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Backup solutions (was "stupidest question....")

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Bill Eldridge

Backup solutions (was "stupidest question....")

One option is a Linux-on-CD distro that supports Windows file systems
and has DVD & CD write tools. (I like k3b as a graphical interface for
backup,
though if you're going to do this a lot, you probably want
boot-to-command-line,
run script, shut down). Presuming you don't mind rebooting to file-sync.

There's something new for XP called SyncToy that may be useful,
though it doesn't mention DVD/CD, probably same situation as old Backup.

Backup4All standard edition has built-in CD/DVD drivers ($30)
http://www.backup4all.com/buy_now.php

WinBackup for $50 supports DVD:
http://www.liutilities.com/products/winbackup/
Same with Nova:
http://www.novastor.com/pcbackup/backup/n_backup.html

Of course a 5-Gig Seagate pocket USB drive goes for $80, but that doesn't
give multiple backups.

If you install the Nero 7 CD-burner demo, 30-days, 130 Megs ;-( , it may
leave the driver
that you need for drag-and-drop to CD-RW once it's expired. (I used to use a
backup program for XP called Second Copy, and they have this to say:

Does Second Copy work with CD-R/CD-RW drives? Yes. Second Copy works
with CD Recordable/ReWritable drives (CD-R/CD-RW) if a proper device
driver is installed and configured with your drive. The driver should
make the CDRW behave like a large floppy disk.

Nero InCD (part of Nero 6 or later) and Roxio DirectCD (part of Easy
Media Creator) are two such products that work with various CD-R/CD-RW
drives and makes them look like large floppy disks. Check with your
CD-R/CD-RW documentation.

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Russell Standish

Backup solutions (was "stupidest question....")

One problem with this notion, is that Linux does not support write
access to NTFS (used for WindowsXP), except as a
"take-you-life-into-your-own-hands-you-have-been-warned" option.

Restoration of data can therefore be difficult.

This is not Linux's fault - MS does not publish the details of NTFS,
so is free to change things under to hood, with potentially
disasterous consequence for anyone trying to write to NTFS without
going through the MS software stack.

Cheers

On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 10:44:26AM +0200, Bill Eldridge wrote:

>
> One option is a Linux-on-CD distro that supports Windows file systems
> and has DVD & CD write tools. (I like k3b as a graphical interface for
> backup,
> though if you're going to do this a lot, you probably want
> boot-to-command-line,
> run script, shut down). Presuming you don't mind rebooting to file-sync.
>
> There's something new for XP called SyncToy that may be useful,
> though it doesn't mention DVD/CD, probably same situation as old Backup.
>
>
> Backup4All standard edition has built-in CD/DVD drivers ($30)
> http://www.backup4all.com/buy_now.php
>
> WinBackup for $50 supports DVD:
> http://www.liutilities.com/products/winbackup/
> Same with Nova:
> http://www.novastor.com/pcbackup/backup/n_backup.html
>
> Of course a 5-Gig Seagate pocket USB drive goes for $80, but that doesn't
> give multiple backups.
>
> If you install the Nero 7 CD-burner demo, 30-days, 130 Megs ;-( , it may
> leave the driver
> that you need for drag-and-drop to CD-RW once it's expired. (I used to use a
> backup program for XP called Second Copy, and they have this to say:
>
> Does Second Copy work with CD-R/CD-RW drives? Yes. Second Copy works
> with CD Recordable/ReWritable drives (CD-R/CD-RW) if a proper device
> driver is installed and configured with your drive. The driver should
> make the CDRW behave like a large floppy disk.
>
> Nero InCD (part of Nero 6 or later) and Roxio DirectCD (part of Easy
> Media Creator) are two such products that work with various CD-R/CD-RW
> drives and makes them look like large floppy disks. Check with your
> CD-R/CD-RW documentation.
>
>
>

> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
Australia http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bill Eldridge

Backup solutions (was "stupidest question....")

True, don't try to use Linux to write to NTFS.

