10, 2009, at 4:33 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

Geeze!

Why try so hard, when there are good, viable alternatives?

--Doug

As wonderful as linux world is, they still are at war with each other.  They do not have a unified software package management system across them all.  There are differing window systems and UI toolkits.

 

So?  Pick the one you like.
 

 Cut/paste is not always assured to work across different UI toolkits.  And linux servers are still the core target, not desktops.

Disagree about the core target.  The desktop is (K)Ubuntu's core target. 

Cut and paste used to be a pain in the ass, but I haven't had any problems yet this year.  Perhaps because I'm mostly running (K)Ubuntu on the 20 or so systems I manage on my various projects. For example, I have no (absolutely zero) problems cutting and pasting between a VNC session running on a CENTOS system to an Ubuntu host, nor vice versa.  Nor between apps on either system (including EMACS, which always tended to be a bit different).

So much like the Mac/Windows incompatibilities, the linux platforms have their own incompatibilities, thus form their own siloed communities.  Your foo won't work with my bar.

Haven't seen this. I use apps on Ubutnu, Kubuntu RHEL, SuSE, CENTOS, and Mandrake.  I've never had an app work on one distro, but not another.  [Discounting some of the oddball distros, like Arch and Slackware (where I started, btw).]  Arch and Slackware are both good examples of active Darwinism in the OS world.  Soon to become extinct.
 

And the linux developers are hypersensitive to what their users consider trivial, thus creating unnecessary divergence.

 Agree.  But, if I may: we Linux Fanbois pale in comparison to you Apple worshipers. Look up "Fanatic" on WikiPedia and you will find a picture of a wild-eyed geek brandishing an iWhaetver.

It does seem to be getting better, with Ubuntu leading the way to desktop centric linux.  Maybe it'll all converge eventually with a single window system, desktop, UI toolkit, software package system, and application interoperability (cut/paste etc).

I don't want that, because (wait for it) COMPETITION IS GOOD.  As soon as one mega Corp/Distro maintainer achieves dominance, market sensitivity goes out the window.  The tension between Ubuntu's Gnome bigots, and Kubuntu's KDE bigots had hardened both UIs.
 

But until you spend less time fussing to get your system working than linux requires, and have universal drivers so that when you buy a laptop all of its features work very well with your linux distro, and maybe even have a large number of vendors supporting linux systems, .. you still have the linux of old: fussy, incomplete, and incompatible.

Universal, shmuniversal.  I just want it to work, without having to leap hurdles.  I don't care if it works for you, I just want it to work for me.

You'll know you've arrived when you don't ask your linux packing laptop friend which distro he's using.

Back to that competition thing again.
 

    -- Owen

--Doug

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Douglas Roberts-2]

Ask me some time how much homework I had to do when purchasing the hardware for my new Linux home entertainment system...

But then good news:  Nvidia 8200 chipsets kick ass and have good Linux support (ASUS M73N78-VM MB).  Bullet-proof wireless -N micro-ATX box, AMD 3.0 GHx dual-core processor, 4 GB RAM, 1 TB drive, all for about $500.

Oh,  and it just works, driving a 46" Samsung LED flat panel TV, via a 700 W Denon amp.  And my 20 year old Celestion 9 speakers, which still sound wonderful.

Dropped DISH, there is no television to be found in  the house; I get all of my content via the intertubes...

--Doug

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 8:09 PM, Robert Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote:

But let's not forget that Linux users are hopelessly optimistic about hardware support...

http://xkcd.org/644

-- Robert

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

To counter:

Competition Is Good!

More deep, penetrating comments below.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 5:37 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Oct 10, 2009, at 4:33 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

Geeze!

Why try so hard, when there are good, viable alternatives?

--Doug

As wonderful as linux world is, they still are at war with each other.  They do not have a unified software package management system across them all.  There are differing window systems and UI toolkits.

 

So?  Pick the one you like.
 

 Cut/paste is not always assured to work across different UI toolkits.  And linux servers are still the core target, not desktops.

Disagree about the core target.  The desktop is (K)Ubuntu's core target. 

Cut and paste used to be a pain in the ass, but I haven't had any problems yet this year.  Perhaps because I'm mostly running (K)Ubuntu on the 20 or so systems I manage on my various projects. For example, I have no (absolutely zero) problems cutting and pasting between a VNC session running on a CENTOS system to an Ubuntu host, nor vice versa.  Nor between apps on either system (including EMACS, which always tended to be a bit different).