But if you're just trying to get the data backup onto CD/DVD, I think
you can use Linux for burning the CD/DVD, and then copy it the
info back to disk on the other machine using the Windows operating system.

Russell Standish wrote:

Mohammed El-Beltagy

Backup solutions (was "stupidest question....")

In reply to this post by Russell Standish

This is a problem if you want to backup bits of pieces of your harddisk.
However if you want to create an image of your entire drive you could use
ntfsclone (http://man.linux-ntfs.org/ntfsclone.8.html).
This is a nice tutorial of how to do it http://tinyurl.com/5mrsl

If you are interested in just a partial backup to you can write to an
external usb drive provided that it is formated fat32 (I have yet to see one
that isn't). You can then read that usb drive on any windows system.

You could also write to other computers running Windows on a network (NTFS
formated or not) using samba.

On Sunday 04 June 2006 04:43, Russell Standish wrote:

> One problem with this notion, is that Linux does not support write
> access to NTFS (used for WindowsXP), except as a
> "take-you-life-into-your-own-hands-you-have-been-warned" option.
>
> Restoration of data can therefore be difficult.
>
> This is not Linux's fault - MS does not publish the details of NTFS,
> so is free to change things under to hood, with potentially
> disasterous consequence for anyone trying to write to NTFS without
> going through the MS software stack.
>
> Cheers
>
> On Sat, Jun 03, 2006 at 10:44:26AM +0200, Bill Eldridge wrote:
> > One option is a Linux-on-CD distro that supports Windows file systems
> > and has DVD & CD write tools. (I like k3b as a graphical interface for
> > backup,
> > though if you're going to do this a lot, you probably want
> > boot-to-command-line,
> > run script, shut down). Presuming you don't mind rebooting to file-sync.
> >
> > There's something new for XP called SyncToy that may be useful,
> > though it doesn't mention DVD/CD, probably same situation as old Backup.
> >
> >
> > Backup4All standard edition has built-in CD/DVD drivers ($30)
> > http://www.backup4all.com/buy_now.php
> >
> > WinBackup for $50 supports DVD:
> > http://www.liutilities.com/products/winbackup/
> > Same with Nova:
> > http://www.novastor.com/pcbackup/backup/n_backup.html
> >
> > Of course a 5-Gig Seagate pocket USB drive goes for $80, but that doesn't
> > give multiple backups.
> >
> > If you install the Nero 7 CD-burner demo, 30-days, 130 Megs ;-( , it may
> > leave the driver
> > that you need for drag-and-drop to CD-RW once it's expired. (I used to
> > use a backup program for XP called Second Copy, and they have this to
> > say:
> >
> > Does Second Copy work with CD-R/CD-RW drives? Yes. Second Copy works
> > with CD Recordable/ReWritable drives (CD-R/CD-RW) if a proper device
> > driver is installed and configured with your drive. The driver should
> > make the CDRW behave like a large floppy disk.
> >
> > Nero InCD (part of Nero 6 or later) and Roxio DirectCD (part of Easy
> > Media Creator) are two such products that work with various CD-R/CD-RW
> > drives and makes them look like large floppy disks. Check with your
> > CD-R/CD-RW documentation.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Parks, Raymond

Backup solutions (was "stupidest question....")

In reply to this post by Russell Standish

Russell Standish wrote:

Actually, a colleague once talked to the writer of the NTFS
experimental driver for Linux via email. As a filesystem, NTFS is
relatively simple, but in implementation it is inherently unstable.
Errors are unavoidable. That is why Windows takes so long to shutdown -
it is going through the filesystem correcting the errors that have
accumulated during a session. The Linux driver writer didn't have the
time and energy to find out all the error cases and develop the corrections.

--
Ray Parks rcparks at sandia.gov
IDART Project Lead Voice:505-844-4024
IORTA Department Mobile:505-238-9359
http://www.sandia.gov/scada Fax:505-844-9641
http://www.sandia.gov/idart Pager:800-690-5288

Bill Eldridge

Backup solutions (was "stupidest question....")

Raymond Parks wrote:

> Russell Standish wrote:
>
>> One problem with this notion, is that Linux does not support write
>> access to NTFS (used for WindowsXP), except as a
>> "take-you-life-into-your-own-hands-you-have-been-warned" option.
>>
>> Restoration of data can therefore be difficult.
>>
>> This is not Linux's fault - MS does not publish the details of NTFS,
>> so is free to change things under to hood, with potentially
>> disasterous consequence for anyone trying to write to NTFS without
>> going through the MS software stack.
>>
>
> Actually, a colleague once talked to the writer of the NTFS
> experimental driver for Linux via email. As a filesystem, NTFS is
> relatively simple, but in implementation it is inherently unstable.
> Errors are unavoidable. That is why Windows takes so long to shutdown -
> it is going through the filesystem correcting the errors that have
> accumulated during a session. The Linux driver writer didn't have the
> time and energy to find out all the error cases and develop the corrections.
>
>

While I simply don't know with accuracy, this sounds like FUD on the
part of Linux fans.
NTFS is used on millions of mission critical machines, not to sound like
a marketing message,
and if you got errors every time there was a quick boot/power outage
(i.e. these accumulated
errors left over and not burned to disk), I can't imagine anyone using
NTFS or even Windows.

Also, I can't imagine NTFS being around for 11 years with various
upgrades and having this error
situation persist.

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Marcus G. Daniels-2

Backup solutions (was "stupidest question....")

Bill Eldridge wrote:
> Also, I can't imagine NTFS being around for 11 years with various
> upgrades and having this error
> situation persist.
Really brave people will try a ext2/3 plugin for Windows. That's your
best bet for losing data fast! (I know.)

I find that with a few machines around, I inevitably need a Windows
machine and mutual access to the data on that system from various
operating systems. SMB/CIFS being a universal client (and server), the
most robust and least frustrating configuration for me is a large
windows file server (on NTFS) and network clients via SMB. Samba is
such a nuisance to setup compared to just configuring shares in
Windows. It's not the fastest setup, but not all data access needs to
be super fast. (e.g. target for mirroring backups, compressed source
packages, etc.)

Anyway, on the topic of backups, I put in a vote for buying lots of
drives (they are dirt cheap) and having some at a remote location (e.g.
at work). Then it is just a matter of mirroring, in a waterfall type
arrangement, so to have different ages of backups. The last one being
to a remote location for a physical copy outside of your primary work
location. (Hey, gotta get every penny of value out of that broadband
subscription!)

Parks, Raymond

Backup solutions (was "stupidest question....")

In reply to this post by Bill Eldridge

Bill Eldridge wrote:
...
> While I simply don't know with accuracy, this sounds like FUD on the
> part of Linux fans.
> NTFS is used on millions of mission critical machines, not to sound like
> a marketing message,
> and if you got errors every time there was a quick boot/power outage
> (i.e. these accumulated
> errors left over and not burned to disk), I can't imagine anyone using
> NTFS or even Windows.

Dunno. I was just reporting the reason supplied by the person
responsible. I suspect the errors are small but cumulative, which would
allow for corrections as long as the next shutdown was normal. Thus, it
may take a lot of fast boot/power outage executions in a row for the
error correction to not catch up.

As for mission critical Windows boxen, I'm mostly familiar with NTFS
used in mission critical control systems, where it does not get rebooted
very often, now that the 45 day issue is resolved. I'm not sure it's
safe to say there are millions of mission critical machines running
Windows - there certainly are millions of Windows machines, but most of
them are not mission critical.

> Also, I can't imagine NTFS being around for 11 years with various
> upgrades and having this error
> situation persist.

My experience is that NTFS is more stable than it used to be. I can
remember early versions of NT 4.0 eating itself - literally overwriting
chunks of the winnt directory/folder. I haven't had that happen in a
long while.