So much like the Mac/Windows incompatibilities, the linux platforms have their own incompatibilities, thus form their own siloed communities.  Your foo won't work with my bar.

Haven't seen this. I use apps on Ubutnu, Kubuntu RHEL, SuSE, CENTOS, and Mandrake.  I've never had an app work on one distro, but not another.  [Discounting some of the oddball distros, like Arch and Slackware (where I started, btw).]  Arch and Slackware are both good examples of active Darwinism in the OS world.  Soon to become extinct.
 

And the linux developers are hypersensitive to what their users consider trivial, thus creating unnecessary divergence.

 Agree.  But, if I may: we Linux Fanbois pale in comparison to you Apple worshipers. Look up "Fanatic" on WikiPedia and you will find a picture of a wild-eyed geek brandishing an iWhaetver.

It does seem to be getting better, with Ubuntu leading the way to desktop centric linux.  Maybe it'll all converge eventually with a single window system, desktop, UI toolkit, software package system, and application interoperability (cut/paste etc).

I don't want that, because (wait for it) COMPETITION IS GOOD.  As soon as one mega Corp/Distro maintainer achieves dominance, market sensitivity goes out the window.  The tension between Ubuntu's Gnome bigots, and Kubuntu's KDE bigots had hardened both UIs.
 

But until you spend less time fussing to get your system working than linux requires, and have universal drivers so that when you buy a laptop all of its features work very well with your linux distro, and maybe even have a large number of vendors supporting linux systems, .. you still have the linux of old: fussy, incomplete, and incompatible.

Universal, shmuniversal.  I just want it to work, without having to leap hurdles.  I don't care if it works for you, I just want it to work for me.

You'll know you've arrived when you don't ask your linux packing laptop friend which distro he's using.

Back to that competition thing again.
 

    -- Owen

--Doug

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Russell Standish]

As a developer of software on Linux, I would like to support a Mac OSX
port, just as I do a Windows port (via Cygwin). The Window I use runs
on a VMWare partition. I would like the same of a Mac OS without
having to purchase a very expensive computer to do it. Current Mac
offerings are more than an order of magnitude more expensive than what
I'm prepared to pay, and even ebay doesn't seem to have much but pre
OSX machines out there, which are no good to me.

OSX on a VM partition would be fantastic news for me, if the price is
right. Until then, Mac users will have to do their own support ...


Cheers

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 04:33:25PM -0600, Douglas Roberts wrote:

> Geeze!
>
> Why try so hard, when there are good <http://www.ubuntu.com/>,
> viable<http://www.kubuntu.org/>
> alternatives <http://wiki.centos.org/>?
>
> --Doug
>
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Yet another attempt to make OSX available on generic PC hardware.  This one
> > is trying really hard though, and in the era of virtualization, may actually
> > win.
> >  http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10372246-1.html
> >
> > Lots of noise on the net about it: http://tinyurl.com/yhplse6
> >
> > I'm not sure how the trade off REALLY works for Apple: sell fewer
> > laptops/desktops but sell more versions of OSX and get more folks into the
> > Apple camp.  I'm wondering if Apple just gave in and made sure they got a
> > cut of the take they'd be better off.
> >
> > I'd love it if it meant I could have a tablet laptop, or a netbook or some
> > such but running OSX.  Unlikely though, unless psytar or their new OEM group
> > supports all the drivers needed for that.
> >
> >    -- Owen
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Doug Roberts
> [hidden email]
> [hidden email]
> 505-455-7333 - Office
> 505-670-8195 - Cell

> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof Russell Standish                  Phone [phone] (mobile)
Mathematics                        
UNSW SYDNEY 2052                 [hidden email]
Australia                                http://www.hpcoders.com.au
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

russell standish wrote:
> OSX on a VM partition would be fantastic news for me, if the price is
> right.
If that comes to fruition, there won't be any more $25 OSX upgrades from
Apple, that's for sure.

Fedora 11 and Ubuntu 9.10 work on MacBooks, but not on external
drives.   The hybrid GPT/MBR partitioning is just voodoo as far as I can
tell, but it is possible to have Windows 7, Fedora 11 and Snow Leopard
on the same laptop (I do).   Due to partitioning limitations, I had to
restrict my Fedora 11 partition to a single partition, and not use ext4
(so that I could boot from the same partition) nor have a swap drive
(loopback swap files work though).

VMware isn't always an option if you are working with hardware like
GPUs.   It's easier with desktops (e.g. Mac Pro), where you can take a
whole SATA drive.

Otherwise, VMware Fusion is a great product IMO.

Marcus

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