--
Ray Parks rcparks at sandia.gov
IDART Project Lead Voice:505-844-4024
IORTA Department Mobile:505-238-9359
http://www.sandia.gov/scada Fax:505-844-9641
http://www.sandia.gov/idart Pager:800-690-5288

Bill Eldridge

Backup solutions (was "stupidest question....")

Raymond Parks wrote:

> Bill Eldridge wrote:
> ...
>
>> While I simply don't know with accuracy, this sounds like FUD on the
>> part of Linux fans.
>> NTFS is used on millions of mission critical machines, not to sound like
>> a marketing message,
>> and if you got errors every time there was a quick boot/power outage
>> (i.e. these accumulated
>> errors left over and not burned to disk), I can't imagine anyone using
>> NTFS or even Windows.
>>
>
> Dunno. I was just reporting the reason supplied by the person
> responsible. I suspect the errors are small but cumulative, which would
> allow for corrections as long as the next shutdown was normal. Thus, it
> may take a lot of fast boot/power outage executions in a row for the
> error correction to not catch up.
>

Let's put it this way - if you're running IT for Chase Manhattan or
Exxon, you're not waiting
around for errors, you're switching to a different system if yours can't
perform right. The Windows
server market wouldn't be growing if there were such basic errors. Sure,
you put UPS's up, etc.,
but the basic file system has to perform flawlessly, or you go to Unix
where it does.
> As for mission critical Windows boxen, I'm mostly familiar with NTFS
> used in mission critical control systems, where it does not get rebooted
> very often, now that the 45 day issue is resolved. I'm not sure it's
> safe to say there are millions of mission critical machines running
> Windows - there certainly are millions of Windows machines, but most of
> them are not mission critical.
>
>
Roughly 20-25 million servers worldwide, Windows servers nosing out Unix
servers in revenue in 2005
from 7.6 million servers that shipped. 2 million servers shipped in Q1
2006, Windows has 37% of the
revenue. 46,000 sites running SAP (typically many many servers), 2/3 of
all new SAP installations (sites) run Windows.
I can't tell you how many Windows servers exactly, but sounds like
millions, and pretty mission critical.

http://www.itjungle.com/two/two030106-story02.html
http://www.internetnews.com/stats/article.php/3608666
http://www.sap.com/company/press/press.epx?PressID=4520

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Carlos Gershenson

Backup solutions (was "stupidest question....")

> I can't tell you how many Windows servers exactly, but sounds like
> millions, and pretty mission critical.

Maybe that could be the start of the collapse of mankind... :-)

btw, some spam argued it would be today 06.06.06, the day of the
beast...

Best regards,

Carlos Gershenson...
Centrum Leo Apostel, Vrije Universiteit Brussel
Krijgskundestraat 33. B-1160 Brussels, Belgium
http://homepages.vub.ac.be/~cgershen/

?Tendencies tend to change...?

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Marko Rodriguez

Backup solutions (was "stupidest question....")

06.06.06 the end of the world!? Thats just plain rediculous. Anyone who
is anyone knows that the end of the world is December 21, 2012.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novelty_Theory

m.

On Tue, 2006-06-06 at 15:39 -0400, Carlos Gershenson wrote:

> > I can't tell you how many Windows servers exactly, but sounds like
> > millions, and pretty mission critical.
>
>
> Maybe that could be the start of the collapse of mankind... :-)
>
>
> btw, some spam argued it would be today 06.06.06, the day of the
> beast...
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Carlos Gershenson...
> Centrum Leo Apostel, Vrije Universiteit Brussel
> Krijgskundestraat 33. B-1160 Brussels, Belgium
> http://homepages.vub.ac.be/~cgershen/
>
>
> ?Tendencies tend to change...?
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Marko A. Rodriguez
CCS-3 Modeling, Algorithms and Informatics
Los Alamos National Laboratory
Phone +1 505 606 1691
Fax +1 505 665 6452
http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~okram